<!--quoteo(post=2063234:date=Jan 19 2013, 09:47 AM:name=DamDSx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DamDSx @ Jan 19 2013, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bring back electrify. best feature for marines taken away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the more I think about it, I rather like this and hope you might support it its own thread. I don't think buffing turrets is the right dimension to help marines right now, but electrify would do a lot to balance this game, I believe.
improving sentries and adding stuff like electrify is just another symptom of the core problem
which is:
MARINES HAVE WAY MORE RESPONSIBILITY THAN SKULKS.
both cost zero res, and when a skulk dies meh who cares, marine dies? TIME FOR A 20 MINUTE WALK. Marines shouldn't require phasegates to function, phase gates should be an ADVANTAGE, not a REQUIREMENT-TO-HAVE-ANY-CHANCE-AT-ALL
<!--quoteo(post=2063706:date=Jan 20 2013, 08:30 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 20 2013, 08:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) I don't know how well that will work. Can't a gorge blow up a mine with one shot? Maybe there is a argument that mines are not used as often as they should. But why haven't enough people figured it out to help the marines win more? This is an L2P post. NO.
2) Ok, not a bad idea. Do you think someone can mod it? No way I could.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Gorges take 3 spits to kill a mine. Mines are greatly viable until bile bomb or aggressive cysts get infestation on them.
2) Assuming I took the time to learn more LUA than I have so far, it wouldn't be too hard to add it to turret AI. Of course, that's assuming the bile bomb projectile can be shot down in the first place.
EDIT: I'd support sentries more like NS1 if you needed a Robotics Factory to build them (and required functional for all turrets to worK), they were dependent on room power, and there was a limit of 3-4 per room. This would make it okay for them to have 360 degree functionality, and perhaps a range increase.
EDIT: The turrets would require a functional Robotics Factory on the map to work, not one per every room. That's just messy.
<!--quoteo(post=2063292:date=Jan 19 2013, 11:18 AM:name=GirTurkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GirTurkey @ Jan 19 2013, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ANECDOTE coming you are warned:
Playing Veil, players are constantly terrified that instead of putting a PG in sub hive, and dbl, and y-junction, i simply place a PG in System waypointing. I try to explain that a PG here can help us defend all the RTs on the left side of the map, better than one in sub can, and let's us defend the Rts in dbl, and we can pressure the cargo hive. They are baffled and call me noobie. I try and explain it, but they don't buy it. You know what else they don't buy? the Mines i researched first so as to protect our PG interests across the map. I usually have to get out as the commander and place mines to cover our Pgs, because my team thinks its a waste of res and just want shotguns.
I try and explain that when weapons 1 comes online, i'll make sure there are sgs, until then they aren't super useful, and there are better upgrades to get. then i get called noob for not turreting base.
THATS WHY MARINES LOSE EVERYGAME.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I relate to this so much.
Me: Hey guys, I just started researching mines. Me: Mines are up. 5 mins later Random Marine: Hey, we have mines. Random Marine #2: Mines are useless, can we have shotguns?
Edit: I like to subscribe to the philosophy that marines will weld/place mines/burn structures if you provide the tools.
That is: If you want marines to weld things, research welders and they'll do it without being told. The same goes for Flamethrowers, and alien buildings.
The problem is that a lot of marines seem to think Flamethrowers are great for taking out aliens(They're Okay at it, because of the DoT). I rarely research Grenade Launchers, and only if I already have jetpacks and dual Exos.
+1 for electrify. I've stopped playing alien entirely because it's too much about harassing extractors, which is too easy to do successfully and thus wins the match too easily. I used to tell my team to let the marines build their first two extractors so we can get a good game going. But not even doing that is enough (even when the team-mates listen.)
With electrify, a huge burden and waste of time could be removed, plus that winning as an alien can be less about destroying extractors and more about actually using some skills.
There's balancing, and then there's balancing that makes things more fun. I wonder when UWE are going to try the later.
I want to explore how to learn to drive a car better. Currently I am only using my feet to steer. Any trolls that want to tell me to use my hands instead, please go away and troll another "Learn to Drive" thread. Ok now let's have a meaningful discussion about this.
I want to explore how to learn to drive a car better. Currently I am only using my feet to steer. Any trolls that want to tell me to use my hands instead, please go away and troll another "Learn to Drive" thread. Ok now let's have a meaningful discussion about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ignore him, I think this is what you would call a scarecrow argument, a logical fallacy.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
More effective sentries won't happen as UWE doesn't want to turn its game into NS2:Tower Defense. "Man vs Turret" is one of the things that helped kill Nuclear Dawn, so I'd prefer not to see the same happen to NS2.
I want to explore how to learn to drive a car better. Currently I am only using my feet to steer. Any trolls that want to tell me to use my hands instead, please go away and troll another "Learn to Drive" thread. Ok now let's have a meaningful discussion about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2063840:date=Jan 20 2013, 02:42 PM:name=yehawmcgraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yehawmcgraw @ Jan 20 2013, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ignore him, I think this is what you would call a scarecrow argument, a logical fallacy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He complained aliens win too much because turrets aren't doing their job protecting extractors and suggested more turrets allowed per room. You're right, that not driving with your feet, that's driving with your head up your ass.
<!--quoteo(post=2063848:date=Jan 20 2013, 08:52 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 20 2013, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More effective sentries won't happen as UWE doesn't want to turn its game into NS2:Tower Defense. "Man vs Turret" is one of the things that helped kill Nuclear Dawn, so I'd prefer not to see the same happen to NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why did they include turrets if they want them to be useless and a waste of ressources? I don't get this kind of reasoning. That's like the aliens got a lifeform which is <b>supposed</b> to be ineffective. I can hardly belive UWE intended turrets to be broken.
<!--quoteo(post=2063866:date=Jan 20 2013, 02:36 PM:name=Terranigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terranigma @ Jan 20 2013, 02:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why did they include turrets if they want them to be useless and a waste of ressources? I don't get this kind of reasoning. That's like the aliens got a lifeform which is <b>supposed</b> to be ineffective. I can hardly belive UWE intended turrets to be broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i've always had the impression that they were included to delay the single skulk from killing your stuff as quickly... and to assist the reinforcing marine. sometimes i advocate the commander throwing up a sentry nest at a resnode because i'm tired of rebuilding the damn res tower because of the rush distance from the closest pg.
<!--quoteo(post=2063866:date=Jan 20 2013, 05:36 PM:name=Terranigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terranigma @ Jan 20 2013, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why did they include turrets if they want them to be useless and a waste of ressources? ... I can hardly belive UWE intended turrets to be broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ahhh, excellent question. You see the trick is that turrets USED to be stronger in early NS2. They never had an easy battery to take out either. Like many things in the game, it was hit with successive nerfs until it reached the point where they're pretty much a waste of resources.
Consider it. Since sentry damage is really only of risk to skulks, then the key period to have sentries would be in the beginning. Sentries aren't going to stop a gorge/lerk/onos at all. The first two fire at range and the last just LOLs at sentries and decimates them.
Back in NS1 sentries were so powerful that it was near impossible for a single skulk or gorge to bust a base. (it happened only if the turret factory was put in a bad spot)
The turret factory (basically what we call a sentry battery now) could be electrified, so it couldn't be taken out by a lone skulk. The turrets also HURT, and you were able to place FOUR of them in a much wider area. Oh, they also had a 360 degree field of view. Did I mention the batteries had almost three times as much health/armor too? Oh, and in NS1 the turret damage was the same as the LMG, and it also gained from arms lab upgrades too. Let's compare:<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1--> NS1 NS2 --- --- Sentry health 1300 500 Sentry armor 0 100 Sentry total* 1300 700
*total effective health when attacked by a skulk<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> Keep in mind skulk health armor in NS1 is the same as in NS2. Is it starting to make sense how badly they have been nerfed?
Perhaps we could change sentries to just allow a maximum of one on the map at a time (globally). Though in return we make that one turret a lot stronger, with a better FOV, and doesn't need a sentry battery (but does need power). It would of course need to be more expensive and take longer to build to compensate.
It would mean you would have to choose only one room to put up a turret, but that one turret protects that area a lot better. If left alone it could still go down eventually to lone aliens, and would easily fall to a co-ordinated push, but it would definitely waste time for the aliens side.
Perhaps we could change sentry batteries to emergency power batteries, that could power anything (would require new upgrade). It would have a lot more offensive/defensive uses. Like with the new big sentry you could ninja set-up a phase + sentry.
<!--quoteo(post=2063163:date=Jan 19 2013, 10:58 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, I'd like to explore non "Learn to Play" ways to balance this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing that has been said that may balance pubs a little is electrify but I still stand by what I said pre-release.. the second it's implemented there will just be a new noob that goes "electrify OP *rant rant rant*". When really, it's probably the cost of JP that's the issue etc etc.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2063866:date=Jan 20 2013, 12:36 PM:name=Terranigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terranigma @ Jan 20 2013, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So why did they include turrets if they want them to be useless and a waste of ressources? I don't get this kind of reasoning. That's like the aliens got a lifeform which is <b>supposed</b> to be ineffective. I can hardly belive UWE intended turrets to be broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There intent was to make sentries a form of marine support rather than a standalone defense. However, they've never really gotten it right so to prevent the type of sentry spam that was oh so common in the beta, they nerfed them just before release.
<!--quoteo(post=2063163:date=Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want talk about buffing the marines ability to hold RT. Marines need to babysit and rebuild the extractors far too often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not as often as the aliens. Good marine teams can and will harass alien RTs or hives just as often if not more than aliens can.
<!--quoteo(post=2063163:date=Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about having 4 sentries per room? or Two sentry batteries per room and only 2 sentries?
I want to hear CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on this idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much the worst "solution" you can come up with to your "problem." Sentries (as well as whips, hydras, etc. etc. etc.) were never designed to be left alone. They're designed to HELP players fight, NOT replace players.
<!--quoteo(post=2063163:date=Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people don't talk me out of it, I am thinking of writing a mod. I will learn LUA and see if I can implment this simple change. I wish UWE would chime in on this too. Maybe I gave them a new idea on how to solve this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2063773:date=Jan 20 2013, 12:37 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Jan 20 2013, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is the name of your mod going to be? MrChoke's I-Don't-Want-To-L2P-So-Lets-Build-Sentries-Extravaganza?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh, Mr. Troll is back. Good. Get a life. I am trying to make the game better, unlike you, sitting on your dead a$$ trolling the forum.
I want to explore how to learn to drive a car better. Currently I am only using my feet to steer. Any trolls that want to tell me to use my hands instead, please go away and troll another "Learn to Drive" thread. Ok now let's have a meaningful discussion about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do all the comptetive players not know how to play either? Maybe only you know. You must be the NS2 GOD SUPREME! Too bad you can't see how much I bow to your all powerful marine skills.
<!--quoteo(post=2063974:date=Jan 20 2013, 07:29 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Jan 20 2013, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not as often as the aliens. Good marine teams can and will harass alien RTs or hives just as often if not more than aliens can.
Pretty much the worst "solution" you can come up with to your "problem." Sentries (as well as whips, hydras, etc. etc. etc.) were never designed to be left alone. They're designed to HELP players fight, NOT replace players.
Good luck with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK BUDDY. YOU FIX THE GAME. YOU ARE ALL TALK AND NO ACTION I AM SURE. Do you have anything constructive to say? If not, SHUT UP.
I think people generally have this huge misconception of what a sentry farm is intended to do in NS2.
Sentries aren't meant to be complete room denial. They aren't meant to be set down next to an RT and, suddenly, this RT is unassailable by anything less than 3-4 enemy players. The purpose of the sentry is<b> <i>deterrence</i></b>.
Sentry farms are there to <i><u>deter</u></i> enemy advances. As a skulk, you are somewhat wary of sentries, because you know they can chew you up if you stay exposed to them, but it is often possible to bypass them or outright destroy them with some clever maneuvering. Anything higher than a skulk can often outright ignore them, <i>for a short amount of time</i>. This is the same with alien Whip patches. Do you think a couple Whips are going to keep a<b> determined</b> marine out of an area? Of course not, but it will repel marines less-determined to make the push, and in all cases, it WILL slow down marine advancement. Sentries are the same way; a gorge can spit and bile at it, but that time spent killing it (nearly the same amount of time a marine takes to kill a whip) is time spent not accomplishing anything else, like attacking critical buildings. Whips and sentries are good deterrence.
As somebody said prior to me, sentries are meant to work in tandem with marines, not be a standing force to be reckoned with. A good sentry farm placement would be areas that <i><b><u>BOTH</u></b></i> marines and aliens are currently frequenting. Say, a forward marine base in Y-Junction, made as a position for marines to gather at to attack an alien-held Nano-Grid. Putting a sentry farm in the midst of this forward marine base will most certainly not stop the countless skulks that will be coming <u>by itself</u>, but working <u>WITH</u> marines there to defend it, the damage of a sentry farm causes enough attrition from its small but continuous automatic damage to, hopefully, help marines keep the upper hand and deal with attacks on this base.
Another use of a sentry farm, although some may consider it a waste, would be one at a not-often-frequented RT. Say, mid-game, the RT that is adjacent to the marine base. Phase-gates are up, this section of the map is no longer often traveled by marines because they can use PGs to get where they need to go. Lone Skulks often enjoy sneaking into these areas to harass resource production; a valid, if annoying, tactic. A sentry farm here will deter that lone skulk, but not indefinitely; if that skulk is determined, he will find a way to either harass the RT or harass the sentry farm/battery. Either way, the sentry farm adds to the time necessary for the skulk to do its deed, much more time than it normally would have taken to destroy the RT... and hopefully, enough bought time for a marine to respond. A 20res investment of a sentry farm, coupled with good reaction times from marines should the RT/sentries come under raid, can often save a 10res RT investment from because a 50+res RT dump, gained from constantly rebuilding the destroyed RT. It will reduce marine player times spent responding to raids as well. I see this as a win-win, although it comes at a cost.
Sentries have a place in NS2, it's just that most players do not understand just what that place is.
<!--quoteo(post=2063997:date=Jan 20 2013, 08:31 PM:name=The Essential Moon Man)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Essential Moon Man @ Jan 20 2013, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries have a place in NS2, it's just that most players do not understand just what that place is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in the back of the broom closet?
I believe sentries are broken right now. They are too expensive for what they do so people that have a lot of experience playing NEVER use them. Competitive teams NEVER use them. I think it would help if they were cheaper. Maybe limit the amount you can have to like... 3 clusters on the entire map? They might be somewhat useful early game, but resources come in so slow in the beginning it hurts waaaay more than it helps.
Idea: Replace sentries entirely with a Overcharge Battery.
Costs 15 res One per room Attaches to a single structure Gives the structure a damage AoE of about 2 meters Deals 10 damage per second (adjustable) to everything in it's AoE Enough HP that a single skulk cannot kill it without backing of and regenerating Independant of room power Cannot be attached to a CC
Like sentries + electrify, but can be made available soon enough to have an impact, as well as not limited to defending a res node, or murdering skulks from across the room
Hot damn, Im just gonna place this in I & S and see what happens!
<!--quoteo(post=2063995:date=Jan 20 2013, 06:27 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 20 2013, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK BUDDY. YOU FIX THE GAME. YOU ARE ALL TALK AND NO ACTION I AM SURE. Do you have anything constructive to say? If not, SHUT UP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have 3 ideas, each one is to be taken separately.
1: Start marines off with robotics factory and increase the cost to upgrade it to produce arcs to compensate, see how building macs and turret batteries at the start of the game effect gameplay.
2: Make turrets only fire on aliens that make sound, but remove the battery requirement, give them 360 degree radius, and increase their damage. forcing aliens to literally tip toe into a room and angle themselves behind a RT slows down rez tower kills a lot and gives marines time to react and increased damage will allow them to scale into late game against noisy fades and onoses.
3: Allow marines to spend prez on personnel remote control turrets. They can build only one of these and when an alien gets close to the marines turret, no matter where the marine is on the map they will hear a beeping that gets faster the closer an alien is. They can then switch to weapons slot number 5 to open up a weapons display in their helmet visor to control the turret by remote control. A north, south, west or east display arrow will appear to give them a general idea of where threats are but no specifics. the turret has a 100 round clip and does as much damage as an LMG but will not fire unless a marine is directly remote controlling it.
Comments
Actually the more I think about it, I rather like this and hope you might support it its own thread. I don't think buffing turrets is the right dimension to help marines right now, but electrify would do a lot to balance this game, I believe.
which is:
MARINES HAVE WAY MORE RESPONSIBILITY THAN SKULKS.
both cost zero res, and when a skulk dies meh who cares, marine dies? TIME FOR A 20 MINUTE WALK. Marines shouldn't require phasegates to function, phase gates should be an ADVANTAGE, not a REQUIREMENT-TO-HAVE-ANY-CHANCE-AT-ALL
2) Ok, not a bad idea. Do you think someone can mod it? No way I could.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Gorges take 3 spits to kill a mine. Mines are greatly viable until bile bomb or aggressive cysts get infestation on them.
2) Assuming I took the time to learn more LUA than I have so far, it wouldn't be too hard to add it to turret AI. Of course, that's assuming the bile bomb projectile can be shot down in the first place.
EDIT: I'd support sentries more like NS1 if you needed a Robotics Factory to build them (and required functional for all turrets to worK), they were dependent on room power, and there was a limit of 3-4 per room. This would make it okay for them to have 360 degree functionality, and perhaps a range increase.
EDIT: The turrets would require a functional Robotics Factory on the map to work, not one per every room. That's just messy.
Playing Veil, players are constantly terrified that instead of putting a PG in sub hive, and dbl, and y-junction, i simply place a PG in System waypointing. I try to explain that a PG here can help us defend all the RTs on the left side of the map, better than one in sub can, and let's us defend the Rts in dbl, and we can pressure the cargo hive. They are baffled and call me noobie. I try and explain it, but they don't buy it. You know what else they don't buy? the Mines i researched first so as to protect our PG interests across the map. I usually have to get out as the commander and place mines to cover our Pgs, because my team thinks its a waste of res and just want shotguns.
I try and explain that when weapons 1 comes online, i'll make sure there are sgs, until then they aren't super useful, and there are better upgrades to get. then i get called noob for not turreting base.
THATS WHY MARINES LOSE EVERYGAME.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I relate to this so much.
Me: Hey guys, I just started researching mines.
Me: Mines are up.
5 mins later
Random Marine: Hey, we have mines.
Random Marine #2: Mines are useless, can we have shotguns?
Edit:
I like to subscribe to the philosophy that marines will weld/place mines/burn structures if you provide the tools.
That is:
If you want marines to weld things, research welders and they'll do it without being told.
The same goes for Flamethrowers, and alien buildings.
The problem is that a lot of marines seem to think Flamethrowers are great for taking out aliens(They're Okay at it, because of the DoT).
I rarely research Grenade Launchers, and only if I already have jetpacks and dual Exos.
With electrify, a huge burden and waste of time could be removed, plus that winning as an alien can be less about destroying extractors and more about actually using some skills.
There's balancing, and then there's balancing that makes things more fun. I wonder when UWE are going to try the later.
I want to explore how to learn to drive a car better. Currently I am only using my feet to steer. Any trolls that want to tell me to use my hands instead, please go away and troll another "Learn to Drive" thread. Ok now let's have a meaningful discussion about this.
I want to explore how to learn to drive a car better. Currently I am only using my feet to steer. Any trolls that want to tell me to use my hands instead, please go away and troll another "Learn to Drive" thread. Ok now let's have a meaningful discussion about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ignore him, I think this is what you would call a scarecrow argument, a logical fallacy.
I want to explore how to learn to drive a car better. Currently I am only using my feet to steer. Any trolls that want to tell me to use my hands instead, please go away and troll another "Learn to Drive" thread. Ok now let's have a meaningful discussion about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2063840:date=Jan 20 2013, 02:42 PM:name=yehawmcgraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yehawmcgraw @ Jan 20 2013, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ignore him, I think this is what you would call a scarecrow argument, a logical fallacy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He complained aliens win too much because turrets aren't doing their job protecting extractors and suggested more turrets allowed per room. You're right, that not driving with your feet, that's driving with your head up your ass.
So why did they include turrets if they want them to be useless and a waste of ressources? I don't get this kind of reasoning. That's like the aliens got a lifeform which is <b>supposed</b> to be ineffective. I can hardly belive UWE intended turrets to be broken.
i've always had the impression that they were included to delay the single skulk from killing your stuff as quickly... and to assist the reinforcing marine. sometimes i advocate the commander throwing up a sentry nest at a resnode because i'm tired of rebuilding the damn res tower because of the rush distance from the closest pg.
If only i could Mod....
Consider it. Since sentry damage is really only of risk to skulks, then the key period to have sentries would be in the beginning. Sentries aren't going to stop a gorge/lerk/onos at all. The first two fire at range and the last just LOLs at sentries and decimates them.
Back in NS1 sentries were so powerful that it was near impossible for a single skulk or gorge to bust a base. (it happened only if the turret factory was put in a bad spot)
The turret factory (basically what we call a sentry battery now) could be electrified, so it couldn't be taken out by a lone skulk. The turrets also HURT, and you were able to place FOUR of them in a much wider area. Oh, they also had a 360 degree field of view. Did I mention the batteries had almost three times as much health/armor too? Oh, and in NS1 the turret damage was the same as the LMG, and it also gained from arms lab upgrades too. Let's compare:<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1--> NS1 NS2
--- ---
Sentry health 1300 500
Sentry armor 0 100
Sentry total* 1300 700
Battery health 3000 600
Battery armor 0 200
Battery total* 3000 1000
*total effective health when attacked by a skulk<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Keep in mind skulk health armor in NS1 is the same as in NS2. Is it starting to make sense how badly they have been nerfed?
Though in return we make that one turret a lot stronger, with a better FOV, and doesn't need a sentry battery (but does need power).
It would of course need to be more expensive and take longer to build to compensate.
It would mean you would have to choose only one room to put up a turret, but that one turret protects that area a lot better.
If left alone it could still go down eventually to lone aliens, and would easily fall to a co-ordinated push, but it would definitely waste time for the aliens side.
Perhaps we could change sentry batteries to emergency power batteries, that could power anything (would require new upgrade). It would have a lot more offensive/defensive uses. Like with the new big sentry you could ninja set-up a phase + sentry.
<img src="http://i.qkme.me/356rkj.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The only thing that has been said that may balance pubs a little is electrify but I still stand by what I said pre-release.. the second it's implemented there will just be a new noob that goes "electrify OP *rant rant rant*". When really, it's probably the cost of JP that's the issue etc etc.
There intent was to make sentries a form of marine support rather than a standalone defense. However, they've never really gotten it right so to prevent the type of sentry spam that was oh so common in the beta, they nerfed them just before release.
Not as often as the aliens. Good marine teams can and will harass alien RTs or hives just as often if not more than aliens can.
<!--quoteo(post=2063163:date=Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about having 4 sentries per room?
or
Two sentry batteries per room and only 2 sentries?
I want to hear CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on this idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much the worst "solution" you can come up with to your "problem." Sentries (as well as whips, hydras, etc. etc. etc.) were never designed to be left alone. They're designed to HELP players fight, NOT replace players.
<!--quoteo(post=2063163:date=Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 19 2013, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people don't talk me out of it, I am thinking of writing a mod. I will learn LUA and see if I can implment this simple change. I wish UWE would chime in on this too. Maybe I gave them a new idea on how to solve this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good luck with that one.
Ahhh, Mr. Troll is back. Good. Get a life. I am trying to make the game better, unlike you, sitting on your dead a$$ trolling the forum.
I want to explore how to learn to drive a car better. Currently I am only using my feet to steer. Any trolls that want to tell me to use my hands instead, please go away and troll another "Learn to Drive" thread. Ok now let's have a meaningful discussion about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do all the comptetive players not know how to play either? Maybe only you know. You must be the NS2 GOD SUPREME! Too bad you can't see how much I bow to your all powerful marine skills.
Pretty much the worst "solution" you can come up with to your "problem." Sentries (as well as whips, hydras, etc. etc. etc.) were never designed to be left alone. They're designed to HELP players fight, NOT replace players.
Good luck with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK BUDDY. YOU FIX THE GAME. YOU ARE ALL TALK AND NO ACTION I AM SURE. Do you have anything constructive to say? If not, SHUT UP.
Sentries aren't meant to be complete room denial. They aren't meant to be set down next to an RT and, suddenly, this RT is unassailable by anything less than 3-4 enemy players. The purpose of the sentry is<b> <i>deterrence</i></b>.
Sentry farms are there to <i><u>deter</u></i> enemy advances. As a skulk, you are somewhat wary of sentries, because you know they can chew you up if you stay exposed to them, but it is often possible to bypass them or outright destroy them with some clever maneuvering. Anything higher than a skulk can often outright ignore them, <i>for a short amount of time</i>. This is the same with alien Whip patches. Do you think a couple Whips are going to keep a<b> determined</b> marine out of an area? Of course not, but it will repel marines less-determined to make the push, and in all cases, it WILL slow down marine advancement. Sentries are the same way; a gorge can spit and bile at it, but that time spent killing it (nearly the same amount of time a marine takes to kill a whip) is time spent not accomplishing anything else, like attacking critical buildings. Whips and sentries are good deterrence.
As somebody said prior to me, sentries are meant to work in tandem with marines, not be a standing force to be reckoned with. A good sentry farm placement would be areas that <i><b><u>BOTH</u></b></i> marines and aliens are currently frequenting. Say, a forward marine base in Y-Junction, made as a position for marines to gather at to attack an alien-held Nano-Grid. Putting a sentry farm in the midst of this forward marine base will most certainly not stop the countless skulks that will be coming <u>by itself</u>, but working <u>WITH</u> marines there to defend it, the damage of a sentry farm causes enough attrition from its small but continuous automatic damage to, hopefully, help marines keep the upper hand and deal with attacks on this base.
Another use of a sentry farm, although some may consider it a waste, would be one at a not-often-frequented RT. Say, mid-game, the RT that is adjacent to the marine base. Phase-gates are up, this section of the map is no longer often traveled by marines because they can use PGs to get where they need to go. Lone Skulks often enjoy sneaking into these areas to harass resource production; a valid, if annoying, tactic. A sentry farm here will deter that lone skulk, but not indefinitely; if that skulk is determined, he will find a way to either harass the RT or harass the sentry farm/battery. Either way, the sentry farm adds to the time necessary for the skulk to do its deed, much more time than it normally would have taken to destroy the RT... and hopefully, enough bought time for a marine to respond. A 20res investment of a sentry farm, coupled with good reaction times from marines should the RT/sentries come under raid, can often save a 10res RT investment from because a 50+res RT dump, gained from constantly rebuilding the destroyed RT. It will reduce marine player times spent responding to raids as well. I see this as a win-win, although it comes at a cost.
Sentries have a place in NS2, it's just that most players do not understand just what that place is.
in the back of the broom closet?
I believe sentries are broken right now. They are too expensive for what they do so people that have a lot of experience playing NEVER use them. Competitive teams NEVER use them. I think it would help if they were cheaper. Maybe limit the amount you can have to like... 3 clusters on the entire map? They might be somewhat useful early game, but resources come in so slow in the beginning it hurts waaaay more than it helps.
Costs 15 res
One per room
Attaches to a single structure
Gives the structure a damage AoE of about 2 meters
Deals 10 damage per second (adjustable) to everything in it's AoE
Enough HP that a single skulk cannot kill it without backing of and regenerating
Independant of room power
Cannot be attached to a CC
Like sentries + electrify, but can be made available soon enough to have an impact, as well as not limited to defending a res node, or murdering skulks from across the room
Hot damn, Im just gonna place this in I & S and see what happens!
No, you, buddy.
1: Start marines off with robotics factory and increase the cost to upgrade it to produce arcs to compensate, see how building macs and turret batteries at the start of the game effect gameplay.
2: Make turrets only fire on aliens that make sound, but remove the battery requirement, give them 360 degree radius, and increase their damage. forcing aliens to literally tip toe into a room and angle themselves behind a RT slows down rez tower kills a lot and gives marines time to react and increased damage will allow them to scale into late game against noisy fades and onoses.
3: Allow marines to spend prez on personnel remote control turrets. They can build only one of these and when an alien gets close to the marines turret, no matter where the marine is on the map they will hear a beeping that gets faster the closer an alien is. They can then switch to weapons slot number 5 to open up a weapons display in their helmet visor to control the turret by remote control. A north, south, west or east display arrow will appear to give them a general idea of where threats are but no specifics. the turret has a 100 round clip and does as much damage as an LMG but will not fire unless a marine is directly remote controlling it.