<!--quoteo(post=2061379:date=Jan 16 2013, 11:24 AM:name=nsguy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nsguy @ Jan 16 2013, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It depends on what is required to get the achievements. Things like "weld an injured teammate back to full health", for example, would not only teach new players how to get a welder and that it can be done, but is also helpful for the team.
I don't see why people are so against the idea. So what if some players want to play only to get achievements? Let them. They bought the game so surely they're entitled to play it for whatever purpose they choose. In fact, it's possible in TF2 (since this is the example used) to have servers that don't award achievements, so you could play on these if it bothers you.
Personally I don't care for achievements, but just because I don't doesn't mean it shouldn't be included for those who do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main issue is as described above: what about people who buy the game to troll? There's precious little difference between people who vote out the commander constantly to lose the game (trolls), and people who won't do things for the good of the team because they're chasing an achievement. You're bang on the money though: if there ever was to be an achievement system in NS2, it would really HAVE to be only things like 'Weld an exo back to full health.' Just bear in mind that even these 'helpful' achievements can just be a sink for people to waste everyone else's time: imagine two friends laming the 'weld an exo' achievement - they probably wouldn't be doing anything to help the team if what they want is the achievement only! I think it's fair to say that the majority of people who play NS2 for a significant amount of time do so because they want a good teamplay game with strategy and skill at the centre.
The griefers that we see occasionally are out to ruin other people's enjoyment of the game. Achievement ######s may not be out for the same purpose, but they almost certainly would have the same effect!
<!--quoteo(post=2061379:date=Jan 16 2013, 04:24 PM:name=nsguy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nsguy @ Jan 16 2013, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It depends on what is required to get the achievements. Things like "weld an injured teammate back to full health", for example, would not only teach new players how to get a welder and that it can be done, but is also helpful for the team.
I don't see why people are so against the idea. So what if some players want to play only to get achievements? Let them. They bought the game so surely they're entitled to play it for whatever purpose they choose. In fact, it's possible in TF2 (since this is the example used) to have servers that don't award achievements, so you could play on these if it bothers you.
Personally I don't care for achievements, but just because I don't doesn't mean it shouldn't be included for those who do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The forum is highly resistant to change... I suspect due to the perception that NS2 is a fragile flower and will die horribly if you tip it too far to the mainstream.
I don't think the game needs achievements, any more than I think it needs single player... but if done right, why would you not want them? Anything that doesn't fracture the player base and promotes teamwork in games should be in the game. Done right, achievements can enhance both... why the hate? I suspect its fear of mediocrity.
<!--quoteo(post=2061534:date=Jan 16 2013, 09:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 16 2013, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The forum is highly resistant to change... I suspect due to the perception that NS2 is a fragile flower and will die horribly if you tip it too far to the mainstream.
I don't think the game needs achievements, any more than I think it needs single player... but if done right, why would you not want them? Anything that doesn't fracture the player base and promotes teamwork in games should be in the game. Done right, achievements can enhance both... why the hate? I suspect its fear of mediocrity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welding up a teammate sounds inoffensive until half your team starts doing it when they should be firing on the incoming onos. Building rts is nice but when I'm in Reactor with 4 people and they won't stop building to shoot the incoming skulks, resulting in 4 deaths. The game has no way of telling whether something you do is good in context. It just can't.
And yes people will do dumb things anyway (me included) but random awards for simple actions seem pointless at best and distracting from the actual game at worst. Even simple point distribution has been a problem since the NS1 days. The argument was "you'll never make points represent your actual value in the round" and to this day they still don't (and imo can't.)
"Done right" is incredibly easy to say but how do you make the game aware of all these things and make meaningful "achievements"? I'm open to ideas but not to being called a coward for seeing the downside.
<!--quoteo(post=2061552:date=Jan 16 2013, 09:05 PM:name=marsvin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marsvin @ Jan 16 2013, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welding up a teammate sounds inoffensive until half your team starts doing it when they should be firing on the incoming onos. Building rts is nice but when I'm in Reactor with 4 people and they won't stop building to shoot the incoming skulks, resulting in 4 deaths. The game has no way of telling whether something you do is good in context. It just can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we're supposing an achievement with the following description: "Weld a teammate to full health." It's done once. What makes you think half your team would be doing it at the same time? Perhaps on day 1 those who care about achievements will focus on it, but it wouldn't be long until everything goes back to how it is. The benefits of having achievements are that they can behave like a tutorial. Imagine a new player coming into the game and not knowing what to do. The achievements will act as a good guide.
Other achievements that certainly won't distrupt the gameplay include "play NS2 for x hours", "win x rounds", etc.
You could even divide the achievements between "training" and "gaming".
People are using achievement examples like "attain x kills" against the idea for achievements, but of course these kinds of achievements would be out of place in NS2. NS2 isn't Quake or Unreal Tournament, kills aren't the focus, so of course these achievements would have no place in the game and possibly ruin it. Achievements can work, they just have to make sense to the game. Even achievements like "kill an Onos" might be educational. Hardly anyone can kill an Onos on their own (regardless that teams tend to risk death to kill one because they are valuable) so the newcomer will question, "how do I kill an Onos?". The team's reply, "stick with the team and shoot him". Eventually it will pay off as the newcomer learns.
Achievements are useless clutter of developer time that should be spent on optimizing the game better, and developing new maps and actual content, like weapons, upgrades, lifeforms, etc.
Achievements are just a way to bring the experience together and make that last game you played feel like it actually mattered in some way now that it's over. They help give weight to the wins and losses and the points and the kill death ratios. Without achievements or at least some kind of persistent statistic the scoreboard may as well not even be there and the games may as well just end when people get tired of playing them.
Competitive play is another way to go about that, but how many people honestly have anything to do with real tournament games? Some do obviously, but not very many.
Even an achievement as simple as a number of wins still adds something to the persistence of the game experience, and comes at no cost to the games integrity or even really development resources. More varied achievements like kills with weapon/lifeform help encourage more varied playstyles and expose players to tactics they may never even have thought of trying on their own. Those type do come with a bit more of a potential downside, but I personally feel the benefits outweigh the costs.
On the other hand the more specialized an achievement the more potentially detrimental it can be to the game, so moderation is key. TF2 is an example of bad achievements for two reasons. First, many of it's achieves either cannot be earned through normal gameplay, or are much easier to earn through abnormal gameplay. Either way it encourages behaviors that are undesirable. This is further exacerbated by the fact that achievements grant tangible rewards in game (the original weapon unlocks).
<!--quoteo(post=2061801:date=Jan 16 2013, 09:11 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jan 16 2013, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there are already achievements in the game. and you can get them every game. It's a big banner across your screen that says, "Your team wins!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dammit, my achievement progress keeps resetting every game, FIX PLEASE.
Comments
I don't see why people are so against the idea. So what if some players want to play only to get achievements? Let them. They bought the game so surely they're entitled to play it for whatever purpose they choose. In fact, it's possible in TF2 (since this is the example used) to have servers that don't award achievements, so you could play on these if it bothers you.
Personally I don't care for achievements, but just because I don't doesn't mean it shouldn't be included for those who do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main issue is as described above: what about people who buy the game to troll? There's precious little difference between people who vote out the commander constantly to lose the game (trolls), and people who won't do things for the good of the team because they're chasing an achievement. You're bang on the money though: if there ever was to be an achievement system in NS2, it would really HAVE to be only things like 'Weld an exo back to full health.'
Just bear in mind that even these 'helpful' achievements can just be a sink for people to waste everyone else's time: imagine two friends laming the 'weld an exo' achievement - they probably wouldn't be doing anything to help the team if what they want is the achievement only!
I think it's fair to say that the majority of people who play NS2 for a significant amount of time do so because they want a good teamplay game with strategy and skill at the centre.
The griefers that we see occasionally are out to ruin other people's enjoyment of the game. Achievement ######s may not be out for the same purpose, but they almost certainly would have the same effect!
Adding a sense of progression to fool you into thinking, that while you're not having any fun, at least you're going somewhere.
I shed a tear :(
I don't see why people are so against the idea. So what if some players want to play only to get achievements? Let them. They bought the game so surely they're entitled to play it for whatever purpose they choose. In fact, it's possible in TF2 (since this is the example used) to have servers that don't award achievements, so you could play on these if it bothers you.
Personally I don't care for achievements, but just because I don't doesn't mean it shouldn't be included for those who do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The forum is highly resistant to change... I suspect due to the perception that NS2 is a fragile flower and will die horribly if you tip it too far to the mainstream.
I don't think the game needs achievements, any more than I think it needs single player... but if done right, why would you not want them? Anything that doesn't fracture the player base and promotes teamwork in games should be in the game. Done right, achievements can enhance both... why the hate? I suspect its fear of mediocrity.
I don't think the game needs achievements, any more than I think it needs single player... but if done right, why would you not want them? Anything that doesn't fracture the player base and promotes teamwork in games should be in the game. Done right, achievements can enhance both... why the hate? I suspect its fear of mediocrity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welding up a teammate sounds inoffensive until half your team starts doing it when they should be firing on the incoming onos. Building rts is nice but when I'm in Reactor with 4 people and they won't stop building to shoot the incoming skulks, resulting in 4 deaths. The game has no way of telling whether something you do is good in context. It just can't.
And yes people will do dumb things anyway (me included) but random awards for simple actions seem pointless at best and distracting from the actual game at worst. Even simple point distribution has been a problem since the NS1 days. The argument was "you'll never make points represent your actual value in the round" and to this day they still don't (and imo can't.)
"Done right" is incredibly easy to say but how do you make the game aware of all these things and make meaningful "achievements"? I'm open to ideas but not to being called a coward for seeing the downside.
So we're supposing an achievement with the following description: "Weld a teammate to full health." It's done once. What makes you think half your team would be doing it at the same time? Perhaps on day 1 those who care about achievements will focus on it, but it wouldn't be long until everything goes back to how it is. The benefits of having achievements are that they can behave like a tutorial. Imagine a new player coming into the game and not knowing what to do. The achievements will act as a good guide.
Other achievements that certainly won't distrupt the gameplay include "play NS2 for x hours", "win x rounds", etc.
You could even divide the achievements between "training" and "gaming".
People are using achievement examples like "attain x kills" against the idea for achievements, but of course these kinds of achievements would be out of place in NS2. NS2 isn't Quake or Unreal Tournament, kills aren't the focus, so of course these achievements would have no place in the game and possibly ruin it. Achievements can work, they just have to make sense to the game. Even achievements like "kill an Onos" might be educational. Hardly anyone can kill an Onos on their own (regardless that teams tend to risk death to kill one because they are valuable) so the newcomer will question, "how do I kill an Onos?". The team's reply, "stick with the team and shoot him". Eventually it will pay off as the newcomer learns.
Competitive play is another way to go about that, but how many people honestly have anything to do with real tournament games? Some do obviously, but not very many.
Even an achievement as simple as a number of wins still adds something to the persistence of the game experience, and comes at no cost to the games integrity or even really development resources. More varied achievements like kills with weapon/lifeform help encourage more varied playstyles and expose players to tactics they may never even have thought of trying on their own. Those type do come with a bit more of a potential downside, but I personally feel the benefits outweigh the costs.
On the other hand the more specialized an achievement the more potentially detrimental it can be to the game, so moderation is key. TF2 is an example of bad achievements for two reasons. First, many of it's achieves either cannot be earned through normal gameplay, or are much easier to earn through abnormal gameplay. Either way it encourages behaviors that are undesirable. This is further exacerbated by the fact that achievements grant tangible rewards in game (the original weapon unlocks).
Dammit, my achievement progress keeps resetting every game, FIX PLEASE.