How NS2 severely limited its own map design

Amb · January 2013

<div class="IPBDescription">ns1 vets need your opinions</div><span style="color:#FF0000"><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">OK I'm keeping this as short as possible to keep it "TL DR" tards friendly.

Anyway, I feel that the NS2 engine/mechanics are severely limiting its own map designs, mappers aren't given a lot of room for creativity and here's why:</span></span>

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">NS2 maps have to be "wheelchair" friendly</span></span>
What does that mean? Simple: cysts, macs, arcs and drifters can only travel on X and Y axis, there's no Z. How does that affect map design? Well, map design such as <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//3.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> won't happen in NS2 unless UWE change this core mechanic (I seriously doubt they'd have the time/resource to do this).

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">Engine limitation</span></span>
the current NS2 engine doesn't allow the viewing range to exceed what was it? 45 meters? This means mappers simply can't create anything with a major elevation or descension.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">The introduction of tech points</span></span>
The "aliens hive must also be built on a tech point" rule again severely limits map design. What do all the hives in NS2 have in common? That's right, they are all barely 2 feet off the ground. Remember how awesome <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> use to be? Yeah well, you aren't gonna see stuff like that anymore in NS2, sorry.

Res · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">NS2 maps have to be "wheelchair" friendly</span></span>
What does that mean? Simple: cysts, macs, arcs and drifters can only travel on X and Y axis, there's no Z. How does that affect map design? Well, map design such as <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//3.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> won't happen in NS2 unless UWE change this core mechanic (I seriously doubt they'd have the time/resource to do this).</div>

Technically, you could still have those elevators/ladder/high areas to another room if there was an alternate route in which the macs/drifters/etc could go.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">Engine limitation</span></span>
the current NS2 engine doesn't allow the viewing range to exceed what was it? 45 meters? This means mappers simply can't create anything with a major elevation or descension.</div>

hmm that's interesting. There are some pretty open areas in specific spots in the current maps. I think you could make maps <i>feel </i>fairly open even with the current limitation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">The introduction of tech points</span></span>
The "aliens hive must also be built on a tech point" rule again severely limits map design. What do all the hives in NS2 have in common? That's right, they are all barely 2 feet off the ground. Remember how awesome <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> use to be? Yeah well, you aren't gonna see stuff like that anymore in NS2, sorry.</div>

Technically, you could put a tech point on a platform high up and achieve the same result (have a small ramp going up it for MACs, or just ignore macs using it entirely.).

Amb · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 13 2013, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Technically, you could still have those elevators/ladder/high areas to another room if there was an alternate route in which the macs/drifters/etc could go.</div>

which is precisely my point, littering a room with <a href="http://fireplant.com.au/wp-content/gallery/fireplant-generic-gallery/fireplant-007.jpg" target="_blank">"fire trucks"</a> to accommodate a design flaw

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 13 2013, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>hmm that's interesting. There are some pretty open areas in specific spots in the current maps. I think you could make maps <i>feel </i>fairly open even with the current limitation.</div>

nah you can't. Try comm in NS1 and you'd see that the Birdseye view is way high up in the sky compared to NS2. anything above the limit of 45m (not sure about the distance) disappears from the comm's LOS.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 13 2013, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Technically, you could put a tech point on a platform high up and achieve the same result (have a small ramp going up it for MACs, or just ignore macs using it entirely.).</div>

see my "fire truck" analogy.

Res · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 02:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>which is precisely my point, littering a room with <a href="http://fireplant.com.au/wp-content/gallery/fireplant-generic-gallery/fireplant-007.jpg" target="_blank">"fire trucks"</a> to accommodate a design flaw

nah you can't. Try comm in NS1 and you'd see that the Birdseye view is way high up in the sky compared to NS2. anything above the limit of 45m (not sure about the distance) disappears from the comm's LOS.

see my "fire truck" analogy.</div>

1 extra access isn't exactly littering a room, most rooms have more than 1 access point anyway..... Maybe you could say littering a map if most of the rooms on the map employed these vertical access points..... but then that map probably wouldn't be that good in the first place.

Either way, everything I described is what a mapper can do to workaround to achieve desired results they may be looking for. Therefore, it doesn't limit map design by as much as you may think when mappers can work around it.

piratedave · January 2013

+1 for the op

but you forgot to mention that UWE themselves have tried to limit mappers by creating rules on how those maps should be created (if they are ever to be accepted as official that is) This means that there will be no Maze of corridors anymore on official maps and no more interesting layouts, instead we have this : tech room - small coridor - rt room - small coridor - tech room ... rince repeat. This is why all the maps seem to have a wagon wheel design

chibimike · January 2013

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! I miss all those maps you showed so much :( especially this one <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h4.jpg" target="_blank">http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h4.jpg</a>

I hope all those maps can make it into this game...

Even if they're not official, I'd still love them :)

Bacillus · January 2013

I guess pnodes limit the marine base area designs at least to some extend. Wallhop also relies pretty heavily on areas where you can hug walls to get the skulk going.

gnoarch · January 2013

God, these NS1 maps really were divine. Really brings back mamories.

Is there the possiblity to make a NS1 2.0, meaning to port the good old NS1 to to new engine without the power/cyst/khamm mechanics?

Yuuki · January 2013

Power nodes also limits what you can do with the elevation and complex topologies, you would need to add so many power nodes or have difficult to power areas.

Fule · January 2013

Aren't they going to make the NS1 maps for NS2? Damn I miss them so much.

Namm · January 2013

If the commander could zoom and rotate a bit, placing Cysts (and other structures) on walls shouldn't be a problem and it would be possible to have vertical Cyst chains. It's a 3D engine afterall, why not make the RTS part fully 3D (except for the roofs, which have to be transparent). All the aspects are already in the game, they'll just have to figure out how to make zoom/rotate reasonably glitch free.

Amb · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Jan 13 2013, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060004"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>... shouldn't be a problem and it would be possible to have vertical Cyst chains.</div>

the engine doesn't allow that because cysts share the same flat way-points as the macs/arcs/drifters, for them to go up or down, there has to be a ramp. In other words, you can't cyst off a balcony, even if it's just 1 meter off.

xen32 · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 13 2013, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>God, these NS1 maps really were divine. Really brings back mamories.

Is there the possiblity to make a NS1 2.0, meaning to port the good old NS1 to to new engine without the power/cyst/khamm mechanics?</div>

It's already done. NS2c.

d0ped0g · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:#FF0000"><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">OK I'm keeping this as short as possible to keep it "TL DR" tards friendly.

Anyway, I feel that the NS2 engine/mechanics are severely limiting its own map designs, mappers aren't given a lot of room for creativity and here's why:</span></span>

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">NS2 maps have to be "wheelchair" friendly</span></span>
What does that mean? Simple: cysts, macs, arcs and drifters can only travel on X and Y axis, there's no Z. How does that affect map design? Well, map design such as <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//3.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//6.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> won't happen in NS2 unless UWE change this core mechanic (I seriously doubt they'd have the time/resource to do this).</div>

This is probably my biggest concern with mapping. Severely limits what can be done. I think there should just be places where you can 'set' the cyst mechanic to be broken (i.e. allow jumps in height like in the elevator in ns_metal). I have less of a problem with arcs/macs/drifters being forced to take seperate routes (or not at all), as the only other option (besides as somebody mentioned, adding new routes/ramps) seems to be removing them from gameplay. Not fussed with having a drifter be forced to go all the way around cooling processing (is that the hive in metal with the elevator?) just to get to the bit above the elevator, but cysting there would be a pain. Likewise, macs/arcs could just be forced to do the same thing (or perhaps have the ability to go up and down on the elevator), or have them built in a robofactory in the lower bit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">Engine limitation</span></span>
the current NS2 engine doesn't allow the viewing range to exceed what was it? 45 meters? This means mappers simply can't create anything with a major elevation or descension.</div>

Yeah this is a big problem with open areas in maps I find. For example, with lerks exploiting the view-distance in crevice. Certainly doesn't promote having big open spaces - although it's not particularly good from a gameplay perspective anyway, I'd like to see it in maps more often if only to give a sense of variety from the constant confined/claustrophobic corridors.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#4169E1">The introduction of tech points</span></span>
The "aliens hive must also be built on a tech point" rule again severely limits map design. What do all the hives in NS2 have in common? That's right, they are all barely 2 feet off the ground. Remember how awesome <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h1.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h2.jpg" target="_blank">this</a>, <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h4.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> and <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/reyn116//h5.jpg" target="_blank">this</a> use to be? Yeah well, you aren't gonna see stuff like that anymore in NS2, sorry.</div>

I never thought of this from a design perspective, but you have a point. Sure, as somebody mentioned, raised platforms could kindof solve this, but it still doesn't solve the issue aesthetically. I feel it's a symptom of having the command station tied to techpoints (so must be on the ground). Would be nice to give the hive the ability to be built further up from where the techpoint is. I just dislike the techpoint system from a gameplay perspective. Locking down command stations to techpoints means no relocation (aside from to techpoints). I suppose they could just make it so that you can build command stations outside of techpoints, although it might mean people will build a second command station in base while end-game turtling, forcing the aliens to go for the powernode instead of command station (which often is the better option).

Skipjack · January 2013

I think that has also been critized in many game reviews I have seen. That maps look and feel the same.
And indeed they do. In ns1 I actually cared about the next map to be played after a round ended, because every map had its own feeling and playstyle.
You had to behave different and use different tactics (thats a big one! in some maps you had the opportunity to try really different and uncommon tactics, because of the layout of the map). You don't have that anymore in ns2. Every map is played in the same style, same variation of tactics.
When I see a map vote now I'm like "....does it even matter?"

gnoarch · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skipjack @ Jan 13 2013, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think that has also been critized in many game reviews I have seen. That maps look and feel the same.
And indeed they do. In ns1 I actually cared about the next map to be played after a round ended, because every map had its own feeling and playstyle.
You had to behave different and use different tactics (thats a big one! in some maps you had the opportunity to try really different and uncommon tactics, because of the layout of the map). You don't have that anymore in ns2. Every map is played in the same style, same variation of tactics.
When I see a map vote now I'm like "....does it even matter?"</div>

true that.

Desther · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skipjack @ Jan 13 2013, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think that has also been critized in many game reviews I have seen. That maps look and feel the same.
And indeed they do. In ns1 I actually cared about the next map to be played after a round ended, because every map had its own feeling and playstyle.
You had to behave different and use different tactics (thats a big one! in some maps you had the opportunity to try really different and uncommon tactics, because of the layout of the map). You don't have that anymore in ns2. Every map is played in the same style, same variation of tactics.
When I see a map vote now I'm like "....does it even matter?"</div>

Many ns maps were community made, right? The ones that were popular were the top-picks from the massive selection of maps being made by modders and extensively tested by players on community servers. If you're making a game like NS2 you can't trust that every wild map design you come up with will instantly have that magic spark that makes it awesome, you need a consistent design which you hope will achieve the fairness and balance that they all need.

|strofix| · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>original post</div>

While a lot of the "limitations" you mention are newly introduced since NS1, they aren't reeaally <i>new</i>.

As NS1 progressed into later versions, elevation as it is depicted in those screenshots you posted was slowly being phased out. I remember when the maintenance hive in eclipse was only accessible via a very long and awkward ladder. The devs quickly realised that this vertical adjustment was bad for gameplay, and just looked plain silly when aliens were forced to use ladders to get to places. Also, while it was slowly phased out in some places, where it didn't make sense, it was still kept in other places, like the image of Hera that you posted. Luckily, this is also true for NS2, where elevation similar to that is kept in places where it is feasible and makes sense. Look at central drilling on mineshaft for an example.

Then onto view distance. Currently, the view distance limit is based on not being able to see other players past a certain distance. In NS1, or more accurately goldsrc, the limitation was still very much there. I forget what it was, some command like r_speeds or something, but there was a value that basically HAD to be kept below 800, and should typically be much lower than that. In big open areas, it was almost impossible to accomplish this. So the limitation was still very much there, and even in NS1 mappers stuck to the restrictions. You saw very few open areas, save for maybe siege maps, and we all know how badly those ran.

As for the hive 2 feet off the floor thing, I get what you're saying, but its just a design limitation. There are always design limitations, its the job of the mapper to make something amazing while sticking to them, which I feel the mappers have accomplished in NS2. Cargo and Generator are two good examples. Both are large, grand rooms, yet both stick to the design limitation of having the hive at the floor, and both look good.

<u><b>However</b></u>

I will agree that the maps are being limited in their design option, but not due to concrete engine and game mechanic limitations, but rather conceptual limitations.

In NS1, I would estimate that an average map comprised about 20% tech rooms, and 80% miscellaneous passageways. This was awesome. Because all the connection rooms and corridors had questionable strategic import, and because they were such a large percentage of the map, a lot of strategies emerged. However, in NS2 I would estimate that on the average map, tech rooms comprise close to 50% of the entire map. This means that a very large proportion of the map has a concrete and known strategic importance. Everybody has seen it. You build on res nodes and go straight towards hive rooms. Thats what happens in every game. There are no sneaky corridors or auxillary rooms worth taking in the vast majority of cases. In fact, if I'm not mistake, the official mapping guidelines expressly advice against the creations of miscellaneous rooms and passageways which appear to "not lead anywhere".

In my opinion, those "pointless" rooms and passageways were what gave NS1 such great strategic depth, and they also really gave you the feeling of being in a real space station or facility.

<span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%">TL;DR</span>
<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">Don't lose hope. I am confident that the things you loved so much from NS1 can still be done in NS2, even in the games current state. However it goes against the gameplay that they are trying to promote, which is gameplay which is more widely appealing to the greater majority of players. All we need are dedicated mappers to bring back NS1 classics.</span>

Xao · January 2013

My body was not ready for that nostalgia.

I don't even know why I have this game installed knowing all of the above can not be implemented into the game... It didn't even occur to me, it feels like I've been lying to myself "it's not NS1 mang, its BETTER because its DIFFERENT".

I never asked for this, ###### you Amb.

cake. · January 2013

<span style="color:#FF8C00">Be nice.
-Align</span>

Kouji_San · January 2013

The only things that have changed from NS1 mapping and are limiting the map designs are the floor based techpoints (and marines being forced to use them as well), the cyst chains, the none hive teleport/walking distances and the Onos+EXO movement (still quite similar to NS1 though, currently lacking ladders for them and all other floor based aliens), but you can work around those to some extent. Even the 45-50 meter max render range is plenty. Its not like NS1 didn't have its limitations, however they were mostly engine limited like the 800max visible world brushes and 275max runtime entities, basically what |strofix| said :)

The thing is, this being a RTS+FPS hybrid it is simply mandatory to have those limitations for gameplay purposes...

[edit] The one thing I'd like to see some experimentation with is giving mappers control over the cyst chain max elevation in some areas --> which wuld also translate to MACs/Drifter movement perhaps, but still restrict the Arc and Whip movement. And making it a mapping or perhaps pathing_setting would not break the current map design either...

Basically marines prefer to fight in horizontal areas where aliens like to use vertical areas, opening up the cyst chains to that might bring us back to the semi-level over level stuff in Hera and the most extreme example the Viaduct Hive you posted :)

Wheeee · January 2013

i think wall cysts should be a major priority. make it so!

Lofung · January 2013

remove cysts and the stupid iwinbutton before we start talking. and yes. i agree.

Namm · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>the engine doesn't allow that because cysts share the same flat way-points as the macs/arcs/drifters, for them to go up or down, there has to be a ramp. In other words, you can't cyst off a balcony, even if it's just 1 meter off.</div>
Hmm. How did mini-Cysts work?

Lofung · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Jan 13 2013, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Many ns maps were community made, right?</div>
maps are community made, but i guess the dev choose the map to be released?

Kouji_San · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Jan 13 2013, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Hmm. How did mini-Cysts work?</div>
I think cysts have an unlimited vertical cylindrical trigger in their navmesh and the gorge's minicyst used that as a trigger to place or not to place as long as it was inside that vertical cyst cylinder (and within range of the Gorge). The cysts themselves use the navmesh and draw a path from cyst to cyst and keeping it within that same vertical cyst cylinder

DC_Darkling · January 2013

wouldn't it be a idea for hives to make them truly attach to the ceiling?
What I mean, right now the floor kind of says where it is supposed to be in regards to distance from the floor. Why not make it that it only needs a certain distance from the ceiling, and a minimum from the floor? This could allow a lot of higher hives.

Could make the hive 'arms' longer to reach if need be.

Amb · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DC_Darkling @ Jan 14 2013, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>wouldn't it be a idea for hives to make them truly attach to the ceiling?
What I mean, right now the floor kind of says where it is supposed to be in regards to distance from the floor. Why not make it that it only needs a certain distance from the ceiling, and a minimum from the floor? This could allow a lot of higher hives.

<u>Could make the hive 'arms' longer to reach if need be.</u></div>

that'd make the hitbox so much bigger. Wouldn't work.

Brad_R · January 2013

Good post.

IeptBarakat · January 2013

+1 to the op's valid concerns. Maps suffer from a samey effect in ns2 and a lot of great mapping concepts from ns1 will never make it to ns2 with the current limitations.

DC_Darkling · January 2013

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>that'd make the hitbox so much bigger. Wouldn't work.</div>

Soo.. exclude them from? (not sure if that can be done code technicly, but im just trying to think with the OP since he was right)

How NS2 severely limited its own map design

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