<!--quoteo(post=2053827:date=Dec 31 2012, 12:45 PM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Dec 31 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guess what, NS1 was extremely successful, and it wasn't because it catered to the downies. It was because it provided a game with a very high skill ceiling that was unattainable by most, it gave people something to work and strive for, it fostered teamwork, because without it, you die. The very title of this game is reflective of the attitude it has towards the lowest common denominator. Only the strong survive. If you can't be bothered to learn to play properly, or you dislike the way the game is played, LEAVE. This isn't the game for you if you want to hop into a server and play nuketown for 15 minutes. This is a game for strategy, skill, and teamwork. If you are unable or unwilling to play this game for what it is, instead of trying to change it into something you want, then it isn't for you. This community will persist with or without people like you. It has for 10 years and will continue to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, people like me? So people that want rookies to learn this game without some Commander with a stick up his ass recycling everything 5 minutes into the game and typing "GG ###### TEAM" in all chat? Also NS1 was successful for 10 years because NS was a ######ing free Half Life mod, you except people to pay up $25 for a game that calls them a piece of crap and then they tell all their friends to buy it it's fun?
There's A LOT of things that can be done in game to help out rookies without affecting balance; Improve Feedback for both doing damage and taking damage, improve tutorials, make what room they are in more clear, let Marines build power nodes without the Commander telling them first, make it clear what exactly is the difference between Normal Damage, Light Damage and Burn Damage. Should we just not do this because "THOSE DAMNED PUBBIES GOTTA LEARN!!!!"?
<!--quoteo(post=2053854:date=Dec 31 2012, 03:46 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 31 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, people like me? So people that want rookies to learn this game without some Commander with a stick up his ass recycling everything 5 minutes into the game and typing "GG ###### TEAM" in all chat? Also NS1 was successful for 10 years because NS was a ######ing free Half Life mod, you except people to pay up $25 for a game that calls them a piece of crap and then they tell all their friends to buy it it's fun?
There's A LOT of things that can be done in game to help out rookies without affecting balance; Improve Feedback for both doing damage and taking damage, improve tutorials, make what room they are in more clear, let Marines build power nodes without the Commander telling them first, make it clear what exactly is the difference between Normal Damage, Light Damage and Burn Damage. Should we just not do this because "THOSE DAMNED PUBBIES GOTTA LEARN!!!!"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns1 had a system where people could donate money to the dev team, guess what.. some people even paid more than 25 bucks.
and maybe thats the only way for some nubs to learn. if they finally figure out to listen to their com maybe they wont come on the forums and btch.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Improve Feedback for both doing damage and taking damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wtf? you mean the damage number indicator isnt enough?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->improve tutorials, make what room they are in more clear<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the screen tells you what room youre in..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->let Marines build power nodes without the Commander telling them first<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> wow you wouldve HATED ns1. imagine having to ASK for shotguns and other equipment. your entire argument can be summed up as " F the commander! i know what i wanna do! PEW PEW ALIENS!"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->make it clear what exactly is the difference between Normal Damage, Light Damage and Burn Damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you can blame this on noobs because glancing bite and attacks were added for THEM. when they spent months upon months crying on the forums.
<!--quoteo(post=2053819:date=Dec 31 2012, 12:17 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 31 2012, 12:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126317" target="_blank"> No, no.. I was TOLD sooo many times this was a GOOD thing... and that these rookies NEEDED to play against these types of players so they could "improve" their skill... </a>
So these "pub stomps" are just simply "learning grounds", it's not rape.. It's education...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except that is how you get better. It's baffling that a handful of people keep arguing that playing against better players <b>doesn't</b> make you better.
What, do you think the better players just started really awful, played really awful players and magically got 80 times better? I, and many other people, played maybe 5 hours of pubs before we started gathering. We immediately sought out higher skill levels and played against them. We'd get stomped, beat up on by the beta players who were so accustomed to the game. We certainly didn't get worse for the experience.
Even before the newest influx of Steam sales rookies, beating up on a pub was a joke. I'm not great at NS2, I'm not an above average gamer, I don't play an inordinate amount of time and I have only played since the day after release. So why do I do so much better than the next average joe who spends an equal time pubbing? I learned more quickly against a stiffer competition.
<!--quoteo(post=2053868:date=Dec 31 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 31 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except that is how you get better. It's baffling that a handful of people keep arguing that playing against better players <b>doesn't</b> make you better.
What, do you think the better players just started really awful, played really awful players and magically got 80 times better? I, and many other people, played maybe 5 hours of pubs before we started gathering. We immediately sought out higher skill levels and played against them. We'd get stomped, beat up on by the beta players who were so accustomed to the game. We certainly didn't get worse for the experience.
Even before the newest influx of Steam sales rookies, beating up on a pub was a joke. I'm not great at NS2, I'm not an above average gamer, I don't play an inordinate amount of time and I have only played since the day after release. So why do I do so much better than the next average joe who spends an equal time pubbing? I learned more quickly against a stiffer competition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And playing against all the new players is having the opposite effect. I started noticing I get really lazy with the dodging after playing a few matches against new players. I then go up against decent players and get rolled. Playing good players is the only way to get better(at least after you learn all of the basics).
You learn from losing matches this is true, but there's a difference between losing a match and learning what went wrong and how to fix it, and getting straight up blitzed without a chance of fighting back ever. All that does is discourage people, usually to the point of them quitting.
<!--quoteo(post=2053924:date=Dec 31 2012, 06:08 PM:name=pendelum5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pendelum5 @ Dec 31 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE should ban veterans from rookie-friendly servers, but allow rookies to play with veterans on normal servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah then we'd truly have the blind leading the blind
When you have the "rookie" status, players should be forced to go random every round. This will help prevent either team from being stacked with all noobs so they will be less likely to get crushed.
Better tool tips / hints for rookies would be good I guess, maybe a tutorial map sort of a "boot camp" for both marines & aliens to prepare you. But honestly it doesn't take that long to figure out the basics of this game.. the friends the OP is talking about who quit are just suffering from ADD. They don't just quit NS2, they quit every game they aren't instantly good at. Nothing the devs do will keep that type of player around. And to argue the devs should make marines buffed so they are easier to win with , based on some hairbrained idea that noobs only join marines is absurd. Everything about your logic, conclusions, and solutions is completely wrong. Noobs play aliens just as much as they play marines in every game I play in.
<!--quoteo(post=2053854:date=Dec 31 2012, 02:46 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 31 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, people like me? So people that want rookies to learn this game without some Commander with a stick up his ass recycling everything 5 minutes into the game and typing "GG ###### TEAM" in all chat? Also NS1 was successful for 10 years because NS was a ######ing free Half Life mod, you except people to pay up $25 for a game that calls them a piece of crap and then they tell all their friends to buy it it's fun?
There's A LOT of things that can be done in game to help out rookies without affecting balance; Improve Feedback for both doing damage and taking damage, improve tutorials, make what room they are in more clear, let Marines build power nodes without the Commander telling them first, make it clear what exactly is the difference between Normal Damage, Light Damage and Burn Damage. Should we just not do this because "THOSE DAMNED PUBBIES GOTTA LEARN!!!!"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are resources available to all who seek it. NS2 is very different from the original and it even took me a few days to get down the changes, yet I am successful now in 90% of my games. This isn't because I played the previous NS game for many years, mastered it, and that somehow provided a keyhole into being good at NS2. It's because I asked questions, read the forums, read tutorials and what was new and hopped in, took my early losses, and moved on. If you're this angry about losing, do something about it other than ask for handouts. The abomination of glancing hits, and damage types is the product of the very whining you are doing.
<!--quoteo(post=2053924:date=Dec 31 2012, 06:08 PM:name=pendelum5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pendelum5 @ Dec 31 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE should ban veterans from rookie-friendly servers, but allow rookies to play with veterans on normal servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes no sense. Then you have only noobs, noobing it up, not knowing better. Then they lose rookie status, go on a regular server and get reamed. Then they will come back here and make idiotic posts about how onos should have 100hp and marines need 250 round clips.
I've been playing Natural Selection for years, since 1.04 to be precise. I got steamrolled so many times back then I just cannot count, and yet I continued to play regularly until very recently, as soon as I could run NS2. I HAD to look for tutorials and stuff like that to play correctly in NS2 because I knew the game would be different and yada yada. Just the other day I found out I clearly sucked at a Skulk (being used to bhop and my poor rig didn't help) and I had to watch a couple of very simple tutorials and now I can safely kill 2 and sometimes more marines with ease, and these guys are definitely not rookies. I'm still a terrible commander but I'm willing to improve as well. You want to win as a Marine? Be very aggressive, listen to your commander and always put pressure on the Aliens, and that's pretty much it. Natural Selection is a very complex game that requires attention, skill and patience. Its name fits it like a glove. Once you get down to this, it becomes the single most rewarding teamwork-based multiplayer game in my opinion, even better than Team Fortress in that regard. It is no secret it is my favorite multiplayer game of all time, and NS2 is also very worthy of this.
Now on to the rookie subject; I think more hints could be a good thing for rookies, and don't forget there are like a dozen of tutorials already there in the main menu. I quite like the boot camp map, that could be available in the Explore mode and teach the basics in depth for each race. I actually quite like the scramble idea someone mentioned earlier, forcing everyone on rookie servers to go random, let's say two normal rounds and one scrambled. I remember a couple of NS1 servers had a similar system to prevent team stacking back in the day and it worked pretty well.
<!--quoteo(post=2053851:date=Jan 1 2013, 07:37 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jan 1 2013, 07:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->another problem is that even when you get an experienced com, most new players dont listen to em. they run off to die constantly with the other lemmings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2053933:date=Dec 31 2012, 05:26 PM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Dec 31 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are resources available to all who seek it. NS2 is very different from the original and it even took me a few days to get down the changes, yet I am successful now in 90% of my games. This isn't because I played the previous NS game for many years, mastered it, and that somehow provided a keyhole into being good at NS2. It's because I asked questions, read the forums, read tutorials and what was new and hopped in, took my early losses, and moved on. If you're this angry about losing, do something about it other than ask for handouts. The abomination of glancing hits, and damage types is the product of the very whining you are doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy ###### actually read what you are replying too for once, I'm asking to make it noob friendly for the sake of actually keeping people in this game, I didn't say anything about me being a struggling rookie. I've got 50 hours into NS2 which yeah, I know is a drop in the bucket for most people on these forums but it's also waaaaaay more then what 90% of the playerbase is gonna put into this game before walking away.
What's so funny (in a sad way) is that the usual suspects rushed in here to denigrate the OP - which totally supports his point about this game being unfriendly to new players. Despite that not being his literal point, these folks in here yelling at the OP just go to show how unfriendly the community has become to new players. I see the same thing in thread after thread in here. I suspect if these people had their way the new players wouldn't be able to play at all. (where is the rolling eyes smiley when I need it...)
Of course they'll whine at me now for pointing this out, further supporting my position, but sadly this won't help the game or the community.
<!--quoteo(post=2053868:date=Dec 31 2012, 06:45 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 31 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, no.. I was TOLD sooo many times this was a GOOD thing... and that these rookies NEEDED to play against these types of players so they could "improve" their skill...
So these "pub stomps" are just simply "learning grounds", it's not rape.. It's education...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except that is how you get better. It's baffling that a handful of people keep arguing that playing against better players <b>doesn't</b> make you better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh com'on, you know full well that there is a magnitude of difference between a 'challenge' and a pub stomp. The only thing the latter 'teaches' anyone is what it looks like to sit in the spawn queue.
I like a good challenge. It's why I played competitively for many years. However I also know that there comes a point when a person's skill is too far above for the match to be anything but a smack-down. It's not an education and it's certainly not fun. People subject to that often leave the game and never come back, and we can be sure they will tell their friends what they think of it too.
<!--quoteo(post=2054019:date=Jan 1 2013, 03:51 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 1 2013, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's so funny (in a sad way) is that the usual suspects rushed in here to denigrate the OP - which totally supports his point about this game being unfriendly to new players. Despite that not being his literal point, these folks in here yelling at the OP just go to show how unfriendly the community has become to new players. I see the same thing in thread after thread in here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People don't hate rookies, people hate green a-holes who come onto a server with a "I'm an FPS god and I do what ever the F I want" attitude. A rookie is a rookie, watch some tutorials, listen to your comm, ask for tips, know your place!
<!--quoteo(post=2054019:date=Dec 31 2012, 10:51 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 31 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's so funny (in a sad way) is that the usual suspects rushed in here to denigrate the OP - which totally supports his point about this game being unfriendly to new players. Despite that not being his literal point, these folks in here yelling at the OP just go to show how unfriendly the community has become to new players. I see the same thing in thread after thread in here. I suspect if these people had their way the new players wouldn't be able to play at all. (where is the rolling eyes smiley when I need it...)
Of course they'll whine at me now for pointing this out, further supporting my position, but sadly this won't help the game or the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resorting to ad hominem does not make your case any stronger. You can bash on the topic and disagree all you like, but the fact that "the usual suspects" disagree with you, this flimsy premise, and and the OP, does not make him any less wrong
I support any changes to make noobs feel welcome, but not to the game. The game should never change or be balanced because someone is new to it. As a playtester you'd think you'd realize that. I participated in many playtests back in THE DAY when the veteran program existed and before NS Combat and during it's release, and I don't remember Charlie ever being okay with that approach. Change the tutoring, change the learning, hell change the way people can learn, but don't balance the game around new people being new.
<!--quoteo(post=2054040:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:37 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 1 2013, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Resorting to ad hominem does not make your case any stronger. You can bash on the topic and disagree all you like, but the fact that "the usual suspects" disagree with you, this flimsy premise, and and the OP, does not make him any less wrong
I support any changes to make noobs feel welcome, but not to the game. The game should never change or be balanced because someone is new to it. As a playtester you'd think you'd realize that. I participated in many playtests back in THE DAY when the veteran program existed and before NS Combat and during it's release, and I don't remember Charlie ever being okay with that approach. Change the tutoring, change the learning, hell change the way people can learn, but don't balance the game around new people being new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well as a close-minded veteran you're certainly never going to change your mind.
However just because you're a loud-mouthed veteran doesn't make you correct. The healthiest thing for the game is for -- at a minimum -- balance to exist at a rookie level. The game should additionally have skill depth to remain interesting long-term, but if rookies play the game and walk away in the first 10 minutes (or first few days, if they last that long) then the game won't ever enjoy the success it deserves.
Again, you're not going to change your mind but if the devs listened to you they'd be making a mistake. 99% of the playerbase hasn't invested the 315+ hours into the game I have, and if they aren't having fun then they aren't word-of-mouthing to get their friends to play. The game needs to be fun for the majority of players who play it.
<!--quoteo(post=2054046:date=Jan 1 2013, 06:01 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 1 2013, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The healthiest thing for the game is for -- at a minimum -- balance to exist at a rookie level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh so that's why all the basketball rings outside NBA are 7 foot high instead of 10...
<!--quoteo(post=2054040:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:37 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 1 2013, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Resorting to ad hominem does not make your case any stronger. You can bash on the topic and disagree all you like, but the fact that "the usual suspects" disagree with you, this flimsy premise, and and the OP, does not make him any less wrong
I support any changes to make noobs feel welcome, but not to the game. The game should never change or be balanced because someone is new to it. As a playtester you'd think you'd realize that. I participated in many playtests back in THE DAY when the veteran program existed and before NS Combat and during it's release, and I don't remember Charlie ever being okay with that approach. Change the tutoring, change the learning, hell change the way people can learn, but don't balance the game around new people being new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This right here. 1000x
Hey guys, I'm new to NS2 (didn't play NS1 either). However, I've been playing Savage XR competitively for over 7 years, so we can say I'm not new to RTS/FPS hybrid games.
But here's NS2 newbie/first impression opinion:
1. Why do you use the term "Rookie"? Never heard of it. In the context it becomes clear that it means newbie/beginner though.
2. The performance was really disappointing. In Savage XR I get 400-600 FPS in a 60 player battle (which is even an OpenGL game, NS2 is directX based, i.e. should give higher performance), here I don't even get the minimum requirement of 120 FPS in a 4 on 4 game. How about a Quake style "poor" texture quality option? I mean, why not? NS2 has no foliage (trees, bushes, grass etc), all objects are polygonal. There would be no unfair advantage resulting from lower texture quality unlike in outdoor games.
3. Demo record was not in the game option. Why is that? And if you record them via console I get like 80 MB for a 20 minutes match. 80 MB, seriously? Game servers in this game run on like 40 FPS max I guess, teams are small and you barely see anyone as there's so much stealth (= enough data that doesn't have to be recorded), a 20 minute match shouldn't exceed 5 MB. Furthermore if you replay the demo and record with FRAPS it messes up the timescale (everything warps and slows down). Keep in mind that people uploading NS2 footage to youtube is free advertising that has a big impact on the playerbase these days. If fixing performance issues is a too big deal, highlight the demo record function and make an easy accessible demo to video exporter, so people can share their experiences about this game.
4. Why can't commanders paint on the minimap or at least place symbols that represent certain tasks? like here: <a href="http://youtu.be/ceKJ-btTPb4?t=9s" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/ceKJ-btTPb4?t=9s</a> Team communication can be so confusing und unclear, especially if you don't know the map well. When the commander says in VOIP: "go to xyz" I have to open the minimap and search that place, but why can't he just draw a circle around it, or even paint the path we should take to go there? He could even use different colors for different squads. Also enemy structure not staying visible on the minimap (maybe a bit faded out) once it's been discovered, contributes to that confusion.
5. NS2 early game is fantastic, both as alien and marine. But as soon as these higher tier aliens are available that you usually can't deal with alone, it becomes frustrating as the marine teamwork usually isn't good enough (Pub problem). The gameplay becomes too much choked and force vs force only. While in early game the stealth aspects are really fun, in late game the lack of a real combat system is really boring IMO. In Savage XR late game for instance we have the combat mechanics that keep the gameplay interesting <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pQxiAmgstM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pQxiAmgstM</a> How about adding strafe jumping in NS2? I guess that could be a little refreshing... people these days hate bunny hopping though - they are too concerned about how "realistic" a game looks. So I don't know :p
6. I haven't tried the commander mode yet, but I noticed that there's only little interaction. The commander does his part, the team does their part. How about the commander buffing field players or giving them weapons?
NS2 requires quite a bit of twitch shooting, but that's not the problem IMO. The only thing I would consider newbie unfriendly in NS2 is the dependence on team resources and tech. You're really f.ucked if the other team is in control. For someone not used to fight for a higher goal (destroying the base) it is really frustrating to fail that hard in 1 on 1 situations. It's pretty much like Quake duels: if you're out of control you're fuc.ked pretty much no matter how good your aim is. This major strategy dependence in skill based action gameplay is definitely not everyones thing.
These are my initial thoughts about NS2 after playing it for maybe 4 hours.
I'm going to throw my opinion into this, as invalid as it may be.
First off, any person who spouts off "L2P" (learn to play) as a solution to the problem in this game, seriously needs to be squelched or ignored. There is a very obvious problem with new player intro to this game, and pretending like we're initiating people into some special fraternity that only "smart people" are allowed to play is what actually buried ns1. This game has complexities to it that need to be taught properly, and pretending like "things will just work themselves out" is the wrong approach. A lot of players would be willing to put the time into the game if it was properly taught to them.
The devs seriously need to spectate rookie only servers when they do these steam sales, and actually watch the chaos that occurs. I go in only to command because I know how incredibly bad it becomes. People have no idea what to do. They don't want to watch some series of videos on how to play, they want to enter a game and expect it to help them figure things out. Currently the game fails in that respect - horribly. Also, there is a very weak point and almost a breaking point to this game. The comm - for both sides. Most people who are new to an RTS will play the single player version of it for 10s of hours before attempting multiplayer. In ns2 situation there is no intro to it and there are times when there is no one to command because no one knows how to, and thrown into the position it takes someone who does do it forever to figure all the small aspects of the game.
What is the solution? I'm not quite sure, but there needs to be a proper commander / bot combo that needs to be released so people can command with bots and figure out how to do it properly, so when they go in as rookie and command at least in some small aspect. Even if the bot game is bad in itself, allow them to just experiment more than what's there now.
Experience like LOL or just general tracking of stats. Only let people play against people who are similar. It needs to be added. Stop pretending like people are being fair about who they play with, because it does not happen. There are so many times I joined a rookie server in order to help people only to notice 3 obvious stompers who I have to play hard against just to even the game out. The problem is I end up pounding on newbies in order to get to the stompers, and become one myself. Pub stomping serious ######ed ns1 and it's causing problems in ns2. Some sort of real thought needs to be put into allowing people to play against similar levels of players.
OP has a lot of valid points about new players to the game, and people really have to stop pretending like they just need time to learn. That is not how popular games work. Popular games continue to be popular by being easy to learn, and hard to master. In the case of ns2, it's hard to master, and hard to learn. Let's change that.
<!--quoteo(post=2054040:date=Jan 1 2013, 03:37 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 1 2013, 03:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Resorting to ad hominem does not make your case any stronger. You can bash on the topic and disagree all you like, but the fact that "the usual suspects" disagree with you, this flimsy premise, and and the OP, does not make him any less wrong. I support any changes to make noobs feel welcome, but not to the game. The game should never change or be balanced because someone is new to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never said it did.
What I did say is the way in which the people REACTED to his post is abusive - and it was.
Cripes man the post directly below the one I made above said "know your place", which perfectly sums up the elitist attitude that exists amongst some of the people out here. Do you really want me to go back to page one and start pulling out quotes? Would that solve anything?
<b>The point I was making is that you can disagree with someone and be nice about it.</b> Or is that too hard?
The reality is that, imho, there are two things the game needs badly. A proper training module, and two sets of balance. (standard and advanced/competitive) Let all the 'pros' who really don't give a crap about anyone but themselves slug it out on the advanced servers, and then the new players can try to learn a game that has no instructions without getting pub-stomped or otherwise made to feel like crap. Of course I'm sure I'll hear the howls of objection about how this would "split the community" despite the fact that the community is split already. The OP perfectly demonstrated that, as did all the elitist 'learn to play noob' responses.
Bottom line? This game is unfriendly to new players, and this thread is dripping with the same egotistical arrogance they get on the servers as they get pub-stomped by the 'skilled' players who stack teams and laugh their way to an easy win.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->*snip* Be nice. --Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
To assume that 'pros' don't give a ###### because we disagree with your approaches to balance or handling of new players is just ridiculous.
Bottom line? There is a serious attitude problem among people today such that they have a lack of willingness to figure things out for themselves. This attitude is reinforced by savant and co who want to change the game and community to suit them but not realizing in doing so they make totally unappealing for anyone that has taken initiative.
Your hatred for good players is long past pathetic and frankly I wish you would stop ruining every thread on this forum.
Just watched a 'competitive' player help out a new player that managed to get stuck in the ready room when the round ended as gorge. He told him how he could join a team by using the console, and how to open the console. The new player was able to join the team he wanted and play.
I can guarantee 99% of the competitive players dont play public games to stack teams and spawn camp new players, most play to have fun like everyone else. Do you want comp players to purposefully play poorly? That doesnt do anything to improve the quality of games and the knowledge of all players. It also creates problems as people can recognize comp players and then expect them to play well, then get upset when they are not.
Honestly the most insulting and rude people are the players I run into on public servers that have 0 competitive experience, and talk like they know every single intimate detail about NS2, and anyone who says different is an idiotic baboon.
Its time to stop blaming the problems on the competitive players - you've done this since NS1 and nothing has changed, you look like just as much of a tool now as you did then, except now there isnt an army of idiots that think this way, just a select few that never seem to leave.
As for NS2's learning curve, everyone can agree its difficult to learn - however where its crucially different from NS1 is that its not difficult to master, its actually quite simple. The game needs to be easy on an entry level, but the correct way to approach that is not to make the game even easier - its proper tutorials/tooltips and guides. NS2 also needs much more depth and progression - it really doesnt take long to master 95% of the game, which then leads to the game becoming stale.
The AlgerianJoin Date: 2012-12-22Member: 175962Members
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo(post=2053693:date=Dec 31 2012, 03:56 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Dec 31 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With Christmas and all the Steam sales, we have a lot of new players. And the natural urge for a new player is to be a human holding a gun and not some species of alien totally foreign. Guess what happens when there are even a few new players on the marines versus aliens who are not new? The worst, blow-out, stupid, no fun games I have ever seen in online gaming.
I have been trying to get a handful of friends to start playing this game. I had one friend playing last night. We played 9 games as marines. We got absolutely blown out all 9 times. Most of the time the marines could not even hold an RT for more than a few seconds. Now I am not a new player. I know what the marines need to do to win. I have seen them win many times. Overall I'd say the marines win almost half the time. But when <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro--><b>I try to look through the eyes of a new player the way I it was running last night, I would have uninstalled this game in a heartbeat</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Word of mouth is very important to a game like this. I can't build a case to say tihs is a great game to my friends. After last night I am telling them I will let you know when they fix it.
I don't think it needs a major overhaul. It needs changes so that the marines do not get killed in a 1/2 a second in early game. Time and time again all I was seeing is one experienced skulk kill 1, 2, even 3 marines in a matter of a second or two. Now don't start telling me all this and that on how the marines need to aim better, stay together, yada yada yada. I know how to play. But a new player will and is getting killed time and time again as marine. And you multiply this ease of taking down 1 or more marines by one alien into the entire alien team base rushing and you get quite literally the worst gaming experience I have seen in a long long time.
Here are a few simple suggestions that I know are easy to do. Make the marines gun clips larger. Make the reload time shorter. Give him more armor at game start. There are many easy ways to adresss this. And if it throws the balance off a bit then adjust the aliens a bit if needed. But FIX THIS problem. This game is getting uninstalled left and right I am sure of it. And it doesn't deserve it. Its bad timing that Christmas came along with this problem being seen by all of these new players. All the more important to address it soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The very name <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Natural Selection</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 2 should give you a hint. It's the survival of the fittest, let those who are not fit uninstall the game, they're the ones who have to adapt. Not the game itself.
<!--quoteo(post=2054138:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:22 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 1 2013, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly the most insulting and rude people are the players I run into on public servers that have 0 competitive experience, and talk like they know every single intimate detail about NS2, and anyone who says different is an idiotic baboon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bottom line? There is a serious attitude problem among people today such that they have a lack of willingness to figure things out for themselves. This attitude is reinforced by savant and co who want to change the game and community to suit them but not realizing in doing so they make totally unappealing for anyone that has taken initiative.
Your hatred for good players is long past pathetic and frankly I wish you would stop ruining every thread on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is precisely your type of attitude which ruins the vet community reputation post by post. No idea if you are a "vet" or not. Savant never mentioned "good" players and it is funny how yourself proclaim to be one. But Ok, I ll bear with you...
I have no special reason to "hate" "good" players like yourself. I just joined this community and I have learned to enjoy this game despite people like you. I think I can consider myself included among those you see as "taking initiative" and those who eventually can at some point l2p. And yet, I am sure i am probably among a minority within the the pub community.
And without any previous conditioning or "hatred" of any kind, and speaking as a new player I have to agree this game is one of the least noob friendly I ve seen. This issue is then compounded by the fact pub gaming balance is so clearly against the more intuitive and noob friendly marines. And learn to play will never be the answer to either that or balancing in pub. Pub gaming is mostly all of it casual gaming by definition. And casual gamers never l2p the way a hard core vet would like. Ever. Only similarly minded hardcore players will, but not casual pub.
And casual players are the core of NS2 gamers, of any game out there. Don't know if a two tier balancing system is the answer but the casual pub community needs its balance directly addressed in priority to any other community group IMHO. Of course devs will do what they like but ignoring casual gamers (or thinking that l2p will take care of the issue) would be a mistake.
Comments
First off, people like me? So people that want rookies to learn this game without some Commander with a stick up his ass recycling everything 5 minutes into the game and typing "GG ###### TEAM" in all chat? Also NS1 was successful for 10 years because NS was a ######ing free Half Life mod, you except people to pay up $25 for a game that calls them a piece of crap and then they tell all their friends to buy it it's fun?
There's A LOT of things that can be done in game to help out rookies without affecting balance; Improve Feedback for both doing damage and taking damage, improve tutorials, make what room they are in more clear, let Marines build power nodes without the Commander telling them first, make it clear what exactly is the difference between Normal Damage, Light Damage and Burn Damage. Should we just not do this because "THOSE DAMNED PUBBIES GOTTA LEARN!!!!"?
There's A LOT of things that can be done in game to help out rookies without affecting balance; Improve Feedback for both doing damage and taking damage, improve tutorials, make what room they are in more clear, let Marines build power nodes without the Commander telling them first, make it clear what exactly is the difference between Normal Damage, Light Damage and Burn Damage. Should we just not do this because "THOSE DAMNED PUBBIES GOTTA LEARN!!!!"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns1 had a system where people could donate money to the dev team, guess what.. some people even paid more than 25 bucks.
and maybe thats the only way for some nubs to learn. if they finally figure out to listen to their com maybe they wont come on the forums and btch.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Improve Feedback for both doing damage and taking damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wtf? you mean the damage number indicator isnt enough?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->improve tutorials, make what room they are in more clear<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the screen tells you what room youre in..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->let Marines build power nodes without the Commander telling them first<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow you wouldve HATED ns1. imagine having to ASK for shotguns and other equipment. your entire argument can be summed up as " F the commander! i know what i wanna do! PEW PEW ALIENS!"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->make it clear what exactly is the difference between Normal Damage, Light Damage and Burn Damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can blame this on noobs because glancing bite and attacks were added for THEM. when they spent months upon months crying on the forums.
So these "pub stomps" are just simply "learning grounds", it's not rape.. It's education...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that is how you get better. It's baffling that a handful of people keep arguing that playing against better players <b>doesn't</b> make you better.
What, do you think the better players just started really awful, played really awful players and magically got 80 times better? I, and many other people, played maybe 5 hours of pubs before we started gathering. We immediately sought out higher skill levels and played against them. We'd get stomped, beat up on by the beta players who were so accustomed to the game. We certainly didn't get worse for the experience.
Even before the newest influx of Steam sales rookies, beating up on a pub was a joke. I'm not great at NS2, I'm not an above average gamer, I don't play an inordinate amount of time and I have only played since the day after release. So why do I do so much better than the next average joe who spends an equal time pubbing? I learned more quickly against a stiffer competition.
What, do you think the better players just started really awful, played really awful players and magically got 80 times better? I, and many other people, played maybe 5 hours of pubs before we started gathering. We immediately sought out higher skill levels and played against them. We'd get stomped, beat up on by the beta players who were so accustomed to the game. We certainly didn't get worse for the experience.
Even before the newest influx of Steam sales rookies, beating up on a pub was a joke. I'm not great at NS2, I'm not an above average gamer, I don't play an inordinate amount of time and I have only played since the day after release. So why do I do so much better than the next average joe who spends an equal time pubbing? I learned more quickly against a stiffer competition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And playing against all the new players is having the opposite effect. I started noticing I get really lazy with the dodging after playing a few matches against new players. I then go up against decent players and get rolled. Playing good players is the only way to get better(at least after you learn all of the basics).
yeah then we'd truly have the blind leading the blind
Better tool tips / hints for rookies would be good I guess, maybe a tutorial map sort of a "boot camp" for both marines & aliens to prepare you. But honestly it doesn't take that long to figure out the basics of this game.. the friends the OP is talking about who quit are just suffering from ADD. They don't just quit NS2, they quit every game they aren't instantly good at. Nothing the devs do will keep that type of player around. And to argue the devs should make marines buffed so they are easier to win with , based on some hairbrained idea that noobs only join marines is absurd. Everything about your logic, conclusions, and solutions is completely wrong. Noobs play aliens just as much as they play marines in every game I play in.
There's A LOT of things that can be done in game to help out rookies without affecting balance; Improve Feedback for both doing damage and taking damage, improve tutorials, make what room they are in more clear, let Marines build power nodes without the Commander telling them first, make it clear what exactly is the difference between Normal Damage, Light Damage and Burn Damage. Should we just not do this because "THOSE DAMNED PUBBIES GOTTA LEARN!!!!"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are resources available to all who seek it. NS2 is very different from the original and it even took me a few days to get down the changes, yet I am successful now in 90% of my games. This isn't because I played the previous NS game for many years, mastered it, and that somehow provided a keyhole into being good at NS2. It's because I asked questions, read the forums, read tutorials and what was new and hopped in, took my early losses, and moved on. If you're this angry about losing, do something about it other than ask for handouts. The abomination of glancing hits, and damage types is the product of the very whining you are doing.
That makes no sense. Then you have only noobs, noobing it up, not knowing better. Then they lose rookie status, go on a regular server and get reamed. Then they will come back here and make idiotic posts about how onos should have 100hp and marines need 250 round clips.
Now on to the rookie subject; I think more hints could be a good thing for rookies, and don't forget there are like a dozen of tutorials already there in the main menu. I quite like the boot camp map, that could be available in the Explore mode and teach the basics in depth for each race. I actually quite like the scramble idea someone mentioned earlier, forcing everyone on rookie servers to go random, let's say two normal rounds and one scrambled. I remember a couple of NS1 servers had a similar system to prevent team stacking back in the day and it worked pretty well.
QFT.
Holy ###### actually read what you are replying too for once, I'm asking to make it noob friendly for the sake of actually keeping people in this game, I didn't say anything about me being a struggling rookie. I've got 50 hours into NS2 which yeah, I know is a drop in the bucket for most people on these forums but it's also waaaaaay more then what 90% of the playerbase is gonna put into this game before walking away.
Of course they'll whine at me now for pointing this out, further supporting my position, but sadly this won't help the game or the community.
So these "pub stomps" are just simply "learning grounds", it's not rape.. It's education...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that is how you get better. It's baffling that a handful of people keep arguing that playing against better players <b>doesn't</b> make you better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh com'on, you know full well that there is a magnitude of difference between a 'challenge' and a pub stomp. The only thing the latter 'teaches' anyone is what it looks like to sit in the spawn queue.
I like a good challenge. It's why I played competitively for many years. However I also know that there comes a point when a person's skill is too far above for the match to be anything but a smack-down. It's not an education and it's certainly not fun. People subject to that often leave the game and never come back, and we can be sure they will tell their friends what they think of it too.
People don't hate rookies, people hate green a-holes who come onto a server with a "I'm an FPS god and I do what ever the F I want" attitude. A rookie is a rookie, watch some tutorials, listen to your comm, ask for tips, know your place!
Of course they'll whine at me now for pointing this out, further supporting my position, but sadly this won't help the game or the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resorting to ad hominem does not make your case any stronger. You can bash on the topic and disagree all you like, but the fact that "the usual suspects" disagree with you, this flimsy premise, and and the OP, does not make him any less wrong
I support any changes to make noobs feel welcome, but not to the game. The game should never change or be balanced because someone is new to it. As a playtester you'd think you'd realize that. I participated in many playtests back in THE DAY when the veteran program existed and before NS Combat and during it's release, and I don't remember Charlie ever being okay with that approach. Change the tutoring, change the learning, hell change the way people can learn, but don't balance the game around new people being new.
I support any changes to make noobs feel welcome, but not to the game. The game should never change or be balanced because someone is new to it. As a playtester you'd think you'd realize that. I participated in many playtests back in THE DAY when the veteran program existed and before NS Combat and during it's release, and I don't remember Charlie ever being okay with that approach. Change the tutoring, change the learning, hell change the way people can learn, but don't balance the game around new people being new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well as a close-minded veteran you're certainly never going to change your mind.
However just because you're a loud-mouthed veteran doesn't make you correct. The healthiest thing for the game is for -- at a minimum -- balance to exist at a rookie level. The game should additionally have skill depth to remain interesting long-term, but if rookies play the game and walk away in the first 10 minutes (or first few days, if they last that long) then the game won't ever enjoy the success it deserves.
Again, you're not going to change your mind but if the devs listened to you they'd be making a mistake. 99% of the playerbase hasn't invested the 315+ hours into the game I have, and if they aren't having fun then they aren't word-of-mouthing to get their friends to play. The game needs to be fun for the majority of players who play it.
oh so that's why all the basketball rings outside NBA are 7 foot high instead of 10...
/rolleyes
I support any changes to make noobs feel welcome, but not to the game. The game should never change or be balanced because someone is new to it. As a playtester you'd think you'd realize that. I participated in many playtests back in THE DAY when the veteran program existed and before NS Combat and during it's release, and I don't remember Charlie ever being okay with that approach. Change the tutoring, change the learning, hell change the way people can learn, but don't balance the game around new people being new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This right here. 1000x
However, I've been playing Savage XR competitively for over 7 years, so we can say I'm not new to RTS/FPS hybrid games.
But here's NS2 newbie/first impression opinion:
1. Why do you use the term "Rookie"? Never heard of it. In the context it becomes clear that it means newbie/beginner though.
2. The performance was really disappointing. In Savage XR I get 400-600 FPS in a 60 player battle (which is even an OpenGL game, NS2 is directX based, i.e. should give higher performance), here I don't even get the minimum requirement of 120 FPS in a 4 on 4 game. How about a Quake style "poor" texture quality option? I mean, why not? NS2 has no foliage (trees, bushes, grass etc), all objects are polygonal. There would be no unfair advantage resulting from lower texture quality unlike in outdoor games.
3. Demo record was not in the game option. Why is that? And if you record them via console I get like 80 MB for a 20 minutes match. 80 MB, seriously? Game servers in this game run on like 40 FPS max I guess, teams are small and you barely see anyone as there's so much stealth (= enough data that doesn't have to be recorded), a 20 minute match shouldn't exceed 5 MB. Furthermore if you replay the demo and record with FRAPS it messes up the timescale (everything warps and slows down).
Keep in mind that people uploading NS2 footage to youtube is free advertising that has a big impact on the playerbase these days. If fixing performance issues is a too big deal, highlight the demo record function and make an easy accessible demo to video exporter, so people can share their experiences about this game.
4. Why can't commanders paint on the minimap or at least place symbols that represent certain tasks? like here: <a href="http://youtu.be/ceKJ-btTPb4?t=9s" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/ceKJ-btTPb4?t=9s</a>
Team communication can be so confusing und unclear, especially if you don't know the map well. When the commander says in VOIP: "go to xyz" I have to open the minimap and search that place, but why can't he just draw a circle around it, or even paint the path we should take to go there? He could even use different colors for different squads. Also enemy structure not staying visible on the minimap (maybe a bit faded out) once it's been discovered, contributes to that confusion.
5. NS2 early game is fantastic, both as alien and marine. But as soon as these higher tier aliens are available that you usually can't deal with alone, it becomes frustrating as the marine teamwork usually isn't good enough (Pub problem). The gameplay becomes too much choked and force vs force only. While in early game the stealth aspects are really fun, in late game the lack of a real combat system is really boring IMO. In Savage XR late game for instance we have the combat mechanics that keep the gameplay interesting <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pQxiAmgstM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pQxiAmgstM</a> How about adding strafe jumping in NS2? I guess that could be a little refreshing... people these days hate bunny hopping though - they are too concerned about how "realistic" a game looks. So I don't know :p
6. I haven't tried the commander mode yet, but I noticed that there's only little interaction. The commander does his part, the team does their part. How about the commander buffing field players or giving them weapons?
NS2 requires quite a bit of twitch shooting, but that's not the problem IMO. The only thing I would consider newbie unfriendly in NS2 is the dependence on team resources and tech. You're really f.ucked if the other team is in control. For someone not used to fight for a higher goal (destroying the base) it is really frustrating to fail that hard in 1 on 1 situations. It's pretty much like Quake duels: if you're out of control you're fuc.ked pretty much no matter how good your aim is. This major strategy dependence in skill based action gameplay is definitely not everyones thing.
These are my initial thoughts about NS2 after playing it for maybe 4 hours.
First off, any person who spouts off "L2P" (learn to play) as a solution to the problem in this game, seriously needs to be squelched or ignored. There is a very obvious problem with new player intro to this game, and pretending like we're initiating people into some special fraternity that only "smart people" are allowed to play is what actually buried ns1. This game has complexities to it that need to be taught properly, and pretending like "things will just work themselves out" is the wrong approach. A lot of players would be willing to put the time into the game if it was properly taught to them.
The devs seriously need to spectate rookie only servers when they do these steam sales, and actually watch the chaos that occurs. I go in only to command because I know how incredibly bad it becomes. People have no idea what to do. They don't want to watch some series of videos on how to play, they want to enter a game and expect it to help them figure things out. Currently the game fails in that respect - horribly. Also, there is a very weak point and almost a breaking point to this game. The comm - for both sides. Most people who are new to an RTS will play the single player version of it for 10s of hours before attempting multiplayer. In ns2 situation there is no intro to it and there are times when there is no one to command because no one knows how to, and thrown into the position it takes someone who does do it forever to figure all the small aspects of the game.
What is the solution? I'm not quite sure, but there needs to be a proper commander / bot combo that needs to be released so people can command with bots and figure out how to do it properly, so when they go in as rookie and command at least in some small aspect. Even if the bot game is bad in itself, allow them to just experiment more than what's there now.
Experience like LOL or just general tracking of stats. Only let people play against people who are similar. It needs to be added. Stop pretending like people are being fair about who they play with, because it does not happen. There are so many times I joined a rookie server in order to help people only to notice 3 obvious stompers who I have to play hard against just to even the game out. The problem is I end up pounding on newbies in order to get to the stompers, and become one myself. Pub stomping serious ######ed ns1 and it's causing problems in ns2. Some sort of real thought needs to be put into allowing people to play against similar levels of players.
OP has a lot of valid points about new players to the game, and people really have to stop pretending like they just need time to learn. That is not how popular games work. Popular games continue to be popular by being easy to learn, and hard to master. In the case of ns2, it's hard to master, and hard to learn. Let's change that.
What I did say is the way in which the people REACTED to his post is abusive - and it was.
Cripes man the post directly below the one I made above said "know your place", which perfectly sums up the elitist attitude that exists amongst some of the people out here. Do you really want me to go back to page one and start pulling out quotes? Would that solve anything?
<b>The point I was making is that you can disagree with someone and be nice about it.</b> Or is that too hard?
The reality is that, imho, there are two things the game needs badly. A proper training module, and two sets of balance. (standard and advanced/competitive) Let all the 'pros' who really don't give a crap about anyone but themselves slug it out on the advanced servers, and then the new players can try to learn a game that has no instructions without getting pub-stomped or otherwise made to feel like crap. Of course I'm sure I'll hear the howls of objection about how this would "split the community" despite the fact that the community is split already. The OP perfectly demonstrated that, as did all the elitist 'learn to play noob' responses.
Bottom line? This game is unfriendly to new players, and this thread is dripping with the same egotistical arrogance they get on the servers as they get pub-stomped by the 'skilled' players who stack teams and laugh their way to an easy win.
To assume that 'pros' don't give a ###### because we disagree with your approaches to balance or handling of new players is just ridiculous.
Bottom line? There is a serious attitude problem among people today such that they have a lack of willingness to figure things out for themselves. This attitude is reinforced by savant and co who want to change the game and community to suit them but not realizing in doing so they make totally unappealing for anyone that has taken initiative.
Your hatred for good players is long past pathetic and frankly I wish you would stop ruining every thread on this forum.
I can guarantee 99% of the competitive players dont play public games to stack teams and spawn camp new players, most play to have fun like everyone else. Do you want comp players to purposefully play poorly? That doesnt do anything to improve the quality of games and the knowledge of all players. It also creates problems as people can recognize comp players and then expect them to play well, then get upset when they are not.
Honestly the most insulting and rude people are the players I run into on public servers that have 0 competitive experience, and talk like they know every single intimate detail about NS2, and anyone who says different is an idiotic baboon.
Its time to stop blaming the problems on the competitive players - you've done this since NS1 and nothing has changed, you look like just as much of a tool now as you did then, except now there isnt an army of idiots that think this way, just a select few that never seem to leave.
As for NS2's learning curve, everyone can agree its difficult to learn - however where its crucially different from NS1 is that its not difficult to master, its actually quite simple. The game needs to be easy on an entry level, but the correct way to approach that is not to make the game even easier - its proper tutorials/tooltips and guides. NS2 also needs much more depth and progression - it really doesnt take long to master 95% of the game, which then leads to the game becoming stale.
I have been trying to get a handful of friends to start playing this game. I had one friend playing last night. We played 9 games as marines. We got absolutely blown out all 9 times. Most of the time the marines could not even hold an RT for more than a few seconds. Now I am not a new player. I know what the marines need to do to win. I have seen them win many times. Overall I'd say the marines win almost half the time. But when <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro--><b>I try to look through the eyes of a new player the way I it was running last night, I would have uninstalled this game in a heartbeat</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Word of mouth is very important to a game like this. I can't build a case to say tihs is a great game to my friends. After last night I am telling them I will let you know when they fix it.
I don't think it needs a major overhaul. It needs changes so that the marines do not get killed in a 1/2 a second in early game. Time and time again all I was seeing is one experienced skulk kill 1, 2, even 3 marines in a matter of a second or two. Now don't start telling me all this and that on how the marines need to aim better, stay together, yada yada yada. I know how to play. But a new player will and is getting killed time and time again as marine. And you multiply this ease of taking down 1 or more marines by one alien into the entire alien team base rushing and you get quite literally the worst gaming experience I have seen in a long long time.
Here are a few simple suggestions that I know are easy to do. Make the marines gun clips larger. Make the reload time shorter. Give him more armor at game start. There are many easy ways to adresss this. And if it throws the balance off a bit then adjust the aliens a bit if needed. But FIX THIS problem. This game is getting uninstalled left and right I am sure of it. And it doesn't deserve it. Its bad timing that Christmas came along with this problem being seen by all of these new players. All the more important to address it soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The very name <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Natural Selection</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 2 should give you a hint.
It's the survival of the fittest, let those who are not fit uninstall the game, they're the ones who have to adapt. Not the game itself.
<!--quoteo(post=2054138:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:22 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 1 2013, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly the most insulting and rude people are the players I run into on public servers that have 0 competitive experience, and talk like they know every single intimate detail about NS2, and anyone who says different is an idiotic baboon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also a big +1 to this.
Bottom line? There is a serious attitude problem among people today such that they have a lack of willingness to figure things out for themselves. This attitude is reinforced by savant and co who want to change the game and community to suit them but not realizing in doing so they make totally unappealing for anyone that has taken initiative.
Your hatred for good players is long past pathetic and frankly I wish you would stop ruining every thread on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is precisely your type of attitude which ruins the vet community reputation post by post. No idea if you are a "vet" or not. Savant never mentioned "good" players and it is funny how yourself proclaim to be one. But Ok, I ll bear with you...
I have no special reason to "hate" "good" players like yourself. I just joined this community and I have learned to enjoy this game despite people like you. I think I can consider myself included among those you see as "taking initiative" and those who eventually can at some point l2p. And yet, I am sure i am probably among a minority within the the pub community.
And without any previous conditioning or "hatred" of any kind, and speaking as a new player I have to agree this game is one of the least noob friendly I ve seen. This issue is then compounded by the fact pub gaming balance is so clearly against the more intuitive and noob friendly marines. And learn to play will never be the answer to either that or balancing in pub. Pub gaming is mostly all of it casual gaming by definition. And casual gamers never l2p the way a hard core vet would like. Ever. Only similarly minded hardcore players will, but not casual pub.
And casual players are the core of NS2 gamers, of any game out there. Don't know if a two tier balancing system is the answer but the casual pub community needs its balance directly addressed in priority to any other community group IMHO. Of course devs will do what they like but ignoring casual gamers (or thinking that l2p will take care of the issue) would be a mistake.