Why not camouflage first!
xXAmphibiaXX
Join Date: 2013-01-14 Member: 179610Members
Join Date: 2013-01-14 Member: 179610Members
My question to the NS2 community is why commanders always get camouflage last. I mean it is far the most helpful perk but instead they get adrenaline or something..... WHY!
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Thanks :)
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip*
Your videos have absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Thanks :)
Comments
You go Camo first, Fade hits the field on 2nd hive... a Camo / Celerity Fade is a joke. Same with Camo Lerk, before the 2nd Hive. If you got Cara for 2nd Hive, your life forms are still inherently weaker than if the Fade had Adrenaline/Celerity + Carapace/Regen and same for Lerk.
You essentially trade your higher life forms ability to scale to Marine upgrades in combat for (hopefully) established, better map control around your Skulks ability to stay hidden.
Combined with the fact that most pub server skulks don't use Camo properly, slow walking from starting Hive to opposite side while camouflaged the entire time rather than getting into position and cloaking.... at that point you're sacrificing mobility as well.
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Your videos have absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Thanks :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a nutshell:
Camo first inspires newer players to slowly creep across the map to "stay cloaked" taking away the speed advantage aliens enjoy.
Camo first means (depending on the server size) respawn will be slower.
Camo first will mean (depending on the number of tech points) you will have a harder time getting the third hive without Crag or Shift.
Camo is quickly and handedly hard countered by scanner sweeps and observatories.
The effectiveness of Camo greatly depends on the skill of the alien players; the better they are, the more effective camo is, the worse they are the less effective camo is.
Camo first is just no.
Nothing is more useless than rushing adrenaline.
Nothing is more useless than rushing adrenaline.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
my RT & hive building and healing gorge disagrees. it takes minutes of your tech tree.
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Too many rookies
Too many players that, even when told nicely how to utilize camo/walking, when and how, they still don't use it
Egglock.
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Some khamms do but they are in the minority, mostly the reason its left till last is part legacy from ns1 and also that it means you have to have a 3rd hive (so not great strat for Veil with only 4 tech points).
When done right it is a very damaging 1st hive and forces marines to totally change how they play.
It has its down sides...but I agree its great to use up front and slows a marine team down and forces them to group up and not go solo.
I'd rather drop an Shift next to that Hive/Gorge, instead of rushing Adren for the whole team in that situation.
The Shift enables egg spawning at the building Hive regens Adren, it's also cheaper compared to getting the Adren upgrade.
I love adren as a Gorge but as Khamm it's usually somewhat low priority to me.
first, you have the rookies who have no idea how to use it properly.
second, is the vets which knows how to counter it easily with scan
third, is the pros which find it cheap and also easy to counter
last is the, team with a few decent alien players facing a rookie commander (only time it works, cheaply I might add). Being on the recieving end of of this group makes your rage more than anything because you suffer more than usually from a bad commanders awareness and APM.
agreed, silence over camo anytime.
If you want to camo yourself, find some real shade...silence will take you there safely.
??
People... actually do that?
Why on earth would you do that, it's incredibly silly.
I think its still fairly untried by good players.
In my opinion the people stating it can be "countered" by scans are not taking into account the fact that scanning every room is very resource intensive, setting back upgrades and teching significantly. Further, good skulks can avoid this "counter" in many situations by running away when they get scanned and then coming back. The thing about camo is that the aliens have to be very aggressive, you can't just wait in the tech points or you will get scanned for sure.
You shouldn't get egg locked with camo because your skulks should do better in the early game.
Regarding higher lifeforms, as we were just discussing in another post, fades these days barely benefit from movement upgrades, however, onos, gorges and lerks all suffer from a lack of movement upgrades. I would argue however that with hopefully improved early game performance, and fades a team should be able to secure a 3rd hive on most maps, veil might not be the best map to try it on though.
If there was focus it would be amazing.
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Your videos have absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
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Basically, mid to late game, you're gonna need adrenaline for any lifeform but perhaps the skulk (bile bomb+heal, spores, blink, onos charge). And you most definitely need the carapace upgrade, really, carapace is just so damn important to counter the marine upgrades. So, when you go shade hive first, and you get stuck at two hive max, you're gonna have some serious troubles in the late game. Picking shade hive first is not that bad though, but you'll need to capitalise on it immediately and just take map control from the beginning. If you don't, you're screwed later on. So it's a bit of a gamble. While getting shift or crag first is a safer strategy.
There used to be a time when commanders would do nothing but shade hive first though, with mixed results as you can imagine. :)
I think its still fairly untried by good players.
In my opinion the people stating it can be "countered" by scans are not taking into account the fact that scanning every room is very resource intensive, setting back upgrades and teching significantly. Further, good skulks can avoid this "counter" in many situations by running away when they get scanned and then coming back. The thing about camo is that the aliens have to be very aggressive, you can't just wait in the tech points or you will get scanned for sure.
You shouldn't get egg locked with camo because your skulks should do better in the early game.
Regarding higher lifeforms, as we were just discussing in another post, fades these days barely benefit from movement upgrades, however, onos, gorges and lerks all suffer from a lack of movement upgrades. I would argue however that with hopefully improved early game performance, and fades a team should be able to secure a 3rd hive on most maps, veil might not be the best map to try it on though.
If there was focus it would be amazing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IF you can secure 3 bases with camo first, aliens would have won with an afk commander and 1 res tower for all intensive purposes.
<!--quoteo(post=2061115:date=Jan 15 2013, 09:02 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Jan 15 2013, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens would have won with an afk commander and 1 res tower for all intensive purposes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2061115:date=Jan 15 2013, 09:02 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Jan 15 2013, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and 1 res tower for all intensive purposes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2061115:date=Jan 15 2013, 09:02 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Jan 15 2013, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->intensive purposes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...speed advantage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2061154:date=Jan 15 2013, 09:30 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 15 2013, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Silence is better than camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends. I definitely like using silence myself because it helps me keep full mobility while still offering some benefit even if I'm not actively trying to use it. Camo is generally more useful for getting to melee range undetected, it's also more effective for setting up an ambush or for sneaking in a ninja gorge (if you are already there or can get there easily, silence will buy the gorge more shots before he's found).
Like with celerity over adrenaline, if you are going shade as a first hive Camo is going to be the upgrade to rush. Silence tends to be more valuable later in the game with more advanced lifeforms and or upgrades, and with more obs scattered across the map.
Like with celerity over adrenaline, if you are going shade as a first hive Camo is going to be the upgrade to rush. Silence tends to be more valuable later in the game with more advanced lifeforms and or upgrades, and with more obs scattered across the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find silence better than camo off the bat, at least against good players.
Good players use sound cues(Usually headphones/headsets, sometimes surround sound), silence negates that completely.
Which doesn't really make sense, since Silence and Camo <i>combined</i> are roughly as expensive as any other <i>single</i> upgrade. There's really no reason not to get both right away if you're going shade first. (Off the top of my head, veils cost 5 each and 10 to upgrade; shells are 15 each, plus 10 or 15 to upgrade; spurs are 10 each, 15 to upgrade.)
Yet, I always have to ask for Silence several minutes in. :-(
Otherwise the trait is too limiting for late game as many have said.