<!--quoteo(post=2054139:date=Jan 1 2013, 02:27 PM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Jan 1 2013, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The very name <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Natural Selection</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 2 should give you a hint. It's the survival of the fittest, let those who are not fit uninstall the game, they're the ones who have to adapt. Not the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, yes. Because this will help a lot in growing the player base or attract new players. I am sure Devs will be delighted to follow your reasoning.
<!--quoteo(post=2054048:date=Jan 1 2013, 09:28 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 1 2013, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh so that's why all the basketball rings outside NBA are 7 foot high instead of 10...
/rolleyes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that's why all basketball rings outside NBA are at 10 feet high on both sides of the court. Not one at 5 foot and the other at 11. If you want to make retarded analogies at least get them right.
The balance between each team is ######ed at lower levels of skill. Its fine if the game is just hard, so long as its equally hard at lower levels of skill for each team. But it isn't.
<!--quoteo(post=2054150:date=Jan 1 2013, 05:48 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Jan 1 2013, 05:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, that's why all basketball rings outside NBA are at 10 feet high on both sides of the court. Not one at 5 foot and the other at 11. If you want to make retarded analogies at least get them right.
The balance between each team is ######ed at lower levels of skill. Its fine if the game is just hard, so long as its equally hard at lower levels of skill for each team. But it isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have exactly the same problem in Savage XR. Not only is the game asymmetrical (i.e. 60-65% Beast wins in low level matches), the learning curves are it too. Which is the worst part. Learning Beast melee takes 2-3 years, learning Human melee takes around 1 year (while mastering Human melee takes just as long as mastering Beasts, but in early stages one race is much more rewarding). Learning human commanding takes around 1-2 years, learning to command Beasts takes only about a half year.
One way dealing with the problem would be changing the circumstances, i.e. adding tutorials, practice modes etc. However, even with tutorials and a personal coach it takes at least 2 years to become really good at Beast melee. Certain aspects of the game just take more practice than others, knowledge alone doesn't make you good.
Another way - the way S2Games decided to choose with Savage 2 - would be removing most of the asymmetries in the game. Which made Savage 2 A LOT more beginner friendly - and more friendly too, due to less flaming and moaning about what requires more skill and what's cheap and why I deserved to frag you because I used the harder to control race/unit in battle etc.
However, I don't think that's really an option in a game like Natural Selection where the ranged vs melee is absolutely definitory for the gameplay. Add tutorials, practice modes - so people will reach the point faster at where balanced matches are more likely to happen.
<!--quoteo(post=2054136:date=Jan 1 2013, 10:10 AM:name=Scatter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scatter @ Jan 1 2013, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A thread isn't complete without Idiot Savant and/or imbalanxd responding with their usual nonsense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, thanks for making my point about how abusive people are in this community. Every insult you post just strengthens my position that much more about the abuse in this community. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To assume that 'pros' don't give a ###### because we disagree with your approaches to balance or handling of new players is just ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That has nothing to do with it. Many "pros" don't give a crap because they can't tolerate these new players - it has nothing to do with me or my positions on balance. The reality is that the new players are an annoyance to them, and they make no bones about saying as such. The thread was dripping with it for many pages before I made my first post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bottom line? There is a serious attitude problem among people today such that they have a lack of willingness to figure things out for themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, wrong. People shouldn't have to 'figure it out for themselves' - that's the problem. We have no training and we expect people to jump into the game and become instant pros? Most of the people who know how to play have been around since NS1, and these new players have never played that mod. They know nothing of NS or how it plays. This game is too complex to toss people in and expect they can figure it out to any significant extent in a reasonable period of time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your hatred for good players is long past pathetic and frankly I wish you would stop ruining every thread on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's people like you, who dish out the constant abuse to others you disagree with, that is ruining this forum. Hot tip for you Sherlock, I am a "good player" and I certainly don't hate myself. I played competitively for almost a decade. Furthermore, there are many 'good players' out there who are helpful to new players.
However for every helpful 'good player' I see, 3 are just plain intolerant and abusive.
In three games yesterday, on separate servers, when the marines started to lose the 'pro' in the command chair just recycled the base and then proceeded to berate the 'newbies' who didn't know how to play well. (and this was on rookie servers) Finally in the third game I jumped in the chair to build some IPs, I told the 'pro' to F4 if he didn't want to play, and then I took the 'newbies' and we rolled two hives. While we still ended up losing in the end, the bottom line was that instead of just prematurely ending the game and insulting the new players, I actually took time to try and teach these people some ways to come back from what seems a lost cause. They actually had FUN despite the loss. This concept seems lost to some people in here.
Like I said, I can go through this thread and pull up quote after quote of people insulting new players... Like... <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The very name Natural Selection 2 should give you a hint. It's the survival of the fittest, let those who are not fit uninstall the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you accuse me of 'hate'? The only thing I 'hate' is the elitist and egotistical attitude of some players who think they are God's gift to gaming and that new players should STFU & L2P or GTFO. Sorry, but anytime I see that I will be calling it out. If anyone doesn't like it then that's too damn bad. I make no apologies for my defence of the 'average Joe', since they are the ones who are sustaining this game.
I'm not sure what's more insulting in the end to be frank. We have a playtester with a bias against anyone who played competitively, some random person that thinks that being told to learn to play t he game is bad advice, and we also have imba trolling the thread as well.
I'm not sure which bothers me most, that people like this think they have a valid position, or the fact that competitive players are looked down upon.
I have done my fair share of trolling, being mean to newbs and pubbers, but I have also done lightyears more to help newbs and "rookies" than these people will ever hope to dream to do.
I spent SIX HOURS this week alone coaching new players and encouraging them. I have spent the same amount of time last week talking to a few people who said to me after a round "people like you ruin the game and make it too hard"
I took things into my own hands, friend-ed them, and explained to them why they lost, that all players aren't bad or mean, and that the game is very rewarding if they continue to try and learn.
Now multiply that times a thousand and that's what I did from 2003 until 2007 when I finally retired from NS1. Don't you dare try and make me seem like the bad guy for calling out a bad argument on game balance. You're clueless as to what some of us "nasty vets" actually have done to foster a successful game. Not all of us are the elitist jerks you make us out to be, and remember, we ALL started out newb. It's a thankless and tiresome task, you know, actually trying to foster a community within this game. People read my forum posts and scream troll, when, sure, half the time on the off-topic board it was, but here it isn't.
TL;DR:
I have done more personally to help coach and foster a community of willing to try/learn players than you could ever fantasize about. So don't get a rageboner at me because I was a veteran player.
OP, You said you were playing with a handful of friends. It'd say it's a great learning experience to just gather them all on mumble or teamspeak and give them tips on stuff. Tell them that their k/d isn't that important compared to teamwork. complement them when you succesfully destroy a hive or held off an attack. A really great way to let them learn the game is by going commander yourself. (even if you aren't great at commanding.) They'll learn to understand what the purpose of the commander is and what their role is as marine. I found out that they learn the game faster that way than when i'm there with them on the ground. You can just give up and tell them it's the game's fault, but in order to lure your friends into enjoying the game, you got to be the guiding veteran. Throw them the rope to advance and become a veteran like yourself. Also let them play aliens a few times, they might enjoy that even more than marines and that way they learn both sides of the game, understanding the game more.
But I can understand that the game will be harder for rookies that doesn't know anyone playing NS2 yet. I disagree with that there should be "big" changes to the game just to help them, it will only unbalance the game even more. I think the best way we can help them right now is by just giving them tips and hope that they are willing to learn.
<!--quoteo(post=2054180:date=Jan 1 2013, 04:36 PM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 1 2013, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I took things into my own hands, friend-ed them, and explained to them why they lost, that all players aren't bad or mean, and that the game is very rewarding if they continue to try and learn.
Now multiply that times a thousand and that's what I did from 2003 until 2007 when I finally retired from NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I am sure all that was most welcome by new players so kuddos to you. But the main point here is surely that all that incredibly intensive work (ref " multiply by 10k... Between 2003 and 2007 etc) shouldn't be necessary in the first place.
Vets helping out now and then is normal. But come on... The level of support you guys would need to dish out for your average casual noob for this game is just staggering (which leads to frustration, raging, and players becoming upset unnecessarily... Both vets and noobs alike). Surely there are a few things Devs can do to improve that experience (GUI tweaks, maybe a tutorial map etc and possibly including balance changes that get us closer to 50/50 in pub) without you needing to be constantly doing us a favour.
NS2 requires skills not easily teachable; communication, coordination, teamwork, and sound strategy. Almost all other games do not require these to the level that NS2 does. It is a learn to play problem, but it's things not easily teachable outside of listening to others or reading what others have written.
I have been trying to give NS2 some more chances, and I feel the biggest thing against new players is just learning the map. We[new players] are distracted by so many things, and it would help if there was something to depend on besides pulling up the on screen map.
As aliens, I miss the hive sight indicators[from NS1] showing where my team is in trouble- by players or structures getting damaged.
As marines, I could count on an attentive commander to give way points to some place- if not a way point, I had to rely on map memory.
If any solution is considered, I'd hope it is something seamless and intuitive like the old hive sight.
<!--quoteo(post=2054180:date=Jan 1 2013, 12:36 PM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 1 2013, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure what's more insulting in the end to be frank. We have a playtester with a bias against anyone who played competitively<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, you don't. I played competitively for almost a decade, but then again you ignored that since it doesn't fit into your pretty picture. I was a competitive player. I have no bias against competitive players, I have a bias against a-holes. You don't have to be a competitive player to be an a-hole.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->some random person that thinks that being told to learn to play the game is bad advice<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It *IS* bad advice. Not only is it bad advice it's just plain ignorant. Telling a person to "learn to play" doesn't do a single thing to help them. It's like seeing a person on the street who trips and falls down and your response is "learn to walk". Yeah, you're not helping anyone by telling them to "learn to play" - especially in a game with no training module of any kind.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or the fact that competitive players are looked down upon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Competitive players are the ones in charge of their own 'rep'. You reap what you sow.
I don't know what it is, but back in the 'old days', competitive gamers seemed to have more 'honor' - if that makes any sense. Yeah we were all fiercely competitive, but we left that on the map in the game. Outside the game we tried to set an example of being good sportsmen, and if anyone ever complained about a league member being an asshat, he was suspended or kicked from the league, depending on what he did.
Add this together with some 'competitive players' (although some are just 'experienced' players) who will openly insult new players who make honest mistakes, and it really doesn't leave me with a lot of respect for them. I've seen many a player who was 'told off' just up and leave. What does that say about the community in the game? Maybe I should start making videos of this. While I don't like or want to 'name and shame', I wonder how many videos of people with 'tags' being abusive it would take before you admit there is a problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have done my fair share of trolling, being mean to newbs and pubbers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You bemoan "competitive players are looked down upon" and yet you openly admit you engage in that behaviour?! Yet you have the gall to suggest that criticism of this kind of behaviour is unwarranted? Wow, I'm not easily surprised, but this surprised me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I spent SIX HOURS this week alone coaching new players and encouraging them. I have spent the same amount of time last week talking to a few people who said to me after a round "people like you ruin the game and make it too hard"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As for your former point, that's great, but the "trolling, being mean to newbs" you do as well just cancels that all out. The second remark you made about the people saying "you ruin the game" is exactly what the OP is saying, and yet you suggest that his point isn't one shared by others. Yet you've heard it and so have I. I'm sure you've also seen it as well.
Getting rolled isn't fun. Getting rolled isn't educational. Sitting in the spawn queue will teach a person NOTHING about the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2053735:date=Dec 31 2012, 11:26 AM:name=Zaggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zaggy @ Dec 31 2012, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that learning curve is very steep for NS2. A training/tutorial map would be a great idea to get the greens to learn the game without getting stomped by regulars. That or a friendly pub where you can practice with fellow greens. Some sort of ranking system would be a great help, where you join only servers with people with the same amount of playtime and kill/death ratio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The learning curve for all of NS may be a bit of an incline, but I disagree that it is steep. What is steep is the inability for the average joe to think he can just run in guns ablazing/teeth a chomping and to come out even remotely successful. The people that succeed quickly in NS are those that can get out of that mindset.
With that said no amount of tutorials are going to fix that, at least in regards to this level 0 marine versus skulk cry for help.. er debate. The player has to be willing to change their approach to the FPS aspect, and most people don't. They come on forums and complain.
<!--quoteo(post=2054186:date=Jan 1 2013, 11:11 AM:name=Jer9-Carver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer9-Carver @ Jan 1 2013, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP, You said you were playing with a handful of friends. It'd say it's a great learning experience to just gather them all on mumble or teamspeak and give them tips on stuff. Tell them that their k/d isn't that important compared to teamwork. complement them when you succesfully destroy a hive or held off an attack. A really great way to let them learn the game is by going commander yourself. (even if you aren't great at commanding.) They'll learn to understand what the purpose of the commander is and what their role is as marine. I found out that they learn the game faster that way than when i'm there with them on the ground. You can just give up and tell them it's the game's fault, but in order to lure your friends into enjoying the game, you got to be the guiding veteran. Throw them the rope to advance and become a veteran like yourself. Also let them play aliens a few times, they might enjoy that even more than marines and that way they learn both sides of the game, understanding the game more.
But I can understand that the game will be harder for rookies that doesn't know anyone playing NS2 yet. I disagree with that there should be "big" changes to the game just to help them, it will only unbalance the game even more. I think the best way we can help them right now is by just giving them tips and hope that they are willing to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played with one friend. We bought the game for 2 more. My plan was to get the one friend into it and we both would get the other 2 and maybe more if we could. We even bought the game for them as Christmas presents.
During the 9 game blowout fest that night I did try to give him pointers. We were using Skype so we heard game talk and could talk to just each other. Almost every game was a brutal loss. I went from server to server, some rookie some not, looking for a better game to help him to see why I love the game so much. I was incapable of finding one.
A few posts in this thread talk about how the alien team can lose in 2 minutes like the marine one. I have logged over 80 hours into this game and not once have I seen that. Yet I have sene the opposite countless number of times. Also I have yet to read anyone arguing against the 66% win ratio of alien to marine. In games I have played I don't think it is that high but the stats are the stats if they are asccurate. And if they are, the game needs balance changes, PERIOD, END OF STORY. Let's all hope if they do make changes (which I bet they will), that they will be good ones.
Please close this thread. I have said all I can, getting blasted from here to Mars in most responses. I throw in the towel. I will be thinking twice about posting again in the future.
<!--quoteo(post=2054209:date=Jan 1 2013, 11:00 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 1 2013, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, you don't. I played competitively for almost a decade, but then again you ignored that since it doesn't fit into your pretty picture. I was a competitive player. I have no bias against competitive players, I have a bias against a-holes. You don't have to be a competitive player to be an a-hole.
It *IS* bad advice. Not only is it bad advice it's just plain ignorant. Telling a person to "learn to play" doesn't do a single thing to help them. It's like seeing a person on the street who trips and falls down and your response is "learn to walk". Yeah, you're not helping anyone by telling them to "learn to play" - especially in a game with no training module of any kind.
Competitive players are the ones in charge of their own 'rep'. You reap what you sow.
I don't know what it is, but back in the 'old days', competitive gamers seemed to have more 'honor' - if that makes any sense. Yeah we were all fiercely competitive, but we left that on the map in the game. Outside the game we tried to set an example of being good sportsmen, and if anyone ever complained about a league member being an asshat, he was suspended or kicked from the league, depending on what he did.
Add this together with some 'competitive players' (although some are just 'experienced' players) who will openly insult new players who make honest mistakes, and it really doesn't leave me with a lot of respect for them. I've seen many a player who was 'told off' just up and leave. What does that say about the community in the game? Maybe I should start making videos of this. While I don't like or want to 'name and shame', I wonder how many videos of people with 'tags' being abusive it would take before you admit there is a problem.
You bemoan "competitive players are looked down upon" and yet you openly admit you engage in that behaviour?! Yet you have the gall to suggest that criticism of this kind of behaviour is unwarranted? Wow, I'm not easily surprised, but this surprised me.
As for your former point, that's great, but the "trolling, being mean to newbs" you do as well just cancels that all out. The second remark you made about the people saying "you ruin the game" is exactly what the OP is saying, and yet you suggest that his point isn't one shared by others. Yet you've heard it and so have I. I'm sure you've also seen it as well.
Getting rolled isn't fun. Getting rolled isn't educational. Sitting in the spawn queue will teach a person NOTHING about the game.
The sooner people learn that the better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2054236:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A few posts in this thread talk about how the alien team can lose in 2 minutes like the marine one. I have logged over 80 hours into this game and not once have I seen that. Yet I have sene the opposite countless number of times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most of the time in a pub game, khaara would be egglocked after a failed rush. Marines can easily do a counterush and end the game if organized, or at least delay alien expansion substantially even if the counterush fails.
<!--quoteo(post=2054236:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I have yet to read anyone arguing against the 66% win ratio of alien to marine. In games I have played I don't think it is that high but the stats are the stats if they are asccurate. And if they are, the game needs balance changes, PERIOD, END OF STORY. Let's all hope if they do make changes (which I bet they will), that they will be good ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think most people disagree that there is a slight advantage to the advantage overall at the moment. However, that is not relevant to the title of the thread or to your original post. Which brings us to the next part of the post
<!--quoteo(post=2054236:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please close this thread. I have said all I can, getting blasted from here to Mars in most responses. I throw in the towel. I will be thinking twice about posting again in the future.
Thank you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Most of the things you said has been addressed. People who agree will agree and people who see things differently will continue seeing things differently. I am not sure why you are "throwing in the towel" since it seems a number of people (most, I would even say) agree with you in that this game is unfriendly for new players. The issue then seems like somewhere down the line you took the stance, "This game is extremely unfriendly for marines" over the original title.
<!--quoteo(post=2054139:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:27 PM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Jan 1 2013, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The very name <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Natural Selection</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 2 should give you a hint. It's the survival of the fittest, let those who are not fit uninstall the game, they're the ones who have to adapt. Not the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get it. So if something is poorly explained this isn't the programms fault but the players are to blame? What kind of attitude is that supposed to be. That's like having a terrible teacher who cannot even explain the most easiest things and keeps blaming his students for his own incapability to explain himself. I mean, of course the new players have to learn learn to play NS2 and noone would disagree here. The question is just what does the game do in order to help the newbies doing so and in fact it is part of the job of the dev's to include mechanisms that help new players to grasp what's going on.
Yelling "L2P" should not be used as an excuse for the lack of in-game explanations and advices. If that would be true, IKEA could simply save the paper for their manuals and tell their customers that they shouldn't be such pansies and figure out how to put a cupboard together without any instructions. And those who like games like Rome oder Shogun, heck, real experts don't need any sort of explanations, tutorials and whatsoever, just take a few weeks off from work and learn this game like you would learn for an exam. That sounds like real fun!
Seriously! The players are customers who brought a product they want to have fun with. If the first experience they have is mixture of confusion, frustration and "<i>What the hell is going on here?</i>" then that isn't a very good first impression to start with. A good game - and NS2 is a very good game indeed! - should explain itself while you play it, it should take your hand in order to explain things you would probably not know, and speaking of NS2, that's quite a lot. Still, NS2 doesn't do that - there are no in-game explanations and hardly any tool-tips whatsoever. You cannot expect customers, who had a rather bad time with this game so far, to take their time to read wikis, watch youtube-videos or ask other players. That has nothing to do with dumping down the game - adding tool-tips that explain, for example what an Armslab is for, hardly dumps down the game but might be a big help for new players.
<!--quoteo(post=2054306:date=Jan 1 2013, 05:16 PM:name=Terranigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terranigma @ Jan 1 2013, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get it. So if something is poorly explained this isn't the programms fault but the players are to blame? What kind of attitude is that supposed to be. That's like having a terrible teacher who cannot even explain the most easiest things and keeps blaming his students for his own incapability to explain himself. I mean, of course the new players have to learn learn to play NS2 and noone would disagree here. The question is just what does the game do in order to help the newbies doing so and in fact it is part of the job of the dev's to include mechanisms that help new players to grasp what's going on.
Yelling "L2P" should not be used as an excuse for the lack of in-game explanations and advices. If that would be true, IKEA could simply save the paper for their manuals and tell their customers that they shouldn't be such pansies and figure out how to put a cupboard together without any instructions. And those who like games like Rome oder Shogun, heck, real experts don't need any sort of explanations, tutorials and whatsoever, just take a few weeks off from work and learn this game like you would learn for an exam. That sounds like real fun!
Seriously! The players are customers who brought a product they want to have fun with. If the first experience they have is mixture of confusion, frustration and "<i>What the hell is going on here?</i>" then that isn't a very good first impression to start with. A good game - and NS2 is a very good game indeed! - should explain itself while you play it, it should take your hand in order to explain things you would probably not know, and speaking of NS2, that's quite a lot. Still, NS2 doesn't do that - there are no in-game explanations and hardly any tool-tips whatsoever. You cannot expect customers, who had a rather bad time with this game so far, to take their time to read wikis, watch youtube-videos or ask other players. That has nothing to do with dumping down the game - adding tool-tips that explain, for example what an Armslab is for, hardly dumps down the game but might be a big help for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, the tutorial of any game is a crucial element, and in NS2's case it's a bit underwhelming.
The OP however was suggesting we buff the marines because new players are dying too often, which is kind of silly reasoning.
As a new NS2 player (I didn't play the first one, mind you), I think this thread is perfect a perfect place to post some of my thoughts.
The main problem that I found was that playing Kharaa requires different tactics - and has a completely different control scheme and even the UI. It lacks any familiarity. Now, on it's own, it's not a bad thing, but new players WILL happily go play as rifle-wielding soldiers, as it's more familiar, and without any help will have a hard time playing as the aliens. This in turns means that if they DO play as aliens (because there's no spot left on the human side) they'll quickly get frustrated.
Now, before anyone reaches any conclusions - I only got frustrated when playing as Kharaa when one of two things happened: a) the hive is being attacked my a massive assault force, and there's almost nothing I can do as a Skulk but charge head-first into rifle fire b) when being ordered to assault an entrenched human position - again, nothing left but to run head-first into rifle-fire... unless you have resources for something other than a Skulk
Other than the above, there are some design issues which feel really alienating (no pun intended) for new players. Why don't aliens get a mini-map? Maps are confusing as it is, with the air ducts offering extra paths. Playing as Kharaa one needs to know the map by heart as it is - which really does not help new players at all.
Secondly, I STLL can't adjust to the Skulk wall-climbing mechanism. I've played a bit of Aliens vs Predator, and an alien in that game was always "level" with the surface it was on. In NS2, Skulks are always level with the ground, which means that, for example, if I'm running down a corridor, and want to get onto the ceiling, I need to LOOK at it - I cannot strafe my way there. It also means that actually sticking to said ceiling is a problem which is further compounded by the fact that ceilings in NS2 have a lot of bumps. And since I'm on the subject of AvP... why even bother with the standard Kharaa view as opposed to the "heat" view? In AvP aliens naturally saw outlines of their enemies in view, which meant that BOTH views available in that game were viable. In NS2 this doesn't seem to be the case. The inability to see the flashlight of incoming marines isn't much of a problem, given how loud they are (unless there's another upside to the default view I'm yet to grasp).
Right, so... the main problem is that Kharaa is really, really poorly explained. The required playstyle of the default unit really lacks in familiarity for regular FPS gamers, and means that it's hard to get a grip on things. How should that be changed? Well, I'd start with a minimap, a "level with surface" view (or at least option) and outlines in default view, but I fear more would be needed to make this side more accessible to new players.
Build a forum in game with some side options to join that player or that group. It would help tremendously I'm sure. Otherwise only a few players in a team that know each others are 100% sure to completely rape the other one made of new or decent players but are not use to each others. And you know what? Teaching to new players a game like this is not fun at all while your getting raped. Period. The next time I enter a game and see only one side chose either aliens or marines I won't waste my goddamn time and quit.
For the rest I've been surprise at the players who are in general quite funny to play with. I'm sure the answer would be much positive and that even experienced players would be quite open to team up and teach to new ones.
<!--quoteo(post=2054315:date=Jan 2 2013, 08:41 AM:name=Shaamaan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaamaan @ Jan 2 2013, 08:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why don't aliens get a mini-map? Maps are confusing as it is, with the air ducts offering extra paths. Playing as Kharaa one needs to know the map by heart as it is - which really does not help new players at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see this one alot - you can press C for minimap. Likewise for marines. The most important newbie hint that UWE has failed to implement over many years.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) the hive is being attacked my a massive assault force, and there's almost nothing I can do as a Skulk but charge head-first into rifle fire b) when being ordered to assault an entrenched human position - again, nothing left but to run head-first into rifle-fire... unless you have resources for something other than a Skulk<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This one is partly a L2P, and partly the fault of a lacking tutorial introducing new players to skulk movement philosophy. a) Why more teamwork on aliens is required contrary to popular belief. You either attack as a group, or use your mobility to 'hit and run' to stall for time. Your hive can tank damage somewhat, so you don't need to always just run into rifle fire by yourself. b) See a). Turtles are rooted in more than just L2P though. Tweaks to spawn rates and turtle power are being looked at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, I STLL can't adjust to the Skulk wall-climbing mechanism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> AVP wall walking is disorientating for alot of people and does not mechanically work with walljumping / skulk movement. Imagine the world rotating every time you want to get a speed boost! Not to mention accidentally walking up walls when you don't want to. Unfortunately this is just something you need to get used to, although i'm sure someone will end up making an AVP style wallwalking mod.
<!--quoteo(post=2054329:date=Jan 1 2013, 03:00 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 1 2013, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see this one alot - you can press C for minimap. Likewise for marines. The most important newbie hint that UWE has failed to implement over many years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When writing my post I knew full well of C, but I wrote about a MINI-map, not a full map. Opening a full-screen map with C doesn't compare to a small minimap showing your position at all times in the corner, which helps navigating a lot.
I have to agree with all the posts about new player mindset.
Most modern FPS titles build the player up to be this amazing warrior, with the AI constantly commanding you to "get on the turret," "take out that position," and doing other things that essentially build up the "one man army" mentality. You can see it with new players, they get in and want to join the frontiersmen side, only to run off on their own to their death. You really have to approach the FPS side of the game like Starship troopers: In the movie during the invasion of the bug planet you see an eager platoon of infantry encounter their first bug. It takes all of them focusing on that one bug just to bring it down, then the rest of the bug army shows up. When questioned with what they should do, Rico responds "KILL THEM, KILL THEM ALL" and they all push forward in one big block firing as a single unit. I think a lot of new players don't get this, and their mentality is further reinforced when they see vets getting some ridiculous K/D ratios.
The RTS side is a bit more complex: sure it plays like a traditional RTS with all the standard learning that that genre requires, but then you exacerbate the newbie command mistakes by having to "control" units that actually have their own mind. In movies you see a disjoint between new officers and their men, this is exaggerated quite a bit if you're a new NS2 commander with even one or two vets under your command. Beyond that you'll have people with incomplete information telling you what you should be doing as commander. Effectively people start pulling command decisions away from their commander.
On the hybrid side, I think a lot of newbies don't use their maps that often so they never have a good understanding of the team situation or their own. The same goes for communication, mics are really helpful to update your buddies in real time. I've watched other new people run single file to their deaths because they didn't communicate with each other or look at their map.
It really comes down to dispelling the mindset that modern RTS and FPS have instilled into most new players. Unfortunately there aren't many ways to do this short of player experience.
You never spent time with it? Why not? You got creamed and had no idea what happened? Well, maybe you should KEEP PLAYING the game you've never heard of before for 30 hours to get PRACTICE, so you won't whine about it and will start to have FUN.
Wait, we were talking about Natural Selection 2? I was talking about <i>Marine Tactical Command 5</i>; an RTS from 2001 that only has one player on its leaderboards - me. I'm at the top, by the way. Maybe people would play that game if they would stop assuming it'd be like EVERY other game ever made where you don't have to THINK, and you could WIN just by working as a TEAM. MTC5's strategy is entirely decided by your hotkey placement. Anyone who didn't realize that and can't learn to issue a command on the other side of the minimap at a moment's notice, then starts whining about it, probably shouldn't have even bothered picking it up.
(Yes, this post is a joke. It's meant to say; "Look at yourself, <i>pro</i>. You're an idiot.")
ho and I forgot and probably the most important related to this post: having a handful of peoples managing to get scores of 95 kills for 6 deaths kinda really, really kill the fun of everyone else.
I'll let you guess which item is responsible for this. Some peoples either have auto aim or their sleep with their mouses up their asses.
<!--quoteo(post=2054365:date=Jan 1 2013, 06:29 PM:name=Mad selection)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mad selection @ Jan 1 2013, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or their sleep with their mouses up their asses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2054365:date=Jan 1 2013, 11:29 PM:name=Mad selection)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mad selection @ Jan 1 2013, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll let you guess which item is responsible for this. Some peoples either have auto aim or their sleep with their mouses up their asses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you mad bro... I think you might be bad at the game because you think sleeping with a mouse up your arse makes you better at it. Pretty sure Locklears L2PNS2 never covered inserting parts of your PC up your colon...
L2P bro... Wait no...
L2L2P... Learn to Learn to Play yo?... Ya get me bruv!?!??! Yeah you get me... I sees it in yo eyes bruv...
<!--quoteo(post=2054331:date=Jan 1 2013, 05:05 PM:name=Tova)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tova @ Jan 1 2013, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to agree with all the posts about new player mindset.
Most modern FPS titles build the player up to be this amazing warrior, with the AI constantly commanding you to "get on the turret," "take out that position," and doing other things that essentially build up the "one man army" mentality. You can see it with new players, they get in and want to join the frontiersmen side, only to run off on their own to their death. You really have to approach the FPS side of the game like Starship troopers: In the movie during the invasion of the bug planet you see an eager platoon of infantry encounter their first bug. It takes all of them focusing on that one bug just to bring it down, then the rest of the bug army shows up. When questioned with what they should do, Rico responds "KILL THEM, KILL THEM ALL" and they all push forward in one big block firing as a single unit. I think a lot of new players don't get this, and their mentality is further reinforced when they see vets getting some ridiculous K/D ratios.
The RTS side is a bit more complex: sure it plays like a traditional RTS with all the standard learning that that genre requires, but then you exacerbate the newbie command mistakes by having to "control" units that actually have their own mind. In movies you see a disjoint between new officers and their men, this is exaggerated quite a bit if you're a new NS2 commander with even one or two vets under your command. Beyond that you'll have people with incomplete information telling you what you should be doing as commander. Effectively people start pulling command decisions away from their commander.
On the hybrid side, I think a lot of newbies don't use their maps that often so they never have a good understanding of the team situation or their own. The same goes for communication, mics are really helpful to update your buddies in real time. I've watched other new people run single file to their deaths because they didn't communicate with each other or look at their map.
It really comes down to dispelling the mindset that modern RTS and FPS have instilled into most new players. Unfortunately there aren't many ways to do this short of player experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there is a lot of truth in this post.
I do think that experienced players could do more to helping the newbies. The problem is, when I sit down to play, especially lately, my play time is limited. I don't want to spend the next 2 hours teaching people how to play. Is this a failing of the game? Probably, there should be a better tutorial. That said, newbies need to not be n00bs. Newbies want to learn; n00bs are belligerent in their lack of knowledge and feel that since they plopped some scratch down for a game, they don't have to take the time to learn anything. It's "my game, I paid for it, I'll play how I want". This is the mantra of the n00b. n00bs ruin it for newbies. Now, even with the lack of tutorial, people have learned how to play, so the game is not some insurmountable mountain.
It boils down to a certain level of maturity. And by maturity I mean knowing that:
Those other marines and aliens moving around the screen, and those other voices you hear? Those are real people, not bots. Treat them how you want to be treated.
This game relies on those other people working together.
Listen to the commander and do what they say.
Sometimes you will lose, be a good sport about it.
Sometimes you will win, be a good sport about it.
"In game" is not the best place to learn the most basic stuff.
If someone asks a simple question in game, and you know the answer, give them a quick answer. If you don't want to answer, don't. Just don't berate them for asking.
If everyone followed these rules, we would be much better off.
Games used to have a feature that allowed you to experiment with the engine, learn the mechanics, figure out effective methods of gameplay, and hone your skills before engaging in competitive gamesets. What did they call that back in the day? I remember! Single player.
Comments
It's the survival of the fittest, let those who are not fit uninstall the game, they're the ones who have to adapt. Not the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, yes. Because this will help a lot in growing the player base or attract new players. I am sure Devs will be delighted to follow your reasoning.
/rolleyes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that's why all basketball rings outside NBA are at 10 feet high on both sides of the court. Not one at 5 foot and the other at 11. If you want to make retarded analogies at least get them right.
The balance between each team is ######ed at lower levels of skill. Its fine if the game is just hard, so long as its equally hard at lower levels of skill for each team. But it isn't.
The balance between each team is ######ed at lower levels of skill. Its fine if the game is just hard, so long as its equally hard at lower levels of skill for each team. But it isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have exactly the same problem in Savage XR. Not only is the game asymmetrical (i.e. 60-65% Beast wins in low level matches), the learning curves are it too. Which is the worst part.
Learning Beast melee takes 2-3 years, learning Human melee takes around 1 year (while mastering Human melee takes just as long as mastering Beasts, but in early stages one race is much more rewarding). Learning human commanding takes around 1-2 years, learning to command Beasts takes only about a half year.
One way dealing with the problem would be changing the circumstances, i.e. adding tutorials, practice modes etc. However, even with tutorials and a personal coach it takes at least 2 years to become really good at Beast melee. Certain aspects of the game just take more practice than others, knowledge alone doesn't make you good.
Another way - the way S2Games decided to choose with Savage 2 - would be removing most of the asymmetries in the game.
Which made Savage 2 A LOT more beginner friendly - and more friendly too, due to less flaming and moaning about what requires more skill and what's cheap and why I deserved to frag you because I used the harder to control race/unit in battle etc.
However, I don't think that's really an option in a game like Natural Selection where the ranged vs melee is absolutely definitory for the gameplay.
Add tutorials, practice modes - so people will reach the point faster at where balanced matches are more likely to happen.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To assume that 'pros' don't give a ###### because we disagree with your approaches to balance or handling of new players is just ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That has nothing to do with it. Many "pros" don't give a crap because they can't tolerate these new players - it has nothing to do with me or my positions on balance. The reality is that the new players are an annoyance to them, and they make no bones about saying as such. The thread was dripping with it for many pages before I made my first post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bottom line? There is a serious attitude problem among people today such that they have a lack of willingness to figure things out for themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, wrong. People shouldn't have to 'figure it out for themselves' - that's the problem. We have no training and we expect people to jump into the game and become instant pros? Most of the people who know how to play have been around since NS1, and these new players have never played that mod. They know nothing of NS or how it plays. This game is too complex to toss people in and expect they can figure it out to any significant extent in a reasonable period of time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your hatred for good players is long past pathetic and frankly I wish you would stop ruining every thread on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's people like you, who dish out the constant abuse to others you disagree with, that is ruining this forum. Hot tip for you Sherlock, I am a "good player" and I certainly don't hate myself. I played competitively for almost a decade. Furthermore, there are many 'good players' out there who are helpful to new players.
However for every helpful 'good player' I see, 3 are just plain intolerant and abusive.
In three games yesterday, on separate servers, when the marines started to lose the 'pro' in the command chair just recycled the base and then proceeded to berate the 'newbies' who didn't know how to play well. (and this was on rookie servers) Finally in the third game I jumped in the chair to build some IPs, I told the 'pro' to F4 if he didn't want to play, and then I took the 'newbies' and we rolled two hives. While we still ended up losing in the end, the bottom line was that instead of just prematurely ending the game and insulting the new players, I actually took time to try and teach these people some ways to come back from what seems a lost cause. They actually had FUN despite the loss. This concept seems lost to some people in here.
Like I said, I can go through this thread and pull up quote after quote of people insulting new players... Like...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The very name Natural Selection 2 should give you a hint. It's the survival of the fittest, let those who are not fit uninstall the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you accuse me of 'hate'? The only thing I 'hate' is the elitist and egotistical attitude of some players who think they are God's gift to gaming and that new players should STFU & L2P or GTFO. Sorry, but anytime I see that I will be calling it out. If anyone doesn't like it then that's too damn bad. I make no apologies for my defence of the 'average Joe', since they are the ones who are sustaining this game.
I'm not sure which bothers me most, that people like this think they have a valid position, or the fact that competitive players are looked down upon.
I have done my fair share of trolling, being mean to newbs and pubbers, but I have also done lightyears more to help newbs and "rookies" than these people will ever hope to dream to do.
I spent SIX HOURS this week alone coaching new players and encouraging them. I have spent the same amount of time last week talking to a few people who said to me after a round "people like you ruin the game and make it too hard"
I took things into my own hands, friend-ed them, and explained to them why they lost, that all players aren't bad or mean, and that the game is very rewarding if they continue to try and learn.
Now multiply that times a thousand and that's what I did from 2003 until 2007 when I finally retired from NS1. Don't you dare try and make me seem like the bad guy for calling out a bad argument on game balance. You're clueless as to what some of us "nasty vets" actually have done to foster a successful game. Not all of us are the elitist jerks you make us out to be, and remember, we ALL started out newb. It's a thankless and tiresome task, you know, actually trying to foster a community within this game. People read my forum posts and scream troll, when, sure, half the time on the off-topic board it was, but here it isn't.
TL;DR:
I have done more personally to help coach and foster a community of willing to try/learn players than you could ever fantasize about. So don't get a rageboner at me because I was a veteran player.
But I can understand that the game will be harder for rookies that doesn't know anyone playing NS2 yet. I disagree with that there should be "big" changes to the game just to help them, it will only unbalance the game even more. I think the best way we can help them right now is by just giving them tips and hope that they are willing to learn.
Now multiply that times a thousand and that's what I did from 2003 until 2007 when I finally retired from NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I am sure all that was most welcome by new players so kuddos to you. But the main point here is surely that all that incredibly intensive work (ref " multiply by 10k... Between 2003 and 2007 etc) shouldn't be necessary in the first place.
Vets helping out now and then is normal. But come on... The level of support you guys would need to dish out for your average casual noob for this game is just staggering (which leads to frustration, raging, and players becoming upset unnecessarily... Both vets and noobs alike). Surely there are a few things Devs can do to improve that experience (GUI tweaks, maybe a tutorial map etc and possibly including balance changes that get us closer to 50/50 in pub) without you needing to be constantly doing us a favour.
As aliens, I miss the hive sight indicators[from NS1] showing where my team is in trouble- by players or structures getting damaged.
As marines, I could count on an attentive commander to give way points to some place- if not a way point, I had to rely on map memory.
If any solution is considered, I'd hope it is something seamless and intuitive like the old hive sight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->some random person that thinks that being told to learn to play the game is bad advice<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It *IS* bad advice. Not only is it bad advice it's just plain ignorant. Telling a person to "learn to play" doesn't do a single thing to help them. It's like seeing a person on the street who trips and falls down and your response is "learn to walk". Yeah, you're not helping anyone by telling them to "learn to play" - especially in a game with no training module of any kind.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or the fact that competitive players are looked down upon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Competitive players are the ones in charge of their own 'rep'. You reap what you sow.
I don't know what it is, but back in the 'old days', competitive gamers seemed to have more 'honor' - if that makes any sense. Yeah we were all fiercely competitive, but we left that on the map in the game. Outside the game we tried to set an example of being good sportsmen, and if anyone ever complained about a league member being an asshat, he was suspended or kicked from the league, depending on what he did.
Add this together with some 'competitive players' (although some are just 'experienced' players) who will openly insult new players who make honest mistakes, and it really doesn't leave me with a lot of respect for them. I've seen many a player who was 'told off' just up and leave. What does that say about the community in the game? Maybe I should start making videos of this. While I don't like or want to 'name and shame', I wonder how many videos of people with 'tags' being abusive it would take before you admit there is a problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have done my fair share of trolling, being mean to newbs and pubbers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You bemoan "competitive players are looked down upon" and yet you openly admit you engage in that behaviour?! Yet you have the gall to suggest that criticism of this kind of behaviour is unwarranted? Wow, I'm not easily surprised, but this surprised me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I spent SIX HOURS this week alone coaching new players and encouraging them. I have spent the same amount of time last week talking to a few people who said to me after a round "people like you ruin the game and make it too hard"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As for your former point, that's great, but the "trolling, being mean to newbs" you do as well just cancels that all out. The second remark you made about the people saying "you ruin the game" is exactly what the OP is saying, and yet you suggest that his point isn't one shared by others. Yet you've heard it and so have I. I'm sure you've also seen it as well.
Getting rolled isn't fun. Getting rolled isn't educational. Sitting in the spawn queue will teach a person NOTHING about the game.
The sooner people learn that the better.
A training/tutorial map would be a great idea to get the greens to learn the game without getting stomped by regulars.
That or a friendly pub where you can practice with fellow greens.
Some sort of ranking system would be a great help, where you join only servers with people with the same amount of playtime and kill/death ratio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The learning curve for all of NS may be a bit of an incline, but I disagree that it is steep. What is steep is the inability for the average joe to think he can just run in guns ablazing/teeth a chomping and to come out even remotely successful. The people that succeed quickly in NS are those that can get out of that mindset.
With that said no amount of tutorials are going to fix that, at least in regards to this level 0 marine versus skulk cry for help.. er debate. The player has to be willing to change their approach to the FPS aspect, and most people don't. They come on forums and complain.
But I can understand that the game will be harder for rookies that doesn't know anyone playing NS2 yet. I disagree with that there should be "big" changes to the game just to help them, it will only unbalance the game even more. I think the best way we can help them right now is by just giving them tips and hope that they are willing to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played with one friend. We bought the game for 2 more. My plan was to get the one friend into it and we both would get the other 2 and maybe more if we could. We even bought the game for them as Christmas presents.
During the 9 game blowout fest that night I did try to give him pointers. We were using Skype so we heard game talk and could talk to just each other. Almost every game was a brutal loss. I went from server to server, some rookie some not, looking for a better game to help him to see why I love the game so much. I was incapable of finding one.
A few posts in this thread talk about how the alien team can lose in 2 minutes like the marine one. I have logged over 80 hours into this game and not once have I seen that. Yet I have sene the opposite countless number of times. Also I have yet to read anyone arguing against the 66% win ratio of alien to marine. In games I have played I don't think it is that high but the stats are the stats if they are asccurate. And if they are, the game needs balance changes, PERIOD, END OF STORY. Let's all hope if they do make changes (which I bet they will), that they will be good ones.
Please close this thread. I have said all I can, getting blasted from here to Mars in most responses. I throw in the towel. I will be thinking twice about posting again in the future.
Thank you.
It *IS* bad advice. Not only is it bad advice it's just plain ignorant. Telling a person to "learn to play" doesn't do a single thing to help them. It's like seeing a person on the street who trips and falls down and your response is "learn to walk". Yeah, you're not helping anyone by telling them to "learn to play" - especially in a game with no training module of any kind.
Competitive players are the ones in charge of their own 'rep'. You reap what you sow.
I don't know what it is, but back in the 'old days', competitive gamers seemed to have more 'honor' - if that makes any sense. Yeah we were all fiercely competitive, but we left that on the map in the game. Outside the game we tried to set an example of being good sportsmen, and if anyone ever complained about a league member being an asshat, he was suspended or kicked from the league, depending on what he did.
Add this together with some 'competitive players' (although some are just 'experienced' players) who will openly insult new players who make honest mistakes, and it really doesn't leave me with a lot of respect for them. I've seen many a player who was 'told off' just up and leave. What does that say about the community in the game? Maybe I should start making videos of this. While I don't like or want to 'name and shame', I wonder how many videos of people with 'tags' being abusive it would take before you admit there is a problem.
You bemoan "competitive players are looked down upon" and yet you openly admit you engage in that behaviour?! Yet you have the gall to suggest that criticism of this kind of behaviour is unwarranted? Wow, I'm not easily surprised, but this surprised me.
As for your former point, that's great, but the "trolling, being mean to newbs" you do as well just cancels that all out. The second remark you made about the people saying "you ruin the game" is exactly what the OP is saying, and yet you suggest that his point isn't one shared by others. Yet you've heard it and so have I. I'm sure you've also seen it as well.
Getting rolled isn't fun. Getting rolled isn't educational. Sitting in the spawn queue will teach a person NOTHING about the game.
The sooner people learn that the better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this post: deflection
Most of the time in a pub game, khaara would be egglocked after a failed rush. Marines can easily do a counterush and end the game if organized, or at least delay alien expansion substantially even if the counterush fails.
<!--quoteo(post=2054236:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I have yet to read anyone arguing against the 66% win ratio of alien to marine. In games I have played I don't think it is that high but the stats are the stats if they are asccurate. And if they are, the game needs balance changes, PERIOD, END OF STORY. Let's all hope if they do make changes (which I bet they will), that they will be good ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think most people disagree that there is a slight advantage to the advantage overall at the moment. However, that is not relevant to the title of the thread or to your original post. Which brings us to the next part of the post
<!--quoteo(post=2054236:date=Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Jan 1 2013, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please close this thread. I have said all I can, getting blasted from here to Mars in most responses. I throw in the towel. I will be thinking twice about posting again in the future.
Thank you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Most of the things you said has been addressed. People who agree will agree and people who see things differently will continue seeing things differently. I am not sure why you are "throwing in the towel" since it seems a number of people (most, I would even say) agree with you in that this game is unfriendly for new players. The issue then seems like somewhere down the line you took the stance, "This game is extremely unfriendly for marines" over the original title.
It's the survival of the fittest, let those who are not fit uninstall the game, they're the ones who have to adapt. Not the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get it. So if something is poorly explained this isn't the programms fault but the players are to blame? What kind of attitude is that supposed to be. That's like having a terrible teacher who cannot even explain the most easiest things and keeps blaming his students for his own incapability to explain himself. I mean, of course the new players have to learn learn to play NS2 and noone would disagree here. The question is just what does the game do in order to help the newbies doing so and in fact it is part of the job of the dev's to include mechanisms that help new players to grasp what's going on.
Yelling "L2P" should not be used as an excuse for the lack of in-game explanations and advices. If that would be true, IKEA could simply save the paper for their manuals and tell their customers that they shouldn't be such pansies and figure out how to put a cupboard together without any instructions. And those who like games like Rome oder Shogun, heck, real experts don't need any sort of explanations, tutorials and whatsoever, just take a few weeks off from work and learn this game like you would learn for an exam. That sounds like real fun!
Seriously! The players are customers who brought a product they want to have fun with. If the first experience they have is mixture of confusion, frustration and "<i>What the hell is going on here?</i>" then that isn't a very good first impression to start with. A good game - and NS2 is a very good game indeed! - should explain itself while you play it, it should take your hand in order to explain things you would probably not know, and speaking of NS2, that's quite a lot. Still, NS2 doesn't do that - there are no in-game explanations and hardly any tool-tips whatsoever. You cannot expect customers, who had a rather bad time with this game so far, to take their time to read wikis, watch youtube-videos or ask other players. That has nothing to do with dumping down the game - adding tool-tips that explain, for example what an Armslab is for, hardly dumps down the game but might be a big help for new players.
Yelling "L2P" should not be used as an excuse for the lack of in-game explanations and advices. If that would be true, IKEA could simply save the paper for their manuals and tell their customers that they shouldn't be such pansies and figure out how to put a cupboard together without any instructions. And those who like games like Rome oder Shogun, heck, real experts don't need any sort of explanations, tutorials and whatsoever, just take a few weeks off from work and learn this game like you would learn for an exam. That sounds like real fun!
Seriously! The players are customers who brought a product they want to have fun with. If the first experience they have is mixture of confusion, frustration and "<i>What the hell is going on here?</i>" then that isn't a very good first impression to start with. A good game - and NS2 is a very good game indeed! - should explain itself while you play it, it should take your hand in order to explain things you would probably not know, and speaking of NS2, that's quite a lot. Still, NS2 doesn't do that - there are no in-game explanations and hardly any tool-tips whatsoever. You cannot expect customers, who had a rather bad time with this game so far, to take their time to read wikis, watch youtube-videos or ask other players. That has nothing to do with dumping down the game - adding tool-tips that explain, for example what an Armslab is for, hardly dumps down the game but might be a big help for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, the tutorial of any game is a crucial element, and in NS2's case it's a bit underwhelming.
The OP however was suggesting we buff the marines because new players are dying too often, which is kind of silly reasoning.
The main problem that I found was that playing Kharaa requires different tactics - and has a completely different control scheme and even the UI. It lacks any familiarity. Now, on it's own, it's not a bad thing, but new players WILL happily go play as rifle-wielding soldiers, as it's more familiar, and without any help will have a hard time playing as the aliens. This in turns means that if they DO play as aliens (because there's no spot left on the human side) they'll quickly get frustrated.
Now, before anyone reaches any conclusions - I only got frustrated when playing as Kharaa when one of two things happened:
a) the hive is being attacked my a massive assault force, and there's almost nothing I can do as a Skulk but charge head-first into rifle fire
b) when being ordered to assault an entrenched human position - again, nothing left but to run head-first into rifle-fire... unless you have resources for something other than a Skulk
Other than the above, there are some design issues which feel really alienating (no pun intended) for new players. Why don't aliens get a mini-map? Maps are confusing as it is, with the air ducts offering extra paths. Playing as Kharaa one needs to know the map by heart as it is - which really does not help new players at all.
Secondly, I STLL can't adjust to the Skulk wall-climbing mechanism. I've played a bit of Aliens vs Predator, and an alien in that game was always "level" with the surface it was on. In NS2, Skulks are always level with the ground, which means that, for example, if I'm running down a corridor, and want to get onto the ceiling, I need to LOOK at it - I cannot strafe my way there. It also means that actually sticking to said ceiling is a problem which is further compounded by the fact that ceilings in NS2 have a lot of bumps. And since I'm on the subject of AvP... why even bother with the standard Kharaa view as opposed to the "heat" view? In AvP aliens naturally saw outlines of their enemies in view, which meant that BOTH views available in that game were viable. In NS2 this doesn't seem to be the case. The inability to see the flashlight of incoming marines isn't much of a problem, given how loud they are (unless there's another upside to the default view I'm yet to grasp).
Right, so... the main problem is that Kharaa is really, really poorly explained. The required playstyle of the default unit really lacks in familiarity for regular FPS gamers, and means that it's hard to get a grip on things. How should that be changed? Well, I'd start with a minimap, a "level with surface" view (or at least option) and outlines in default view, but I fear more would be needed to make this side more accessible to new players.
For the rest I've been surprise at the players who are in general quite funny to play with. I'm sure the answer would be much positive and that even experienced players would be quite open to team up and teach to new ones.
I see this one alot - you can press C for minimap. Likewise for marines. The most important newbie hint that UWE has failed to implement over many years.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) the hive is being attacked my a massive assault force, and there's almost nothing I can do as a Skulk but charge head-first into rifle fire
b) when being ordered to assault an entrenched human position - again, nothing left but to run head-first into rifle-fire... unless you have resources for something other than a Skulk<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This one is partly a L2P, and partly the fault of a lacking tutorial introducing new players to skulk movement philosophy.
a) Why more teamwork on aliens is required contrary to popular belief. You either attack as a group, or use your mobility to 'hit and run' to stall for time. Your hive can tank damage somewhat, so you don't need to always just run into rifle fire by yourself.
b) See a). Turtles are rooted in more than just L2P though. Tweaks to spawn rates and turtle power are being looked at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, I STLL can't adjust to the Skulk wall-climbing mechanism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AVP wall walking is disorientating for alot of people and does not mechanically work with walljumping / skulk movement. Imagine the world rotating every time you want to get a speed boost! Not to mention accidentally walking up walls when you don't want to. Unfortunately this is just something you need to get used to, although i'm sure someone will end up making an AVP style wallwalking mod.
When writing my post I knew full well of C, but I wrote about a MINI-map, not a full map. Opening a full-screen map with C doesn't compare to a small minimap showing your position at all times in the corner, which helps navigating a lot.
Most modern FPS titles build the player up to be this amazing warrior, with the AI constantly commanding you to "get on the turret," "take out that position," and doing other things that essentially build up the "one man army" mentality. You can see it with new players, they get in and want to join the frontiersmen side, only to run off on their own to their death. You really have to approach the FPS side of the game like Starship troopers: In the movie during the invasion of the bug planet you see an eager platoon of infantry encounter their first bug. It takes all of them focusing on that one bug just to bring it down, then the rest of the bug army shows up. When questioned with what they should do, Rico responds "KILL THEM, KILL THEM ALL" and they all push forward in one big block firing as a single unit. I think a lot of new players don't get this, and their mentality is further reinforced when they see vets getting some ridiculous K/D ratios.
The RTS side is a bit more complex: sure it plays like a traditional RTS with all the standard learning that that genre requires, but then you exacerbate the newbie command mistakes by having to "control" units that actually have their own mind. In movies you see a disjoint between new officers and their men, this is exaggerated quite a bit if you're a new NS2 commander with even one or two vets under your command. Beyond that you'll have people with incomplete information telling you what you should be doing as commander. Effectively people start pulling command decisions away from their commander.
On the hybrid side, I think a lot of newbies don't use their maps that often so they never have a good understanding of the team situation or their own. The same goes for communication, mics are really helpful to update your buddies in real time. I've watched other new people run single file to their deaths because they didn't communicate with each other or look at their map.
It really comes down to dispelling the mindset that modern RTS and FPS have instilled into most new players. Unfortunately there aren't many ways to do this short of player experience.
Well, maybe you should KEEP PLAYING the game you've never heard of before for 30 hours to get PRACTICE, so you won't whine about it and will start to have FUN.
Wait, we were talking about Natural Selection 2? I was talking about <i>Marine Tactical Command 5</i>; an RTS from 2001 that only has one player on its leaderboards - me. I'm at the top, by the way.
Maybe people would play that game if they would stop assuming it'd be like EVERY other game ever made where you don't have to THINK, and you could WIN just by working as a TEAM. MTC5's strategy is entirely decided by your hotkey placement. Anyone who didn't realize that and can't learn to issue a command on the other side of the minimap at a moment's notice, then starts whining about it, probably shouldn't have even bothered picking it up.
(Yes, this post is a joke. It's meant to say; "Look at yourself, <i>pro</i>. You're an idiot.")
I'll let you guess which item is responsible for this. Some peoples either have auto aim or their sleep with their mouses up their asses.
That's just sh*ty.....
I think you mad bro...
I think you might be bad at the game because you think sleeping with a mouse up your arse makes you better at it.
Pretty sure Locklears L2PNS2 never covered inserting parts of your PC up your colon...
L2P bro...
Wait no...
L2L2P... Learn to Learn to Play yo?... Ya get me bruv!?!??!
Yeah you get me... I sees it in yo eyes bruv...
<img src="http://funlexia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Brofist.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Put baby powder on your mousepad, it makes your aim silky smooth.
I see what you did there!
Most modern FPS titles build the player up to be this amazing warrior, with the AI constantly commanding you to "get on the turret," "take out that position," and doing other things that essentially build up the "one man army" mentality. You can see it with new players, they get in and want to join the frontiersmen side, only to run off on their own to their death. You really have to approach the FPS side of the game like Starship troopers: In the movie during the invasion of the bug planet you see an eager platoon of infantry encounter their first bug. It takes all of them focusing on that one bug just to bring it down, then the rest of the bug army shows up. When questioned with what they should do, Rico responds "KILL THEM, KILL THEM ALL" and they all push forward in one big block firing as a single unit. I think a lot of new players don't get this, and their mentality is further reinforced when they see vets getting some ridiculous K/D ratios.
The RTS side is a bit more complex: sure it plays like a traditional RTS with all the standard learning that that genre requires, but then you exacerbate the newbie command mistakes by having to "control" units that actually have their own mind. In movies you see a disjoint between new officers and their men, this is exaggerated quite a bit if you're a new NS2 commander with even one or two vets under your command. Beyond that you'll have people with incomplete information telling you what you should be doing as commander. Effectively people start pulling command decisions away from their commander.
On the hybrid side, I think a lot of newbies don't use their maps that often so they never have a good understanding of the team situation or their own. The same goes for communication, mics are really helpful to update your buddies in real time. I've watched other new people run single file to their deaths because they didn't communicate with each other or look at their map.
It really comes down to dispelling the mindset that modern RTS and FPS have instilled into most new players. Unfortunately there aren't many ways to do this short of player experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there is a lot of truth in this post.
I do think that experienced players could do more to helping the newbies. The problem is, when I sit down to play, especially lately, my play time is limited. I don't want to spend the next 2 hours teaching people how to play. Is this a failing of the game? Probably, there should be a better tutorial. That said, newbies need to not be n00bs. Newbies want to learn; n00bs are belligerent in their lack of knowledge and feel that since they plopped some scratch down for a game, they don't have to take the time to learn anything. It's "my game, I paid for it, I'll play how I want". This is the mantra of the n00b. n00bs ruin it for newbies. Now, even with the lack of tutorial, people have learned how to play, so the game is not some insurmountable mountain.
It boils down to a certain level of maturity. And by maturity I mean knowing that:
Those other marines and aliens moving around the screen, and those other voices you hear? Those are real people, not bots. Treat them how you want to be treated.
This game relies on those other people working together.
Listen to the commander and do what they say.
Sometimes you will lose, be a good sport about it.
Sometimes you will win, be a good sport about it.
"In game" is not the best place to learn the most basic stuff.
If someone asks a simple question in game, and you know the answer, give them a quick answer. If you don't want to answer, don't. Just don't berate them for asking.
If everyone followed these rules, we would be much better off.