Silence is golden. You can already hide pretty easily in most places so camo isn't that needed. Silence also alieviates the noobs camo creeping around the map. Silence also allows you to run up from behind and most of the time kill a person before they realize they are being bitten.
Therefore, there is no such thing as a "GG WE LOSE" hive.
Camo first is PERFECTLY VIABLE.
Not to mention it's bloody cheap.
You can argue to kingdom come whether or not camo is OPTIMAL, but there is no way you can say it's INSTA LOSS or "just no".
Edit: For the sake of random arguments, the only real downside I see to camo is that YOU MUST secure 3 hive locations or you're in very bad shape. But it doesn't make shade first nonviable, it's just a different way of doing things.
<!--quoteo(post=2061466:date=Jan 16 2013, 07:15 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 16 2013, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>NORMAL SKULKS ARE PERFECTLY VIABLE.</b>
Therefore, there is no such thing as a "GG WE LOSE" hive.
Camo first is PERFECTLY VIABLE.
Not to mention it's bloody cheap.
You can argue to kingdom come whether or not camo is OPTIMAL, but there is no way you can say it's INSTA LOSS or "just no".
Edit: For the sake of random arguments, the only real downside I see to camo is that YOU MUST secure 3 hive locations or you're in very bad shape. But it doesn't make shade first nonviable, it's just a different way of doing things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG REASON! BURN HIM!
I'm a "no shade first" guy, but that's based on experience trying it (and being forced to try it) and seeing it fail more often than not, and usually for the oft posted reasons. That doesn't mean it will always fail, or that it isn't sometimes the right call... but there's rarely cause for flat out calling something a total fail build that does still work under the right circumstances.
FWIW, I see shade first as a rush down build. If you don't know the ability of your team to execute such a play, be very cautious about going shade first as a general combat strategy.
Scans and observatories cost lots of team res, and slow tech/structure progression. It is not a free counter to shade. Cloak's worth is in it's usage, along with shade structures. More experience required, cloak is not a passive always on buff like cara/celery. Also, there's an elitist, anti-shade point of view people love to adopt, which generally results in disdain for it.
Shade is great, but so is shift and crag. Should give all an open minded shot.
Fast Camo puts a TON of pressure on the marine comm and gives your bad skulks a good shot at getting a kill before they croak at first encounter.
There are a lot of marine comms who can't stand up against the extra management scans and forward obs they'll need to drop. And further there are a lot of marines who won't keep good spacing to cover each other and move in just one-two groups when camo is identified.
Skilled players vs skilled players I'd take silence too, but the odds of camo putting too much burden on the marines is good enough to make camo a solid pub-crutch.
camo is terrible when used agressively to take control of areas the marines have already built up. It is also not particualrly effective when marines push an area with scans.
once you have 2 hives and the marines maybe 2 or 3 tech points its very difficult to take a 3rd tech point when 1 of your hives is lumbering your team with camo, you absolutely need crag hive for base defence and cara late game so you end up with cara and camo skulks which becoem just cara skulks with no celerity when they attack a fortified position with an obs.
Why on earth would you do that, it's incredibly silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they're idiots. I've seen it numerous times myself. It's almost like some players don't realize that being cloaked slows you down immensely, so they'll remain in the mode and slowly walk from one end of the map to the other rather than moving near enemy territory, then cloaking.
It doesnt matter which hive u get first. Good players can play with every upgrade. Bad players will be bad with any upgrade :>. U will not lose a game because a comm get shade first. That argument is just bull######.
Slows the game right down for both sides which a lot of people hate, smart marines will just rush 3 tech points instead of blindly rushing RTs and once they're up they can easily take back RTs or at least kill yours, marines will nearly always win the tech war comes late game and camo will feel especially horrible trying to take back a base with obs in it.
<!--quoteo(post=2061642:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:49 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Jan 17 2013, 08:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesnt matter which hive u get first. Good players can play with every upgrade. Bad players will be bad with any upgrade :>. U will not lose a game because a comm get shade first. That argument is just bull######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bingo, different strats are viable...was not long ago we where plagued with "OMG Camo is OP'd threads". Why because people didn't understand that it changed the game from a res war to a tech point war.
Some players get lazy with shade sure....but people also get lazy with carapace and other upgrades too. They all have trade offs, its just that shade actually causes the game to be played with a different mindset if the marines want to win.
You go camo first and the marines suddenly start fearing walking in groups of less than 3, want obs in every room or a scan as they enter. Either way they are wasting res that would otherwise be spent on upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=2061772:date=Jan 16 2013, 10:03 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 16 2013, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You go camo first and the marines suddenly start fearing walking in groups of less than 3 [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a pretty big point though. One of the biggest problems marines have is that they often times (more frequently the newer you are) run off and rambo. This is a primary reason marines lose, not working together enough. Camo makes them work together, which makes life hell for aliens. Couple that with the propensity for newer players to go Camo first, and you start to see where it becomes a problem.
I am not saying that Camo first = lose.
I am saying that when you go Camo first, you make the slippery slope much slipperier.
<!--quoteo(post=2060996:date=Jan 15 2013, 04:25 PM:name=Angry Child)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angry Child @ Jan 15 2013, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can feasibly go any hive first, its just depends on first of all how good your teammates and communication skills are, and secondly what the overall strategy for your team is, You could go silence first for all that it mattered, it just requires good execution<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That can be said about anything. I could never get phase tech and have everyone go exo and win. <i>if executed well</i>
Comments
But shade first still leaves much to be desired.
Therefore, there is no such thing as a "GG WE LOSE" hive.
Camo first is PERFECTLY VIABLE.
Not to mention it's bloody cheap.
You can argue to kingdom come whether or not camo is OPTIMAL, but there is no way you can say it's INSTA LOSS or "just no".
Edit: For the sake of random arguments, the only real downside I see to camo is that YOU MUST secure 3 hive locations or you're in very bad shape. But it doesn't make shade first nonviable, it's just a different way of doing things.
Therefore, there is no such thing as a "GG WE LOSE" hive.
Camo first is PERFECTLY VIABLE.
Not to mention it's bloody cheap.
You can argue to kingdom come whether or not camo is OPTIMAL, but there is no way you can say it's INSTA LOSS or "just no".
Edit: For the sake of random arguments, the only real downside I see to camo is that YOU MUST secure 3 hive locations or you're in very bad shape. But it doesn't make shade first nonviable, it's just a different way of doing things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG REASON! BURN HIM!
I'm a "no shade first" guy, but that's based on experience trying it (and being forced to try it) and seeing it fail more often than not, and usually for the oft posted reasons. That doesn't mean it will always fail, or that it isn't sometimes the right call... but there's rarely cause for flat out calling something a total fail build that does still work under the right circumstances.
FWIW, I see shade first as a rush down build. If you don't know the ability of your team to execute such a play, be very cautious about going shade first as a general combat strategy.
Cloak's worth is in it's usage, along with shade structures. More experience required, cloak is not a passive always on buff like cara/celery. Also, there's an elitist, anti-shade point of view people love to adopt, which generally results in disdain for it.
Shade is great, but so is shift and crag. Should give all an open minded shot.
There are a lot of marine comms who can't stand up against the extra management scans and forward obs they'll need to drop. And further there are a lot of marines who won't keep good spacing to cover each other and move in just one-two groups when camo is identified.
Skilled players vs skilled players I'd take silence too, but the odds of camo putting too much burden on the marines is good enough to make camo a solid pub-crutch.
once you have 2 hives and the marines maybe 2 or 3 tech points its very difficult to take a 3rd tech point when 1 of your hives is lumbering your team with camo, you absolutely need crag hive for base defence and cara late game so you end up with cara and camo skulks which becoem just cara skulks with no celerity when they attack a fortified position with an obs.
People... actually do that?
Why on earth would you do that, it's incredibly silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they're idiots. I've seen it numerous times myself. It's almost like some players don't realize that being cloaked slows you down immensely, so they'll remain in the mode and slowly walk from one end of the map to the other rather than moving near enemy territory, then cloaking.
Bingo, different strats are viable...was not long ago we where plagued with "OMG Camo is OP'd threads".
Why because people didn't understand that it changed the game from a res war to a tech point war.
Some players get lazy with shade sure....but people also get lazy with carapace and other upgrades too.
They all have trade offs, its just that shade actually causes the game to be played with a different mindset if the marines want to win.
You go camo first and the marines suddenly start fearing walking in groups of less than 3, want obs in every room or a scan as they enter.
Either way they are wasting res that would otherwise be spent on upgrades.
This is a pretty big point though. One of the biggest problems marines have is that they often times (more frequently the newer you are) run off and rambo. This is a primary reason marines lose, not working together enough. Camo makes them work together, which makes life hell for aliens. Couple that with the propensity for newer players to go Camo first, and you start to see where it becomes a problem.
I am not saying that Camo first = lose.
I am saying that when you go Camo first, you make the slippery slope much slipperier.
That can be said about anything. I could never get phase tech and have everyone go exo and win. <i>if executed well</i>