The power node is balanced (in my opinion) by the following dynamic.
A marine base with no marines in it is extremely easy to take offline, but a marine base with marines in it is nearly impossible to take offline, regardless of the force with which you attack.
On the other hand, even an empty hive can be a timely process to clear, however even if alien players are inside the hive room, it doesn't make it all that much harder to clear.
If you struggle to get a 1:1 ratio on aliens, that explains why you experience a lower win ratio on them.
The fact that you're unaware of the relatively high skill ceiling of skulks backs this up (as a marine I just have to keep my mouse on the target and jump in certain ways to evade bites; as skulk you have access to much more elaborate evasion patterns and bunny hopping.) I get about 2:1 ratio average on marine too, but often 3:1 or better as alien. Notably these are KDs achieved <i>without focusing on KD,</i> because the most effective player in NS2 cares more about maximizing damage against key enemy structures than minimizing personal death count.
<!--quoteo(post=2054596:date=Jan 2 2013, 09:59 AM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 2 2013, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you struggle to get a 1:1 ratio on aliens, that explains why you experience a lower win ratio on them.
The fact that you're unaware of the relatively high skill ceiling of skulks backs this up (as a marine I just have to keep my mouse on the target and jump in certain ways to evade bites; as skulk you have access to much more elaborate evasion patterns and bunny hopping.) I get about 2:1 ratio average on marine too, but often 3:1 or better as alien. Notably these are KDs achieved <i>without focusing on KD,</i> because the most effective player in NS2 cares more about maximizing damage against key enemy structures than minimizing personal death count.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you truly do play alien well, then you will know how easy a "100% accuracy rate" is to get as skulk. That is the skill ceiling with regards to offense. You should also know that an accuracy rate of 100% with marines is essentially impossible to get, so the skill ceiling for marines, or indeed any shooter based mechanic, is essentially infinitely high as nobody will ever achieve it.
<!--quoteo(post=2054585:date=Jan 2 2013, 02:20 AM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Jan 2 2013, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They don't seem to respawn faster, they do respawn faster. 7 seconds per marine per IP. Aliens are on a spawn wave. Waves constantly tick down 12 seconds. You have to be in the wave for at LEAST 2 seconds, and an egg needs to be available, or you're waiting 12+ seconds for a spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I only said "seem to" because I wasn't 100% sure. Thanks for clearing it up.
Marines have a huge aim and co-ordination requirement and that only matters for aliens at the highest level of competitive play. In most levels of comp play you can still go 1v1 as a skulk against a marine in a good position. In those same levels fades and lerks are extremely strong and can harass without fear of getting hit by half a magazine and dying.
Suggestions:
Currently a lot of the alien/marine advantage comes from performance issues, network interp, and animation stutter. This needs to get out of the way first as it effects balance in a way that can't really be tracked and once it's fixed there is no doubt that aliens will have a much harder time playing.
The best way imo to handle meta balance is by giving the marines more tools to learn to play better or to co-ordinate better. Some ways to do this:
- dota-style build order for commanders, as well as a checklist of things to do. Simple, straightforward. - good ingame commander tutorial that players are either required or encouraged to go through. - commanders NEED to start inside the chair when the game starts. This whole downtime can destroy marine advantage as it doesn't really matter that much for aliens, aliens hardly ever need a commander unlike marines do. In fact the best tip for alien comm would be to pop out of the hive to harass or build stuff as a gorge, as you are wasting gathering res and what you can do when outside the hive if you don't this. - better over-all marine commander functionality. A lot of features that are in modern RTS games are missing, such as squads, group orders and hotkeys, queuing, hotkey setup, stat and status counter for your marines, and any features that reward APM. It's been forever since NS1 and the game has not evolved comparatively to actual RTS games, and is missing some of the core feature even found in old RTS games that should be in commander view.
Aliens need some skill-based movement mechanic. Where marines have aim, aliens only have their basic movement which is not difficult to learn. walljumping is easy and leap is hardly ever there. Shadowstep is brainless and a lot more useful than blink alone. Lerk flight is okay, but spores and biting are impossible to do against marines at the highest level. Having spores shoot out instead of dropped or the lerk being tankier but not able to spike as much, both are ideas. Without skill-based movement high level balance is thrown out the window, and you have marines that are godmode so aliens have to resort to lame tactics to win that are not fun to play against, such as base rushes or structure spam.
<!--quoteo(post=2054652:date=Jan 2 2013, 04:52 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Jan 2 2013, 04:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerk flight is okay, but spores and biting are impossible to do against marines at the highest level. Having spores shoot out instead of dropped or the lerk being tankier but not able to spike as much, both are ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually in NS1, spores used to be shot out like umbra. I was disappointed that the changed spores, but I can see why they did. Before, a lerk could safely hide in a vent and spam spores into a base. Now, it forces the lerk to take a risk which allows the marines to have counter play.
<!--quoteo(post=2054823:date=Jan 2 2013, 02:30 PM:name=pakrat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pakrat @ Jan 2 2013, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually in NS1, spores used to be shot out like umbra. I was disappointed that the changed spores, but I can see why they did. Before, a lerk could safely hide in a vent and spam spores into a base. Now, it forces the lerk to take a risk which allows the marines to have counter play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A 25 flamethrower denies a lerk anywhere in a map. Remove flamethrower and then things are even.
Lerks having to fly into marines and die to less half a magazine of a rifle even with carapace is the counter to spores. And this does not even count in a marine being able to 180 you with a shotgun and then it's gg 30 res wasted. Why bother risking when you can save the resources and not get spores? Spikes alone is all a lerk needs to be useful through the entire game.
The players have more influence than the marine vs alien. I can normally tell who will win based on who is on what team. I do well on both sides and get many kills for each death. We need better players, even when we are loosing I still manage to get 4:1 ratios, until we get overun. Though it doesn't help if everyone else on the team can't shoot. In some cases me and a buddy will take over one side of the map, while everyone else is having issues pushing past one node.
<!--quoteo(post=2054844:date=Jan 2 2013, 02:15 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Jan 2 2013, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flamethrower is not the hard counter to spores.
Lerks having to fly into marines and die to less half a magazine of a rifle even with carapace is the counter to spores. And this does not even count in a marine being able to 180 you with a shotgun and then it's gg 30 res wasted. Why bother risking when you can save the resources and not get spores? Spikes alone is all a lerk needs to be useful through the entire game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that's about how I feel too. I survive far longer and do far more damage to the marine team when I don't try to use Spores. I don't necessarily fear shotguns as a lerk, generally speaking, but certainly it becomes a strong counter if I try to use Spores.
Spores are a support skill. You should never, ever attempt to use spores if you're attacking by yourself. But they're extremely powerful if you're confident that the marines are distracted. Though right now they're bugged to not be as opaque as they're supposed to be.
Anyway, marines are not weak, but they do have more difficulty in a pub setting when the alien team knows how to play. Before the Steam sale we saw the alien winrate gradually go up and up as players became more competent, and it's starting to happen again. I think the main cause is that pub players are not as comfortable with the aggressive and coordinated playstyle that is required of marines to win the game. When both teams are uncoordinated, aliens tend to win by default because they are better suited to that playstyle.
<!--quoteo(post=2054892:date=Jan 2 2013, 01:55 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 2 2013, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spores are a support skill. You should never, ever attempt to use spores if you're attacking by yourself. But they're extremely powerful if you're confident that the marines are distracted. Though right now they're bugged to not be as opaque as they're supposed to be.
Anyway, marines are not weak, but they do have more difficulty in a pub setting when the alien team knows how to play. Before the Steam sale we saw the alien winrate gradually go up and up as players became more competent, and it's starting to happen again. I think the main cause is that pub players are not as comfortable with the aggressive and coordinated playstyle that is required of marines to win the game. When both teams are uncoordinated, aliens tend to win by default because they are better suited to that playstyle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't bugged, its a graphics setting they introduced last patch.
problem is not the powernode, it's because powernodes outside of tech areas are waaayy too strong, and powernodes in tech sites are waaayyy too weak, meaning it's useless waste of time to attack powernode outside base, while getting the power in base IS the only way to go.
also there is nothing to upgrade, nothing to defend the powernode exept turrets that are useless and waste of res, most of them you don't even have to clear turrets in order to get to the powernode.
all i wish is somekind of building or upgrades to defend the powernode, like statis field on buildings that stops incoming bilebombs aslong as that building has "armor" left ?
Marines have a huge aim and co-ordination requirement and that only matters for aliens at the highest level of competitive play. In most levels of comp play you can still go 1v1 as a skulk against a marine in a good position. In those same levels fades and lerks are extremely strong and can harass without fear of getting hit by half a magazine and dying.
Suggestions:
Currently a lot of the alien/marine advantage comes from performance issues, network interp, and animation stutter. This needs to get out of the way first as it effects balance in a way that can't really be tracked and once it's fixed there is no doubt that aliens will have a much harder time playing.
The best way imo to handle meta balance is by giving the marines more tools to learn to play better or to co-ordinate better. Some ways to do this:
- dota-style build order for commanders, as well as a checklist of things to do. Simple, straightforward. - good ingame commander tutorial that players are either required or encouraged to go through. - commanders NEED to start inside the chair when the game starts. This whole downtime can destroy marine advantage as it doesn't really matter that much for aliens, aliens hardly ever need a commander unlike marines do. In fact the best tip for alien comm would be to pop out of the hive to harass or build stuff as a gorge, as you are wasting gathering res and what you can do when outside the hive if you don't this. - better over-all marine commander functionality. A lot of features that are in modern RTS games are missing, such as squads, group orders and hotkeys, queuing, hotkey setup, stat and status counter for your marines, and any features that reward APM. It's been forever since NS1 and the game has not evolved comparatively to actual RTS games, and is missing some of the core feature even found in old RTS games that should be in commander view.
Aliens need some skill-based movement mechanic. Where marines have aim, aliens only have their basic movement which is not difficult to learn. walljumping is easy and leap is hardly ever there. Shadowstep is brainless and a lot more useful than blink alone. Lerk flight is okay, but spores and biting are impossible to do against marines at the highest level. Having spores shoot out instead of dropped or the lerk being tankier but not able to spike as much, both are ideas. Without skill-based movement high level balance is thrown out the window, and you have marines that are godmode so aliens have to resort to lame tactics to win that are not fun to play against, such as base rushes or structure spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you actually perform well as a Skulk with that attitude towards their movement skill? Because personally I find there's at least a medium amount of skill involved in wall-jumping and bunny-hopping to retain a high speed and general unpredictability. If anything, I feel the skill ceiling is higher for skulks to maximize effectiveness, compared with marines who are inherently pretty limited by the jump mechanics of the game and just have a simple hitscan weapon* on top of those rather simple movement mechanics.
*Even CoD requires a bit of bursting to maximize DPS output, but NS2 is pure 100% accurate hitscan. I don't think NS2 needs to change, but this is a discussion on skill depth and 100% accurate hitscan weapons are not particularly deep.
I don't disagree with your overall post though. Your suggestions overall are good ones. Though NS2 does have limited control group functionality, it's pretty weak/busted by modern RTS standards. And while they could clean up the command experience considerably I'm not sure marines are hurt any more than aliens when it comes to how fast someone jumps in the chair. Certainly you can imagine a superior ready room where someone actually opts into Command prior to the match starting (for all its faults of being a crappy FPS/RTS hybrid compared with NS1, I think Savage did this?)
But I do particularly love the LoL-style build order suggestion. Provide 3 templates for basic builds for each race with a clear label of the type of strategy being employed.
<!--quoteo(post=2054897:date=Jan 2 2013, 03:02 PM:name=Azaral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azaral @ Jan 2 2013, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They aren't bugged, its a graphics setting they introduced last patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they are bugged.
Taken from this thread; <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126296" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126296</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2049550:date=Dec 21 2012, 05:57 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Dec 21 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was not an intended change. It likely is a result of the changes in particle effects optimizations, but we aren't exactly sure how and why that would have happened. Looking into it.
Marines lack the tools aliens have, especially the availability to players without the commander doing something. Think about the things alien players are allowed to do regardless of what their commander is doing. You have 4 life forms you can evolve to (albeit without any of the nice extra attacks or upgrades) without your commander doing anything. With marine, you can't have access to your favorite weapon without the comm researching it.
Beyond that there is the survivability issue. Aliens self-heal, making it easier for a player to hold on to an investment. Marines aren't fast enough to scamper away and heal, so that 25 res flamethrower probably won't last long. This allows the aliens to accumulate more useful forms running around the level, which makes it harder for the marines to deal with. What would help a lot are 1) options i'm not waiting on the commander to open and 2) cheaper weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=2054911:date=Jan 2 2013, 05:23 PM:name=Bender the Offender)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bender the Offender @ Jan 2 2013, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines lack the tools aliens have, especially the availability to players without the commander doing something. Think about the things alien players are allowed to do regardless of what their commander is doing. You have 4 life forms you can evolve to (albeit without any of the nice extra attacks or upgrades) without your commander doing anything. With marine, you can't have access to your favorite weapon without the comm researching it.
Beyond that there is the survivability issue. Aliens self-heal, making it easier for a player to hold on to an investment. Marines aren't fast enough to scamper away and heal, so that 25 res flamethrower probably won't last long. This allows the aliens to accumulate more useful forms running around the level, which makes it harder for the marines to deal with. What would help a lot are 1) options i'm not waiting on the commander to open and 2) cheaper weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
early game aliens are already forced to expand to keep up with the superior tech/spawn rate of the marines and while i agree there is some issue with marine survivability early game (which is countered by numbers) the basic marine unit becomes stronger with every upgrade even if you have no map control at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2054905:date=Jan 2 2013, 10:16 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 2 2013, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you actually perform well as a Skulk with that attitude towards their movement skill? Because personally I find there's at least a medium amount of skill involved in wall-jumping and bunny-hopping to retain a high speed and general unpredictability. If anything, I feel the skill ceiling is higher for skulks to maximize effectiveness, compared with marines who are inherently pretty limited by the jump mechanics of the game and just have a simple hitscan weapon* on top of those rather simple movement mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it a lot harder to track something that is moving unpredictable than it is to move unpredictable. At least that is the feeling I get when playing skulk or (trying to) shoot good skulks. Maybe it is hit reg/animation that goes wonky when a skulk wall jumps, but I think it is just hard to track something moving seemingly random.
<!--quoteo(post=2054942:date=Jan 2 2013, 05:06 PM:name=Gorge Norris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorge Norris @ Jan 2 2013, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it a lot harder to track something that is moving unpredictable than it is to move unpredictable. At least that is the feeling I get when playing skulk or (trying to) shoot good skulks. Maybe it is hit reg/animation that goes wonky when a skulk wall jumps, but I think it is just hard to track something moving seemingly random.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is def true. Spamming the space bar is easier than tracking someone while they're spamming it.
<!--quoteo(post=2054831:date=Jan 2 2013, 11:51 AM:name=deathshroud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathshroud @ Jan 2 2013, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->only in games where marines have 1 to 3 players who have godlike aim have i seen total destruction of an alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. Normally I think that both sides are evenly matched but just had to ragequit a match 30 min ago because I was getting insta gipped, despite my best efforts to dodge incoming fire. I could literaly ambush them in midair, only to get gunned down instantly. One guy used shotguns and jetpack and was impossible to kill. 1 shot would kill me and he would rarely land, and when he did he would just fly back up. Not to mention their ability to escape a charging onos. The match ended for me when they desotryed our base with 2-3 exos, a bunch of repair bots and mobile artillery. Sure it's possible to ambush and kill a lone exosuit, but these pros will cut you down in a split second. NO CHANCE TO REACT! NON! You can make all kind of arguments about how I'm a bad player (even though I've played games for 18 years), or that you shoulnd't let marines get into lategame and blablabla, but from now on I am certain that marines are stronger if the players controlling them have godlike aim.
PS. It might sound like an aimbot script, but it wasn't just one guy... and if you played CS then you know it to be true.
<!--quoteo(post=2054988:date=Jan 2 2013, 06:58 PM:name=Cryonics)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cryonics @ Jan 2 2013, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This. Normally I think that both sides are evenly matched but just had to ragequit a match 30 min ago because I was getting insta gipped, despite my best efforts to dodge incoming fire. I could literaly ambush them in midair, only to get gunned down instantly. One guy used shotguns and jetpack and was impossible to kill. 1 shot would kill me and he would rarely land, and when he did he would just fly back up. Not to mention their ability to escape a charging onos. The match ended for me when they desotryed our base with 2-3 exos, a bunch of repair bots and mobile artillery. Sure it's possible to ambush and kill a lone exosuit, but these pros will cut you down in a split second. NO CHANCE TO REACT! NON! You can make all kind of arguments about how I'm a bad player (even though I've played games for 18 years), or that you shoulnd't let marines get into lategame and blablabla, but from now on I am certain that marines are stronger if the players controlling them have godlike aim.
PS. It might sound like an aimbot script, but it wasn't just one guy... and if you played CS then you know it to be true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for someone that has been playing for "18 years" then you surely would have been the vet once or twice? unless youre one of those ppl that play a game for a week and jump to something else for whatever reason.
<!--quoteo(post=2054952:date=Jan 2 2013, 05:44 PM:name=Bender the Offender)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bender the Offender @ Jan 2 2013, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is def true. Spamming the space bar is easier than tracking someone while they're spamming it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but skillful skulk movement is a lot more than just spamming spacebar. A skulk who's simply jumping constantly isn't all that much more unpredictable than one running in a straight line. It's the ones who randomly zip up the wall and jump off it who are the real threats.
Comments
A marine base with no marines in it is extremely easy to take offline, but a marine base with marines in it is nearly impossible to take offline, regardless of the force with which you attack.
On the other hand, even an empty hive can be a timely process to clear, however even if alien players are inside the hive room, it doesn't make it all that much harder to clear.
The fact that you're unaware of the relatively high skill ceiling of skulks backs this up (as a marine I just have to keep my mouse on the target and jump in certain ways to evade bites; as skulk you have access to much more elaborate evasion patterns and bunny hopping.) I get about 2:1 ratio average on marine too, but often 3:1 or better as alien. Notably these are KDs achieved <i>without focusing on KD,</i> because the most effective player in NS2 cares more about maximizing damage against key enemy structures than minimizing personal death count.
The fact that you're unaware of the relatively high skill ceiling of skulks backs this up (as a marine I just have to keep my mouse on the target and jump in certain ways to evade bites; as skulk you have access to much more elaborate evasion patterns and bunny hopping.) I get about 2:1 ratio average on marine too, but often 3:1 or better as alien. Notably these are KDs achieved <i>without focusing on KD,</i> because the most effective player in NS2 cares more about maximizing damage against key enemy structures than minimizing personal death count.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you truly do play alien well, then you will know how easy a "100% accuracy rate" is to get as skulk. That is the skill ceiling with regards to offense. You should also know that an accuracy rate of 100% with marines is essentially impossible to get, so the skill ceiling for marines, or indeed any shooter based mechanic, is essentially infinitely high as nobody will ever achieve it.
Marine skill ceiling is higher than skulks.
Yeah I only said "seem to" because I wasn't 100% sure. Thanks for clearing it up.
Marines - high skill ceiling, high skill floor
Marines have a huge aim and co-ordination requirement and that only matters for aliens at the highest level of competitive play. In most levels of comp play you can still go 1v1 as a skulk against a marine in a good position. In those same levels fades and lerks are extremely strong and can harass without fear of getting hit by half a magazine and dying.
Suggestions:
Currently a lot of the alien/marine advantage comes from performance issues, network interp, and animation stutter. This needs to get out of the way first as it effects balance in a way that can't really be tracked and once it's fixed there is no doubt that aliens will have a much harder time playing.
The best way imo to handle meta balance is by giving the marines more tools to learn to play better or to co-ordinate better. Some ways to do this:
- dota-style build order for commanders, as well as a checklist of things to do. Simple, straightforward.
- good ingame commander tutorial that players are either required or encouraged to go through.
- commanders NEED to start inside the chair when the game starts. This whole downtime can destroy marine advantage as it doesn't really matter that much for aliens, aliens hardly ever need a commander unlike marines do. In fact the best tip for alien comm would be to pop out of the hive to harass or build stuff as a gorge, as you are wasting gathering res and what you can do when outside the hive if you don't this.
- better over-all marine commander functionality. A lot of features that are in modern RTS games are missing, such as squads, group orders and hotkeys, queuing, hotkey setup, stat and status counter for your marines, and any features that reward APM. It's been forever since NS1 and the game has not evolved comparatively to actual RTS games, and is missing some of the core feature even found in old RTS games that should be in commander view.
Aliens need some skill-based movement mechanic. Where marines have aim, aliens only have their basic movement which is not difficult to learn. walljumping is easy and leap is hardly ever there. Shadowstep is brainless and a lot more useful than blink alone. Lerk flight is okay, but spores and biting are impossible to do against marines at the highest level. Having spores shoot out instead of dropped or the lerk being tankier but not able to spike as much, both are ideas. Without skill-based movement high level balance is thrown out the window, and you have marines that are godmode so aliens have to resort to lame tactics to win that are not fun to play against, such as base rushes or structure spam.
Actually in NS1, spores used to be shot out like umbra. I was disappointed that the changed spores, but I can see why they did. Before, a lerk could safely hide in a vent and spam spores into a base. Now, it forces the lerk to take a risk which allows the marines to have counter play.
A 25 flamethrower denies a lerk anywhere in a map. Remove flamethrower and then things are even.
Lerks having to fly into marines and die to less half a magazine of a rifle even with carapace is the counter to spores. And this does not even count in a marine being able to 180 you with a shotgun and then it's gg 30 res wasted. Why bother risking when you can save the resources and not get spores? Spikes alone is all a lerk needs to be useful through the entire game.
Lerks having to fly into marines and die to less half a magazine of a rifle even with carapace is the counter to spores. And this does not even count in a marine being able to 180 you with a shotgun and then it's gg 30 res wasted. Why bother risking when you can save the resources and not get spores? Spikes alone is all a lerk needs to be useful through the entire game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that's about how I feel too. I survive far longer and do far more damage to the marine team when I don't try to use Spores. I don't necessarily fear shotguns as a lerk, generally speaking, but certainly it becomes a strong counter if I try to use Spores.
Anyway, marines are not weak, but they do have more difficulty in a pub setting when the alien team knows how to play. Before the Steam sale we saw the alien winrate gradually go up and up as players became more competent, and it's starting to happen again. I think the main cause is that pub players are not as comfortable with the aggressive and coordinated playstyle that is required of marines to win the game. When both teams are uncoordinated, aliens tend to win by default because they are better suited to that playstyle.
Anyway, marines are not weak, but they do have more difficulty in a pub setting when the alien team knows how to play. Before the Steam sale we saw the alien winrate gradually go up and up as players became more competent, and it's starting to happen again. I think the main cause is that pub players are not as comfortable with the aggressive and coordinated playstyle that is required of marines to win the game. When both teams are uncoordinated, aliens tend to win by default because they are better suited to that playstyle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't bugged, its a graphics setting they introduced last patch.
also there is nothing to upgrade, nothing to defend the powernode exept turrets that are useless and waste of res, most of them you don't even have to clear turrets in order to get to the powernode.
all i wish is somekind of building or upgrades to defend the powernode, like statis field on buildings that stops incoming bilebombs aslong as that building has "armor" left ?
Marines - high skill ceiling, high skill floor
Marines have a huge aim and co-ordination requirement and that only matters for aliens at the highest level of competitive play. In most levels of comp play you can still go 1v1 as a skulk against a marine in a good position. In those same levels fades and lerks are extremely strong and can harass without fear of getting hit by half a magazine and dying.
Suggestions:
Currently a lot of the alien/marine advantage comes from performance issues, network interp, and animation stutter. This needs to get out of the way first as it effects balance in a way that can't really be tracked and once it's fixed there is no doubt that aliens will have a much harder time playing.
The best way imo to handle meta balance is by giving the marines more tools to learn to play better or to co-ordinate better. Some ways to do this:
- dota-style build order for commanders, as well as a checklist of things to do. Simple, straightforward.
- good ingame commander tutorial that players are either required or encouraged to go through.
- commanders NEED to start inside the chair when the game starts. This whole downtime can destroy marine advantage as it doesn't really matter that much for aliens, aliens hardly ever need a commander unlike marines do. In fact the best tip for alien comm would be to pop out of the hive to harass or build stuff as a gorge, as you are wasting gathering res and what you can do when outside the hive if you don't this.
- better over-all marine commander functionality. A lot of features that are in modern RTS games are missing, such as squads, group orders and hotkeys, queuing, hotkey setup, stat and status counter for your marines, and any features that reward APM. It's been forever since NS1 and the game has not evolved comparatively to actual RTS games, and is missing some of the core feature even found in old RTS games that should be in commander view.
Aliens need some skill-based movement mechanic. Where marines have aim, aliens only have their basic movement which is not difficult to learn. walljumping is easy and leap is hardly ever there. Shadowstep is brainless and a lot more useful than blink alone. Lerk flight is okay, but spores and biting are impossible to do against marines at the highest level. Having spores shoot out instead of dropped or the lerk being tankier but not able to spike as much, both are ideas. Without skill-based movement high level balance is thrown out the window, and you have marines that are godmode so aliens have to resort to lame tactics to win that are not fun to play against, such as base rushes or structure spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you actually perform well as a Skulk with that attitude towards their movement skill? Because personally I find there's at least a medium amount of skill involved in wall-jumping and bunny-hopping to retain a high speed and general unpredictability. If anything, I feel the skill ceiling is higher for skulks to maximize effectiveness, compared with marines who are inherently pretty limited by the jump mechanics of the game and just have a simple hitscan weapon* on top of those rather simple movement mechanics.
*Even CoD requires a bit of bursting to maximize DPS output, but NS2 is pure 100% accurate hitscan. I don't think NS2 needs to change, but this is a discussion on skill depth and 100% accurate hitscan weapons are not particularly deep.
I don't disagree with your overall post though. Your suggestions overall are good ones. Though NS2 does have limited control group functionality, it's pretty weak/busted by modern RTS standards. And while they could clean up the command experience considerably I'm not sure marines are hurt any more than aliens when it comes to how fast someone jumps in the chair. Certainly you can imagine a superior ready room where someone actually opts into Command prior to the match starting (for all its faults of being a crappy FPS/RTS hybrid compared with NS1, I think Savage did this?)
But I do particularly love the LoL-style build order suggestion. Provide 3 templates for basic builds for each race with a clear label of the type of strategy being employed.
No they are bugged.
Taken from this thread; <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126296" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126296</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2049550:date=Dec 21 2012, 05:57 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Dec 21 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was not an intended change. It likely is a result of the changes in particle effects optimizations, but we aren't exactly sure how and why that would have happened. Looking into it.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Beyond that there is the survivability issue. Aliens self-heal, making it easier for a player to hold on to an investment. Marines aren't fast enough to scamper away and heal, so that 25 res flamethrower probably won't last long. This allows the aliens to accumulate more useful forms running around the level, which makes it harder for the marines to deal with. What would help a lot are 1) options i'm not waiting on the commander to open and 2) cheaper weapons.
Beyond that there is the survivability issue. Aliens self-heal, making it easier for a player to hold on to an investment. Marines aren't fast enough to scamper away and heal, so that 25 res flamethrower probably won't last long. This allows the aliens to accumulate more useful forms running around the level, which makes it harder for the marines to deal with. What would help a lot are 1) options i'm not waiting on the commander to open and 2) cheaper weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
early game aliens are already forced to expand to keep up with the superior tech/spawn rate of the marines and while i agree there is some issue with marine survivability early game (which is countered by numbers) the basic marine unit becomes stronger with every upgrade even if you have no map control at all.
I think it a lot harder to track something that is moving unpredictable than it is to move unpredictable. At least that is the feeling I get when playing skulk or (trying to) shoot good skulks. Maybe it is hit reg/animation that goes wonky when a skulk wall jumps, but I think it is just hard to track something moving seemingly random.
This is def true. Spamming the space bar is easier than tracking someone while they're spamming it.
I hope you are talking about a different game, your game sound boring.
This. Normally I think that both sides are evenly matched but just had to ragequit a match 30 min ago because I was getting insta gipped, despite my best efforts to dodge incoming fire. I could literaly ambush them in midair, only to get gunned down instantly.
One guy used shotguns and jetpack and was impossible to kill. 1 shot would kill me and he would rarely land, and when he did he would just fly back up. Not to mention their ability to escape a charging onos.
The match ended for me when they desotryed our base with 2-3 exos, a bunch of repair bots and mobile artillery. Sure it's possible to ambush and kill a lone exosuit, but these pros will cut you down in a split second. NO CHANCE TO REACT! NON!
You can make all kind of arguments about how I'm a bad player (even though I've played games for 18 years), or that you shoulnd't let marines get into lategame and blablabla, but from now on I am certain that marines are stronger if the players controlling them have godlike aim.
PS. It might sound like an aimbot script, but it wasn't just one guy... and if you played CS then you know it to be true.
One guy used shotguns and jetpack and was impossible to kill. 1 shot would kill me and he would rarely land, and when he did he would just fly back up. Not to mention their ability to escape a charging onos.
The match ended for me when they desotryed our base with 2-3 exos, a bunch of repair bots and mobile artillery. Sure it's possible to ambush and kill a lone exosuit, but these pros will cut you down in a split second. NO CHANCE TO REACT! NON!
You can make all kind of arguments about how I'm a bad player (even though I've played games for 18 years), or that you shoulnd't let marines get into lategame and blablabla, but from now on I am certain that marines are stronger if the players controlling them have godlike aim.
PS. It might sound like an aimbot script, but it wasn't just one guy... and if you played CS then you know it to be true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for someone that has been playing for "18 years" then you surely would have been the vet once or twice? unless youre one of those ppl that play a game for a week and jump to something else for whatever reason.
Sure, but skillful skulk movement is a lot more than just spamming spacebar. A skulk who's simply jumping constantly isn't all that much more unpredictable than one running in a straight line. It's the ones who randomly zip up the wall and jump off it who are the real threats.