Can a good commander overcome a bad team?
Mattmyster
Join Date: 2012-12-20 Member: 175669Members
Join Date: 2012-12-20 Member: 175669Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A team that can't make kills or hold RTs</div>Recently I've been playing games as marines where the team I was on was awful. They couldn't kill skulks, they couldn't hold points and for the most part couldn't work as a team. This was a public game and all this is to be expected.
The thing that stood out the most was the commander knew what he was doing, it's just the team couldn't execute those commands. Obviously you could supplement a poor combat team with meds and maybe nano shield. But it's not very pragmatic at the start of the game.
I've suggested that at double res, or important tech point where it is a necessity to hold that point, to put sentries down. This would help the survivability of players defending in the area.
So I put the question to you - Can a good commander persevere a bad team and win the match? What tactics could be used?
The thing that stood out the most was the commander knew what he was doing, it's just the team couldn't execute those commands. Obviously you could supplement a poor combat team with meds and maybe nano shield. But it's not very pragmatic at the start of the game.
I've suggested that at double res, or important tech point where it is a necessity to hold that point, to put sentries down. This would help the survivability of players defending in the area.
So I put the question to you - Can a good commander persevere a bad team and win the match? What tactics could be used?
Comments
Good organisation can help a bad team beat a less bad team, but it won't help a mediocre team beat a good team.
The biggest influence a commander can have is directing his troops and efficiently medding/supporting, but if your marines just can't get the kills you won't win.
Tell your marines to use mines. They're cheapish, easy to use and have a huge impact on the (early) game.
If I know my marines can't handle most 1v1, 2v2 and so on fights, I'll try to get a PG up near a hive with a big portion of the team, and once up, beacon and rush everyone into the hive. Losing your second hive at the 8-10 minute mark is demoralising for most aliens.
Alien commanding doesn't require the team to be effectively active. and just serve as 'cannon' fodder in most cases, while the commander takes over resource points. Telling people to go put pressure on certain locations rather than defend them. Which loosely puts the steering wheel in the player's hands rather than the commander's hands.
In most cases this is pretty average play for the aliens. And in most cases the cause of victory.
This however doesn't seem so for marines, if marines don't follow up on the commander's orders and go about their own business trying to remain control of that 'steering' wheel while really they should move as groups rather than singulars.
It's kinda the job of the marine commander to guide this process yes, but if the team itself is reluctant to even try so, then the attempt is in vain. Even if just 3 marines 'defect' like this, it can set the tone of the game from very early on.
Most probably the most common cause of marine losses is '######ing' around, or people not listening.
Ontop of this, vocal communication is pretty crucial as far as marine commanding goes.
medpacks, nanoshield, sentries ... these all cost res. By using these you have to either gain economy in the long run or hurt the alien economy in order for it to be worth it. Marines cost 0 res, so its pointless medpacking/nanoshielding them if they arent gonna be accomplishing anything.
sentries are'nt worth it tbh. If you need sentries because your team is so bad .... then your gonna have real problems trying to damage the alien economy (ie. attacking) and most likely your only hope of victory is either EXO's with macs (a 1 off strategy, lose your exos and you lose) or you could pray that the alien team really sucks.
What does help the team secure new territory is spamming them with medpacks and ammo at every encounter. It's costs like hell, but you just can't afford to be stuck at 2-3 res nodes for too long.
The sad thing is that, even if that isn't enough, and you're still stuck at 2-3 res nodes after 10 minutes, you'll be taking a lot of flack of marines wondering why they haven't got A1/W2, shotties and mines by then. All of the sudden you'll be the one supposedly holding the team back with all that support you're giving to marines who can't aim for ######. I've actually had people shouting at me to stop dropping them medkits and ammo. xD
There's not much point strategizing unless you have a coordinated team. And even then, you still have to hope that your players are better than theirs.
Good comm, but bad marines= game over unless bad aliens.
in ns2, no. u will be insta outmarcoed because of the stupid cysts. it just drags you too much time from getting anything done.
in ns2, no. u will be insta outmarcoed because of the stupid cysts. it just drags you too much time from getting anything done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but what if you got outpoloed too?
This.
For bad marine teams to win, many things have to go very right for them or its just going to end in tears. If I find myself comming a bad team, I will often just buy upgrades and sentries but no weapons. Then it becomes target practice... they get to learn how to shoot skulks and cover each other, and I talk them through any little thing that comes up.
If there's a glimmer of hope, I just beg them to hold one RT and a second chair using a PG and build up both bases well enough to keep them going. Then I just hold out for enough res for exos and tell them to wait for duals before buying any. Then, if anything is still standing, get arcs.
not a chance.
I tend to comm a bunch on rookie servers.
If your marines are roughly on par as the aliens, you can save the next round by playing this one as marine school . My experience is, if your marines are bad on a rookie server its not that they are significantly under average at shooting stuff. It's that they are expecting the game to play differently. You ignore the fact that you are gonna lose and focus on making are they understand why they are losing. You tell them that they are fantastic. You make sure that every one of the gets praised if they do what they are told or do things they are supposed to do without being asked.
Generally the things people are getting killed over fall into 3 categories:
<ul><li>Not checking ceilings ,vents, and corners</li><li>Poor positioning/movement</li><li>Blindly following orders.</li></ul>
The First one you spend precious res on ping. You do it for any group that if trying to do what you ask. You do it any time a lerk is spiking a building. If marines look confused and are running about frantically. Who knows what is going on. Ping that . After you ping you tell them "jimmy on your left" bam, dead skulk.
The same thing goes for positioning, you tell them where to be and why. You give them as much warning as you can about having stuff incoming. you buy observatories at your bases. You tell them about the map over and over again. You get them to stay back from doorways and down long straight hallways. You tell them to spam jump when skulks get in close and that will get them meds.
Finally, a bunch of them see that order thing pop up to build the power node and they do it instead of shooting skulks. Never, never, drop a building into rookie marines who are being attacked. When you do drop that building, You pick someone and you tell them to cover. Everyone else gets told that if they hear a skulks or shooting or see billy die the stop building and shoot stuff.
At the end you all die looking like supermodels and getting better.
This means the next round they all go marines again despite losing and this time they get it from the beginning you get JPs at 8 minutes and that's the game.
If I'm up to it, and my team is failing hard, I get them (by lots of calling out single players etc harassment) all to the second tech point, and then I just make them sit in those 2 tech points, turtling like there's no tomorrow. If they're getting too restless, I put them to try and cap the one RT between the bases. Keeps them busy, keeps them close.
Then you just sit till 3/3 and dual exos. You do not buy ANYTHING from the armory, so that the entire team is forced to buy dual exos.
Then you ball up all the exos and a bunch of macs, force a couple to stay home, and march to victory.
Works, because aliens won't be organized enough to stop multiple dual exos. If they would be, we'd never get past weapon level 2 before losing. Aka getting absolutely crushed.
It's always an hour long game, but it has worked several times so the payoff is rather satisfying. Not for the faint of heart.
If I'm up to it, and my team is failing hard, I get them (by lots of calling out single players etc harassment) all to the second tech point, and then I just make them sit in those 2 tech points, turtling like there's no tomorrow. If they're getting too restless, I put them to try and cap the one RT between the bases. Keeps them busy, keeps them close.
Then you just sit till 3/3 and dual exos. You do not buy ANYTHING from the armory, so that the entire team is forced to buy dual exos.
Then you ball up all the exos and a bunch of macs, force a couple to stay home, and march to victory.
Works, because aliens won't be organized enough to stop multiple dual exos. If they would be, we'd never get past weapon level 2 before losing. Aka getting absolutely crushed.
It's always an hour long game, but it has worked several times so the payoff is rather satisfying. Not for the faint of heart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow. if that wins you games, then the aliens are twice as bad as your team.
- A good team earns an advantage.
- A good commander capitalizes on that advantage.
To elaborate: A good team can kill everything, but kills are meaningless unless they give you map control. What does map control mean? RTs. So a good team gets the kills and earns the CHANCE to get map control - IF the commander capitalizes on those kills.
Where does the commander come in? Coms have very little influence in terms of fighting. They can do things like medpacks/ammo/nano or MACs/ARCs/Turrets (ARCs are actually very important in NS2), enzyme, misting, bone® wall, etc. etc. But they can't kill players very effectively. They can HELP their team kill players, but it's the team that has to get the kills, which let's repeat - are meaningless unless they get you map control. And what is map control? RTs.
So, can a bad commander make up for a bad team? Generally it's possible, but ONLY if the other commander is absolutely horrible.
It's much harder to make up for marines being bad though. Aliens being bad you can make up by spamming shifts and crags and whips. Marines, however, HAVE to be good. I've seen some 1:2 team KDR alien wins, but I've never seen a 1:2 team KDR marine win - unless basically the alien com gets in the chair and does nothing.
I mean, you can always hope that the other commander is AFK in this game, but in reality how often does this happen? Not very.
The problem is a good commander is generally better than the derp on the field and is a wasted resource in the comm chair when you are stuck in spawn.
If they somehow manage to hold a second tech point and 3-4 rp's then you can at least build ARC's and try to muster the sheep to follow the big slow tank and try to shoot anything near big slow tank.
So you're saying aliens are twice as bad as the marines, even though the marines can't hold 3 rt's? Do I have to be able to count to potato to understand your logic?
Cuz I can't.
There's not much point strategizing unless you have a coordinated team. And even then, you still have to hope that your players are better than theirs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's wrong to say games are decided by the first few engagements.
Pub games are decided by player skill, and player skill is indicated by how the first few engagements go. However there's an important distinction between this, and between claiming the game is "decided" by the first few engagements. On a great many occasions I've joined a game mid-match and helped win several fights which completely change the resource claims of the map in my team's favor -- which can result in the entire game being turned around.. Obviously there are limits: the longer a match goes with one team sitting on an advantage, the harder it is to unseat that advantage. But the main point is that games are determined by player skill, not by the first few engagements.
To the OP: As others have already explained in various ways, the commander is an important member of a team but he can't win the game by himself. I'd say "especially as alien" except that there have been games where I've both commanded and been the highest scoring member on the alien team (by 2x) and dragged that team to victory, and I definitely can't do that as marine commander.
I definitely make much more of an impact as marine than marine commander. While that's partially due to my skill at both (great marine; average commander) I think that even at the highest skill levels the marine matters more. If you took an average team and for 100 games gave them the best marine in the game, and then substituted him with the best marine commander in the game, I imagine the first team would have won more games by the end of it. Again, the commander is important, but he can't win the game by himself and arguably he might not even be the most important member on the team (apart from the fact that someone of at least average skill is required to command while you could certainly win games with an AFK marine.)
Engagements in NS2 are interesting in that the outcome isn't as important as WHERE the engagement occurs. It doesn't matter all that much if your marines get wiped out if they keep taking down alien structures yes? It doesn't matter if your skulks are dying left and right if they can take out an RT in exchange yes? Granted getting the kill is always a boon for your team, it's not as important as doing economic damage to the enemy.
I'm of the opinion that TECH wins most games in NS2 and it doesn't take much skill to hump an RT to prolong the acquisition of TECH.
Cuz I can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your marines are turtleing in two bases that means the aliens should have the rest of the map. With that amount of res control they should be able to break one marine base even if it's being turtled, if they can't that's a pretty poor alien team. Given most maps are 5 tech points, that's 3 tech vs 2 tech (not to mention res control), the only time I see marines win that is when aliens are complete derps as a team and let the marines tech all the way up to exos and arc trains.
And there is only so many things you can have your eye on as commander and orders you can give. If I have to tell a guy (who was using a microphone himself) three times "there is a Gorge biling the power node right next to you, how about getting your ass over there instead of waiting for an enemy to come through the hallway you are looking at" and he still doesn't do anything about it until the power is down, then I just don't want to go on anymore. He could easily have stopped the Gorge, but this way the entire team had to get back and stop their current assault.
Or other guys who walk right through a phase gate away from a fight, even though they could clearly see and hear the enemy who were in that room and going for the power at that moment.
At one point we even managed to get one of the three alien hives down and could have turned the match, but instead of waiting somewhere or holding a position, the team preferred to rather walk all the way back to base for whatever reason. Aliens got that place back of course.
This dragged on through the entire match. Even in the beginning was it more of a "walk from Sub to Computer Lab, notice that aliens are in Data Core and that the team is doing fine holding them back. Well, rather walk back to base and ignoring any pleas of the Commander to continue capturing stuff in Flight Control."
The match wasn't over by minute 45 yet. We managed to tear down several Onos, lost many Exos and some guys had really a good clue of what they were supposed to do. But some were just so unaware of everything that you couldn't rely on them to do anything. Which drags the entire team down because they give other players the illusion that a role is actually taken care of (like guarding a base against incoming Gorge rushes) while it actually isn't.
No idea how the match ended because the game decided to crash, probably from a sound bug, at that point. A kick in the teeth was just what I needed after almost an hour of facepalming.
Yes, I know. As I said, it only works if the aliens aren't organized. Good enough to beat the marines outside the base, not good enough to take out a base. They'll just run in one Onos at a time, achieving little.
Cuz I can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm saying that if you can't hold 3 rt's and you go turrets, the aliens are incredibly bad if they let you do anything except sit around in base.
I did mention turtling. As in, sitting in base. No need to build turrets when the team just sits in base.
Yep. Exo's are solo'able by celerity and carapace skulk or a good fade/lerk/onos; which the aliens should have (skill and res wise) if marines can barely hold two tech points.
If your team can't kill/hold, you can't expand, putting you in a terrible position. In those games, I try not to comm.
In those games, it's better to be a skilled foot soldier and have a good listener, with a mic, in the chair. As a foot soldier you can help expand, cut off enemy expansion, and improve you teammates odds of surviving engagements.