It might seem like extreme nitpicking, but no functioning elevators or other "futuristic 'aliens'" style base functions really limit the atmosphere & overall enjoyment of NS2. NS1 felt so technical and lots of maps felt like they could actually be an underwater facility or military installation simply because of elevators and large blast doors.
The doors & elevators actually being brushes tied to a func_door entity was an ingenious idea. All doors of all sizes & complexities could be created by the mapper instead of it being a model with an animation.
I distinctly remember a more eerie & spooky feeling in NS1 because of the heavy focus on atmosphere & being "alone in space". It did a goob job at capturing the alone feel of movies like "Alien" and "Aliens".
In that department, NS2 just seems generic and for me it is a very big deal and nearly game breaker. NS2's gameplay is good, and my hope since extremely early beta is that eventually they will implement these features to bring back the spooky atmosphere of NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2062124:date=Jan 18 2013, 04:27 AM:name=john_b)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (john_b @ Jan 18 2013, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might seem like extreme nitpicking, but no functioning elevators or other "futuristic 'aliens'" style base functions really limit the atmosphere & overall enjoyment of NS2. NS1 felt so technical and lots of maps felt like they could actually be an underwater facility or military installation simply because of elevators and large blast doors.
The doors & elevators actually being brushes tied to a func_door entity was an ingenious idea. All doors of all sizes & complexities could be created by the mapper instead of it being a model with an animation.
I distinctly remember a more eerie & spooky feeling in NS1 because of the heavy focus on atmosphere & being "alone in space". It did a goob job at capturing the alone feel of movies like "Alien" and "Aliens".
In that department, NS2 just seems generic and for me it is a very big deal and nearly game breaker. NS2's gameplay is good, and my hope since extremely early beta is that eventually they will implement these features to bring back the spooky atmosphere of NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know I didn't understand first why NS2 was so lacking compared to NS1 until I got to read some of the **** these so called "play-testers" have posted on the forum. This game is going down faster than the Titanic, a couple of clans in AUSNS just disbanded a couple of days ago.
<!--quoteo(post=2062123:date=Jan 17 2013, 07:26 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so ns2 maps use proper design, and ns1 maps were **** made up on the go. UWE should convert NS2 into a religions, sheep would follow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you say: be more open minded. What you mean: you should think what I think.
You don't have to look much further than a 1 ton rhino climbing up a rickety ladder to see that it wasn't exactly the best approach.
<!--quoteo(post=2062165:date=Jan 18 2013, 05:57 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't have to look much further than a 1 ton rhino climbing up a rickety ladder to see that it wasn't exactly the best approach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the NS2 wiki
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brPe6irthb8" target="_blank">The Onos is the largest and most physically powerful Kharaa lifeform. It is a gargantuan alien lifeform with a sharp rhinoceros-like horn and thick carapace plating on its head, while possessing a sparsely-armored and muscular <u>gorilla-like</u> body.</a>
The game is asymmetric so surely only marines being able to climb ladders only builds on that asymmetry.
All conversations aside, I think it's a real shame that we won't see multiple floors in maps due to the way in which the commander system works. It truly does restrict the variations in maps that we would like to see. The commander system has many flaws (read the commander experience thread in I&S) and being unable to deal with multiple levels is one of those. A zoom in/out functionality could resolve this or even a layer system where the commander can select the layer (level) he/she wishes to view.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Things such as toggleable, moving items (e.g. elevators or rotating doors) were certainty interesting parts of NS1 maps, but were hardly critical components of NS1. When UWE was deciding what features were critical to NS2 gameplay for the v1.0 release, those one happened to not make the list. That doesn't mean they won't ever be in NS2 (since moving trams already do exist outside the map in ns2_tram and in the ns2_refinery readyroom), but that they aren't as much a priority as other features. If I had the choice of getting a ns_bast rotating door or more performance improvements, I'd go with the performance improvements no contest.
<!--quoteo(post=2062211:date=Jan 17 2013, 10:12 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 17 2013, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I had the choice of getting a ns_bast rotating door or more performance improvements, I'd go with the performance improvements no contest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't that door removed in the end?
*edit* Yep, it was. Wow, V3 really destroyed NS1, what with all those new limiting mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=2062215:date=Jan 17 2013, 10:28 PM:name=john_b)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (john_b @ Jan 17 2013, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the best solution would have been to make ns2 on source engine. it'd probably be out by now & running better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By that logic every FPS that is ever made should also be made on the source engine. Scratch that, it can do top down as well, every game ever made should be made on the source engine.
<!--quoteo(post=2062216:date=Jan 17 2013, 01:31 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 17 2013, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By that logic every FPS that is ever made should also be made on the source engine. Scratch that, it can do top down as well, every game ever made should be made on the source engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhh sorry but BF3, a game that came out before NS2 looks better, runs better, supports more players, destructible terrain, massive levels etc. NS2 should be better. Respect UWE sticking it out this long, but I was just saying If I was in charge I'd have gone ahead with the source engine and saved myself massive amounts of time & money.
<!--quoteo(post=2062227:date=Jan 17 2013, 10:47 PM:name=john_b)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (john_b @ Jan 17 2013, 10:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uhh sorry but BF3, a game that came out before NS2 looks better, runs better, supports more players, destructible terrain, massive levels etc. NS2 should be better. Respect UWE sticking it out this long, but I was just saying If I was in charge I'd have gone ahead with the source engine and saved myself massive amounts of time & money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they had used the source engine it would have come out sooner! And would have had better and more consistent netcode! Omg they could even have used VAC to take care of that hacker problem!
Dice what were you thinking, use source next time11!
<!--quoteo(post=2062063:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:49 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can I ask you a question, just a honest question, I don't mean to insult you or anything. Have you actually played NS1? or are you just pretending to be?
Both aliens and marines travel MUCH faster in NS2 and yet you're saying the complete opposite. Fire up NS1 right now and see how slow marines and skulks are. Hell, marine didn't even have sprint back then. Would you like me to load up FRAPS and record you a video to make ur life a tad easier? I play ns1 every day anyway, it's no hassle for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From memory and watching a video just now, marines lack sprint but generally are more agile, slightly faster base speed I think, better sideways and backwards speed in combat, and combat is what matters when thinking about room size.
Aliens move generally a little faster in NS1, but there were not, as I recall, many limitations on maximum speed, which is sort of the point. Aliens could launch themselves around very quickly with blink/leap and cover huge distances, and marine jetpacks were significantly more maneuverable than their NS2 counterparts.
<!--quoteo(post=2062227:date=Jan 17 2013, 01:47 PM:name=john_b)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (john_b @ Jan 17 2013, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uhh sorry but BF3, a game that came out before NS2 looks better, runs better, supports more players, destructible terrain, massive levels etc. NS2 should be better. Respect UWE sticking it out this long, but I was just saying If I was in charge I'd have gone ahead with the source engine and saved myself massive amounts of time & money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice going Captain Hindsight. Where were you nearly a decade ago when the choice was so simple and crystal-clear?
BF3? Really? THAT'S your only point of reference in video games? Please don't criticize anything until you taste both ends of the spectrum. And NS2 certainly isn't anywhere near the bad end.
<!--quoteo(post=2062227:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:47 PM:name=john_b)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (john_b @ Jan 17 2013, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->saved massive amounts of time & money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have no idea what you're talking about. ns2 is a success. spark is a success. having a proprietary engine similar to source is an epic accomplishment and the returns on the time they invested will pay off tenfold. since release they've put more mappers, a couple more coders and an office manager on the books. i think for the first time in a long time, Charlie can breathe easier knowing that UWE can keep its doors open for years to come and not live check to check.
you haven't really been around long enough to truly appreciate what this development cycle has been like. you have no idea what you're talking about.
I appreciate the hard work that went into creating NS2, but I actually do agree with the idea of using the Source engine. I said it back when UWE announced that they were building their own engine. I'm not sure how much the license fee is, but UWE wouldn't now have to spend their time trying to fix performance issues and instead could have simply focused on new content and quite possibly minor bugs. They also wouldn't have had to build their own tools for creating maps, scripts, etc. The Source engine is built for small maps (like NS2's), is very moddable, and performs incredibly well. Perhaps the ultimate reason was that they just wanted to experience building their own game engine and NS2 provided them with an opportunity.
Anyway this is a little off topic, but I just wanted to provide my opinion on the subject. UWE built their own engine now, so we just have to learn to live with it.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo(post=2062233:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:56 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 17 2013, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they had used the source engine it would have come out sooner! And would have had better and more consistent netcode! Omg they could even have used VAC to take care of that hacker problem!
Dice what were you thinking, use source next time11!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> FYI Spark is using VAC and Spark is very fast to work with for smaller teams, even more so for UWE, since it is their own tech and they can add anything to the engine they want or need. Source is simply a very clunky engine and slow to work with...
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I am very VERY sure I saw enough posts explaining one of the big reasons for going homemade engine, was the entity limit. I mean, have you counted them? Even source would buckle under the entity count so far I read up on these very forums.
I dont think Source is clunky to work with - more that it required some major reworking to support some of the intended features of NS2, and development time of game logic would have been longer. Now if building Spark from the ground up proved to be the correct choice I dont think any of us can say that - only UWE. I suspect that NS2 would have been pretty different if built on Source. I do think that alot of issues that NS2 suffers from currently can be attributed to faults of Spark, however that really isnt UWE's fault as a majority of the engine was coded by a single person. Given enough time I do hope to see Spark reach the maturity that Source has - I can still remember the multiplayer in Source on release - the bugs that were in that engine on release were pretty massive, and that was on an engine that should have been built off of leasons learned from GldSrc.
<!--quoteo(post=2062124:date=Jan 17 2013, 09:27 AM:name=john_b)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (john_b @ Jan 17 2013, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I distinctly remember a more eerie & spooky feeling in NS1 because of the heavy focus on atmosphere & being "alone in space". It did a goob job at capturing the alone feel of movies like "Alien" and "Aliens".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the part I always disagree with. It's a multiplayer action/fps/rts, in other words a team game that moves quickly. There's not really supposed to be a feeling of being alone. I understand the nostalgia for some things in NS2, I still go back and play old games all the time. The best way I can compare these is by saying NS2 is a sequel kind of like X-Com: EU is a sequel. There are a lot of things that are better, but a lot of things are different and not in a bad way. What I would have hated is a sequel like the Megaman games or *shudder* COD. I love the old Megaman games but if you show people a screen from like 2-6 they won't be able to tell the difference. And that's how I look at this, the game play is there and that's what matters. Atmosphere doesn't really mean much to me.
<!--quoteo(post=2062127:date=Jan 17 2013, 09:34 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know I didn't understand first why NS2 was so lacking compared to NS1 until I got to read some of the **** these so called "play-testers" have posted on the forum. This game is going down faster than the Titanic, a couple of clans in AUSNS just disbanded a couple of days ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I'm new to play testing, and like most other play testers I don't agree with everything. As a matter of fact there are a few play testers that agreed with you on this topic. But no this game isn't going down at all, in fact it's about to get a huge content patch in case you hadn't read the news lately.
<!--quoteo(post=2062278:date=Jan 17 2013, 02:29 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 17 2013, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can still remember the multiplayer in Source on release - the bugs that were in that engine on release were pretty massive, and that was on an engine that should have been built off of leasons learned from GldSrc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> TF Source... Holy crap it was messed up when it first came out.
KanehJoin Date: 2012-12-11Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
the dearth of interesting rooms is less because of limitations and guidlines and more a conscious decision by mappers to use doodads or centerpieces as well as thinking of them as discreet 'rooms' instead of areas that just flow into each other. There are a ton of rooms in current maps that are essentially boxes with some corners cut off and then filled in with shipping containers or other boring objects.
ns_tanith is a great example of how rooms can be interesting, and the vast majority of the map can be ported into ns2 with the same feel. waste and satcom hives have amazing interplay with ramps and heights to make the room interesting and can still be cysted easily. same thing with overlook and powercore/neck in ns_veil. The rooms are dominated by these varying height changes that affect game play instead of walls plonked into the middle of rooms. Walls are dealt with the same way every time, varying heights and ramps aren't.
ns_eclipse meanwhile, is an amazing model of how an entire map just flows into itself. by having the entire map be thinner hallways, it creates many opportunities for vents going under or above and being a larger part of the map instead of just providing a shortcut for aliens. Station access alpha for example, aliens could come at you from vents under the RT, and climb over the railings to attack you. Even without vents, you can create interesting areas if you don't just put down a large rectangle and fill it in.
Again, I don't believe the engine or mechanics are to blame, as you can easily reproduce a lot of what made something like tanith or eclipse so fun to play. I believe the mappers just need to tweak rooms to play well as well as look nice. the new areas (departures) in ns2_docking are great examples of rooms that are very different and interesting.
don't bother, I said fire up NS1 and see for yourself. Everything moves much slower in NS1 compared to NS2. Again, I play NS1 everyday still, would you like me to FRAP up a video and do a side by side comparison?
Some of the OPs points are valid, but the way in which they are put forth is to imply that NS2 maps are fundamentally not as good, nor can ever be as good as NS1 maps because of those "restrictions". However, restrictions are necessary elements of any game design, and can come about from technical limitations, or deliberate game design choices. NS1 had a plethora of engine limitations that prevented maps from having the kind of complexity and detail that the mappers would have preferred to put in at the time, which very much dictated the final look, for better or worse.
In setting up the mapping guidelines, there were many lessons learned from NS1 that we applied in our thinking regarding the map design for NS2.
Level over level is problematic for commander view and should be limited in the amount and extents to which it occurs. We do not want to add a zoom and camera rotation for the commander as that just makes the role of commander far more complicated.
Large rooms are problematic for gameplay. It was the case in NS1, and remains the case in NS2. Range versus melee combat really starts to break down, commander mode view ends up being so high in the air that it becomes difficult to adequately see players and structures and equipment on the ground, and so much detail and cover has to be added to break up the space that it becomes quite a time consuming challenge to put together. That said we do try to push it as much as we can, say on Lavafalls on Refinery for example, and we'd like to be able to push it even further on future maps. That will require getting past some of the engine restrictions that are currently in place in regards to the viewing range, but hopefully those restrictions can be relaxed as the game becomes more optimized.
The hallway based layouts of NS1 were very confusing for new players. We chose to pursue a room based approach to NS2. There is of course still hallways meant to space the rooms apart, but rather then the -hallway, hallway, slightly opened up hallway section, hallway, room - we preferred a general -room, hallway, room, hallway approach, with each room ideally having a distinctive landmark theme to it, to make the areas of the map visually distinctive. This of course varies a great deal, with a lot of exceptions, but it was the general approach we took.
Having more defined themes for the spaces in NS2 was an important element for us. It makes for more believable environments, that feel more approachable and lived in, rather then the empty space castle look of NS1 maps. I'm not saying one approach is better or worse, but it is the direction we wanted to go in, and what is expected from the majority of modern games these days.
Elevators #1 are not an easy quick task by any means to get working properly in an engine, for a multiplayer game for some a variety of technical reasons. And in general, the elevators in NS1, while memorable, were often complained about, and slowed down the gameplay in a frustrating fashion. Eventually we'd like to try and bring them back, (and have additional stuff like moving trams) but in the grand scheme of all the ways we can improve the game, moving elevators does not rank very high on that list. Elevators, rotating doors, etc., were much like the Onos devour ability was in NS1...very memorable, but endlessly complained about.
An Onos moving up a ladder is just plain silly, and is hard to get away with in this day and age. Ladders are not a necessary part of making a map interesting, but we still encourage the placement of ladders in maps. We simply have specified that they should not be used for main routes, only for secondary routes, which I think is more then reasonable. Part of the reasons why there probably are not more areas with ladders on current NS2 maps is because they were not coded to work for much of the game development, and therefore not able to be tested properly, so were generally not used in the map design much.
Tech points serve a variety of functions, not least of which is to make it very clear to new players what the important, game winning structures are on both teams. Yes, it restricts hives to be on the same level as the techpoint, but that is for the best. For one thing it is a requirement for the addition of the alien commander, but for another it puts the hive front and center, making it much more visible and important. Many of those screenshot examples frankly looked quite silly. A large high ceiling room with an insignificant and small looking hive dangling from it, does not convey an impression of importance, and looks like an afterthought. Whereas, setting a hive up on a platform on a higher level, building the area around it, lighting it appropriately, such as the Hive in Generator on Docking, draws a players attention to it, and gives it a sense of purpose and importance.
That all said, here's a screenshot of one of the NS1 map areas that someone posted, next to an area on the new Descent map that is being worked on. Yes, there is more vertical height in the NS1 shot, but both spaces are still quite large, and the Descent shot still has more of the room not seen off to the left. We could probably push the ceiling and floor out more in that area, but there's not really much gameplay reason for doing so. There's level over level, probably ladders in there somewhere, and in general doesn't feel to me to be lacking anything that NS1 was able to do.
[attachment=36193:NS1vNS2.jpg]
Anyway, we plan on pushing against and hopefully moving beyond some of the existing restrictions with our future maps, and would encourage community mappers to do the same.
Well said, exactly what I was trying to say. To say that NS2 maps are not or will never be as good as NS1 maps because of so called "restrictions/limitations" is absurd.
Very interesting read, the hallway vs rooms comparison was probably the best part in vision difference between NS1 and NS2 maps and their feel.
In saying that I still completely disagree with the majority of the direction and I think it missed its mark, dumber/simple game play, mechanics and map layouts simply attracts dumber/simple players to the game and drive off the competitive ones looking for a niche in any particular skill ceiling, begs the question of why do something revolutionary like combining 2 completely different game types together but spend the majority of your efforts simplifying and stream lining everything else from the predecessor.
What that guy said about mappers just putting box rooms down and throwing objects in it also rings true, it feels that way especially in game, I play fade more than anything else in this game so far and it amazes me how much of my time is spent fighting the objects and map layout as opposed to the marine team, immersion is lost on me and I could really give a ###### why half the benches/seats/girders/railings exist except they get in the way a lot.
Stuff like aliens not using ladders/devour/RFK/web/focus/relos and the like, in AusNS at least, these opinions were majority held by constellation members and were often ridiculed for wanting to take features out of a game they simply didn't like or couldn't deal with, it's sad to see after 8ish years in my eyes that the consties finally got their way and managed to drop the skill ceiling in a niche game about 10 stories.
That new map is looking great tho.
Oh and the dudes talking about marine movement, skilled marines used bunny hopping onto elevation quite often to make up for the slower feel of the game, same as skulks/gorges/fades/onos bhopping but they didn't need elevation.
Its really annoying me when people try to compromise and say that "OP's points are valid but...". They aren't valid.
The limitations he mentions either do not exist, or are not new and have existed since NS1. There is absolutely nothing, not a single necessary feature, from an NS1 map that cannot be re-implemented in NS2.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2062423:date=Jan 18 2013, 02:46 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its really annoying me when people try to compromise and say that "OP's points are valid but...". They aren't valid.
The limitations he mentions either do not exist, or are not new and have existed since NS1. There is absolutely nothing, not a single necessary feature, from an NS1 map that cannot be re-implemented in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Water, elevators, weldables *tries to think of some more*
BTW While it's nice that you have mustered an opinion that is different to that of the OP, there's no reason to rage about it until people bow before the might of your point of view.
+1 Google OP. You left out the welding vents, welding to open new passage ways, welding on to open rt's. The limitations where chambers can be placed. Can not egg in vents. Ohh ya Siege mode.
It seems to be something in the water that alot of developers over the last couple of years have been drinking. Rather then just taking the first game of the series and improving the graphics and adding more content they try to make a new game that turns out to be half of what the previous version was.
Comments
NS1 felt so technical and lots of maps felt like they could actually be an underwater facility or military installation simply because of elevators and large blast doors.
The doors & elevators actually being brushes tied to a func_door entity was an ingenious idea. All doors of all sizes & complexities could be created by the mapper instead of it being a model with an animation.
I distinctly remember a more eerie & spooky feeling in NS1 because of the heavy focus on atmosphere & being "alone in space". It did a goob job at capturing the alone feel of movies like "Alien" and "Aliens".
In that department, NS2 just seems generic and for me it is a very big deal and nearly game breaker.
NS2's gameplay is good, and my hope since extremely early beta is that eventually they will implement these features to bring back the spooky atmosphere of NS1.
NS1 felt so technical and lots of maps felt like they could actually be an underwater facility or military installation simply because of elevators and large blast doors.
The doors & elevators actually being brushes tied to a func_door entity was an ingenious idea. All doors of all sizes & complexities could be created by the mapper instead of it being a model with an animation.
I distinctly remember a more eerie & spooky feeling in NS1 because of the heavy focus on atmosphere & being "alone in space". It did a goob job at capturing the alone feel of movies like "Alien" and "Aliens".
In that department, NS2 just seems generic and for me it is a very big deal and nearly game breaker.
NS2's gameplay is good, and my hope since extremely early beta is that eventually they will implement these features to bring back the spooky atmosphere of NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know I didn't understand first why NS2 was so lacking compared to NS1 until I got to read some of the **** these so called "play-testers" have posted on the forum. This game is going down faster than the Titanic, a couple of clans in AUSNS just disbanded a couple of days ago.
What you say: be more open minded.
What you mean: you should think what I think.
You don't have to look much further than a 1 ton rhino climbing up a rickety ladder to see that it wasn't exactly the best approach.
From the NS2 wiki
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brPe6irthb8" target="_blank">The Onos is the largest and most physically powerful Kharaa lifeform. It is a gargantuan alien lifeform with a sharp rhinoceros-like horn and thick carapace plating on its head, while possessing a sparsely-armored and muscular <u>gorilla-like</u> body.</a>
All conversations aside, I think it's a real shame that we won't see multiple floors in maps due to the way in which the commander system works. It truly does restrict the variations in maps that we would like to see. The commander system has many flaws (read the commander experience thread in I&S) and being unable to deal with multiple levels is one of those. A zoom in/out functionality could resolve this or even a layer system where the commander can select the layer (level) he/she wishes to view.
Wasn't that door removed in the end?
*edit*
Yep, it was. Wow, V3 really destroyed NS1, what with all those new limiting mechanics.
By that logic every FPS that is ever made should also be made on the source engine. Scratch that, it can do top down as well, every game ever made should be made on the source engine.
Uhh sorry but BF3, a game that came out before NS2 looks better, runs better, supports more players, destructible terrain, massive levels etc. NS2 should be better. Respect UWE sticking it out this long, but I was just saying If I was in charge I'd have gone ahead with the source engine and saved myself massive amounts of time & money.
If they had used the source engine it would have come out sooner! And would have had better and more consistent netcode!
Omg they could even have used VAC to take care of that hacker problem!
Dice what were you thinking, use source next time11!
Both aliens and marines travel MUCH faster in NS2 and yet you're saying the complete opposite. Fire up NS1 right now and see how slow marines and skulks are. Hell, marine didn't even have sprint back then. Would you like me to load up FRAPS and record you a video to make ur life a tad easier? I play ns1 every day anyway, it's no hassle for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From memory and watching a video just now, marines lack sprint but generally are more agile, slightly faster base speed I think, better sideways and backwards speed in combat, and combat is what matters when thinking about room size.
Aliens move generally a little faster in NS1, but there were not, as I recall, many limitations on maximum speed, which is sort of the point. Aliens could launch themselves around very quickly with blink/leap and cover huge distances, and marine jetpacks were significantly more maneuverable than their NS2 counterparts.
Nice going Captain Hindsight. Where were you nearly a decade ago when the choice was so simple and crystal-clear?
BF3? Really? THAT'S your only point of reference in video games? Please don't criticize anything until you taste both ends of the spectrum. And NS2 certainly isn't anywhere near the bad end.
you have no idea what you're talking about. ns2 is a success. spark is a success. having a proprietary engine similar to source is an epic accomplishment and the returns on the time they invested will pay off tenfold. since release they've put more mappers, a couple more coders and an office manager on the books. i think for the first time in a long time, Charlie can breathe easier knowing that UWE can keep its doors open for years to come and not live check to check.
you haven't really been around long enough to truly appreciate what this development cycle has been like. you have no idea what you're talking about.
Anyway this is a little off topic, but I just wanted to provide my opinion on the subject. UWE built their own engine now, so we just have to learn to live with it.
Omg they could even have used VAC to take care of that hacker problem!
Dice what were you thinking, use source next time11!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI Spark is using VAC and Spark is very fast to work with for smaller teams, even more so for UWE, since it is their own tech and they can add anything to the engine they want or need. Source is simply a very clunky engine and slow to work with...
I mean, have you counted them?
Even source would buckle under the entity count so far I read up on these very forums.
This is the part I always disagree with. It's a multiplayer action/fps/rts, in other words a team game that moves quickly. There's not really supposed to be a feeling of being alone. I understand the nostalgia for some things in NS2, I still go back and play old games all the time. The best way I can compare these is by saying NS2 is a sequel kind of like X-Com: EU is a sequel. There are a lot of things that are better, but a lot of things are different and not in a bad way. What I would have hated is a sequel like the Megaman games or *shudder* COD. I love the old Megaman games but if you show people a screen from like 2-6 they won't be able to tell the difference. And that's how I look at this, the game play is there and that's what matters. Atmosphere doesn't really mean much to me.
<!--quoteo(post=2062127:date=Jan 17 2013, 09:34 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know I didn't understand first why NS2 was so lacking compared to NS1 until I got to read some of the **** these so called "play-testers" have posted on the forum. This game is going down faster than the Titanic, a couple of clans in AUSNS just disbanded a couple of days ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I'm new to play testing, and like most other play testers I don't agree with everything. As a matter of fact there are a few play testers that agreed with you on this topic. But no this game isn't going down at all, in fact it's about to get a huge content patch in case you hadn't read the news lately.
TF Source... Holy crap it was messed up when it first came out.
ns_tanith is a great example of how rooms can be interesting, and the vast majority of the map can be ported into ns2 with the same feel. waste and satcom hives have amazing interplay with ramps and heights to make the room interesting and can still be cysted easily. same thing with overlook and powercore/neck in ns_veil. The rooms are dominated by these varying height changes that affect game play instead of walls plonked into the middle of rooms. Walls are dealt with the same way every time, varying heights and ramps aren't.
ns_eclipse meanwhile, is an amazing model of how an entire map just flows into itself. by having the entire map be thinner hallways, it creates many opportunities for vents going under or above and being a larger part of the map instead of just providing a shortcut for aliens. Station access alpha for example, aliens could come at you from vents under the RT, and climb over the railings to attack you. Even without vents, you can create interesting areas if you don't just put down a large rectangle and fill it in.
Again, I don't believe the engine or mechanics are to blame, as you can easily reproduce a lot of what made something like tanith or eclipse so fun to play. I believe the mappers just need to tweak rooms to play well as well as look nice. the new areas (departures) in ns2_docking are great examples of rooms that are very different and interesting.
don't bother, I said fire up NS1 and see for yourself. Everything moves much slower in NS1 compared to NS2. Again, I play NS1 everyday still, would you like me to FRAP up a video and do a side by side comparison?
In setting up the mapping guidelines, there were many lessons learned from NS1 that we applied in our thinking regarding the map design for NS2.
Level over level is problematic for commander view and should be limited in the amount and extents to which it occurs. We do not want to add a zoom and camera rotation for the commander as that just makes the role of commander far more complicated.
Large rooms are problematic for gameplay. It was the case in NS1, and remains the case in NS2. Range versus melee combat really starts to break down, commander mode view ends up being so high in the air that it becomes difficult to adequately see players and structures and equipment on the ground, and so much detail and cover has to be added to break up the space that it becomes quite a time consuming challenge to put together. That said we do try to push it as much as we can, say on Lavafalls on Refinery for example, and we'd like to be able to push it even further on future maps. That will require getting past some of the engine restrictions that are currently in place in regards to the viewing range, but hopefully those restrictions can be relaxed as the game becomes more optimized.
The hallway based layouts of NS1 were very confusing for new players. We chose to pursue a room based approach to NS2. There is of course still hallways meant to space the rooms apart, but rather then the -hallway, hallway, slightly opened up hallway section, hallway, room - we preferred a general -room, hallway, room, hallway approach, with each room ideally having a distinctive landmark theme to it, to make the areas of the map visually distinctive. This of course varies a great deal, with a lot of exceptions, but it was the general approach we took.
Having more defined themes for the spaces in NS2 was an important element for us. It makes for more believable environments, that feel more approachable and lived in, rather then the empty space castle look of NS1 maps. I'm not saying one approach is better or worse, but it is the direction we wanted to go in, and what is expected from the majority of modern games these days.
Elevators #1 are not an easy quick task by any means to get working properly in an engine, for a multiplayer game for some a variety of technical reasons. And in general, the elevators in NS1, while memorable, were often complained about, and slowed down the gameplay in a frustrating fashion. Eventually we'd like to try and bring them back, (and have additional stuff like moving trams) but in the grand scheme of all the ways we can improve the game, moving elevators does not rank very high on that list. Elevators, rotating doors, etc., were much like the Onos devour ability was in NS1...very memorable, but endlessly complained about.
An Onos moving up a ladder is just plain silly, and is hard to get away with in this day and age. Ladders are not a necessary part of making a map interesting, but we still encourage the placement of ladders in maps. We simply have specified that they should not be used for main routes, only for secondary routes, which I think is more then reasonable. Part of the reasons why there probably are not more areas with ladders on current NS2 maps is because they were not coded to work for much of the game development, and therefore not able to be tested properly, so were generally not used in the map design much.
Tech points serve a variety of functions, not least of which is to make it very clear to new players what the important, game winning structures are on both teams. Yes, it restricts hives to be on the same level as the techpoint, but that is for the best. For one thing it is a requirement for the addition of the alien commander, but for another it puts the hive front and center, making it much more visible and important. Many of those screenshot examples frankly looked quite silly. A large high ceiling room with an insignificant and small looking hive dangling from it, does not convey an impression of importance, and looks like an afterthought. Whereas, setting a hive up on a platform on a higher level, building the area around it, lighting it appropriately, such as the Hive in Generator on Docking, draws a players attention to it, and gives it a sense of purpose and importance.
That all said, here's a screenshot of one of the NS1 map areas that someone posted, next to an area on the new Descent map that is being worked on. Yes, there is more vertical height in the NS1 shot, but both spaces are still quite large, and the Descent shot still has more of the room not seen off to the left. We could probably push the ceiling and floor out more in that area, but there's not really much gameplay reason for doing so. There's level over level, probably ladders in there somewhere, and in general doesn't feel to me to be lacking anything that NS1 was able to do.
[attachment=36193:NS1vNS2.jpg]
Anyway, we plan on pushing against and hopefully moving beyond some of the existing restrictions with our future maps, and would encourage community mappers to do the same.
--Cory
In saying that I still completely disagree with the majority of the direction and I think it missed its mark, dumber/simple game play, mechanics and map layouts simply attracts dumber/simple players to the game and drive off the competitive ones looking for a niche in any particular skill ceiling, begs the question of why do something revolutionary like combining 2 completely different game types together but spend the majority of your efforts simplifying and stream lining everything else from the predecessor.
What that guy said about mappers just putting box rooms down and throwing objects in it also rings true, it feels that way especially in game, I play fade more than anything else in this game so far and it amazes me how much of my time is spent fighting the objects and map layout as opposed to the marine team, immersion is lost on me and I could really give a ###### why half the benches/seats/girders/railings exist except they get in the way a lot.
Stuff like aliens not using ladders/devour/RFK/web/focus/relos and the like, in AusNS at least, these opinions were majority held by constellation members and were often ridiculed for wanting to take features out of a game they simply didn't like or couldn't deal with, it's sad to see after 8ish years in my eyes that the consties finally got their way and managed to drop the skill ceiling in a niche game about 10 stories.
That new map is looking great tho.
Oh and the dudes talking about marine movement, skilled marines used bunny hopping onto elevation quite often to make up for the slower feel of the game, same as skulks/gorges/fades/onos bhopping but they didn't need elevation.
The limitations he mentions either do not exist, or are not new and have existed since NS1. There is absolutely nothing, not a single necessary feature, from an NS1 map that cannot be re-implemented in NS2.
The limitations he mentions either do not exist, or are not new and have existed since NS1. There is absolutely nothing, not a single necessary feature, from an NS1 map that cannot be re-implemented in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Water, elevators, weldables
*tries to think of some more*
BTW
While it's nice that you have mustered an opinion that is different to that of the OP, there's no reason to rage about it until people bow before the might of your point of view.
It seems to be something in the water that alot of developers over the last couple of years have been drinking. Rather then just taking the first game of the series and improving the graphics and adding more content they try to make a new game that turns out to be half of what the previous version was.
Hopefully Crytek redeems themselves on Feb 18.