<!--quoteo(post=2065847:date=Jan 24 2013, 10:21 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 24 2013, 10:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now I'm not intimately familiar with the spark engine, but regardless of the engine, implementing anything to do with the controls is a trivial change. Depending on the architecture it may not be a quick process<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh? I don't think you know what you're talking about. Depending on the architecture it could be a simple task or it could be an absolute nightmare that requires refactoring everything with regards to player input. Seeing as it has not been changed as of yet, I speculate that there are numerous dependencies which rely on the hardcoded and limited number of available key binds. If this was not the case we would have seen a fix already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine's sticking to walls? Its a simple change, that they once again don't have the immediate time for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, depends how the physics system is architected. Changing this may have side effects which screw over physics for all entities. Testing physics changes are even harder as effects like these are almost always emergent and proper unit/integration testing for that is hard to achieve.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, the only acceptable issue one could have with this engine is the performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm.. responding to this will take the thread waay off topic.
<!--quoteo(post=2065878:date=Jan 24 2013, 02:18 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 24 2013, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is that it is strange to complain about the engine and the map design, then say 'oh TECHNICAL stuff I don't care about that' when someone points out the good bits of the engine and its effect on map design.
If the engine is easy to develop for, that means you get more stuff developed for it. If you don't understand how the engine is easy to develop for, that's unfortunate but not really necessary. So long as the people who use it do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To expand, the benefits of such an engine to ordinary players, development wise, should be abundantly clear to us especially, since those exact benefits are what spawned the original NS1, which we seem to so admire in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2065885:date=Jan 24 2013, 02:51 PM:name=DethGaunt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DethGaunt @ Jan 24 2013, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh? I don't think you know what you're talking about. Depending on the architecture it could be a simple task or it could be an absolute nightmare that requires refactoring everything with regards to player input. Seeing as it has not been changed as of yet, I speculate that there are numerous dependencies which rely on the hardcoded and limited number of available key binds. If this was not the case we would have seen a fix already.
Again, depends how the physics system is architected. Changing this may have side effects which screw over physics for all entities. Testing physics changes are even harder as effects like these are almost always emergent and proper unit/integration testing for that is hard to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game already has plenty of controls. Sure, maybe some peculiar internal architecture quirk means they can't simply stick another one in, but it isn't <i>difficult </i>to do. Worst case scenario is its leg work, but easy to do. So is it really something worth getting angry about, when it will be done the second they can spare the time?
The physics is the same. They already have tons of interactions plugged into the physics engine (which I'm guessing they outsourced?). It sure isn't difficult to add another one, and certainly not for something as simple as an angled surface. Once again, how convoluted it would be to get to that level of the engine is in question, but its still a simple task that will be addressed when they have the time.
The only things worth getting worked up about are things that potentially might not get fixed. Things which have incredibly difficult solutions if they have solutions at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2065886:date=Jan 24 2013, 12:52 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 24 2013, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game already has plenty of controls. Sure, maybe some peculiar internal architecture quirk means they can't simply stick another one in, but it isn't <i>difficult </i>to do. Worst case scenario is its leg work, but easy to do. So is it really something worth getting angry about, when it will be done the second they can spare the time?
The physics is the same. They already have tons of interactions plugged into the physics engine (which I'm guessing they outsourced?). It sure isn't difficult to add another one, and certainly not for something as simple as an angled surface. Once again, how convoluted it would be to get to that level of the engine is in question, but its still a simple task that will be addressed when they have the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So again, Chris, I feel like the advantages to a player are marginalized. Basically, you're asking me to have faith that it will pay out in the long-term. I've yet to reap any of those rewards and don't see why I should blindly expect to do so - you're freely admitting to this really. Whether or whether not there are advantages, they haven't been conferred to the consumer yet.
As for your expansion strofix, I don't follow at all. I might be being stupid but what are you trying to say? I don't see that many similarities with modding an engine to creating one from scratch or are you trying to say we'll get a great game out of NS2 that isn't NS2 (in which case, again: deferred and non-guaranteed benefit).
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I feel like reminding some folk of good old half-life 1. Did you check the initial version release on the cd? Did you check your latest won version? (we'll be fair and only include won). See the huge difference? The amount of bugs in that, by most folk I know including me, A rated game had tons upon tons of bugs. The bunnyjump was technically another bug/exploit and never fixed. (counting to won atleast) It was considered a exploit on most servers and banned from use.
And now the NS2 engine has some bugs.. and its not that old yet, so there is good chance they will eventually get fixed. I have never EVER seen a game without either bugs, sometimes even severe ones, or exploits, including the top A games.
I will say well done UWE and I will start sharpening my pitch forks when they post that they shall NEVER fix the bugs.
Back to the topic.. like I said before.. old stuff like elevators did unbalance the maps, but made it all the more fun. Fun maps are not always 100% balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2065971:date=Jan 24 2013, 07:19 PM:name=DethGaunt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DethGaunt @ Jan 24 2013, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for confirming my original suspicions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>It's not like I'm a formally educated and employed dev trained in game design and development and experienced in working with these components or anything. Oh wait yes I am...</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=2065990:date=Jan 24 2013, 08:29 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 24 2013, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for your expansion strofix, I don't follow at all. I might be being stupid but what are you trying to say? I don't see that many similarities with modding an engine to creating one from scratch or are you trying to say we'll get a great game out of NS2 that isn't NS2 (in which case, again: deferred and non-guaranteed benefit).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are looking for instant gratification and support up the wahoo, then why are you buying indie games? Sorry but, it sounds like triple A is more your domain...
<!--quoteo(post=2066013:date=Jan 24 2013, 09:26 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 24 2013, 09:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What a stupid statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, so you think it comes at no price? You think they get to be independent in their design and game direction, and suffer no consequences? You think that their limitations are not transferred to you as the buyer?
I'm sure the developers remember me, since I've been a part of this community longer than most. Even I, one of the most critical people of them, think for a first shot attempt at a custom engine, they did well. Do I disagree with a lot of the choice they've made? Sure do. Do I think LUA was a good idea? No way. I don't think people give them enough credit however, where its due. I may disagree, rail against, and throw tantrums at, but I personally am only critical of the things I love, and I love NS.
So, good work. Don't disappoint me.
I'm sure they already know it, but their focus really needs to be on engine performance and polish. The lack of access to simple console commands, no lastinv, real basic tools you would use every game are absent for no reason. If they keep it up, and deliver great updates and fixes, I will continue to ###### on these forums and defend this game to its death.
If I suddenly stop posting and you never see me again, you'll know they really screwed the pooch.
SpaceJew:
You're a fool. You make some good points, but you choose to express it in the most base and obtuse way conceivable. How can you expect the development team to give a ###### about anything you way when it is literal verbal garbage? Don't be such a derelict.
Cory: Don't even bother responding, because it brings you guys lower to their level and you guys are beyond that. I know it. Make sure you guys focus on engine performance, balance, and regular updates and this game will flourish.
I'm gonna tag myself back into this topic for a minute. First off everything Cory quoted spacejew on was entirely misinformed and just rude. He keeps calling them inept but I don't think he even understands what that word means. It means clumsy or having no skill which is clearly an ignorant statement. He also assumes that the engine was written by a bunch of 'modders' and 'tweakers'. Well as far as I know Max was the one who designed the engine and it started off as something else. And Max is actually more than just a 'modder' or 'tweaker'. He actually was the first employee at Lore Entertainment and was a key person behind the development of Titan Quest. Charlie (Flayra) actually worked on Empire Earth and a few other games as well. Cory is an accomplished artist who worked with Charlie at Stainless Steel studios. This information is all freely available online and actually on the NS2 wiki if you want to check it. My point is this, for him to say how inept and inexperienced they are is a true showing of just how ignorant he is. And the complete disrespect he directs towards them is infuriating since this is their passion. As a part time developer myself I know what it's like to work on something and put your heart and soul into it. To have some faceless jerk do nothing but insult them, is just pathetic honestly.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2065593:date=Jan 23 2013, 01:36 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 23 2013, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hardly a compelling case to those that actually play the game, really. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, here are more - The awesome spectator info - Various animation effects (e.g. IP, armory, alien structure flinch animations, arms lab, whip attack) - Many of the on-demand texturing effects (e.g. cloaking/camo, nanoshield effect, parasite effect, healing effect, bilebomb effect) - Dynamic lighting (not just for powernodes) - Tons of graphical options (e.g. ambient occlusion, atmospherics, shadows, bloom) - The higher quality of NS2 models, textures, general look
There is also the fact that UWE can more easily implemented many of the things brought over from gldsrc/NS1 when using their own engine they have full control over.
<!--quoteo(post=2066067:date=Jan 25 2013, 08:03 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 25 2013, 08:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright, here are more - The awesome spectator info<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that didn't get implemented into the commanding UI, definitely a weird choice here
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Various animation effects (e.g. IP, armory, alien structure flinch animations, arms lab, whip attack) - Many of the on-demand texturing effects (e.g. cloaking/camo, nanoshield effect, parasite effect, healing effect, bilebomb effect) - Dynamic lighting (not just for powernodes) - Tons of graphical options (e.g. ambient occlusion, atmospherics, shadows, bloom) - The higher quality of NS2 models, textures, general look<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
anyone who's serious about this game has set everything to minimum
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2066076:date=Jan 24 2013, 01:35 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 24 2013, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that didn't get implemented into the commanding UI, definitely a weird choice here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Didn't get implemented into the commanding UI, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127342&st=0&p=2064602&#entry2064602" target="_blank">yet</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=2066076:date=Jan 24 2013, 02:35 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 24 2013, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>anyone who's serious about this game has set everything to minimum </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll take, "things you pull out of your ass" for 400, Alex.
I thought the competitive pr0s always played these games at low for maXimum FPZ, regardless of made up sentences.
Comments
Eh? I don't think you know what you're talking about. Depending on the architecture it could be a simple task or it could be an absolute nightmare that requires refactoring everything with regards to player input. Seeing as it has not been changed as of yet, I speculate that there are numerous dependencies which rely on the hardcoded and limited number of available key binds. If this was not the case we would have seen a fix already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine's sticking to walls? Its a simple change, that they once again don't have the immediate time for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, depends how the physics system is architected. Changing this may have side effects which screw over physics for all entities. Testing physics changes are even harder as effects like these are almost always emergent and proper unit/integration testing for that is hard to achieve.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, the only acceptable issue one could have with this engine is the performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm.. responding to this will take the thread waay off topic.
If the engine is easy to develop for, that means you get more stuff developed for it. If you don't understand how the engine is easy to develop for, that's unfortunate but not really necessary. So long as the people who use it do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To expand, the benefits of such an engine to ordinary players, development wise, should be abundantly clear to us especially, since those exact benefits are what spawned the original NS1, which we seem to so admire in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2065885:date=Jan 24 2013, 02:51 PM:name=DethGaunt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DethGaunt @ Jan 24 2013, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh? I don't think you know what you're talking about. Depending on the architecture it could be a simple task or it could be an absolute nightmare that requires refactoring everything with regards to player input. Seeing as it has not been changed as of yet, I speculate that there are numerous dependencies which rely on the hardcoded and limited number of available key binds. If this was not the case we would have seen a fix already.
Again, depends how the physics system is architected. Changing this may have side effects which screw over physics for all entities. Testing physics changes are even harder as effects like these are almost always emergent and proper unit/integration testing for that is hard to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game already has plenty of controls. Sure, maybe some peculiar internal architecture quirk means they can't simply stick another one in, but it isn't <i>difficult </i>to do. Worst case scenario is its leg work, but easy to do. So is it really something worth getting angry about, when it will be done the second they can spare the time?
The physics is the same. They already have tons of interactions plugged into the physics engine (which I'm guessing they outsourced?). It sure isn't difficult to add another one, and certainly not for something as simple as an angled surface. Once again, how convoluted it would be to get to that level of the engine is in question, but its still a simple task that will be addressed when they have the time.
The only things worth getting worked up about are things that potentially might not get fixed. Things which have incredibly difficult solutions if they have solutions at all.
The physics is the same. They already have tons of interactions plugged into the physics engine (which I'm guessing they outsourced?). It sure isn't difficult to add another one, and certainly not for something as simple as an angled surface. Once again, how convoluted it would be to get to that level of the engine is in question, but its still a simple task that will be addressed when they have the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for confirming my original suspicions.
As for your expansion strofix, I don't follow at all. I might be being stupid but what are you trying to say? I don't see that many similarities with modding an engine to creating one from scratch or are you trying to say we'll get a great game out of NS2 that isn't NS2 (in which case, again: deferred and non-guaranteed benefit).
Did you check the initial version release on the cd? Did you check your latest won version? (we'll be fair and only include won).
See the huge difference? The amount of bugs in that, by most folk I know including me, A rated game had tons upon tons of bugs. The bunnyjump was technically another bug/exploit and never fixed. (counting to won atleast)
It was considered a exploit on most servers and banned from use.
And now the NS2 engine has some bugs.. and its not that old yet, so there is good chance they will eventually get fixed.
I have never EVER seen a game without either bugs, sometimes even severe ones, or exploits, including the top A games.
I will say well done UWE and I will start sharpening my pitch forks when they post that they shall NEVER fix the bugs.
Back to the topic.. like I said before.. old stuff like elevators did unbalance the maps, but made it all the more fun. Fun maps are not always 100% balanced.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>It's not like I'm a formally educated and employed dev trained in game design and development and experienced in working with these components or anything.
Oh wait yes I am...</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=2065990:date=Jan 24 2013, 08:29 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 24 2013, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for your expansion strofix, I don't follow at all. I might be being stupid but what are you trying to say? I don't see that many similarities with modding an engine to creating one from scratch or are you trying to say we'll get a great game out of NS2 that isn't NS2 (in which case, again: deferred and non-guaranteed benefit).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are looking for instant gratification and support up the wahoo, then why are you buying indie games? Sorry but, it sounds like triple A is more your domain...
Oh, so you think it comes at no price? You think they get to be independent in their design and game direction, and suffer no consequences? You think that their limitations are not transferred to you as the buyer?
You truly are naive.
So, good work. Don't disappoint me.
I'm sure they already know it, but their focus really needs to be on engine performance and polish. The lack of access to simple console commands, no lastinv, real basic tools you would use every game are absent for no reason. If they keep it up, and deliver great updates and fixes, I will continue to ###### on these forums and defend this game to its death.
If I suddenly stop posting and you never see me again, you'll know they really screwed the pooch.
SpaceJew:
You're a fool. You make some good points, but you choose to express it in the most base and obtuse way conceivable. How can you expect the development team to give a ###### about anything you way when it is literal verbal garbage? Don't be such a derelict.
Cory: Don't even bother responding, because it brings you guys lower to their level and you guys are beyond that. I know it. Make sure you guys focus on engine performance, balance, and regular updates and this game will flourish.
That's all I have to say.
Alright, here are more
- The awesome spectator info
- Various animation effects (e.g. IP, armory, alien structure flinch animations, arms lab, whip attack)
- Many of the on-demand texturing effects (e.g. cloaking/camo, nanoshield effect, parasite effect, healing effect, bilebomb effect)
- Dynamic lighting (not just for powernodes)
- Tons of graphical options (e.g. ambient occlusion, atmospherics, shadows, bloom)
- The higher quality of NS2 models, textures, general look
There is also the fact that UWE can more easily implemented many of the things brought over from gldsrc/NS1 when using their own engine they have full control over.
- The awesome spectator info<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that didn't get implemented into the commanding UI, definitely a weird choice here
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Various animation effects (e.g. IP, armory, alien structure flinch animations, arms lab, whip attack)
- Many of the on-demand texturing effects (e.g. cloaking/camo, nanoshield effect, parasite effect, healing effect, bilebomb effect)
- Dynamic lighting (not just for powernodes)
- Tons of graphical options (e.g. ambient occlusion, atmospherics, shadows, bloom)
- The higher quality of NS2 models, textures, general look<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
anyone who's serious about this game has set everything to minimum
Didn't get implemented into the commanding UI, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127342&st=0&p=2064602&#entry2064602" target="_blank">yet</a>.
</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll take, "things you pull out of your ass" for 400, Alex.
I thought the competitive pr0s always played these games at low for maXimum FPZ, regardless of made up sentences.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->LOCKED<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->