I think the biggest problem is poeple are still new and dunno how to play. Thus i say leave them the way they are, because then you always know, when you have a noob as commander. Of course it does not change the fact they are mostly a loss of ressources, but therefor you got mines early games.
<!--quoteo(post=2065198:date=Jan 22 2013, 10:38 PM:name=Xao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xao @ Jan 22 2013, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 sentry Damage: 20 (max) Duration: 5 seconds (ramp-up) Interval: 0.5 seconds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Note quite. Best to open up the balance.lua file since stuff gets changed all the time. Here's the current data:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kSentryAttackDamageType = kDamageType.Normal kSentryAttackBaseROF = .15 kSentryAttackRandROF = 0.0 kSentryAttackBulletsPerSalvo = 1 kConfusedSentryBaseROF = 2.0 kSentryDamage = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->There is no damage ramp up, it's a craptastic 5 damage. I won't get into the tracking aspect, as well as the time to lock on target.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This entire thread in regards to sentry changes/electro res reeks of the stupidity in the EXO thread, you're judging the effectiveness of something based on the worst cases of it being used in public play<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->99.9% of games *are* public play.
Sentries are garbage. They are almost universally considered garbage by the community. Dropping sentry farms (without some really good convincing to the team) will result in commander ejection. Heck I've seen admins kick people from the server for it. (I kid you not, but I also do NOT support those kinds of actions. Eject is fine, but not kick.)
If sentries were really viable <b>PEOPLE WOULD USE THEM</b>. Do we really think that the community at large has some kind of blind hatred of sentries? Seriously? If they were viable, <b>PEOPLE WOULD USE THEM</b>. They don't. Shall I sum it up again?
-They cost too much for what they offer -They can only be placed in a tiny area -They have a huge Achilles heel with the easykill sentry battery -They too expensive when you need them (early game) -They are useless when you can afford them (late game) -They don't track upwards, so lerks get a free pass above them -They have a small FOV and a huge blind spot -An entire nest can be killed with only TWO bile bombs
I could go on and on, but it's pointless. You can spin this all you like, but the vast majority of players have spoken, and they rightfully feel sentries are a waste of time and resources. I agree with them. You can postulate about their purportedly amazing characteristics, but no one is buying it.
Anyway, no point in going around in circles since I *AGREE* with you in that sentry changes are not the way to address imbalance in the game.
Sentries need to have more range, or more damage for them to be useful for their current res.
Probably both.
I know this is an asymmetrical game, but...
Why can the alien team put eleventy billion bombard whips in any given room, but the marines can only put 3 turrets that a single non-retarded skulk can take out?
<!--quoteo(post=2065222:date=Jan 23 2013, 12:18 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 23 2013, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries need to have more range, or more damage for them to be useful for their current res.
Probably both.
I know this is an asymmetrical game, but...
Why can the alien team put eleventy billion bombard whips in any given room, but the marines can only put 3 turrets that a single non-retarded skulk can take out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because whips can all be wiped out in 5 seconds with 1 or 2 arcs from another room where they and the marines are safe and dont have to expose themselves to destroy the whips.
Aliens have to get into the firing line or atleast have LOS for bile bomb....something that arcs dont need.
<!--quoteo(post=2065198:date=Jan 22 2013, 08:38 PM:name=Xao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xao @ Jan 22 2013, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 LMG Damage: 10 Rate of Fire: 10 rounds/sec (And all 10 of these rounds did rego)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is also incorrect.. it was closer to 18 r/s - 1081 rpm. (<a href="http://imageshack.us/a/img237/7928/lmgrofal1.gif" target="_blank">and, depended on frame rate</a>)
<!--quoteo(post=2065232:date=Jan 22 2013, 06:53 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 22 2013, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because whips can all be wiped out in 5 seconds with 1 or 2 arcs from another room where they and the marines are safe and dont have to expose themselves to destroy the whips.
Aliens have to get into the firing line or atleast have LOS for bile bomb....something that arcs dont need.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whips also do 50 damage.
If Ink was more useful, arcs would be a non-issue.
Does anyone know UWEs stance on "hard counters"?
Edit: Also: Aliens have whips waaaay before marines have ARCs.
<!--quoteo(post=2065274:date=Jan 23 2013, 04:36 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 23 2013, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065274"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whips also do 50 damage.
If Ink was more useful, arcs would be a non-issue.
Does anyone know UWEs stance on "hard counters"?
Edit: Also: Aliens have whips waaaay before marines have ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The damage whips do is not relevent as they can be taken out without any opportunity to inflict damage at all using arcs.
As amoral said, economy wise a room full of whips take a lot of res....marines will have arcs well before or at the very least at the same time these large numbers of whips are seen.
I think considering most of marine tech is a hard counter to alien they have a slight fondness. Obs counters cloaking. Weapons upgrades counter carapce. FT counters umbra and spores Arcs counter large numbers of structures in a very short and economical way.
There are a few already in the game, but dont expect that means they are in a hurry to add more in. Its something they talk about not wanting to do more of if possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2065106:date=Jan 22 2013, 05:14 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Jan 22 2013, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is your L2P right there.
Most pubs build RTs and when they encounter some resistance like a single gorge or infestation, they just stop and start camping and waiting for the sky to fall or something. If you watch any form of half-decent (not even competitive game, just half-decent), you will notice that the teams never stop, unless it's very situational like waiting for a couple res ticks for a phase gate or something. There is constant pressure, constant pushing, constant activity. Nobody sits and waits. They go and kill stuff.
Therein is the essence of NS2 and the failure of pubs. The marine's job is NOT to defend RTs. If you run around defending RTs, you WILL lose. Marines can NOT do that effectively. Perhaps once jetpacks are out, one person can be dedicated to keeping the RTs clean in the "back," but jetpacks are mid-late game.
The essence of early game is massive, concentrated, organized PRESSURE. If you haven't killed a gorge or alien RT on a pub by about 2:00 you aren't likely to win - unless, of course, the alien team is just as terrible, which is also, unfortunately, commonly seen.
The way to "pull" aliens off your RTs is to MAKE them play defensively around their infested areas. Make it so if they have one skulk killing your RT in the back, they lose an RT of their own, or even a hive.
Unfortunately, that requires organization and coordination on marine side, as well as aiming and positioning skills from EVERY player of the marine team, as well as an excellent commander - a combination that you hardly ever see on pubs. Cue "no commander" for the first 1-2 minutes of a game, etc., and you've got a game that most newer players think "favors aliens."
There is no problem with the balancing of the game. Sentries, electrify, resource-node-explode, mining RTs, etc. etc. etc. are all suggestions to "fix" side-effects of a glowing problem in a lot of the current NS2 games I've played: LACK OF MARINE PRESSURE EARLY GAME.
The real problem is that aliens are actually HORRIBLY under-powered. If you have a clockwork marine team where everyone is above-decent in shooting and positioning skill, aliens get simply ripped to shreds early game - because there's only so much a skulk can do to evade a ranged weapon, especially in early game when leap is not up.
I'm not sure it was worth my time to reiterate this for the 1000th time on these forums, but yeah - good luck with your "tower defense mod."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with HeatSurge. He is right with everything he wrote in this post. But you can't say "There is no problem. The players are just to stupid for the game."
If the game lures you into playing it the wrong way, it isn't the fault of the players. It also can't be right, that you need much more coordination on the marine team than on the alien team. 3 onos rushing the base are unbeatable. And this is the climax of teamplay you need at the alien team. At the same time, marines need to play together and with absolute map awareness the whole time. This isn't asymmetry. This is imbalance in the demand of teamplay. And this is exactly why marines lose more often than marines.
Have read the whole thread now. I also like the idea about electrifying, its a good early game method, if its not too expensive to upgrade. And yeah, please remove those turrets completely out of the game, they are just useless right now.
@Omar - The Wire and HeatSurge: Nice that you have those really standing out avatars, so it was easy to skip all your posts after I read the first one of you.
The fundamental problem with sentries(and electrify) is that they are security blankets for unconfident comms. Same rookie mistake that you see in every RTS - when an inexperienced player feels pressured, they turtle until they feel safe, and they hope to win the game without ever feeling exposed. The result in NS2 is a long drawn out turtlefest that marines inevitably lose(as they should). UWE knew this which is why they erred on the side of sentries being too weak so as not to encourage this playstyle, but it wasn't enough, it happens anyway. Because inexperienced comms also don't know that sentries are weak.
I still think that sentries should be a deployable item for marines, like mines. Remove them as a res sink for the commander so that he can focus his money on things that might help his team win. Then if players on the field feel that sentries would be helpful they can spend their PRes on it.
<!--quoteo(post=2065521:date=Jan 23 2013, 11:38 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 23 2013, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fundamental problem with sentries(and electrify) is that they are security blankets for unconfident comms. Same rookie mistake that you see in every RTS - when an inexperienced player feels pressured, they turtle until they feel safe, and they hope to win the game without ever feeling exposed. The result in NS2 is a long drawn out turtlefest that marines inevitably lose(as they should). UWE knew this which is why they erred on the side of sentries being too weak so as not to encourage this playstyle, but it wasn't enough, it happens anyway. Because inexperienced comms also don't know that sentries are weak.
I still think that sentries should be a deployable item for marines, like mines. Remove them as a res sink for the commander so that he can focus his money on things that might help his team win. Then if players on the field feel that sentries would be helpful they can spend their PRes on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because i'd drop one at every single rt, and the aliens would absolutely hate me for it. you're talking about deterrence/delayance/area of denial from pres, and they call mines "borderline-op."
I would like input on this; I've tried it once and it paid off.
I built only robo at base and ordered all but 1-2 rines downfield to the logical 2nd hive and put Sentries down (backups went to opposite side of board tech point and skipped RTs). Aliens took it out after eventually and I recycled but it cost them a lot of skulks (eggs/time). Tech point on the other side of the board becomes "Base" where armory and obs go to do research (and second CC and IP depending on how things go). The aliens spend so much time securing the 2nd hive room (and rt) they have to drop it asap after they reclaim it, which made it easy to shoot down by walking the entire team there at exactly 5:30.
The sentries need to do 2-3 bullets worth of damage to skulks to make your bad marines good enough to get 1:1 KDR and keep the pressure up. Aliens were never able to fight on our side of the map because their RTs and second hive were in constant jeopardy.
Are sentries really expensive? In this game it worked out and we killed 10-15 skulks before they could take out all the rines and I'd recycle. A forward obs only lets marines know roughly where to shoot, it doesn't make them good shots, for 5 more res you can cushion the bad aim keep pressure up, which is always the key to victory.
Edit: I intend to try this more and see if it holds up with better rines against better aliens. Sentries only mileage is early game where skulk HP is low or mid-late to keep khamm's from cyst spamming, so you might as well rush them if you're going to bother.
<!--quoteo(post=2065528:date=Jan 23 2013, 02:06 PM:name=amoral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amoral @ Jan 23 2013, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because i'd drop one at every single rt, and the aliens would absolutely hate me for it. you're talking about deterrence/delayance/area of denial from pres, and they call mines "borderline-op."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even if there was no per-player limit, a single sentry is useless unsupported. I'd rather have 3 mines on my RT than a sentry, at least the mines might kill an alien who isn't paying attention.
<!--quoteo(post=2065327:date=Jan 23 2013, 04:54 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 23 2013, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the game lures you into playing it the wrong way, it isn't the fault of the players. It also can't be right, that you need much more coordination on the marine team than on the alien team. 3 onos rushing the base are unbeatable. And this is the climax of teamplay you need at the alien team. At the same time, marines need to play together and with absolute map awareness the whole time. This isn't asymmetry. This is imbalance in the demand of teamplay. And this is exactly why marines lose more often than marines [I assume you mean aliens here].<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's actually a point where the alien team requires a lot more coordination and skill than the marine team. When both teams are mildly competent and have essentially split the map (usually the marines claim a little bit more, as per their nature when played properly), alien teams in pubs are often completely clueless on how to proceed. I've seen plenty of marine teams win from this position because they turtle on those tech points and rts very easily, get jps and exos and w3/a3 and arcs, and then run through the map annihilating everything. The alien team in this position needs to realize what's happening ahead of time, coordinate the ratio of lifeforms they are going to use, decide where to attack, and then have to use all those lifeforms well. The exo/jp/arc train with only a couple good shooters simply walks up to bases and crushes them with little effort.
<!--quoteo(post=2065532:date=Jan 23 2013, 12:11 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 23 2013, 12:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if there was no per-player limit, a single sentry is useless unsupported. I'd rather have 3 mines on my RT than a sentry, at least the mines might kill an alien who isn't paying attention.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you'd have to go over there anyway to reset your mines
<!--quoteo(post=2065106:date=Jan 22 2013, 11:14 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Jan 22 2013, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is your L2P right there.
Most pubs build RTs and when they encounter some resistance like a single gorge or infestation, they just stop and start camping and waiting for the sky to fall or something. If you watch any form of half-decent (not even competitive game, just half-decent), you will notice that the teams never stop, unless it's very situational like waiting for a couple res ticks for a phase gate or something. There is constant pressure, constant pushing, constant activity. Nobody sits and waits. They go and kill stuff.
Therein is the essence of NS2 and the failure of pubs. The marine's job is NOT to defend RTs. If you run around defending RTs, you WILL lose. Marines can NOT do that effectively. Perhaps once jetpacks are out, one person can be dedicated to keeping the RTs clean in the "back," but jetpacks are mid-late game.
The essence of early game is massive, concentrated, organized PRESSURE. If you haven't killed a gorge or alien RT on a pub by about 2:00 you aren't likely to win - unless, of course, the alien team is just as terrible, which is also, unfortunately, commonly seen.
The way to "pull" aliens off your RTs is to MAKE them play defensively around their infested areas. Make it so if they have one skulk killing your RT in the back, they lose an RT of their own, or even a hive.
Unfortunately, that requires organization and coordination on marine side, as well as aiming and positioning skills from EVERY player of the marine team, as well as an excellent commander - a combination that you hardly ever see on pubs. Cue "no commander" for the first 1-2 minutes of a game, etc., and you've got a game that most newer players think "favors aliens."
There is no problem with the balancing of the game. Sentries, electrify, resource-node-explode, mining RTs, etc. etc. etc. are all suggestions to "fix" side-effects of a glowing problem in a lot of the current NS2 games I've played: LACK OF MARINE PRESSURE EARLY GAME.
The real problem is that aliens are actually HORRIBLY under-powered. If you have a clockwork marine team where everyone is above-decent in shooting and positioning skill, aliens get simply ripped to shreds early game - because there's only so much a skulk can do to evade a ranged weapon, especially in early game when leap is not up.
I'm not sure it was worth my time to reiterate this for the 1000th time on these forums, but yeah - good luck with your "tower defense mod."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Though I was more flippant in my earlier post, this is basically what I was trying to point out.
The problem with marine W/L rates is that marines don't know how to be agressive and successful at the same time.
They are either successful at defending some small patch of ground with a natural choke-point, or they are successful at defending with sentries at their back, but they are unsuccessful when being agressive. Then the sentries become the crutch and ultimately they become the team. Soon, what you are doing is "walking" sentry fields of fire forward and the marines are there providing covering fire to the sentries. No matter how you mod sentries, this playstyle will lose unless you buff sentries so far that there's no reason to play the game anymore.
Simple fact is that until marines get better at moving, covering fire, evading detection, RT hunting, and flitting around like a hummingbird in a JP, (in that order) they are likely to lose most of their games. Buffing sentries will not flatten the learning curve on these activities, it will make it much harder to learn them in fact because the sentries start doing the heavy lifting.
If UWE removed sentries from the game, marine wins would start coming faster. I'm almost positive about this.
Now, if you want a constructive post on HOW to modify sentries to make them useful, here is my honest and legitimate answer.
* Remove battery packs * Remove placement limitations per room (more than 3 SG's would be fine) * Sentries require 2 CC's to build * Sentries no longer dependent on robotics factory * Sentries buildable on walls, ceilings, floors * Purchased for 10 P-Res from advanced armory * Unlimited sight range and nearly 360 Degrees of motion tracking on both x and Y axis. (No effective blind spot from melee range, but not perfect coverage either) * SG's self repair when not "in combat" at some marginal rate * Slower tracking speed (skulk run-by from "medium" range should cause injury, but not death... lerks could hit/run but not snipe at them from a great distance without great harm) *** Modify damage properties after extensive testing
Reasoning : Sentries in the early game slow down tech badly for marine teams. Mines already do "stay behind" defense well enough when players use them. This means that the proper time for sentries is when you already control most of the map and you have a problem defending a sprawling infrastructure with fewer marines available for specific defense duty once Mines are no longer effective stay-behind defense. Changing when they are available, and making them deploy-able by marines makes their use more democratic (the commander can't cripple the team's chances of winning by trying to turtle) while making any kind of "SG rush" parallel to other more useful tech paths.
New build options encourage the use of JP's to build in out of the way locations, which further encourages a more optimal tech path while making that tech path more interesting.
Rookie marines will learn basic skills rather than being confused about the role of SG's in the strategic sense.
SG tracking and range buffs amplify the need for creative placement further while making SG capabilities more intuitive. Also removes most of the problems that might arise from accidental or suboptimal placement.
SG purchase price reflects the relative worth of the device for the time that it enters the game.
Tracking speed/damage properties should make them effective at defending RT's and Tech points while not actually denying aliens the use of a critical movement route past them.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2065274:date=Jan 22 2013, 09:36 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 22 2013, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065274"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone know UWEs stance on "hard counters"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoting from the <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit?pli=1#heading=h.v1cv4zucq1o5" target="_blank">high-level design doc</a>: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Counters
NS2 favors “soft†counters over “hard†counters. The idea of one technology, unit or ability easily defeating another one works better in an RTS than an FPS. It’s also not very interesting. So whenever possible, NS2 aims to have certain abilities be stronger against other abilities, but still allowing for player skill to close the gap.
For the same reason, NS2 is first a shooter, second a strategy game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally, I think hard counters would be helpful in reducing the huge skill gap I frequently see in NS2 matches. It would also make proper scouting and tech tree research more important.
<!--quoteo(post=2065569:date=Jan 23 2013, 04:08 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 23 2013, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quoting from the <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit?pli=1#heading=h.v1cv4zucq1o5" target="_blank">high-level design doc</a>:
Personally, I think hard counters would be helpful in reducing the huge skill gap I frequently see in NS2 matches. It would also make proper scouting and tech tree research more important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say that as if there wouldn't be a huge skill gap in game knowledge and strategy if tech and counters were more complex. If anything I think that's a bigger hurdle for new player than twitch skills, and something most players of NS2 would probably rather not think about.
So many people want to scrap sentries because they are so useless. That just seems stupid to me. All the work put into creating them would go to waste. Something can be done so they are not overpowered and not useless. There have been many ideas. Some much more drastic than others. I still think some minor tweaks to them can be done in a positive way.
Going back to the original post, fine, scrap the mod idea. I also think there is merit to the idea that sentries were never intended for "set and forget". They can stay in that role and not suck if some changes are made to them. But should they be used to help the "aliens win too much" problem. I am not so sure now.
I am still holding by my guns that this game has a serious balance issue. Most suggestions that people make get shot down and lit on fire on this forum. The implication then becomes, "LEAVE THE GAME AS IS". That is wrong. The statistics show its wrong. My individiaul gaming experience and that of many others show its wrong. "LEAVE THE GAME AS IS" is a bad idea. That means something needs to change. There are far too many people on this forum saying ideas suck. If they suck come up with a better idea then. Some of you have, most have not.
As far peoeple who think L2P is the problem. How long does it take to L2P then? If it takes a lifetime (if ever) to master marines and a few weeks for aliens, that's a probem. It makes for many bad, one sided, no fun games. Isn't that the goal, to have fun? I know this balance problem so well now I can see it 5 minutes into the game. Not very fun.
What if sentry batteries were an upgrade from the Robo that equiped certain marine structures with said batteries so that the Comm could "attach" sentries to those structures
Sentries would be an attachment to buildings Sentry Batteries would be removed as an object (and power packs brought back?) Sentries would keep current damage values and tracking (to balance increased "battery" heath) Sentries would be given 360 targeting (to balance only have less sentries per "battery") Sentry Battery research costs 15 res Each sentry costs 10 res This setup would not require marines to build as the structures would already be active -- Nanites would allow the sentry to be activated from the existing structure after a few seconds of auto-build time
Only certain structures can have sentries (for spam prevention):
The guns would be ties into the structures power supply, meaning that if the power in the room goes down, so does the sentry.
This keeps turrets in line as deterrents rather than area denial, and gives marines more time to react before losing res (powernode = free, Extarctor = 10 res)
<!--quoteo(post=2065619:date=Jan 23 2013, 04:47 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 23 2013, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am still holding by my guns that this game has a serious balance issue. Most suggestions that people make get shot down and lit on fire on this forum. The implication then becomes, "LEAVE THE GAME AS IS". That is wrong. The statistics show its wrong. My individiaul gaming experience and that of many others show its wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The statistics don't tell you <i>why</i> aliens win more. I think you're the one implicating things, if anyone is. I can tell you one thing with absolute certainty. Sentry turrets are not the reason Aliens win more, either through uselessness or usefulness. The reason <i>why</i> they win more is the subject of debate, and if someone disagree's with me on the above that's fine but changing sentries to anything less than a skulk annihilator probably won't make a difference either way.
I think a lot of people want sentries to be buffed because the actual Marines players can't hit diddly or because they want to make <i>sure</i> it takes a concentrated effort for the Aliens to take a base that has no players in it. This would pretty much result in an aliens loss, as this would allow Marines to make a second-hive assault a near zero risk proposition with even close to even teams.
Either the Aliens repel the Marines and gain little strategic value for it besides surviving a little longer, or they split their forces which will likely result in a total loss of the second hive, or they all assault the sentry base and overtake it which essentially results in base-trading.
I just don't see a way to make sentries interesting <i>and</i> balanced around everything else. Either they kill a player or they don't. If they do, they can probably also kill <i>two</i> players, or three, depending on how staggered they are. If it <i>requires</i> two or more players to even hope to do damage to <i>anything</i> in Marines base that's at all valuable, it's probably going to end up being even more imbalanced in the other direction. Great for win rates perhaps, but a loss in fun factor.
<!--quoteo(post=2065619:date=Jan 23 2013, 05:47 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 23 2013, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far peoeple who think L2P is the problem. How long does it take to L2P then? If it takes a lifetime (if ever) to master marines and a few weeks for aliens, that's a probem. It makes for many bad, one sided, no fun games. Isn't that the goal, to have fun? I know this balance problem so well now I can see it 5 minutes into the game. Not very fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A long time, this game has a high learning curve. It can take months and months to get decent at the game, and years to get good. The skill difference between the average comp. player and the average pub player is huge.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2065597:date=Jan 23 2013, 01:50 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 23 2013, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say that as if there wouldn't be a huge skill gap in game knowledge and strategy if tech and counters were more complex. If anything I think that's a bigger hurdle for new player than twitch skills, and something most players of NS2 would probably rather not think about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The skill gap would still exist, but be shifted more onto the comm. Right now, there is nothing a good comm can do to overcome a team that can't shoot, so there is less incentive to analyze strategy than there is to find and/or train good shooters. Hard counters make comm decisions more important if it can be used to overcome a FPS skill-deficient team.
<!--quoteo(post=2065619:date=Jan 23 2013, 07:47 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 23 2013, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So many people want to scrap sentries because they are so useless. That just seems stupid to me. All the work put into creating them would go to waste. Something can be done so they are not overpowered and not useless. There have been many ideas. Some much more drastic than others. I still think some minor tweaks to them can be done in a positive way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While I'm not gung-ho to actually remove them from the game, I do believe that they have no use in the game as they currently stand.
However the original post was about whether sentry changes could 'balance the game', and I don't agree. Sentries are not the answer to game balance.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am still holding by my guns that this game has a serious balance issue. Most suggestions that people make get shot down and lit on fire on this forum. The implication then becomes, "LEAVE THE GAME AS IS". That is wrong. The statistics show its wrong. My individiaul gaming experience and that of many others show its wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The *developers* know this is wrong since they have admitted there is a balance issue. There is no debate on this subject.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far peoeple who think L2P is the problem. How long does it take to L2P then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Seeing as marines lose more often in competitive games, L2P is not the issue here.
Sooner or later the developers will decide that they can't wait and hope that the players will 'figure it out'. When that happens there will be changes. My biggest fear is that they will be so incremental that the imbalance will go from 60/40 to 58/42.
Obviously, sentries being crap is not the only reason why marines lose more but it is certainly a factor. Imagine, we have a perfectly balanced game, the map is split 50-50, both teams swim in resources. While the aliens can spam the map with actually useful defenses to prevent multiple attacks, the marines cannot. It just takes the marines too long to clear out all these structures while marine outposts are quickly unpowered. And what is this bs about no hard counters? Last time ive seen a whip with my gl i felt pretty hard countered. And there are arcs hardcountering structures. Shotguns hardcountering fades, skulks and melee lerk attacks. Just no hard counter to onos. Skulks hardcountering exos. Bilebomb hardcountering mines and pretty much every alien hardcountering sentries.
<!--quoteo(post=2065660:date=Jan 23 2013, 08:54 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Jan 23 2013, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The statistics don't tell you <i>why</i> aliens win more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Does it really matter? I know it 'matters' but does it really <i>matter</i> what is causing the aliens to win more often? Let me use a fictitious NS2 example. (Folks, please do NOT try and debate whether this fictitious example is accurate of what is happening for balance in the game)
Let's say the reason aliens are winning more often is a subtle mix of marine health being a bit too low (2-bite kills before armor 1) as well as aliens being able to expand too quickly. Let's also suggest because the game is so complex, that despite the best efforts of the developers and the public, no one is able to determine the 'real' reason for the imbalance. What do we do? Just twiddle our thumbs and suggest that we don't touch the game until we figure it out exactly?
What if instead of waiting we make a change that is unrelated. Let's say that the developers put in electrified res nodes. Let's also say that in testing this change actually brings win/loss balance from 60/40 for aliens to 51/49 for aliens.
Should this change be released despite not knowing why aliens are winning more? If this fixes the problem, is that not what we want? So in the end, does it really matter if we know why the aliens are winning more if we can make changes that will balance the game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just don't see a way to make sentries interesting <i>and</i> balanced around everything else. Either they kill a player or they don't. If they do, they can probably also kill <i>two</i> players, or three, depending on how staggered they are. If it <i>requires</i> two or more players to even hope to do damage to <i>anything</i> in Marines base that's at all valuable, it's probably going to end up being even more imbalanced in the other direction. Great for win rates perhaps, but a loss in fun factor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree. Sentries are ALWAYS susceptible to damage from range.
The problem I think people are having with sentries is that they are hung up on the skulk. Let sentries be effective against skulks. You still have the three other alien lifeforms that can deal with sentries. (I exclude the Fade since it is really an anti-personnel lifeform) The Lerk can spike down sentries from range, it can also confuse sentries with spores. The gorge has bile and to a lesser extent spit. The Onos has... well the Onos just obliterates everything. So it's not like sentries will be a 'lockdown' tool. It just means aliens will have to use other tools.
It's like the shotgun. Good up close but bad at range. For the skulks they are fast, but susceptible to sentry fire. Of course this assumes no blind spots, which is often impossible.
In any case, if sentries can't kill skulks unless they walk up to the sentry and stand still, then what's the point? The skulk is the weakest unit in the game, so if it isn't effective against the skulk it won't be effective against anything else.
<!--quoteo(post=2065619:date=Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So many people want to scrap sentries because they are so useless. That just seems stupid to me. All the work put into creating them would go to waste. Something can be done so they are not overpowered and not useless. There have been many ideas. Some much more drastic than others. I still think some minor tweaks to them can be done in a positive way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The sentries were nearly completely useless in the late beta. They were actually buffed right before release. What is in the game right now is sentries in their "buffed" state. And by the way, I saw very little change or impact to gameplay from "buffing" sentries. Before release, they were extremely rare to see, and the game was pretty fun and playable... oh, and win rates were pretty close to 50/50 :-D - mind you, without sentries EVER made. But hey, at least they're actually usable now.
<!--quoteo(post=2065619:date=Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am still holding by my guns that this game has a serious balance issue. Most suggestions that people make get shot down and lit on fire on this forum. The implication then becomes, "LEAVE THE GAME AS IS". That is wrong. The statistics show its wrong. My individiaul gaming experience and that of many others show its wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do the "statistics show?" Alien/marine wins aren't 50%? Like someone said above, they don't show <b>why</b> they're not 50% though. In an asymmetric game, it's pretty hard to find out. You can get some idea after playing for a while, but even then - do you truly "know?" In my opinion why the wins aren't 50% is due to many, many different things, with gameplay around sentries delivering much lesser impact than things like, being able to ambush and aim a skulk effectively ending up much easier for næbs than preventing an ambush or shooting a skulk. Then comes the question - how do you improve that? Make marine easier to aim? Make skulk harder to aim? And then, does that really solve the "root problem" if there even is one?
<!--quoteo(post=2065619:date=Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far peoeple who think L2P is the problem. How long does it take to L2P then? If it takes a lifetime (if ever) to master marines and a few weeks for aliens, that's a probem. It makes for many bad, one sided, no fun games. Isn't that the goal, to have fun? I know this balance problem so well now I can see it 5 minutes into the game. Not very fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, NS2 isn't a casual game - so if being "easy to pick up and play well" is your definition of fun, I think you're looking at the wrong game. Anyone can obviously start up NS2, and just run around shooting stuff, not being sure of what they're doing - and lose. But to play WELL, that's a different story. And unfortunately, like I said above there are overwhelmingly many variables to win/loss, some more glaring than others, but it's indeed much harder (in my opinion) to play marines effectively. It's much harder because they end up being much harder to position and aim, among other things. That's just one of the differences that will probably always be in the game, unless there are some pretty drastic and fundamental changes to gameplay - changes well beyond tweaking sentries, the gameplay around sentries being very incidental and infrequent in most NS2 games.
Also, I really believe that some people will hardly ever be good at NS2, because they're lacking the RTS background to understand things like tech. differentials (tech/expansion trade-offs), timing, clustering/scattering, counters, kiting (exploiting ranges), etc. You can "pick that up" from NS2, but it'll probably take most people a long, long, LONG time to really gain an understanding and intuitive "feel" of the RTS game in NS2, without having played an RTS game online competitively - triple that time if they never go commander (which obviously emphasizes the RTS features of the game).
NS2 is a pretty "hard" game, which is also what makes it so interesting to me at least. I really believe some people won't ever be as good at the game as others, because they've reached a personal "plateau" of skill. Personally, I'm a bit afraid I've also reached my "plateau" sometimes. I've seen it before, people with 1000+ hours in Supcom 2 for example playing worse than people with 200 hours - because they're simply worse players.
If you're looking for a timeframe for the NS2 "learning curve," I have 1500+ hours of Supcom 2 playtime, 95% of it playing "competitively" online, and I've been playing FPS games fairly frequently since the mid 90's, "competitively" online and offline. My first 100-150 hours in NS2, I feel like I was learning pretty intensively about the RTS and FPS game, and at about 200-250 hours I feel like it really started "clicking." I'm at 800+ right now, and I still feel like I'm learning about the game here and there. Maybe I'm a slow learner; maybe you or someone else can learn faster - I'm just telling you my experience.
So in summary, yes, it seems like aliens, for whatever reason, are easier to win with than marines. What that reason is exactly is fairly unknown, although I have my own ideas, as I'm sure a lot of people do. However, I seriously doubt that the reason it's easier to win with aliens is because marine sentries are deficient. It just doesn't seem that way to me from the hundreds of games I've played...
<!--quoteo(post=2065440:date=Jan 23 2013, 07:32 AM:name=Moby)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Moby @ Jan 23 2013, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Omar - The Wire and HeatSurge: Nice that you have those really standing out avatars, so it was easy to skip all your posts after I read the first one of you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Np, the forums do have an ignore feature I believe. You might wanna look into that.
Comments
Damage: 20 (max)
Duration: 5 seconds (ramp-up)
Interval: 0.5 seconds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Note quite. Best to open up the balance.lua file since stuff gets changed all the time. Here's the current data:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kSentryAttackDamageType = kDamageType.Normal
kSentryAttackBaseROF = .15
kSentryAttackRandROF = 0.0
kSentryAttackBulletsPerSalvo = 1
kConfusedSentryBaseROF = 2.0
kSentryDamage = 5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->There is no damage ramp up, it's a craptastic 5 damage. I won't get into the tracking aspect, as well as the time to lock on target.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This entire thread in regards to sentry changes/electro res reeks of the stupidity in the EXO thread, you're judging the effectiveness of something based on the worst cases of it being used in public play<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->99.9% of games *are* public play.
Sentries are garbage. They are almost universally considered garbage by the community. Dropping sentry farms (without some really good convincing to the team) will result in commander ejection. Heck I've seen admins kick people from the server for it. (I kid you not, but I also do NOT support those kinds of actions. Eject is fine, but not kick.)
If sentries were really viable <b>PEOPLE WOULD USE THEM</b>. Do we really think that the community at large has some kind of blind hatred of sentries? Seriously? If they were viable, <b>PEOPLE WOULD USE THEM</b>. They don't. Shall I sum it up again?
-They cost too much for what they offer
-They can only be placed in a tiny area
-They have a huge Achilles heel with the easykill sentry battery
-They too expensive when you need them (early game)
-They are useless when you can afford them (late game)
-They don't track upwards, so lerks get a free pass above them
-They have a small FOV and a huge blind spot
-An entire nest can be killed with only TWO bile bombs
I could go on and on, but it's pointless. You can spin this all you like, but the vast majority of players have spoken, and they rightfully feel sentries are a waste of time and resources. I agree with them. You can postulate about their purportedly amazing characteristics, but no one is buying it.
Anyway, no point in going around in circles since I *AGREE* with you in that sentry changes are not the way to address imbalance in the game.
Probably both.
I know this is an asymmetrical game, but...
Why can the alien team put eleventy billion bombard whips in any given room, but the marines can only put 3 turrets that a single non-retarded skulk can take out?
Probably both.
I know this is an asymmetrical game, but...
Why can the alien team put eleventy billion bombard whips in any given room, but the marines can only put 3 turrets that a single non-retarded skulk can take out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because whips can all be wiped out in 5 seconds with 1 or 2 arcs from another room where they and the marines are safe and dont have to expose themselves to destroy the whips.
Aliens have to get into the firing line or atleast have LOS for bile bomb....something that arcs dont need.
Damage: 10
Rate of Fire: 10 rounds/sec (And all 10 of these rounds did rego)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is also incorrect.. it was closer to 18 r/s - 1081 rpm. (<a href="http://imageshack.us/a/img237/7928/lmgrofal1.gif" target="_blank">and, depended on frame rate</a>)
Aliens have to get into the firing line or atleast have LOS for bile bomb....something that arcs dont need.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whips also do 50 damage.
If Ink was more useful, arcs would be a non-issue.
Does anyone know UWEs stance on "hard counters"?
Edit:
Also:
Aliens have whips waaaay before marines have ARCs.
If Ink was more useful, arcs would be a non-issue.
Does anyone know UWEs stance on "hard counters"?
Edit:
Also:
Aliens have whips waaaay before marines have ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines have ARCs 'waaaaay before' aliens can put down a 'roomfull of whips' without crippling their economy.
If Ink was more useful, arcs would be a non-issue.
Does anyone know UWEs stance on "hard counters"?
Edit:
Also:
Aliens have whips waaaay before marines have ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The damage whips do is not relevent as they can be taken out without any opportunity to inflict damage at all using arcs.
As amoral said, economy wise a room full of whips take a lot of res....marines will have arcs well before or at the very least at the same time these large numbers of whips are seen.
I think considering most of marine tech is a hard counter to alien they have a slight fondness.
Obs counters cloaking.
Weapons upgrades counter carapce.
FT counters umbra and spores
Arcs counter large numbers of structures in a very short and economical way.
There are a few already in the game, but dont expect that means they are in a hurry to add more in.
Its something they talk about not wanting to do more of if possible.
Most pubs build RTs and when they encounter some resistance like a single gorge or infestation, they just stop and start camping and waiting for the sky to fall or something. If you watch any form of half-decent (not even competitive game, just half-decent), you will notice that the teams never stop, unless it's very situational like waiting for a couple res ticks for a phase gate or something. There is constant pressure, constant pushing, constant activity. Nobody sits and waits. They go and kill stuff.
Therein is the essence of NS2 and the failure of pubs. The marine's job is NOT to defend RTs. If you run around defending RTs, you WILL lose. Marines can NOT do that effectively. Perhaps once jetpacks are out, one person can be dedicated to keeping the RTs clean in the "back," but jetpacks are mid-late game.
The essence of early game is massive, concentrated, organized PRESSURE. If you haven't killed a gorge or alien RT on a pub by about 2:00 you aren't likely to win - unless, of course, the alien team is just as terrible, which is also, unfortunately, commonly seen.
The way to "pull" aliens off your RTs is to MAKE them play defensively around their infested areas. Make it so if they have one skulk killing your RT in the back, they lose an RT of their own, or even a hive.
Unfortunately, that requires organization and coordination on marine side, as well as aiming and positioning skills from EVERY player of the marine team, as well as an excellent commander - a combination that you hardly ever see on pubs. Cue "no commander" for the first 1-2 minutes of a game, etc., and you've got a game that most newer players think "favors aliens."
There is no problem with the balancing of the game. Sentries, electrify, resource-node-explode, mining RTs, etc. etc. etc. are all suggestions to "fix" side-effects of a glowing problem in a lot of the current NS2 games I've played: LACK OF MARINE PRESSURE EARLY GAME.
The real problem is that aliens are actually HORRIBLY under-powered. If you have a clockwork marine team where everyone is above-decent in shooting and positioning skill, aliens get simply ripped to shreds early game - because there's only so much a skulk can do to evade a ranged weapon, especially in early game when leap is not up.
I'm not sure it was worth my time to reiterate this for the 1000th time on these forums, but yeah - good luck with your "tower defense mod."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for Truth.
But you can't say "There is no problem. The players are just to stupid for the game."
If the game lures you into playing it the wrong way, it isn't the fault of the players. It also can't be right, that you need much more coordination on the marine team than on the alien team. 3 onos rushing the base are unbeatable. And this is the climax of teamplay you need at the alien team. At the same time, marines need to play together and with absolute map awareness the whole time. This isn't asymmetry. This is imbalance in the demand of teamplay. And this is exactly why marines lose more often than marines.
I also like the idea about electrifying, its a good early game method, if its not too expensive to upgrade.
And yeah, please remove those turrets completely out of the game, they are just useless right now.
@Omar - The Wire and HeatSurge: Nice that you have those really standing out avatars, so it was easy to skip all your posts after I read the first one of you.
I still think that sentries should be a deployable item for marines, like mines. Remove them as a res sink for the commander so that he can focus his money on things that might help his team win. Then if players on the field feel that sentries would be helpful they can spend their PRes on it.
I still think that sentries should be a deployable item for marines, like mines. Remove them as a res sink for the commander so that he can focus his money on things that might help his team win. Then if players on the field feel that sentries would be helpful they can spend their PRes on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because i'd drop one at every single rt, and the aliens would absolutely hate me for it. you're talking about deterrence/delayance/area of denial from pres, and they call mines "borderline-op."
I built only robo at base and ordered all but 1-2 rines downfield to the logical 2nd hive and put Sentries down (backups went to opposite side of board tech point and skipped RTs). Aliens took it out after eventually and I recycled but it cost them a lot of skulks (eggs/time). Tech point on the other side of the board becomes "Base" where armory and obs go to do research (and second CC and IP depending on how things go). The aliens spend so much time securing the 2nd hive room (and rt) they have to drop it asap after they reclaim it, which made it easy to shoot down by walking the entire team there at exactly 5:30.
The sentries need to do 2-3 bullets worth of damage to skulks to make your bad marines good enough to get 1:1 KDR and keep the pressure up. Aliens were never able to fight on our side of the map because their RTs and second hive were in constant jeopardy.
Are sentries really expensive? In this game it worked out and we killed 10-15 skulks before they could take out all the rines and I'd recycle. A forward obs only lets marines know roughly where to shoot, it doesn't make them good shots, for 5 more res you can cushion the bad aim keep pressure up, which is always the key to victory.
Edit: I intend to try this more and see if it holds up with better rines against better aliens. Sentries only mileage is early game where skulk HP is low or mid-late to keep khamm's from cyst spamming, so you might as well rush them if you're going to bother.
Even if there was no per-player limit, a single sentry is useless unsupported. I'd rather have 3 mines on my RT than a sentry, at least the mines might kill an alien who isn't paying attention.
There's actually a point where the alien team requires a lot more coordination and skill than the marine team. When both teams are mildly competent and have essentially split the map (usually the marines claim a little bit more, as per their nature when played properly), alien teams in pubs are often completely clueless on how to proceed. I've seen plenty of marine teams win from this position because they turtle on those tech points and rts very easily, get jps and exos and w3/a3 and arcs, and then run through the map annihilating everything. The alien team in this position needs to realize what's happening ahead of time, coordinate the ratio of lifeforms they are going to use, decide where to attack, and then have to use all those lifeforms well. The exo/jp/arc train with only a couple good shooters simply walks up to bases and crushes them with little effort.
you'd have to go over there anyway to reset your mines
Most pubs build RTs and when they encounter some resistance like a single gorge or infestation, they just stop and start camping and waiting for the sky to fall or something. If you watch any form of half-decent (not even competitive game, just half-decent), you will notice that the teams never stop, unless it's very situational like waiting for a couple res ticks for a phase gate or something. There is constant pressure, constant pushing, constant activity. Nobody sits and waits. They go and kill stuff.
Therein is the essence of NS2 and the failure of pubs. The marine's job is NOT to defend RTs. If you run around defending RTs, you WILL lose. Marines can NOT do that effectively. Perhaps once jetpacks are out, one person can be dedicated to keeping the RTs clean in the "back," but jetpacks are mid-late game.
The essence of early game is massive, concentrated, organized PRESSURE. If you haven't killed a gorge or alien RT on a pub by about 2:00 you aren't likely to win - unless, of course, the alien team is just as terrible, which is also, unfortunately, commonly seen.
The way to "pull" aliens off your RTs is to MAKE them play defensively around their infested areas. Make it so if they have one skulk killing your RT in the back, they lose an RT of their own, or even a hive.
Unfortunately, that requires organization and coordination on marine side, as well as aiming and positioning skills from EVERY player of the marine team, as well as an excellent commander - a combination that you hardly ever see on pubs. Cue "no commander" for the first 1-2 minutes of a game, etc., and you've got a game that most newer players think "favors aliens."
There is no problem with the balancing of the game. Sentries, electrify, resource-node-explode, mining RTs, etc. etc. etc. are all suggestions to "fix" side-effects of a glowing problem in a lot of the current NS2 games I've played: LACK OF MARINE PRESSURE EARLY GAME.
The real problem is that aliens are actually HORRIBLY under-powered. If you have a clockwork marine team where everyone is above-decent in shooting and positioning skill, aliens get simply ripped to shreds early game - because there's only so much a skulk can do to evade a ranged weapon, especially in early game when leap is not up.
I'm not sure it was worth my time to reiterate this for the 1000th time on these forums, but yeah - good luck with your "tower defense mod."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though I was more flippant in my earlier post, this is basically what I was trying to point out.
The problem with marine W/L rates is that marines don't know how to be agressive and successful at the same time.
They are either successful at defending some small patch of ground with a natural choke-point, or they are successful at defending with sentries at their back, but they are unsuccessful when being agressive. Then the sentries become the crutch and ultimately they become the team. Soon, what you are doing is "walking" sentry fields of fire forward and the marines are there providing covering fire to the sentries. No matter how you mod sentries, this playstyle will lose unless you buff sentries so far that there's no reason to play the game anymore.
Simple fact is that until marines get better at moving, covering fire, evading detection, RT hunting, and flitting around like a hummingbird in a JP, (in that order) they are likely to lose most of their games. Buffing sentries will not flatten the learning curve on these activities, it will make it much harder to learn them in fact because the sentries start doing the heavy lifting.
If UWE removed sentries from the game, marine wins would start coming faster. I'm almost positive about this.
Now, if you want a constructive post on HOW to modify sentries to make them useful, here is my honest and legitimate answer.
* Remove battery packs
* Remove placement limitations per room (more than 3 SG's would be fine)
* Sentries require 2 CC's to build
* Sentries no longer dependent on robotics factory
* Sentries buildable on walls, ceilings, floors
* Purchased for 10 P-Res from advanced armory
* Unlimited sight range and nearly 360 Degrees of motion tracking on both x and Y axis. (No effective blind spot from melee range, but not perfect coverage either)
* SG's self repair when not "in combat" at some marginal rate
* Slower tracking speed (skulk run-by from "medium" range should cause injury, but not death... lerks could hit/run but not snipe at them from a great distance without great harm)
*** Modify damage properties after extensive testing
Reasoning : Sentries in the early game slow down tech badly for marine teams. Mines already do "stay behind" defense well enough when players use them. This means that the proper time for sentries is when you already control most of the map and you have a problem defending a sprawling infrastructure with fewer marines available for specific defense duty once Mines are no longer effective stay-behind defense. Changing when they are available, and making them deploy-able by marines makes their use more democratic (the commander can't cripple the team's chances of winning by trying to turtle) while making any kind of "SG rush" parallel to other more useful tech paths.
New build options encourage the use of JP's to build in out of the way locations, which further encourages a more optimal tech path while making that tech path more interesting.
Rookie marines will learn basic skills rather than being confused about the role of SG's in the strategic sense.
SG tracking and range buffs amplify the need for creative placement further while making SG capabilities more intuitive. Also removes most of the problems that might arise from accidental or suboptimal placement.
SG purchase price reflects the relative worth of the device for the time that it enters the game.
Tracking speed/damage properties should make them effective at defending RT's and Tech points while not actually denying aliens the use of a critical movement route past them.
------------------
Or, just leave them as is and L2P :p
Quoting from the <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit?pli=1#heading=h.v1cv4zucq1o5" target="_blank">high-level design doc</a>:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Counters
NS2 favors “soft†counters over “hard†counters. The idea of one technology, unit or ability easily defeating another one works better in an RTS than an FPS. It’s also not very interesting. So whenever possible, NS2 aims to have certain abilities be stronger against other abilities, but still allowing for player skill to close the gap.
For the same reason, NS2 is first a shooter, second a strategy game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I think hard counters would be helpful in reducing the huge skill gap I frequently see in NS2 matches. It would also make proper scouting and tech tree research more important.
Personally, I think hard counters would be helpful in reducing the huge skill gap I frequently see in NS2 matches. It would also make proper scouting and tech tree research more important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say that as if there wouldn't be a huge skill gap in game knowledge and strategy if tech and counters were more complex. If anything I think that's a bigger hurdle for new player than twitch skills, and something most players of NS2 would probably rather not think about.
Going back to the original post, fine, scrap the mod idea. I also think there is merit to the idea that sentries were never intended for "set and forget". They can stay in that role and not suck if some changes are made to them. But should they be used to help the "aliens win too much" problem. I am not so sure now.
I am still holding by my guns that this game has a serious balance issue. Most suggestions that people make get shot down and lit on fire on this forum. The implication then becomes, "LEAVE THE GAME AS IS". That is wrong. The statistics show its wrong. My individiaul gaming experience and that of many others show its wrong.
"LEAVE THE GAME AS IS" is a bad idea. That means something needs to change. There are far too many people on this forum saying ideas suck. If they suck come up with a better idea then. Some of you have, most have not.
As far peoeple who think L2P is the problem. How long does it take to L2P then? If it takes a lifetime (if ever) to master marines and a few weeks for aliens, that's a probem. It makes for many bad, one sided, no fun games. Isn't that the goal, to have fun? I know this balance problem so well now I can see it 5 minutes into the game. Not very fun.
Sentries would be an attachment to buildings
Sentry Batteries would be removed as an object (and power packs brought back?)
Sentries would keep current damage values and tracking (to balance increased "battery" heath)
Sentries would be given 360 targeting (to balance only have less sentries per "battery")
Sentry Battery research costs 15 res
Each sentry costs 10 res
This setup would not require marines to build as the structures would already be active
-- Nanites would allow the sentry to be activated from the existing structure after a few seconds of auto-build time
Only certain structures can have sentries (for spam prevention):
Robo factory - 2 sentry slots
Armory - 1 sentry slot
Extractor - 1 sentry slot
The guns would be ties into the structures power supply, meaning that if the power in the room goes down, so does the sentry.
This keeps turrets in line as deterrents rather than area denial, and gives marines more time to react before losing res (powernode = free, Extarctor = 10 res)
The statistics don't tell you <i>why</i> aliens win more. I think you're the one implicating things, if anyone is. I can tell you one thing with absolute certainty. Sentry turrets are not the reason Aliens win more, either through uselessness or usefulness. The reason <i>why</i> they win more is the subject of debate, and if someone disagree's with me on the above that's fine but changing sentries to anything less than a skulk annihilator probably won't make a difference either way.
I think a lot of people want sentries to be buffed because the actual Marines players can't hit diddly or because they want to make <i>sure</i> it takes a concentrated effort for the Aliens to take a base that has no players in it. This would pretty much result in an aliens loss, as this would allow Marines to make a second-hive assault a near zero risk proposition with even close to even teams.
Either the Aliens repel the Marines and gain little strategic value for it besides surviving a little longer, or they split their forces which will likely result in a total loss of the second hive, or they all assault the sentry base and overtake it which essentially results in base-trading.
I just don't see a way to make sentries interesting <i>and</i> balanced around everything else. Either they kill a player or they don't. If they do, they can probably also kill <i>two</i> players, or three, depending on how staggered they are. If it <i>requires</i> two or more players to even hope to do damage to <i>anything</i> in Marines base that's at all valuable, it's probably going to end up being even more imbalanced in the other direction. Great for win rates perhaps, but a loss in fun factor.
A long time, this game has a high learning curve. It can take months and months to get decent at the game, and years to get good. The skill difference between the average comp. player and the average pub player is huge.
The skill gap would still exist, but be shifted more onto the comm. Right now, there is nothing a good comm can do to overcome a team that can't shoot, so there is less incentive to analyze strategy than there is to find and/or train good shooters. Hard counters make comm decisions more important if it can be used to overcome a FPS skill-deficient team.
However the original post was about whether sentry changes could 'balance the game', and I don't agree. Sentries are not the answer to game balance.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am still holding by my guns that this game has a serious balance issue. Most suggestions that people make get shot down and lit on fire on this forum. The implication then becomes, "LEAVE THE GAME AS IS". That is wrong. The statistics show its wrong. My individiaul gaming experience and that of many others show its wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The *developers* know this is wrong since they have admitted there is a balance issue. There is no debate on this subject.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far peoeple who think L2P is the problem. How long does it take to L2P then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Seeing as marines lose more often in competitive games, L2P is not the issue here.
Sooner or later the developers will decide that they can't wait and hope that the players will 'figure it out'. When that happens there will be changes. My biggest fear is that they will be so incremental that the imbalance will go from 60/40 to 58/42.
And what is this bs about no hard counters? Last time ive seen a whip with my gl i felt pretty hard countered. And there are arcs hardcountering structures. Shotguns hardcountering fades, skulks and melee lerk attacks. Just no hard counter to onos. Skulks hardcountering exos. Bilebomb hardcountering mines and pretty much every alien hardcountering sentries.
Let's say the reason aliens are winning more often is a subtle mix of marine health being a bit too low (2-bite kills before armor 1) as well as aliens being able to expand too quickly. Let's also suggest because the game is so complex, that despite the best efforts of the developers and the public, no one is able to determine the 'real' reason for the imbalance. What do we do? Just twiddle our thumbs and suggest that we don't touch the game until we figure it out exactly?
What if instead of waiting we make a change that is unrelated. Let's say that the developers put in electrified res nodes. Let's also say that in testing this change actually brings win/loss balance from 60/40 for aliens to 51/49 for aliens.
Should this change be released despite not knowing why aliens are winning more? If this fixes the problem, is that not what we want? So in the end, does it really matter if we know why the aliens are winning more if we can make changes that will balance the game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just don't see a way to make sentries interesting <i>and</i> balanced around everything else. Either they kill a player or they don't. If they do, they can probably also kill <i>two</i> players, or three, depending on how staggered they are. If it <i>requires</i> two or more players to even hope to do damage to <i>anything</i> in Marines base that's at all valuable, it's probably going to end up being even more imbalanced in the other direction. Great for win rates perhaps, but a loss in fun factor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree. Sentries are ALWAYS susceptible to damage from range.
The problem I think people are having with sentries is that they are hung up on the skulk. Let sentries be effective against skulks. You still have the three other alien lifeforms that can deal with sentries. (I exclude the Fade since it is really an anti-personnel lifeform) The Lerk can spike down sentries from range, it can also confuse sentries with spores. The gorge has bile and to a lesser extent spit. The Onos has... well the Onos just obliterates everything. So it's not like sentries will be a 'lockdown' tool. It just means aliens will have to use other tools.
It's like the shotgun. Good up close but bad at range. For the skulks they are fast, but susceptible to sentry fire. Of course this assumes no blind spots, which is often impossible.
In any case, if sentries can't kill skulks unless they walk up to the sentry and stand still, then what's the point? The skulk is the weakest unit in the game, so if it isn't effective against the skulk it won't be effective against anything else.
The sentries were nearly completely useless in the late beta. They were actually buffed right before release. What is in the game right now is sentries in their "buffed" state. And by the way, I saw very little change or impact to gameplay from "buffing" sentries. Before release, they were extremely rare to see, and the game was pretty fun and playable... oh, and win rates were pretty close to 50/50 :-D - mind you, without sentries EVER made. But hey, at least they're actually usable now.
<!--quoteo(post=2065619:date=Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am still holding by my guns that this game has a serious balance issue. Most suggestions that people make get shot down and lit on fire on this forum. The implication then becomes, "LEAVE THE GAME AS IS". That is wrong. The statistics show its wrong. My individiaul gaming experience and that of many others show its wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do the "statistics show?" Alien/marine wins aren't 50%? Like someone said above, they don't show <b>why</b> they're not 50% though. In an asymmetric game, it's pretty hard to find out. You can get some idea after playing for a while, but even then - do you truly "know?" In my opinion why the wins aren't 50% is due to many, many different things, with gameplay around sentries delivering much lesser impact than things like, being able to ambush and aim a skulk effectively ending up much easier for næbs than preventing an ambush or shooting a skulk. Then comes the question - how do you improve that? Make marine easier to aim? Make skulk harder to aim? And then, does that really solve the "root problem" if there even is one?
<!--quoteo(post=2065619:date=Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 23 2013, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far peoeple who think L2P is the problem. How long does it take to L2P then? If it takes a lifetime (if ever) to master marines and a few weeks for aliens, that's a probem. It makes for many bad, one sided, no fun games. Isn't that the goal, to have fun? I know this balance problem so well now I can see it 5 minutes into the game. Not very fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, NS2 isn't a casual game - so if being "easy to pick up and play well" is your definition of fun, I think you're looking at the wrong game. Anyone can obviously start up NS2, and just run around shooting stuff, not being sure of what they're doing - and lose. But to play WELL, that's a different story. And unfortunately, like I said above there are overwhelmingly many variables to win/loss, some more glaring than others, but it's indeed much harder (in my opinion) to play marines effectively. It's much harder because they end up being much harder to position and aim, among other things. That's just one of the differences that will probably always be in the game, unless there are some pretty drastic and fundamental changes to gameplay - changes well beyond tweaking sentries, the gameplay around sentries being very incidental and infrequent in most NS2 games.
Also, I really believe that some people will hardly ever be good at NS2, because they're lacking the RTS background to understand things like tech. differentials (tech/expansion trade-offs), timing, clustering/scattering, counters, kiting (exploiting ranges), etc. You can "pick that up" from NS2, but it'll probably take most people a long, long, LONG time to really gain an understanding and intuitive "feel" of the RTS game in NS2, without having played an RTS game online competitively - triple that time if they never go commander (which obviously emphasizes the RTS features of the game).
NS2 is a pretty "hard" game, which is also what makes it so interesting to me at least. I really believe some people won't ever be as good at the game as others, because they've reached a personal "plateau" of skill. Personally, I'm a bit afraid I've also reached my "plateau" sometimes. I've seen it before, people with 1000+ hours in Supcom 2 for example playing worse than people with 200 hours - because they're simply worse players.
If you're looking for a timeframe for the NS2 "learning curve," I have 1500+ hours of Supcom 2 playtime, 95% of it playing "competitively" online, and I've been playing FPS games fairly frequently since the mid 90's, "competitively" online and offline. My first 100-150 hours in NS2, I feel like I was learning pretty intensively about the RTS and FPS game, and at about 200-250 hours I feel like it really started "clicking." I'm at 800+ right now, and I still feel like I'm learning about the game here and there. Maybe I'm a slow learner; maybe you or someone else can learn faster - I'm just telling you my experience.
So in summary, yes, it seems like aliens, for whatever reason, are easier to win with than marines. What that reason is exactly is fairly unknown, although I have my own ideas, as I'm sure a lot of people do. However, I seriously doubt that the reason it's easier to win with aliens is because marine sentries are deficient. It just doesn't seem that way to me from the hundreds of games I've played...
<!--quoteo(post=2065440:date=Jan 23 2013, 07:32 AM:name=Moby)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Moby @ Jan 23 2013, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Omar - The Wire and HeatSurge: Nice that you have those really standing out avatars, so it was easy to skip all your posts after I read the first one of you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Np, the forums do have an ignore feature I believe. You might wanna look into that.