<!--quoteo(post=2046025:date=Dec 15 2012, 05:12 AM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Dec 15 2012, 05:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the LAST TIME. BAD PERFORMANCE! It's really that simple! Sheesh. And the hit registration. Enough with this balance nonsense and what's harder and who players better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do politely disagree.
Edit: Although i have to agree that the performance is an issue as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2046019:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:04 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 14 2012, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually a single skulk can solo kill an EXO in just 7 seconds if all his bites connect for the full amount. By comparison it takes an Onos 6 seconds to kill an EXO. So for all intents and purposes a skulk is just as deadly as an Onos with respect to EXOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks also die in about 0.2s of fire from an exo where as a carapace onos takes about 6 seconds and an almost overheated gun if he doesn't miss a single bullet.
For all intents and purposes, a skulk is no where near as deadly as an onos...
<!--quoteo(post=2045808:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:34 PM:name=Hivelord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hivelord @ Dec 14 2012, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What an awful thread. How about actually discussing balance instead of incomplete statistics?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Statistical analysis is almost always done on incomplete statistics. We almost never have complete statistics. The sample OP is referencing is VERY large in comparison to the total number of games played in NS2. It's statistically all but definitely an accurate representation of the averages of all games.
<!--quoteo(post=2046058:date=Dec 15 2012, 02:30 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 15 2012, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks also die in about 0.2s of fire from an exo where as a carapace onos takes about 6 seconds and an almost overheated gun if he doesn't miss a single bullet. For all intents and purposes, a skulk is no where near as deadly as an onos...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't want to get off topic here, but 'deadliness' has little to do with the health of the avatar being played. Deadliness is damage OUT, not how easy it is to kill the one dealing the damage. Is the skulk easier to kill than an Onos? Absofreakinglutely! But that doesn't lessen the damage the skulk deals.
A skulk can kill an EXO in 7 seconds. A weapons 3 LMG marine would need 32 seconds and 5 clips to kill an Onos. Both of them would die in second, so why is it that you never see a marine solo killing an Onos, but skulks take out EXOs all the time? That's deadliness.
Anyway, the craptastic nature of the EXO is an issue for another thread since I could write an essay on how terribad it is. :)
<!--quoteo(post=2046078:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:25 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 14 2012, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so why is it that you never see a marine solo killing an Onos, but skulks take out EXOs all the time?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's almost like they're different units with like... different advantages and disadvantages.
On a more serious note the Onos annoys me in the same way I think it irritates you (or for perhaps somewhat similar reasons). The onos is just better in every way, at every job than every other alien lifeform (with the exception of fighting JP in large rooms). Being an onos really doesn't have a single drawback.
<!--quoteo(post=2046078:date=Dec 15 2012, 01:25 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 15 2012, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to get off topic here, but 'deadliness' has little to do with the health of the avatar being played. Deadliness is damage OUT, not how easy it is to kill the one dealing the damage. Is the skulk easier to kill than an Onos? Absofreakinglutely! But that doesn't lessen the damage the skulk deals.
A skulk can kill an EXO in 7 seconds. A weapons 3 LMG marine would need 32 seconds and 5 clips to kill an Onos. Both of them would die in second, so why is it that you never see a marine solo killing an Onos, but skulks take out EXOs all the time? That's deadliness.
Anyway, the craptastic nature of the EXO is an issue for another thread since I could write an essay on how terribad it is. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, no.
A skulk isn't deadly specifically because the exo can kill it so easily. I don't know where these people see a skulk kill an exo. It is, however, completely irrelevant because these are obviously very new players if they're dying to a single skulk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Hitreg and performance is a serious issue, and the release has seen an inflex of people with 'typica' computers - and are struggling. Melee is less dependent on accuracy than ranged, since your skill is in movement moreso than pinpoint aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. X 200000. Also, cysts and infestation lag up marines...
You guys are all whining like 9 year olds over JB and Twilight over statistics. Who gives a ######. Yes, we know it has a very large favor for aliens, now what do you want to do about it? First you morons need to analyze the situation: What does it take for aliens to win the game?
Aliens need to: Kill all the CC's OR kill all marines
Alright, how do aliens have to go about doing this? They have to secure a second or third hive location, or rush the marine base, usually. Get a few upgrades here and there, but nothing really significant so long as they win all their small skirmishes. They can even lose some since it's not that hard to defend against marines.
What do marines have to do to win: Kill all hives. Only win condition. How do they have to go about this? Usually marines have to set up a forward hold at some point to push the aliens back while all this is occuring there's one thing happening in the background.
Everything that is VITAL to marine gameplay revolves around the accumulation of TRes. The only major PRes sink for marines are mines (which are usually atrocious and barely bought) and exos at the very very late game.
What do aliens need to spend TRes on? Hives* Cysts Harvesters Upgrades* Abilities*
* means that aliens only have to buy a few
So what makes this list distinct from marines, is that aliens do not NEED to buy forward structures. Yes, they can buy whips, shifts, crags, etc. But they don't NEED them. Marines have to hold down locations with a phase gate, an armory, and if they're lucky an observatory. All this together costs as much as a single hive does for aliens, not including the second phase gate, which makes it cost more than a single hive costs.
So what I'm getting at with this point is that marines have to dump TRes into holding a location, whereas aliens only need to be a skulk generally to do damage. Sure they can go to a higher life form, but for the majority aliens remain as a skulk.
And we all know what this leads to: Onos
Marines are on a timer, and a tight one. From the start of the game marines have to go out, secure at least 4 RTs, and a phase location, while stopping and building, and killing skulks, and waiting for tech to research. When they get their phase gate up, they have to make sure they hold all of their RTs, AND attack the alien RTs. What do aliens get to do in this entire first phase of the game? Attack Attack Attack All aliens do in early game is attack. This overwhelming force, and it will be overwhelming because they have at least a numerical advantage of 1 player because one person has to build in base (and sometimes an extra rine or two will stay). If aliens win even ONE of these engagements they set themselves for a strong lead mid-game. Usually it means the loss of 10 rez for marines, a delayed push for a hold on a second area, and overall slower advancement beyond the implications of the destruction of 1 RT. This early game advantage serves as the catalyst for the Onos which is what so heavily influences games. This is the pressure marines are constantly under.
How long does it take aliens to get carapace? Less than one minute into the game. Before marines have even finished building adjacent RTs. While this is a stupid decision (it requires all the resources that you start with so you have to wait a very long time to expand) it nonetheless demonstrates the speed that aliens can achieve mid-game power early game. Marines are going to take about 5 minutes normally to achieve a1 and w1, what would be considered the beginning of mid-game for marine tech in my opinion.
So the win conditions for marines are now: Win every engagement early game Maintain firm hold of forward choke Keep alien RTs below 4 Win the game before Onos, or get end-game tech before they can take out your forward base
Win conditions for aliens: Win at least 1 engagement early game Get an ugprade Get a second hive Maintain 4 or more RTs Keep marine RTs below 5
These don't reflect an early game rush, however they do reflect the huge disparity between the requirements for marines to win and aliens to win. Aliens have little difficulty winning early to mid game so long as they win at least one early engagement. And even if they don't, they just need to hold marines back long enough to get Onos on the field.
<!--quoteo(post=2046080:date=Dec 15 2012, 01:41 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Dec 15 2012, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's almost like they're different units with like... different advantages and disadvantages.
On a more serious note the Onos annoys me in the same way I think it irritates you (or for perhaps somewhat similar reasons). The onos is just better in every way, at every job than every other alien lifeform (with the exception of fighting JP in large rooms). Being an onos really doesn't have a single drawback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The "large room" must have some sort of rafter or ledge to perch in as well. Really, any room with a high ceiling and perch is what's needed. It's far from a counter though, as the onos can just head into a hallway.
I agree on performance. I noticed on my crappy PC i always get more frames on alien. Makes it easier to kill. On marines gg I can barely aim right trying to track skulks in a slideshow. But that's only because my gfx card died and I am using an old one that limits me at 20-30 frames. With my newer one I got 50-60 and use to crush so many skulks/aliens that get in my way. I guess I am just used to smooth game play. Also skulks tend to move around a lot when they attack so if your system sucks and turning around makes you hiccup in frames it's already over. I am really not sure if hit reg is a problem. Skulks move so fast that I can only kill them from distances and they tend to leave me fatally wounded if I kill them up close. So I'd like to see a few videos on how hit registration is with all the complainers out there. Of course staying with your team is always ideal.
They simply need to raise a bunch of costs on alien tech, or expand the number of tech paths because right now even if you manage to 'damage' the alien economy by cosntantly hitting harvesters, it doesn't affect them all too much in the general scope of things since they are so heavily balanced around needing only 2 - 3 extractors.
Which is another point, the whole 'aliens only need 3 extractors' is such an incredible design flaw. Why exactly do aliens need less RTs to have a 'healthy' economy compared to marines? This makes no sense in the overall balance of things. If anything, aliens generally have it easier to hold extractors than marines. Fix this massive discrepancy and you'll see marines will have a noticeable easier time competing past the early game. (Not to mention it will also prolong the early game, which is more fun for everyone)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the whole 'aliens only need 3 extractors' is such an incredible design flaw.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you play the game? When aliens only have 3 RT's, they not gonna make it. Also lerks/ fades and onos costs resources you know, and only with 3 you can't buy thm within 3 hours. Also when aliens got 3, the marines got the rest and will comm in with exo's wihtin minutes...
<!--quoteo(post=2046132:date=Dec 15 2012, 11:53 AM:name=Paniohitus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paniohitus @ Dec 15 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you play the game? When aliens only have 3 RT's, they not gonna make it. Also lerks/ fades and onos costs resources you know, and only with 3 you can't buy thm within 3 hours. Also when aliens got 3, the marines got the rest and will comm in with exo's wihtin minutes...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
game is balanced around 6v6 where it's not that easy to hold that many rts so not all are built at all times like it is in 10v10.
<!--quoteo(post=2046139:date=Dec 15 2012, 04:12 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 15 2012, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->game is balanced around 6v6 where it's not that easy to hold that many rts so not all are built at all times like it is in 10v10.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, its just the performance that is "balanced" around 6 vs 6 :>.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2045682:date=Dec 14 2012, 04:55 PM:name=Schleppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schleppy @ Dec 14 2012, 04:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The map is terrible, I wont argue that one bit (and it's been terrible since release, lets not do anything about that UWE!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to take this opportunity to guarantee to you that I absolutely most certainly definitely haven't been working very hard to improve the way Refinery both performs and plays. Any updates to the map that you may see in the near future are most likely an illusion caused by swamp gas, or light bouncing off a strut.
<!--quoteo(post=2046189:date=Dec 15 2012, 03:08 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Dec 15 2012, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to take this opportunity to guarantee to you that I absolutely most certainly definitely haven't been working very hard to improve the way Refinery both performs and plays. Any updates to the map that you may see in the near future are most likely an illusion caused by swamp gas, or light bouncing off a strut.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2045259:date=Dec 13 2012, 05:49 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Dec 13 2012, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that the problem is with the hitreg. You rarely see marines able to kill 2 skulks anymore unless there is a serious skill gap. I am not saying that every marine should be able to always kill two skulks, but a good marine in a good position should have enough damage to kill 2 skulks. Tells me something is off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES! Currently, 1 good lurk can kill a LOT of marines and is a total beyotch to kill as only main body reg's hits.
On top of that, marine weapons have almost zero stopping power. As an alien, there is no weapon that I go "Oh $#!t, RUN!" when I see it equipped, and I think there really needs to be something that aliens get a little hesitant to attack 1v1 or 1v2.
I feel like shotgun needs a slight damage buff (or double barrel!), or maybe an additional reasearchable "ammo" upgrade (armor piercing, etc). As is, if I'm lucky enough to hit, I am almost certani it won't kill them before they kill me.
<!--quoteo(post=2046078:date=Dec 15 2012, 01:25 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 15 2012, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to get off topic here, but 'deadliness' has little to do with the health of the avatar being played. Deadliness is damage OUT, not how easy it is to kill the one dealing the damage. Is the skulk easier to kill than an Onos? Absofreakinglutely! But that doesn't lessen the damage the skulk deals.
A skulk can kill an EXO in 7 seconds. A weapons 3 LMG marine would need 32 seconds and 5 clips to kill an Onos. Both of them would die in second, so why is it that you never see a marine solo killing an Onos, but skulks take out EXOs all the time? That's deadliness.
Anyway, the craptastic nature of the EXO is an issue for another thread since I could write an essay on how terribad it is. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With regards to this, my thoughts are that even though NS1 Onos had more Carapace (realistically based on how Armor mitigates damage), it was much more "soloable" as a W3 LMG/SG/HMG Marine. My belief in this category is that the shortcoming comes from immobile JPs (I mean really they feel like they weigh more than an EXO) and the distinct lack of an additional fully automatic weapon (such as the HMG). I was in favor of adding an upgraded "magazine" to the Rifle, perhaps giving it 25 more rounds per clip with a 2-CC Arms/Adv. Armory upgrade.
Forgive me it has been a long while since I have played a game of NS1, but if memory serves; a single JP/HMG/SGer was INCREDIBLY effective at countering an Onos. Maps were also more open and multi-tiered to further the advantage of a JP (thinking catwalks in ns_caged).
Now I consider myself to be a skilled player and I cannot even dent a NS2 Onos with a JP/Shotgun, because that is your only direct damage choice to dissuade an Onos from hitting your power. NS2 JPs are too sluggish to evade, gore has far too long of a range (or it's simply the lag compensation), and a SG is just not fast enough to take down an Onos. I understand that Marines are meant to play as a team to take down more than one Onos (and even a single one), but if this is the case perhaps we need to talk about limiting the amount of EXO/Onos per team?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but skulks take out EXOs all the time? That's deadliness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uhu, can we please talk about things that make sense? So 1 skulk take out exo's all the time? In the games I play it will happen sometimes that 1 skulk can take out an exo, but really not all the time. And when it happen it's a noob in an exosuit. Why people always talk about things that are happen always when this is not?
<!--quoteo(post=2046248:date=Dec 15 2012, 10:46 AM:name=Paniohitus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paniohitus @ Dec 15 2012, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uhu, can we please talk about things that make sense? So 1 skulk take out exo's all the time? In the games I play it will happen sometimes that 1 skulk can take out an exo, but really not all the time. And when it happen it's a noob in an exosuit. Why people always talk about things that are happen always when this is not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If we could turn viewmodels off you'd probably see a lot less exos dying.
<!--quoteo(post=2046231:date=Dec 15 2012, 05:01 PM:name=DJSchmidi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJSchmidi @ Dec 15 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel like shotgun needs a slight damage buff (or double barrel!), or maybe an additional reasearchable "ammo" upgrade (armor piercing, etc). As is, if I'm lucky enough to hit, I am almost certani it won't kill them before they kill me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good lord no, when I shotgun hits it's stupidly deadly the last thing it needs is a damage buff. However a change in it's spread is needed, it seems to rely way too much on luck not skill to hit something with the shotgun. At just about any range you can end up with anything from 20 to 200 damage. If it was much more reliable with good aim at close range (and to balance worse at long range) it would be much better.
<!--quoteo(post=2046234:date=Dec 15 2012, 05:10 PM:name=Kazter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kazter @ Dec 15 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the distinct lack of an additional fully automatic weapon (such as the HMG). I was in favor of adding an upgraded "magazine" to the Rifle, perhaps giving it 25 more rounds per clip with a 2-CC Arms/Adv. Armory upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd really like to see this. It would be a good mid game buff for the LMG that would make it more effective. My only worry is while it would be a good counter for mid game onos (which is badly needed) it might be too powerful against everything else.
Ellen RipleyJoin Date: 2012-11-06Member: 167803Members
<!--quoteo(post=2046248:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:46 PM:name=Paniohitus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paniohitus @ Dec 15 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uhu, can we please talk about things that make sense? So 1 skulk take out exo's all the time? In the games I play it will happen sometimes that 1 skulk can take out an exo, but really not all the time. And when it happen it's a noob in an exosuit. Why people always talk about things that are happen always when this is not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It usually doesn't happen if the exo is escorted. A lone exo though can be severely damaged by a skulk ambush.
The big problem is that the guns on a dual mini require seem to require a certain period without any sharp aim corrections before they will spin up. You can test this in explore mode, or just fooling around in a safe base. Sharp aim corrections (as you would make to track a flailing skulk) will cause your guns to spin down. If you don't realize this, or simply forget, a skulk can ruin your day as you panic and desperately try to kill it with your guns making stupid "Wrrrrrr.....Wrrrrrr.....Wrrrr...." noises and not actually firing.
I don't think it's an intended feature, as it's not very consistent. The spinup animation is triggered repeatedly as if you were madly clicking the mouse buttons. I don't know if it's a bug everyone has or if it's related to specific drivers/hardware. It may even be a performance related problem.
It's actually one area where the 50 res exo has an advantage, because the fist doesn't do that.
<!--quoteo(post=2046267:date=Dec 15 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Ellen Ripley)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ellen Ripley @ Dec 15 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...It's actually one area where the 50 res exo has an advantage, because the fist doesn't do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I love the 1x EXO, I can't hit a Skulk to save my life in a 2x EXO, but a Fist...ahh yes, I will punch the crap out of you if you try getting close to me.
<!--quoteo(post=2046231:date=Dec 15 2012, 09:01 AM:name=DJSchmidi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJSchmidi @ Dec 15 2012, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On top of that, marine weapons have almost zero stopping power. As an alien, there is no weapon that I go "Oh $#!t, RUN!" when I see it equipped, and I think there really needs to be something that aliens get a little hesitant to attack 1v1 or 1v2.
I feel like shotgun needs a slight damage buff (or double barrel!), or maybe an additional reasearchable "ammo" upgrade (armor piercing, etc). As is, if I'm lucky enough to hit, I am almost certani it won't kill them before they kill me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
<!--quoteo(post=2046248:date=Dec 15 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Paniohitus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paniohitus @ Dec 15 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uhu, can we please talk about things that make sense? So 1 skulk take out exo's all the time? In the games I play it will happen sometimes that 1 skulk can take out an exo, but really not all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Then you are playing on alien teams where none of the people know how deadly the skulk is to an EXO. When EXOs first appear in the game my reaction isn't to grab an Onos and go after them, it's run in and kill it as a skulk. If they have welders healing it I'll kill the welders first, leaving the EXO defenceless. On two occasions I have killed *TWO* EXOs, and lived.
Please, try that with a LMG marine. Oh wait, you can't since you need 5 weapon 3 LMG clips and 32 seconds to solo kill ONE Onos, you'd never have enough ammo to kill two, let alone one.
The EXO is garbage. I will only play it myself in rare situations, and even then only in a defensive role. It's just a waste of res right now. As an Onos I can run right up to an EXO *while he is firing both guns* and kill him before he can kill me. Sometimes I feel guilty about it since it seems so unfair that the poor guy doesn't even have a hope to defend himself. Then I charge away, heal up, and repeat it.
However, the EXO is just a small part of the much bigger alien/marine imbalance that the developers are working on.
My only concern is that after the last 'balance' patch things have gotten worse. Looking at ~1900 games it is still 2/3rds win rate for aliens.
The only other concern I have about the game right now, is that the balance changes necessary will likely create a wave of QQ by those who liked the OP aliens. The devs will have to swing the nerfbat, and when it hits the result isn't going to be pretty.
<!--quoteo(post=2046266:date=Dec 15 2012, 07:22 PM:name=Emoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Emoo @ Dec 15 2012, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd really like to see this. It would be a good mid game buff for the LMG that would make it more effective. My only worry is while it would be a good counter for mid game onos (which is badly needed) it might be too powerful against everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So because one thing (the Onos) is unbalanced, rather buff another weapon to unbalance it against everything but the Onos?
They should rather add a drawback to the Onos rather than doing that. The Exo has the drawback of low mobility, inability to use phase gates or getting beaconed, inability of getting direct support from Commanders (except for MACs) and the inability to repair stuff. There are tons of reasons for not having the entire team go Exo. But there is no reason for not having the entire alien team go Onos (except maybe for 1-2 Gorges or Lerks to support, though they are not really needed if you really have 7+ Onos on your team to just steamroll the enemy across the entire map and the khammander has some Crag nests set up), because there is nothing really that an Onos does worse than a Skulk or other lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=2046266:date=Dec 15 2012, 02:22 PM:name=Emoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Emoo @ Dec 15 2012, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd really like to see this. It would be a good mid game buff for the LMG that would make it more effective. My only worry is while it would be a good counter for mid game onos (which is badly needed) it might be too powerful against everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What midgame Onos? If aliens get to 75 PRes(or three hives) before the marines have the means to stop an Onos, that means they were already winning by a lot.
Comments
I do politely disagree.
Edit: Although i have to agree that the performance is an issue as well.
Skulks also die in about 0.2s of fire from an exo where as a carapace onos takes about 6 seconds and an almost overheated gun if he doesn't miss a single bullet.
For all intents and purposes, a skulk is no where near as deadly as an onos...
Statistical analysis is almost always done on incomplete statistics. We almost never have complete statistics. The sample OP is referencing is VERY large in comparison to the total number of games played in NS2. It's statistically all but definitely an accurate representation of the averages of all games.
A skulk can kill an EXO in 7 seconds. A weapons 3 LMG marine would need 32 seconds and 5 clips to kill an Onos. Both of them would die in second, so why is it that you never see a marine solo killing an Onos, but skulks take out EXOs all the time? That's deadliness.
Anyway, the craptastic nature of the EXO is an issue for another thread since I could write an essay on how terribad it is. :)
It's almost like they're different units with like... different advantages and disadvantages.
On a more serious note the Onos annoys me in the same way I think it irritates you (or for perhaps somewhat similar reasons). The onos is just better in every way, at every job than every other alien lifeform (with the exception of fighting JP in large rooms). Being an onos really doesn't have a single drawback.
A skulk can kill an EXO in 7 seconds. A weapons 3 LMG marine would need 32 seconds and 5 clips to kill an Onos. Both of them would die in second, so why is it that you never see a marine solo killing an Onos, but skulks take out EXOs all the time? That's deadliness.
Anyway, the craptastic nature of the EXO is an issue for another thread since I could write an essay on how terribad it is. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, no.
A skulk isn't deadly specifically because the exo can kill it so easily. I don't know where these people see a skulk kill an exo. It is, however, completely irrelevant because these are obviously very new players if they're dying to a single skulk.
This. X 200000. Also, cysts and infestation lag up marines...
Aliens need to:
Kill all the CC's
OR kill all marines
Alright, how do aliens have to go about doing this? They have to secure a second or third hive location, or rush the marine base, usually. Get a few upgrades here and there, but nothing really significant so long as they win all their small skirmishes. They can even lose some since it's not that hard to defend against marines.
What do marines have to do to win: Kill all hives. Only win condition. How do they have to go about this? Usually marines have to set up a forward hold at some point to push the aliens back while all this is occuring there's one thing happening in the background.
Res accumulation.
What do marines have to spend TRes on?
Weapons and armor upgrades
Phase gates
Phase gate tech
IPs
Armories
Everything that is VITAL to marine gameplay revolves around the accumulation of TRes. The only major PRes sink for marines are mines (which are usually atrocious and barely bought) and exos at the very very late game.
What do aliens need to spend TRes on?
Hives*
Cysts
Harvesters
Upgrades*
Abilities*
* means that aliens only have to buy a few
So what makes this list distinct from marines, is that aliens do not NEED to buy forward structures. Yes, they can buy whips, shifts, crags, etc. But they don't NEED them. Marines have to hold down locations with a phase gate, an armory, and if they're lucky an observatory. All this together costs as much as a single hive does for aliens, not including the second phase gate, which makes it cost more than a single hive costs.
So what I'm getting at with this point is that marines have to dump TRes into holding a location, whereas aliens only need to be a skulk generally to do damage. Sure they can go to a higher life form, but for the majority aliens remain as a skulk.
And we all know what this leads to:
Onos
Marines are on a timer, and a tight one. From the start of the game marines have to go out, secure at least 4 RTs, and a phase location, while stopping and building, and killing skulks, and waiting for tech to research. When they get their phase gate up, they have to make sure they hold all of their RTs, AND attack the alien RTs. What do aliens get to do in this entire first phase of the game?
Attack
Attack
Attack
All aliens do in early game is attack. This overwhelming force, and it will be overwhelming because they have at least a numerical advantage of 1 player because one person has to build in base (and sometimes an extra rine or two will stay). If aliens win even ONE of these engagements they set themselves for a strong lead mid-game. Usually it means the loss of 10 rez for marines, a delayed push for a hold on a second area, and overall slower advancement beyond the implications of the destruction of 1 RT. This early game advantage serves as the catalyst for the Onos which is what so heavily influences games. This is the pressure marines are constantly under.
How long does it take aliens to get carapace?
Less than one minute into the game. Before marines have even finished building adjacent RTs.
While this is a stupid decision (it requires all the resources that you start with so you have to wait a very long time to expand) it nonetheless demonstrates the speed that aliens can achieve mid-game power early game. Marines are going to take about 5 minutes normally to achieve a1 and w1, what would be considered the beginning of mid-game for marine tech in my opinion.
So the win conditions for marines are now:
Win every engagement early game
Maintain firm hold of forward choke
Keep alien RTs below 4
Win the game before Onos, or get end-game tech before they can take out your forward base
Win conditions for aliens:
Win at least 1 engagement early game
Get an ugprade
Get a second hive
Maintain 4 or more RTs
Keep marine RTs below 5
These don't reflect an early game rush, however they do reflect the huge disparity between the requirements for marines to win and aliens to win. Aliens have little difficulty winning early to mid game so long as they win at least one early engagement. And even if they don't, they just need to hold marines back long enough to get Onos on the field.
On a more serious note the Onos annoys me in the same way I think it irritates you (or for perhaps somewhat similar reasons). The onos is just better in every way, at every job than every other alien lifeform (with the exception of fighting JP in large rooms). Being an onos really doesn't have a single drawback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "large room" must have some sort of rafter or ledge to perch in as well. Really, any room with a high ceiling and perch is what's needed. It's far from a counter though, as the onos can just head into a hallway.
Which is another point, the whole 'aliens only need 3 extractors' is such an incredible design flaw. Why exactly do aliens need less RTs to have a 'healthy' economy compared to marines? This makes no sense in the overall balance of things. If anything, aliens generally have it easier to hold extractors than marines. Fix this massive discrepancy and you'll see marines will have a noticeable easier time competing past the early game. (Not to mention it will also prolong the early game, which is more fun for everyone)
Did you play the game? When aliens only have 3 RT's, they not gonna make it. Also lerks/ fades and onos costs resources you know, and only with 3 you can't buy thm within 3 hours. Also when aliens got 3, the marines got the rest and will comm in with exo's wihtin minutes...
game is balanced around 6v6 where it's not that easy to hold that many rts so not all are built at all times like it is in 10v10.
Nah, its just the performance that is "balanced" around 6 vs 6 :>.
I'd like to take this opportunity to guarantee to you that I absolutely most certainly definitely haven't been working very hard to improve the way Refinery both performs and plays. Any updates to the map that you may see in the near future are most likely an illusion caused by swamp gas, or light bouncing off a strut.
<img src="http://wileybtb.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/mib-memory-eraser.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
YES! Currently, 1 good lurk can kill a LOT of marines and is a total beyotch to kill as only main body reg's hits.
On top of that, marine weapons have almost zero stopping power. As an alien, there is no weapon that I go "Oh $#!t, RUN!" when I see it equipped, and I think there really needs to be something that aliens get a little hesitant to attack 1v1 or 1v2.
I feel like shotgun needs a slight damage buff (or double barrel!), or maybe an additional reasearchable "ammo" upgrade (armor piercing, etc). As is, if I'm lucky enough to hit, I am almost certani it won't kill them before they kill me.
A skulk can kill an EXO in 7 seconds. A weapons 3 LMG marine would need 32 seconds and 5 clips to kill an Onos. Both of them would die in second, so why is it that you never see a marine solo killing an Onos, but skulks take out EXOs all the time? That's deadliness.
Anyway, the craptastic nature of the EXO is an issue for another thread since I could write an essay on how terribad it is. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With regards to this, my thoughts are that even though NS1 Onos had more Carapace (realistically based on how Armor mitigates damage), it was much more "soloable" as a W3 LMG/SG/HMG Marine. My belief in this category is that the shortcoming comes from immobile JPs (I mean really they feel like they weigh more than an EXO) and the distinct lack of an additional fully automatic weapon (such as the HMG). I was in favor of adding an upgraded "magazine" to the Rifle, perhaps giving it 25 more rounds per clip with a 2-CC Arms/Adv. Armory upgrade.
Forgive me it has been a long while since I have played a game of NS1, but if memory serves; a single JP/HMG/SGer was INCREDIBLY effective at countering an Onos. Maps were also more open and multi-tiered to further the advantage of a JP (thinking catwalks in ns_caged).
Now I consider myself to be a skilled player and I cannot even dent a NS2 Onos with a JP/Shotgun, because that is your only direct damage choice to dissuade an Onos from hitting your power. NS2 JPs are too sluggish to evade, gore has far too long of a range (or it's simply the lag compensation), and a SG is just not fast enough to take down an Onos. I understand that Marines are meant to play as a team to take down more than one Onos (and even a single one), but if this is the case perhaps we need to talk about limiting the amount of EXO/Onos per team?
uhu, can we please talk about things that make sense? So 1 skulk take out exo's all the time? In the games I play it will happen sometimes that 1 skulk can take out an exo, but really not all the time. And when it happen it's a noob in an exosuit. Why people always talk about things that are happen always when this is not?
If we could turn viewmodels off you'd probably see a lot less exos dying.
Good lord no, when I shotgun hits it's stupidly deadly the last thing it needs is a damage buff. However a change in it's spread is needed, it seems to rely way too much on luck not skill to hit something with the shotgun. At just about any range you can end up with anything from 20 to 200 damage. If it was much more reliable with good aim at close range (and to balance worse at long range) it would be much better.
<!--quoteo(post=2046234:date=Dec 15 2012, 05:10 PM:name=Kazter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kazter @ Dec 15 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the distinct lack of an additional fully automatic weapon (such as the HMG). I was in favor of adding an upgraded "magazine" to the Rifle, perhaps giving it 25 more rounds per clip with a 2-CC Arms/Adv. Armory upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd really like to see this. It would be a good mid game buff for the LMG that would make it more effective. My only worry is while it would be a good counter for mid game onos (which is badly needed) it might be too powerful against everything else.
It usually doesn't happen if the exo is escorted. A lone exo though can be severely damaged by a skulk ambush.
The big problem is that the guns on a dual mini require seem to require a certain period without any sharp aim corrections before they will spin up. You can test this in explore mode, or just fooling around in a safe base. Sharp aim corrections (as you would make to track a flailing skulk) will cause your guns to spin down. If you don't realize this, or simply forget, a skulk can ruin your day as you panic and desperately try to kill it with your guns making stupid "Wrrrrrr.....Wrrrrrr.....Wrrrr...." noises and not actually firing.
I don't think it's an intended feature, as it's not very consistent. The spinup animation is triggered repeatedly as if you were madly clicking the mouse buttons. I don't know if it's a bug everyone has or if it's related to specific drivers/hardware. It may even be a performance related problem.
It's actually one area where the 50 res exo has an advantage, because the fist doesn't do that.
This is why I love the 1x EXO, I can't hit a Skulk to save my life in a 2x EXO, but a Fist...ahh yes, I will punch the crap out of you if you try getting close to me.
I feel like shotgun needs a slight damage buff (or double barrel!), or maybe an additional reasearchable "ammo" upgrade (armor piercing, etc). As is, if I'm lucky enough to hit, I am almost certani it won't kill them before they kill me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
Please, try that with a LMG marine. Oh wait, you can't since you need 5 weapon 3 LMG clips and 32 seconds to solo kill ONE Onos, you'd never have enough ammo to kill two, let alone one.
The EXO is garbage. I will only play it myself in rare situations, and even then only in a defensive role. It's just a waste of res right now. As an Onos I can run right up to an EXO *while he is firing both guns* and kill him before he can kill me. Sometimes I feel guilty about it since it seems so unfair that the poor guy doesn't even have a hope to defend himself. Then I charge away, heal up, and repeat it.
However, the EXO is just a small part of the much bigger alien/marine imbalance that the developers are working on.
My only concern is that after the last 'balance' patch things have gotten worse. Looking at ~1900 games it is still 2/3rds win rate for aliens.
The only other concern I have about the game right now, is that the balance changes necessary will likely create a wave of QQ by those who liked the OP aliens. The devs will have to swing the nerfbat, and when it hits the result isn't going to be pretty.
So because one thing (the Onos) is unbalanced, rather buff another weapon to unbalance it against everything but the Onos?
They should rather add a drawback to the Onos rather than doing that.
The Exo has the drawback of low mobility, inability to use phase gates or getting beaconed, inability of getting direct support from Commanders (except for MACs) and the inability to repair stuff. There are tons of reasons for not having the entire team go Exo.
But there is no reason for not having the entire alien team go Onos (except maybe for 1-2 Gorges or Lerks to support, though they are not really needed if you really have 7+ Onos on your team to just steamroll the enemy across the entire map and the khammander has some Crag nests set up), because there is nothing really that an Onos does worse than a Skulk or other lifeforms.
What midgame Onos? If aliens get to 75 PRes(or three hives) before the marines have the means to stop an Onos, that means they were already winning by a lot.