A Gorge's Base Biling Approach
|strofix|
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A major balance factor</div>Two scenarios really brought this issue to my attention.
The first was a game I was commanding for the marine team on summit, where our starting base was in sub sector. Everything was going well. We were beating the alien team quite comprehensively with a lot of res held and they only had 2 hives. Then it began. The usual ninja gorge bile bombing. Now typically if you dedicate time and effort to stopping it, you can stop it. but sub sector is one of the worst places to be when getting bile bomb spammed. Firstly, one of the entrances has elevation, a major tactical advantage. Secondly, the base has a vent which clearly overlooks the entire base. Even while trying to get marines to defend against it, gorges continued to bile bomb us into submission.
The second was on veil, where I was playing as an alien. The game was going well, and after bile bomb was researched I decided to start doing some ninja runs on marine spawn. I had never noticed it before, but with the previous game fresh in my mind, I realized how utterly atrocious the approach to marine spawn is on veil. Massively long corridors on either side with absolutely nothing to hide behind all the way in. Even then, in order to do some real damage you actually need to get <b>inside </b>marine spawn, to get around the protective walls around the command station area.
Then I started to think about it a bit more. It really feels like all the good marine start locations, all the maps that are kind of balanced in terms of alien/marine victories, they all have really bad bile bomb approaches for gorges. Bile bomb is so influential in a game, and can turn the tide so quickly, that without standardizing things like this, balance will almost always be specifically map related.
The first was a game I was commanding for the marine team on summit, where our starting base was in sub sector. Everything was going well. We were beating the alien team quite comprehensively with a lot of res held and they only had 2 hives. Then it began. The usual ninja gorge bile bombing. Now typically if you dedicate time and effort to stopping it, you can stop it. but sub sector is one of the worst places to be when getting bile bomb spammed. Firstly, one of the entrances has elevation, a major tactical advantage. Secondly, the base has a vent which clearly overlooks the entire base. Even while trying to get marines to defend against it, gorges continued to bile bomb us into submission.
The second was on veil, where I was playing as an alien. The game was going well, and after bile bomb was researched I decided to start doing some ninja runs on marine spawn. I had never noticed it before, but with the previous game fresh in my mind, I realized how utterly atrocious the approach to marine spawn is on veil. Massively long corridors on either side with absolutely nothing to hide behind all the way in. Even then, in order to do some real damage you actually need to get <b>inside </b>marine spawn, to get around the protective walls around the command station area.
Then I started to think about it a bit more. It really feels like all the good marine start locations, all the maps that are kind of balanced in terms of alien/marine victories, they all have really bad bile bomb approaches for gorges. Bile bomb is so influential in a game, and can turn the tide so quickly, that without standardizing things like this, balance will almost always be specifically map related.
Comments
Bile is great, gorge is my favorite class in the game. Build blocking structures, make pew pew plants, heal ######, heal yourself, build stuff good faster, destroy enemy base with 30 seconds of uninterrupted bile-ing.
I actually just wish marines had a class that was similar. Like an actual class that you would buy from the armory that gave you a welder, maybe some more health or armor but no machine gun. You could build turrets interdependently of the chair and maybe weld doors or other cool marine-y things. Marine is just sorta boring for me now.
Bile is great, gorge is my favorite class in the game. Build blocking structures, make pew pew plants, heal ######, heal yourself, build stuff good faster, destroy enemy base with 30 seconds of uninterrupted bile-ing.
I actually just wish marines had a class that was similar. Like an actual class that you would buy from the armory that gave you a welder, maybe some more health or armor but no machine gun. You could build turrets interdependently of the chair and maybe weld doors or other cool marine-y things. Marine is just sorta boring for me now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm saying that, in my opinion, a lot of games are not currently being decided by the skill of the players, but rather by the layout of the map, and its interaction with certain key abilities, such as bile bomb.
But isn't being map aware and using abilities at high levels in correlation to the map a skill based thing? The team that can best execute map specific advantageous strats for their team should be the winner?
Potentially, but it isn't always an option. For example, as I mentioned in the original post, marine start on veil is essentially unbileable, unless the marine team is completely inept and unaware. The approach is simply too long and straight, and the gorge needs to reveal itself too much in order to deal damage. Whereas other tech points are rediculously vulnerable, to the point where the marine team has to dedicate a disproportionate amount of resources to defending against it.
there's differences in requirements for base entrances depending on which team starts there.
maps that aren't fixed spawns ( summit) address this with decent compromises such as all base entrances except data core.
I.e. wide open, long hallways with occasional turns
this stuff might seem unfair ( sub sector) but it's undergone countless hours of testing by many and is always done for a reason. very rarely are layouts without deep consideration and thought.
I doubt you would ever be able to find a valid balance reason for one starting room having a vent lead right into it while the others do not. Unfortunately the only way I see true balance coming about (the kind of balance needed for a truly competitive game) is to completely standardize the way a tech room is layed out. For example, no more or less than 2 entry points, a single vent placed x feet from the command station, each entrance must be y feet apart etc. At the moment I really think it is having far too big an impact.
Turtling's reliance on certain tech rooms is a prime example of this. Operations on mineshaft is all but unassailable when a marine team has bunkered down in there, whereas something like flight control on summit is essentially undefendable in the exact same circumstance.
i think the main issue with summit vent is the change in elevation from the marine base entrance which allows gorges to stand higher up and heal the hydras and the fact that the vent side entrance is ground level allowing gorges to get into it without having to build clogs to climb up.
Can't tell you how many times that I've been in that vent and marines just keep coming at me through the vent in sub. They are pretty easily dealt with, but if they come through the other vent between sub and vent, then they are almost impossible to deal with. I end up making a clog wall in that vent near my hydras, but all that does is buy me time to belly slide out the comp lab entrance and hope that there aren't any marines in there.
While annoying, gorges in that vent can be dealt with if marines use their heads. Unfortunately, most don't. And therein lies the problem.
The main reason why marines loose more often than aliens.
It's still worth discussing whether or not a single Gorge should be able to force marines to invest so much time into stopping him though. In most maps a lone Gorge bile bombing a tech point is utterly ineffective unless the base is unoccupied.
That's why I said disproportionate investment of time. What you advise will work when its one gorge annoying you in marine base while the rest of the alien team does absolutely nothing and runs around in their spawn. However in a proper game, where every player counts, sending a couple of marines around in a vent after a gorge can spell the end of one of your outposts. And before you say its one marine, it isn't one marine. One marine will never catch a gorge in those vents. Even two won't, because there are so many ways to go around them and still hit the base.
On alien side it's hilarious in a pub, however. Place second hive instantly, get two gorges on it, and bilebomb at 3 minutes.
As time goes on, Hydras become more and more obsolete too.
What could be broken now is multiple gorges focusing a structure (read: power node).
A simple, quick <b><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->fix<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> without side effects would be to limit the Bile Bomb damage over time that any structure can suffer at any given time to, say, 1,5 gorges.
So, if a gorge deals X dps to a structure, the DMG threshold is 1,5X
It could also be limited to just 1 gorge, X DMG, but I think the sweet spot is somewhere between 1 and 2.
OR, instead of using a static threshold, multiple Gorge's damage could scale logarithmically,
with a behaviour like this:
1 gorge = X dmg
2 gorges = 1,5X dmg
3 gorges = 1,75X dmg
4 gorges = 1,825X dmg
and so on
/discuss :)
EDIT: Also, giving the Marine Commander the ability to upgrade structures with a "Corrosion resistance plating", reducing damage from corrosion attacks? (Bile bomb, whip bombard)
The first was a game I was commanding for the marine team on summit, where our starting base was in sub sector. Everything was going well. We were beating the alien team quite comprehensively with a lot of res held and they only had 2 hives. Then it began. The usual ninja gorge bile bombing. Now typically if you dedicate time and effort to stopping it, you can stop it. but sub sector is one of the worst places to be when getting bile bomb spammed. Firstly, one of the entrances has elevation, a major tactical advantage. Secondly, the base has a vent which clearly overlooks the entire base. Even while trying to get marines to defend against it, gorges continued to bile bomb us into submission.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can work around most of these base location shortcomings if you know how to.
As you know, bile bomb rushes succeed because most marine commanders <b>fail to see it coming, and they don't know how to react with a beacon (if needed) and/or E-D (nanoshield)</b>. The starting obs in base should be placed in such a way as to cover the vents and entrances to base, with at least another obs to be built later to cover another portion of the base. For example in summit, putting an obs at the Sub-Access power node or just a little down the stairs from the power will cover most of the vent and the hallway leading to/from Computer Lab. Putting another obs at the top right of the res node will cover the rest of the vent and a portion of the hallway leading to/from Ventilation. Alternatively, it can be placed at the bottom of the stairs leading up to said hallway.
Putting the obs behind the summit Sub-Access comm station is not ideal, half of the scan radius is wasted off the map. Having only one obs is not enough. Two obs provide greater coverage and redundant safety. By smart placement of multiple obs, you leave little gap for aliens to walk into your base undetected - you can see them coming, and more importantly marines will see red dots near their base and go after them. Even random nubrines understand that red dots are bad.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The second was on veil, where I was playing as an alien. The game was going well, and after bile bomb was researched I decided to start doing some ninja runs on marine spawn. I had never noticed it before, but with the previous game fresh in my mind, I realized how utterly atrocious the approach to marine spawn is on veil. Massively long corridors on either side with absolutely nothing to hide behind all the way in. Even then, in order to do some real damage you actually need to get <b>inside </b>marine spawn, to get around the protective walls around the command station area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are hiding spots if you know where to look for them, and if you have the guts to use them. Also, you actually live <b>longer</b> by getting inside marine spawn and jumping/dodging behind buildings while spamming the gorge squeal sound. Your survival is greatly increased with at least 1 or 2 other gorges rushing with you.
Its being worked on.
@op: Those standards already exist, and have for some time. That particular room (subsector) has undergone changes back and forth due to that exact scenario. To answer your question though: Marines never start there, and thus its an Alien start which is fine to have vents. As Marines capturing it, you take a risk holding a forward base, even if its not a techpoint. (nano/double) This works only for fixed spawn maps like Veil. Random spawns like summit cant be this way for obvious reasons.
Basically in regards to map design and layout, everything you are seeing is for a reason, that's all i can say.
The state of the gorge itself is another issue and topic.
So you are saying that a vent overlooking the entire marine base, as opposed to two long ass corridors that are essentially bare except for some hiding spots "if you know where to look for them", are both equally as viable for a bile bombing gorge? I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
<!--quoteo(post=2060521:date=Jan 14 2013, 10:23 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 14 2013, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically in regards to map design and layout, everything you are seeing is for a reason, that's all i can say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why do map layouts keep changing? Are we including reasons that are wrong?
Clearly subsector is easier to get into and bile but are both viable? Definitely, I've seen it happen several times on veil. It is in my opinion, and I think it says this in the mapping guidelines, a bad idea to have a vent into any tech point. There are several maps that have them though and they work fine. The main problem with the one in sub access is that it's got 2 pipes in front of it. If it didn't have those it wouldn't be such an easy spot to bile from, but since it does it's kind of like a natural shield.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then why do map layouts keep changing? Are we including reasons that are wrong?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They've changed a lot since I started playing NS2 at least. Usually in the changelog near the bottom it says why, usually due to things like having a long hallway that leads directly to a hive that you can shoot from across the map. The warehouse techpoint in Tram for example, it used to not have those big stacks of boxes protecting it from a doorway attack. Also holes in the maps are generally fixed pretty quick if people find them. If you're asking if suggesting balance changes (which are your reasons) is wrong, then it's hard to say. It takes a long time to decide what is balanced and only small changes are usually made to that effect. Things like taking out a hallway or vent have to be considered and tested quite a bit to get any real idea of what is right or wrong.
The way I see it, if one is balanced, and the other is better, then one is overpowered. If one is balanced, and the other is worse, then one is underpowered.
It would be fine if biling was just one of many things that a marine spawn had to protect itself against, but biling is <b>the </b>thing to defend against. Ninja biling marine spawns has such a massive affect on the outcome of a game that any small discrepancies in how difficult or easy it is to pull of throws balance right out the window.
You didn't read what I wrote. Time for cliff notes.
<ul><li> never said the two locations were equally viable</li><li> first part of my post refers to marine comming</li><li> there ARE hiding spots in the hallways to Control (veil), even in Control itself...they're just ones which require brave suicidal gorges to make use of</li></ul>
<ul><li> never said the two locations were equally viable</li><li> first part of my post refers to marine comming</li><li> there ARE hiding spots in the hallways to Control (veil), even in Control itself...they're just ones which require brave suicidal gorges to make use of</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, well just checking. I'm perfectly aware that it can be done. Just the other day I was playing explore mode and got all the way into marine spawn on veil and bile bombed it. Anecdotal evidence is pretty meaningless here.
However, my original point was that their is a balance discrepancy, which you just agreed with by saying that the two are not equally viable.
Anything <i>can </i>be done. Hell, you <i>can </i>kill 8 Exos with a single skulk. But that doesn't have anything to do with equality and balance.
If you build a forward base, you must protect it, as it is equally contestable by either team through asymmetrical means.
If subsector was anything like Marine spawn, aliens would never be able to take it back with those long wide open hallways.
Veil was an NS1 map, so it's not really a good example for you to use.
It was built with/around NS1's balancing, not NS2's.
I do like the fact that they've moved the Marine start so you can no longer siege through the wall to Nanogrid.
2) Pub commanders need to get used to paying attention to their minimap and using nanoshield on the power and hotkeying their obs. These things take time but they will figure it out.
3) Don't be too quick to nerf things that can be dealt with
/end disucssion
2) Pub commanders need to get used to paying attention to their minimap and using nanoshield on the power and hotkeying their obs. These things take time but they will figure it out.
3) Don't be too quick to nerf things that can be dealt with
/end disucssion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wish there was more than 5 hotkeys.
As an alien com I hotkey any/all of the following:
Shifts(When upgraded) and hives
As marine com I hotkey the following:
Observatories, robotics factories.
<!--quoteo(post=2060554:date=Jan 15 2013, 07:49 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 15 2013, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are not viable because one is NOT a marine spawn. You keep saying it is, but it is not. (subsector)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there is some confusion here. It seems people are referring to Sub-Access from Summit when saying Sub-Sector.
Sub-Sector is an Alien starting tech point from Veil.
Were power node specific notifications ever in the game? I remember hearing it was but removed.
2) Pub commanders need to get used to paying attention to their minimap and using nanoshield on the power and hotkeying their obs. These things take time but they will figure it out.
3) Don't be too quick to nerf things that can be dealt with
/end disucssion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I've said before; <i>anything </i>can be dealt with. Anecdotal evidence says that even 8 Onos can be killed by a marine team of nothing but lights. Does that mean its worth considering? No.
If there are to scenarios in which all variables are essentially kept equal, but the map makes one easier to pull off than the other, then <b>at best</b> only one of them is balanced. Everyone seems to be missing that point. <b>Balance</b>. If two scenarios are the same, but not equal, then balance is lacking somewhere, plain and simple.
<!--quoteo(post=2060672:date=Jan 15 2013, 05:56 AM:name=aaSpider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aaSpider @ Jan 15 2013, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there is some confusion here. It seems people are referring to Sub-Access from Summit when saying Sub-Sector.
Sub-Sector is an Alien starting tech point from Veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think both should be renamed to Sub-Something-Or-Other.
Sub-Sector is an Alien starting tech point from Veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true.
He said sub sector and even mentioned veil... but he meant to say <i>sub access</i> and therefore what i said above regarding that specific scenario, with the halfway down doors in subsector on veil, doesnt apply.
But the other stuff i said still applies :P