Why do people think marine is weak?
Inhanzt
Join Date: 2013-01-01 Member: 176912Members
Join Date: 2013-01-01 Member: 176912Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Seriously, can any of you aim?</div>Several friends and I are unable to comprehend the opinion this forum that marines are somehow weaker than aliens. We're generally in agreement that alien is far harder to win as, and that marines are the blatantly better side. Personal experience serves as the main evidence supporting this, but other than that it's generally impossible for us to join marine at the same time on a public server, so I'm willing to wager that other players have found the same issue.
Perhaps it's just because most gamers have played a first person shooter, and few have played a first person biter, but I think it's more than that. You can just assume I'm terrible if your worldview relies on marines being underpowered in NS2, but as an example i can generally maintain a 2:1 K:D on marines while drunk, but find more than a 1:1 K:D on aliens difficult. I don't want to have a preference for which side to play, but in practice marine is so much easier to do well on that I prefer it.
For basic units, marines have a far higher skill ceiling, and gain more power as the game progresses, yet the balance remains relatively even towards the start of the game. After marines start getting upgrades to armor and weapons, their side is more or less on lock-down. Marines with upgrades can beat aliens IN MELEE if neither side misses -- did anyone on the development team even bother to compare perfectly played marine versus perfectly played alien?
Marines get straight up, no-brainer, passive improvements that are applied at all times. Even if a given marine is TERRIBLE, at the end of the game he takes more bites to kill than he did at the start. Where are these passive improvements for aliens? Aliens only receive evolved improvements, which often require skill to use. When a marine dies, they're back in 5 seconds with all upgrades applied to them automatically; when an alien dies, they have to wait 12+ seconds, then spend some time re-evolving whatever is available to them. Is your base under attack? TOO BAD ALIEN, SHOULD HAVE PLAYED MARINE! Go fight without any upgrades. Want to jump in an exo? No problem, it's instantly ready to go! Want to play an onos? Go make a sandwich, it's going to be a while.
All marine units can edge (kill) any alien or alien structure from a safe distance. In contrast the basic alien unit is ALWAYS VULNERABLE while doing its damage, which stands out to an extreme when attempting to kill marine structures and power nodes. On alien side, the normal course of the game includes unlearning evolution as the game progresses and some important building is destroyed. This has NEVER HAPPENED to me on marine. Either this is the most patent example of side favoritism this game has to offer, or marine is so good that this has never happened to me on this side.
While I understand that public servers are ostensibly not important to some subset of the players on this forum, I honestly don't care about those players at all. If this game becomes popular on public servers, some competitive rule-set/mod can easily follow. If this game never becomes popular among common players, it can only hope for a cult following of a few thousand dedicated players, and will die in due time as each player leaves for the next competitive experience.
Perhaps it's just because most gamers have played a first person shooter, and few have played a first person biter, but I think it's more than that. You can just assume I'm terrible if your worldview relies on marines being underpowered in NS2, but as an example i can generally maintain a 2:1 K:D on marines while drunk, but find more than a 1:1 K:D on aliens difficult. I don't want to have a preference for which side to play, but in practice marine is so much easier to do well on that I prefer it.
For basic units, marines have a far higher skill ceiling, and gain more power as the game progresses, yet the balance remains relatively even towards the start of the game. After marines start getting upgrades to armor and weapons, their side is more or less on lock-down. Marines with upgrades can beat aliens IN MELEE if neither side misses -- did anyone on the development team even bother to compare perfectly played marine versus perfectly played alien?
Marines get straight up, no-brainer, passive improvements that are applied at all times. Even if a given marine is TERRIBLE, at the end of the game he takes more bites to kill than he did at the start. Where are these passive improvements for aliens? Aliens only receive evolved improvements, which often require skill to use. When a marine dies, they're back in 5 seconds with all upgrades applied to them automatically; when an alien dies, they have to wait 12+ seconds, then spend some time re-evolving whatever is available to them. Is your base under attack? TOO BAD ALIEN, SHOULD HAVE PLAYED MARINE! Go fight without any upgrades. Want to jump in an exo? No problem, it's instantly ready to go! Want to play an onos? Go make a sandwich, it's going to be a while.
All marine units can edge (kill) any alien or alien structure from a safe distance. In contrast the basic alien unit is ALWAYS VULNERABLE while doing its damage, which stands out to an extreme when attempting to kill marine structures and power nodes. On alien side, the normal course of the game includes unlearning evolution as the game progresses and some important building is destroyed. This has NEVER HAPPENED to me on marine. Either this is the most patent example of side favoritism this game has to offer, or marine is so good that this has never happened to me on this side.
While I understand that public servers are ostensibly not important to some subset of the players on this forum, I honestly don't care about those players at all. If this game becomes popular on public servers, some competitive rule-set/mod can easily follow. If this game never becomes popular among common players, it can only hope for a cult following of a few thousand dedicated players, and will die in due time as each player leaves for the next competitive experience.
Comments
<img src="http://www.janitorbros.com/Bro_Fist.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
And yeah, after the initial zerg rush, Marines should be able to come back (and maybe even win between the 5 and 10 minute mark before Fades/Onos) as long as they hold 3 or more Rt including the one at base.
If the marine commander or marines are smart, they won't let the powernode go down. I've seen a commander put arms labs blocking the powernode so it couldnt' be destroyed.
And yeah, after the initial zerg rush, Marines should be able to come back (and maybe even win between the 5 and 10 minute mark before Fades/Onos) as long as they hold 3 or more Rt including the one at base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what I've seen in pub play with 18+ slot player srevers, the Marines never win if they don't control a 2nd location that has a tech point for another command chair, even if they have 3 or more rt's the whole game.
You're probably talking about a robotics lab.
The only thing it hinders is an onos getting an easy angle on the node. Bile bomb will just destroy two buildings instead of 1.
Still, two onos or a few gorge on a power node can drop it quicker than the bugged alerting system responding.
The only thing it hinders is an onos getting an easy angle on the node. Bile bomb will just destroy two buildings instead of 1.
Still, two onos or a few gorge on a power node can drop it quicker than the bugged alerting system responding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right it was probably the robotics lab. However, what I'm talking about is that robotics labs completely obscure the powernode, so the only possible way to destroy the node is by taking out the labs first.... although in the case of the bilebomb, does it do damage through buildings?
Also, if you have 2 onos's and or a few gorge's attacking a powernode without any marine support or very little marine support... that is the fault of the marine team and/or commander.
I can see in small 6v6 matches where it wouldn't be possible to really have the cover for it with the lack of players, but in pub play with 18+ servers, it is usually not a problem.
Also, if you have 2 onos's and or a few gorge's attacking a powernode without any marine support or very little marine support... that is the fault of the marine team and/or commander.
I can see in small 6v6 matches where it wouldn't be possible to really have the cover for it with the lack of players, but in pub play with 18+ servers, it is usually not a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bile will cut through buildings.
For the most part, the responsibility can be palmed to the commander and his team to pay attention to any attacks. But there are a few main base power placements which are just horrid and prone to gorge. The alerting on power nodes under attack is flimsy and if two adren gorges start unloading an energy bar on a power node, you need to beacon/get out of the chair within 3-4 seconds or that's your main base down. As much as the game is asymmetrical, there is a far greater onus (pardon the pun) on a marine commander paying attention than an alien comm. The worst an alien comm can face is a sneaky phase in a hive if you've left spots un-cysted.
I know that's the "smart" thing to do. I just refuse to do it. It's only a small step down from blocking the node entirely with an armoury (though I understand it's not QUITE as bad as at least the powernode can be hit without bile). It just feels lame and exploitative, and I kind of wish UWE would implement a no-build zone around the powernode. Although I sympathise that people are just trying to circumvent what they feel is a poor game mechanic.
This is coming from somebody who doesn't agree with armoury walling either though, so I'm probably a minority opinion when it comes to structure blocking.
Although I disagree that powernodes are all that bad. Often I feel it's not even the best thing to go for the powernode, unless it's in a really good position to attack (e.g. operations power node). If it's a 2nd/3rd/4th techpoint and there are no IPs, I will generally take the obs down to prevent a beacon (if there is an obs+cc) and then just attack the phase gate to catch marines phasing through. Then when it's the last techpoint, just go for the Command Station, so that you don't have to clean up the remaining marines in the room after destroying it. Pile enough onoses in and just ignore everything else and there's nothing they can do. The only thing I dislike about powernodes is that it makes it more difficult to put up a ninja phase gate.
With regards to the OP, I actually don't know what happened since the last beta builds that caused such an imbalance favouring aliens. I feel that marines SHOULD have the advantage too. Their attacks are more powerful (as long as you can aim), they progressively get 'passive improvements' as you said, have access to most of their arsenal and upgrades at 1 tech point, and actually have the mobility advantage due to phase gates and beacon. Maybe it's onos, but onos was always good and there wasn't a massive imbalance favouring aliens before was there? And they've since removed the ability to onos on 2nd hive, which was a huge cause of imbalance. The only buffs the aliens have gotten that springs to mind is camo improvements, blink/shadowstep improvements, and crags actually becoming useful. It can't just be the new players causing an imbalance because it is still (even more?) alien favoured in competitive play.
Yup. So many times have I seen a few gorges literally solo a base node with bile while the marines are pushing and fighting heavily with onos or whatever. Marines are not weak at all. A deadly marine can keep a high kill counter but it really means nothing if the gorges or single onos or whatever rush a marine base and ninja the node fast. Bam entire base lost and while I use to think "why not check the map all the time", sometimes you are so caught up in a push that you get no warning and the button is being assaulted at range with a lerk and whatnot so it is only blinking black or gray. Meanwhile aliens get to keep everything even if the hive goes down. Not that I find a problem with this but maybe they should just reassign the node function or at least give the poor thing some health. Seriously they go down so fast. I find it hilarious when aliens attack everything but the node in the base because of how vulnerable the base is once the nodes is gone.
But with the node gone the marines could turn really deadly and relentless so I am not sure what should be done. Maybe give it more health or an option for commander to build backup power that keeps structures alive for a limited time after the node goes down maybe 10-15 secs. Just so that the marines can retake a base if it was say 1 gorge that ruined everything but if it was an entire alien team I doubt the base would last long either way. I think if they remove the node, the win rate will shift a little towards marine but not that much as aliens could target phases and would have to worry about becons if available. I play both all the time and the node seems like wildcard to hit if you are lucky because otherwise it will be a never ending steam of marines through the phase gates. I know the aliens could target the phase gate but they are usually near the center of a base with the other structures and sentries plus the commander could always becon if needed. So it really does seem like an I win button because it is so far away most of the time.
It's a kind of yin-yang balance, skill wise, that will bring proper equilibrium.. <== Noone is going to understand that(<u>?</u>)
So, what I mean is that the way I perceived NS & NS2 to be or what I think it's meant to be is the marines are 'all-rounders' and the aliens are 'specialized'. Having said that I am dissapointed that there are NOT more upgrades for aliens.
<img src="http://www.gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Arcade/Select/Thumb/Thumb_Turbo_Out_Run_-_1989_-_Sega.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
yeah except you totally forgot the fact that you have to have a second CC, researched advanced armory, researched exo and then researched double mini-gun for your teamates to drop that 75 awesome res. And for the 75 res onos, have you heard of a thing called mist? Did you know you can get onos with just one hive?
tire of scrubs who join the forum just to whinge.
I find it interesting that in the beta builds all the way up to release, marines were the ones with the higher win rates. Imagine the stats just about flipped from where they are now. Many beta players were very worried as to how this would affect the game on launch, but something strange happened. A new factor was added into the equation: <u>Player Skill</u>
Sure, in the beta some people were better than others, and that did affect the outcome of games. But with a wave of new players, the mean player skill level was severely dropped. And all of a sudden, the win rates switched.
Now, I want to step back for a moment and say something to the developers. Take everything you hear now with a grain of salt. NS2 is at a state right now with a huge influx of new players, and that means entire mechanics may go misused or misinterpreted. While balance needs to apply to everyone, just realize that as the player base normalizes, balance will change on it's own once again. We can't just look at the current state and make an evaluation for what needs to be changed. Sure, it is data that must be used and analyzed as to what it actually means, but it's not the only thing that needs fixing. Just like choosing whether to balance for the competitive scene, or the pub scene, we have to balance for new and veteran players.
Punishment for failure disparity is too high between the two comms but not sure what to do to fix it. Maybe an instant/1 second beacon for 40 res or something but must be upgraded to advanced obs for 20 res plus a timed beacon. Or a power node upgrade that triggers a nano-shield when below 50% hp and costs 20 res and a one time use. Must be researched again to use. High cost upgrades but could save the game, could be difficult to balance though so just random suggestions.
Yeah I know it's pretty much been 'officially' encouraged - at least, armory walling is (I did see that segment during the release tournament where Flayra talked about it). I'm unsure about robo-blocking the powernode, but I don't imagine that's considered foul-play in competitive play either. I did mention I am of a minority opinion.
I think the alert system needs fixing first of all, because it is really annoying to have to have my players have to tell me my futuristic-space-base-power core is being rammed by a giant space rhino and I somehow overlooked it.
Yeah, some simple GRAB YOUR ATTENTION RIGHT NOW noises that triggered correctly would be nice.
Perhaps main base power nodes can be upgraded to level2 for 40res or something.
Punishment for failure disparity is too high between the two comms but not sure what to do to fix it. Maybe an instant/1 second beacon for 40 res or something but must be upgraded to advanced obs for 20 res plus a timed beacon. Or a power node upgrade that triggers a nano-shield when below 50% hp and costs 20 res and a one time use. Must be researched again to use. High cost upgrades but could save the game, could be difficult to balance though so just random suggestions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree with you. I think that the power node is too easy of an weakness. Tell me an weakness for the aliens that can completely shut down a team as strong as taking down a power node for the marines?
I even thought about having an upgrade that allows the power node to do passive damage to anyone that attacks it, to help deter skulks and gorges.
If anything, power nodes should not be tied to marine respawn. You have to take down an aliens hive to stop them from respawning from eggs (or just kill the eggs), but killing the power node completly shuts down all the upgrades, repsawn and everything. It feels super broken.
My marine team had 3 tech point rooms but only 2 comm chairs and 2 IPs in the same room, and we lost because no marine was willing to defend the base while the others pushed. The game is broken.
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv//esltv/b/339118814" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv//esltv/b/339118814</a>
@ 43m 55s. Not a bad idea :P
<img src="http://www.janitorbros.com/Bro_Fist.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I should say that don't I like the powernode personally, and I kinda wish it was never introduced so that the game could be balanced accordingly.
Without the power node being an instant win, you'd see aliens lose a LOT more. I guarantee it.
<!--quoteo(post=2054508:date=Jan 1 2013, 09:58 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Jan 1 2013, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the weakness of the powernode is balanced out by the fact that marines have the mobility advantage in that they're much more easily able to get back to their base quickly through beacon and phase gate and therefore can respond to a rush better than aliens can (although smart drifter placement gives aliens the ability to see a rush before it comes), have a much better ability to turtle with their base classes they spawn with, and seem to respawn a lot faster than aliens do.
I should say that don't I like the powernode personally, and I kinda wish it was never introduced so that the game could be balanced accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't seem to respawn faster, they do respawn faster. 7 seconds per marine per IP. Aliens are on a spawn wave. Waves constantly tick down 12 seconds. You have to be in the wave for at LEAST 2 seconds, and an egg needs to be available, or you're waiting 12+ seconds for a spawn.