<!--quoteo(post=2045323:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:58 AM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Dec 14 2012, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes but you are pulling 1000 games from a subsection of the player base. Rather than everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're trying to play semantic games and I'm not buying it. Like I said, if it was a 100 games you'd have a point. Heck, if I take ns2stats and select all for EVERYTHING, meaning every server and every build, you still end up with 63% alien wins.
You can't spin this. Polls are made using small samples to represent the larger whole. Studies have shown that poll accuracy does not increase linearly with the number of respondents polled. In actually fact accuracy only increases marginally the higher you go. It's the first 1000 that paint the picture, and adding another 9000 to that 1000 has shown no appreciable benefit.
We're talking a 1000 games. It doesn't matter where those games are from since the people who play on those servers are random. Everyone has the same access to those servers in the server list. Even the developers have acknowledged that aliens are winning more often. If they can accept it, why can't you?
The skill is really a big contributor - New players favour marines out of familiarity. I think a new weapon that would be powerful enough to help new players but weak enough to not be a real advantage in competitive games could assist. The marines feel like they're missing something since the removal of the HMG from NS1 - they do have mini guns on Exo's now but they're very late game.
Just a general suggestion and probably not much useful input :)
Something I have noticed and have quietly been keeping to myself are;
In general, NS2 players flock to play Aliens (again, I am generalizing and disregarding skill level here). Whereas in NS1 this was the exact opposite. Everyone humped the Marine Portal or smashed F1 all day long, because...shooty things!
Also, what is with the lack of people playing Commander these days? I do it when no one else will (I make a much better Alien/Marine than a Commander), but that's exactly my point. In NS1, it was always a mad dash for the Com Chair, because EVERYONE wanted to do it. What happened in the transition from NS1 to NS2 that made Commanding such an abhorrent job. To put it in perspective, my friend whom hates FPS games (and is bad at them), was very interested in NS2 solely for the Commanding aspect as he is a huge fan of the RTS genre. How do we convince people like him to get into NS2? I've let him play on my machine and coached him through some things, but he still doesn't seem interested.
I feel like in NS1 we had a lot of the Counter-Strike crossover where people learned about NS1 by accident and ended up sticking with it for the fast-paced, competitive gameplay. Somehow I feel that element has been lost in NS2. The beauty of these players were (while yes they humped Marine Portal) they were actually decent from the get go, because...Counter-Strike. The only element they had to get used to were the RTS elements and "listening" to someone. In NS2, we don't have these players anymore and in my opinion results in an even less-skilled early Marine player-base.
My answer...get more CS:S/GO players into NS2 :D. All nostalgia aside, I feel like a lot of the issues are related to poor hit registration, jerky animations, and unskilled Marines. Once these issues fall in line, we will shortly be seeing posts about Marines being overpowered.
<!--quoteo(post=2045323:date=Dec 13 2012, 10:58 PM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Dec 13 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes but you are pulling 1000 games from a subsection of the player base. Rather than everyone. It's like going out on the street, asking the first 1000 people you see in your local city if they think the world will end on Dec 21st.
You are polling a set of users from a minority populous that does not give an overall shared view. I admit that there is some trend in that small subsector of stats you are polling, but you have to add some qualifiers to your stats. You are only getting a small number of the playerbase that is repeat players. If you have a game that the aliens win, and then those same players play 2 more games in a row, you already have some skewed results there as the same subset of players are potentially doing the same tactics thinking they did it wrong before and need to repeat themselves.
Much akin to the 5 games I played that won, because the aliens repeatadly failed to break our system, because they hunted solo and not as a group.
I would love to use ns2stats as a bible for reality, but it is only a base guide of a small portion of the overall playerbase.
As stated you had 1000 games on 233, from what I can tell in the time since 233 has been out... ns2stats has less than 10% of the potential playerbase recorded playing. So you are showing about 10 games per player... at rough estimates.
I'm not trolling, I'm not derailing, I'm trying to draw the fact the stats you are pulling from are not widespread enough to get the full community feel. There are stats from combat mod in there... heck one of the monash servers had a test 64 player combat game... It ran fantastic even at 40-50 connect players. But that's a couple of games, run in combat mode, that will blow your stats wide and wrong, esp with playercount of valid standard gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra has confirmed that NS2 stats in the past has always fairly closely echoed the comprehensive stat gatherer that they use. It's a FAIRLY random sample, as very few people join an NS2 server specifically because it has NS2 stats, and the sample size is massive in comparison to the global community population of NS2 players. Taking a sample of 10% (and I'm fairly sure the sample is actually closer to 25%) of a community is a pretty solid sample size.
you should not include mineshaft or refinery into the stats...those maps are so broken marines RARELY win.
I prefer to play summit, veil, docking and tram.
what I see is that khamms support their team alot more now. because there is no tresdump in onos eggs anymore. whips shifts crags all over the places.
I srsly do not know why, but I feel that aliens are winning more often, too
edit: there once was a "poll" regarding Europe...they asked 1000 people in one city per country. I think it was about their opinion about the EU so they asked maybe 10k ppl...representing hundreds of million. make your mind up =)
<!--quoteo(post=2045323:date=Dec 14 2012, 04:58 AM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Dec 14 2012, 04:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes but you are pulling 1000 games from a subsection of the player base. Rather than everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Statistics are obviously not your strong suit.
1000 games pulled at random (which is essentially what ns2stats.org is) would realistically represent the square of their game count (1 million) to a reasonable amount of accuracy.
The fact that they are not all encompassing does not matter. If statistics had to be all encompassing we would never accomplish anything with them, because they would never be complete. A small subsection of the whole is all you need to get an idea of characteristics of the whole.
I think there's a definitive skill difference between aliens and marines. While both being possibly hard to master, but as a marine, it's clearly harder to survive. And marines crouching are slow as hell, compared to skulk that is sneaking. But very commonly I see stupid behavior from marines, such as spending res for an exo and then play the game like a god until a Skulk or two comes and ruins your day. Things like shifting the guns (instead of shooting with both) is nearly non-existant in pubs.
Also, I feel that aliens often can win because they get way too easily the upper hand early on and that often seems hard to recover from for humans. On the other hand, if humans manage actually to keep on their toes, they have dramatically better chances to win. But problem being, Aliens can push and defend a lot more effectively early on than humans.
But I've seen some quite stupid situations from humans who don't seem to know that there are places where a bunch of aliens can hide and take a larger group out from behind. Such as the vents near sub access, at the roof in that corridor. Humans take the amazing amount of effort to try and push there, yet nobody even tries to look at the roof and end their predators day quickly. And there are times when my team doesn't understand about such passages and becomes a cannon fodder to humans while I'm trying to explain that there is a ventilation system to take advantage of.
But clearly, aliens are a tad too good early on meanwhile players also have a lot to learn while playing the marines. And I think like 20% of my won games as alien are games where everyone just rushed to their base and trolled them.
<!--quoteo(post=2045372:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:14 AM:name=Functional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Functional @ Dec 14 2012, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there's a definitive skill difference between aliens and marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While there may be, it's not affecting the win/loss balance since the most experienced competitive players are seeing the same win/loss imbalance.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I feel that aliens often can win because they get way too easily the upper hand early on and that often seems hard to recover from for humans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would tend to agree to an extent, particularly with resource control. Sprint just doesn't cut it, and even sentries are a waste of money since I can take down a sentry nest with ease as a solo skulk. With no resources you suffer a slow and painful loss.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I've seen some quite stupid situations from humans<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would tend to agree here too, although marines tend to learn quickly after they get rolled once from an ambush.
I'd also like to add that you can actually play Alien quite effectively from the beginning without even trying humans. While with humans, it seems completely opposite. Sure, you will learn eventually that there are lots of places where Skulks can ambush a team, but they just don't seem to bother looking at these areas. But this is more of a pub issue really and don't really see it fair to balance upon others incompetence.
I think part of it is that Marines benefit from being very strategically aggressive - cutting the aliens off with a crossmap phase, building towards the aliens. Aliens generally benefit from building away from the marines, which comes more naturally to commanders.
Performance degradation has made marines increasingly more difficult to play. Target acquisition has become exponentially harder, looking around is more sluggish plus the animations being looked at are too. It's tougher to keep your laggy crosshair on that laggy ultra-fast moving target, than it is to home yourself in on a target using your arrow keys.
Also, do players with high pings (200+) seem to produce the 'kill you around a corner' effect more often? I see a lot of complaining about this on our server.
<!--quoteo(post=2045375:date=Dec 14 2012, 06:22 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 14 2012, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- hit registry is not good / netcode / interpolation
- camouflage openings absurdly strong in pub games
Pretty much. Even if rego is good, skulks can still be difficult to track due to netcode and other similar factors causing skulks to have laggy motions.
I think it stems from a few design decisions that were forced through but not thought through well enough. At least for the marines.
-PRES: As much fun it is to buy your own stuff, PRES took away the most valuable role the commander had in ns1: Supplying your team with weapons. He cannot reward players for doing what he wants them. In fact he is less of a commander, more of a supporter. I had a discussion on a server over whether the marines have to do what the commander says or if it is the other way around. Why would I sit in that chair, be the nanny of all my marines when no one gives an F about my orders? Solution: The marine commander needs some way to reward his marines for being good boys. The power of rewarding people gives authority which is what the commander is lacking nowadays. It also makes the commander job feel more important and meaningful. In another thread, I proposed a system where the commander could set his preferred contigent of weapons he would like his team to have. For example: Commander wants 2 exos so he pays for 50% of the cost for the first 2 marines who get one.
-Powernodes vs Cysts: While both are required to build in an area, powernodes are much more of a liability compared to cysts - a real achilles heel in every base. This is even more inforced by the alien's advantage in mobility in order to exploit these weakspots behind enemy lines. I wrote a thread about it here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125442" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125442</a>
-LMG rate of fire: The lmg fires ridiculosly fast, probably the fastest gun i've seen in any game including ns1. The upside of this fast fire rate is moar dmg, easier to kill oni and structures with it. The downside is that beginners or people with below avarage aim easily empty all their bullets in walls or their teammates when facing fast moving targets. Another downside is, if you get hit as an alien it often feels like getting instagibbed. I would like to see the rate of fire reduced slightly. Who knows it might even improve hit reg due to a little relieve in server load but more importatnly, it will keep the marines shooting longer, letting the noobs at least get in one lucky bullet.
<!--quoteo(post=2045433:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:02 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Dec 14 2012, 03:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-PRES: As much fun it is to buy your own stuff, PRES took away the most valuable role the commander had in ns1: Supplying your team with weapons. He cannot reward players for doing what he wants them. In fact he is less of a commander, more of a supporter. I had a discussion on a server over whether the marines have to do what the commander says or if it is the other way around. Why would I sit in that chair, be the nanny of all my marines when no one gives an F about my orders? Solution: The marine commander needs some way to reward his marines for being good boys. The power of rewarding people gives authority which is what the commander is lacking nowadays. It also makes the commander job feel more important and meaningful. In another thread, I proposed a system where the commander could set his preferred contigent of weapons he would like his team to have. For example: Commander wants 2 exos so he pays for 50% of the cost for the first 2 marines who get one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The commander can still drop equipment with Tres. I agree with you that it's a bit to expensive though.
I think pres is a good thing, but it needs more work for this mechanic to be perfected for marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Powernodes vs Cysts: While both are required to build in an area, powernodes are much more of a liability compared to cysts - a real achilles heel in every base. This is even more inforced by the alien's advantage in mobility in order to exploit these weakspots behind enemy lines. I wrote a thread about it here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125442" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125442</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Power nodes are broken in the current version of the game. They detract from the game in a dozen ways and add only a couple small things. I believe they are fixable, however, it's futile to compare them to cyst network. Those are just fundamentally different things. The game is asymmetric. The things one team has are usually not metaphors for things the other team has.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-LMG rate of fire: The lmg fires ridiculosly fast, probably the fastest gun i've seen in any game including ns1. The upside of this fast fire rate is moar dmg, easier to kill oni and structures with it. The downside is that beginners or people with below avarage aim easily empty all their bullets in walls or their teammates when facing fast moving targets. Another downside is, if you get hit as an alien it often feels like getting instagibbed. I would like to see the rate of fire reduced slightly. Who knows it might even improve hit reg due to a little relieve in server load but more importatnly, it will keep the marines shooting longer, letting the noobs at least get in one lucky bullet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just about every real life full automatic gun empties a clip in 3 seconds. The NS2 AR is the same fare. It just empties it's clip of 50 weaker rounds as opposed to the AK's clip of 30 more powerful rounds. This isn't really a problem, it's just the way the game works. If anything it makes it easier on newbs because they don't have to account for a recoil pattern.
I quick an easy balance fix. Less armour for Skulks initially with carapace adding armour up to the present level granted by carapace. This way early game Skulks are weaker but carapace gives them a boost up to the present level of carapace making that upgrade gain a slightly higher importance as at present until shotguns or weapons level 2 other options seem to give more of a boost to killing potential.
<!--quoteo(post=2045428:date=Dec 14 2012, 05:40 PM:name=Catfig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Catfig @ Dec 14 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Performance degradation has made marines increasingly more difficult to play. Target acquisition has become exponentially harder, looking around is more sluggish plus the animations being looked at are too. It's tougher to keep your laggy crosshair on that laggy ultra-fast moving target, than it is to home yourself in on a target using your arrow keys.
Also, do players with high pings (200+) seem to produce the 'kill you around a corner' effect more often? I see a lot of complaining about this on our server.
:D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the higher the latency (of either player) the worse this effect will be.
Making LMGs less accurate would help people with aiming. And stop the annoying LMG sniper rifle effect.
I don't play enough to actually comment on this subject, but anyway...
I think electrified res towers and improved turrets can be a solution. There's nothing wrong with fighting some base defences. There really isn't. As long as it takes cooperation and some skill to fight them. Skulks shouldn't run around the maps exerting map control. The Skulks should instead be required to escort a Gorge that can Bile Bomb the structures. This will slow down the Alien advance as well as free up Marines for offensive tasks.
As for turtling, simply add a new third Hive ability that practically nullify base defences. As ARC's does (or are supposed to do).
<!--quoteo(post=2045375:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:22 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 14 2012, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- hit registry is not good / netcode / interpolation
- camouflage openings absurdly strong in pub games
Since Daworm already nailed it on the second page...
All I really have to add are two things that have been said already:
Some bad map design...
Coupled with lots of noobs...
There may, or may not, be hit reg issues that extend beyond certain servers at certain times.
They're also working on Refinery, specifically, because of the far higher alien win rate. (Although a Marines team that 'rushes' Turbine still win's most times I've seen them legitimately try. It's just so <i>far</i>)
Just to point out, Veil is a left over from NS1 as well ergo wasn't really balanced for NS2 in the first place. Then Docking? It's a cluster f***.
That right there are two out of the four maps most servers will run. (Docking is fun to me in it's randomness, despite being a cluster f***.)
I think one of the big imbalances is the commanders. Alien commanders is massively easier than the marine commander. Marines can be doing fairly well but if the comm misses a rush on the obs (which is really easy in the middle of a hive rush given how crap notifications are) it can quickly turn a game around. Couple that with the fact that marine comm is placing buildings, researching, keeping an eye on the map, and assisting marines on the ground it's all just too much. Alien comm is so easy that most times if I go alien comm I actually get out the hive for minutes at a time while waiting for res to tick up. Making alien commander more necessary and harder (somehow?) would probably help balance.
The second big imbalance is how much easier it is for aliens to expand early game. I think just adding a few seconds to harvester and cyst build time would probably throw balance back in line a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=2045453:date=Dec 14 2012, 10:07 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Dec 14 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play enough to actually comment on this subject, but anyway...
I think electrified res towers and improved turrets can be a solution. There's nothing wrong with fighting some base defences. There really isn't. As long as it takes cooperation and some skill to fight them. Skulks shouldn't run around the maps exerting map control. The Skulks should instead be required to escort a Gorge that can Bile Bomb the structures. This will slow down the Alien advance as well as free up Marines for offensive tasks.
As for turtling, simply add a new third Hive ability that practically nullify base defences. As ARC's does (or are supposed to do).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just power up xenocide's damage vs structures and you have it right there lol.
As for Refinery vs Docking.
Refinery simply add a new element in the form of a blast door from the hive. To open it Aliens have to have infestation cover the door. This slows their ability to gain the easy dual resources at lava falls as they would have to wait for the infestation to take the door or use resources making cysts pop and replace them.
Docking wise it could be as simple and remove the broken window or changing it to have blast shutters down round the landing pad and lighting up removing the advantage the aliens get of being able to see into the enemy base from any point other than right exposed by the hole.
what people dont realize: noobs learn to play alien too. Strangly enough people seem to think playing alien is soo easy. But I tell you the alien winrate will increase even more as players learn to play lerk and fade. I mean, playing alien properly requires certain skill that is NS2 exclusive. Playing marine properly requires the same kind of skill as NF3 or counter strike + you have to realize that you have to work as a team.
So contrary to what most people here think, "learing" to play marines is mostly a single mental switch that you have to press and suddently you can use your "normal" FPS skill in NS2. Once that happened most people wont improve that much more because aiming(and thats the second of the 2 important marine skills) does not improve that much without real training.
But as Alien you will improve much longer. Even as a skulk you can improve ALOT in terms of movement, hiding places etc. Then there is the gorge who is generally weak but can cause a GG if used properly I wont talk about Lerk and Fade, its obvious that you can improve your play with these classes nearly indefinitely. Even with Onos there is a difference between a normal one and a very good one.
So what Im saying here is that "marine skil" is based on some simple relizations like "communicate" "dont be afraid of dying for the team" "listen to the commander" "listen to the commander" "listen to the commander" plus aiming. After you realized these fundamental marine rules you will mainly improve on aiming and decision making. But as normally the comm should make the most important decisions for the team that is not so important. Aliens on the other hand greatly benefit from better decisionmaking as well as from improved individual skill with higher life forms.
@ Swiftspear: I agree that pres is a good thing. I am not calling for the removal of pres, I am calling for a mechaninc/tweak to make the commander reward his players in some way. By rewarding good behaviour, you can also teach newbies the right way how to play. This was a major part of learning ns1. You build no rt, you get no shotgun.
Cysts and powernodes are essentially the same thing. They enable you to build around them, like basic infrastructure. Yes it is not exactly the same but they serve the same main purpose. This is as much assymetric as ak47 and colt are in counterstrike.
As for the LMG, you said it yourself: 50 bullets in 3 sec vs 30 bullets in 3 sec is almost twice as fast. I think a slight tweak in rate of fire would have quite an impact. I see marines wasting tons of bullets on dead skulks. Slowing down rate of fire a tiny bit would at least reduce some wasted bullets due to overkill.
@gnoarch I agree. I might add, if it takes less effort to gain x power one side than on other this is also a balance issue. Penny Arcade had a great video about this issue (was also posted here on the forum): <a href="http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill" target="_blank">http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill</a>
Hmm, its interesting to really thing about it, as a marine the major thing that affects me is fps/hit reg, when the planets align, i can take down 2 skulks early on by myself with no upgrades on both sides, consistently.
The thought that i've been playing around with in my head is if aliens had some version of focus on by default, it was my prefered "upgrade?" in ns1 not necessarely because it made me more effective, but just because it changed the play style, it was hop in get a bite, hop out.
Now its like, Hey... I just met you, and this is crazy cause you're shooting at me, but lets dance maybe!?
Round and round, feels almost like we're holding hands.
Maybe increased dmg but slower attack rate for each new hive ? +10% / -10% ?
<!--quoteo(post=2045483:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 14 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just power up xenocide's damage vs structures and you have it right there lol.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks are so mobile that making Xenocide that powerful would prevent any kind of Marine comeback (as rare as they already are). I'm more for a mutated Xenocide Drifter, fat and cumbersome and easy to intercept, only really viable against turtling Marines that never leave base.
<!--quoteo(post=2045523:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:50 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Dec 14 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are so mobile that making Xenocide that powerful would prevent any kind of Marine comeback (as rare as they already are). I'm more for a mutated Xenocide Drifter, fat and cumbersome and easy to intercept, only really viable against turtling Marines that never leave base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno if done right I think it could be a good balance. I don't mean giving 4 skulks with Xenocide the same power as 4 Arcs but it cold work giving them say 1/2 the strength of an Arc as they would do less damage than an Arc but be harder to intercept. At 3 hives though most commanders are dropping Onos eggs and giving lurks a protection cloud thing anyway. Xeno might give an alternative plan to the Onos one being used to a slow win.
<!--quoteo(post=2045417:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:02 AM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Dec 14 2012, 03:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think part of it is that Marines benefit from being very strategically aggressive - cutting the aliens off with a crossmap phase, building towards the aliens. Aliens generally benefit from building away from the marines, which comes more naturally to commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point.
<!--quoteo(post=2045339:date=Dec 13 2012, 11:28 PM:name=Kazter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kazter @ Dec 13 2012, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel like in NS1 we had a lot of the Counter-Strike crossover where people learned about NS1 by accident and ended up sticking with it for the fast-paced, competitive gameplay. Somehow I feel that element has been lost in NS2. The beauty of these players were (while yes they humped Marine Portal) they were actually decent from the get go, because...Counter-Strike. The only element they had to get used to were the RTS elements and "listening" to someone. In NS2, we don't have these players anymore and in my opinion results in an even less-skilled early Marine player-base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the Modern FPS games are not like the FPS games of yore. COD and it's ilk can't hold a candle to the game play of older FPS games (Team Fortress and all it's clones, CS, DOD). People coming to NS2 now have cut their teeth on the Modern Military Shooter <i>du jour</i>. NS2 is a lot closer to the older style FPS game. I also feel many people playing today are much sorer losers than when NS1 was running at full capacity.
Comments
You can't spin this. Polls are made using small samples to represent the larger whole. Studies have shown that poll accuracy does not increase linearly with the number of respondents polled. In actually fact accuracy only increases marginally the higher you go. It's the first 1000 that paint the picture, and adding another 9000 to that 1000 has shown no appreciable benefit.
We're talking a 1000 games. It doesn't matter where those games are from since the people who play on those servers are random. Everyone has the same access to those servers in the server list. Even the developers have acknowledged that aliens are winning more often. If they can accept it, why can't you?
I think a new weapon that would be powerful enough to help new players but weak enough to not be a real advantage in competitive games could assist.
The marines feel like they're missing something since the removal of the HMG from NS1 - they do have mini guns on Exo's now but they're very late game.
Just a general suggestion and probably not much useful input :)
In general, NS2 players flock to play Aliens (again, I am generalizing and disregarding skill level here). Whereas in NS1 this was the exact opposite. Everyone humped the Marine Portal or smashed F1 all day long, because...shooty things!
Also, what is with the lack of people playing Commander these days? I do it when no one else will (I make a much better Alien/Marine than a Commander), but that's exactly my point. In NS1, it was always a mad dash for the Com Chair, because EVERYONE wanted to do it. What happened in the transition from NS1 to NS2 that made Commanding such an abhorrent job. To put it in perspective, my friend whom hates FPS games (and is bad at them), was very interested in NS2 solely for the Commanding aspect as he is a huge fan of the RTS genre. How do we convince people like him to get into NS2? I've let him play on my machine and coached him through some things, but he still doesn't seem interested.
I feel like in NS1 we had a lot of the Counter-Strike crossover where people learned about NS1 by accident and ended up sticking with it for the fast-paced, competitive gameplay. Somehow I feel that element has been lost in NS2. The beauty of these players were (while yes they humped Marine Portal) they were actually decent from the get go, because...Counter-Strike. The only element they had to get used to were the RTS elements and "listening" to someone. In NS2, we don't have these players anymore and in my opinion results in an even less-skilled early Marine player-base.
My answer...get more CS:S/GO players into NS2 :D. All nostalgia aside, I feel like a lot of the issues are related to poor hit registration, jerky animations, and unskilled Marines. Once these issues fall in line, we will shortly be seeing posts about Marines being overpowered.
It's like going out on the street, asking the first 1000 people you see in your local city if they think the world will end on Dec 21st.
You are polling a set of users from a minority populous that does not give an overall shared view. I admit that there is some trend in that small subsector of stats you are polling, but you have to add some qualifiers to your stats. You are only getting a small number of the playerbase that is repeat players. If you have a game that the aliens win, and then those same players play 2 more games in a row, you already have some skewed results there as the same subset of players are potentially doing the same tactics thinking they did it wrong before and need to repeat themselves.
Much akin to the 5 games I played that won, because the aliens repeatadly failed to break our system, because they hunted solo and not as a group.
I would love to use ns2stats as a bible for reality, but it is only a base guide of a small portion of the overall playerbase.
As stated you had 1000 games on 233, from what I can tell in the time since 233 has been out... ns2stats has less than 10% of the potential playerbase recorded playing. So you are showing about 10 games per player... at rough estimates.
I'm not trolling, I'm not derailing, I'm trying to draw the fact the stats you are pulling from are not widespread enough to get the full community feel.
There are stats from combat mod in there... heck one of the monash servers had a test 64 player combat game... It ran fantastic even at 40-50 connect players. But that's a couple of games, run in combat mode, that will blow your stats wide and wrong, esp with playercount of valid standard gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra has confirmed that NS2 stats in the past has always fairly closely echoed the comprehensive stat gatherer that they use. It's a FAIRLY random sample, as very few people join an NS2 server specifically because it has NS2 stats, and the sample size is massive in comparison to the global community population of NS2 players. Taking a sample of 10% (and I'm fairly sure the sample is actually closer to 25%) of a community is a pretty solid sample size.
I prefer to play summit, veil, docking and tram.
what I see is that khamms support their team alot more now. because there is no tresdump in onos eggs anymore.
whips shifts crags all over the places.
I srsly do not know why, but I feel that aliens are winning more often, too
edit:
there once was a "poll" regarding Europe...they asked 1000 people in one city per country.
I think it was about their opinion about the EU
so they asked maybe 10k ppl...representing hundreds of million.
make your mind up =)
Statistics are obviously not your strong suit.
1000 games pulled at random (which is essentially what ns2stats.org is) would realistically represent the square of their game count (1 million) to a reasonable amount of accuracy.
The fact that they are not all encompassing does not matter. If statistics had to be all encompassing we would never accomplish anything with them, because they would never be complete. A small subsection of the whole is all you need to get an idea of characteristics of the whole.
Also, I feel that aliens often can win because they get way too easily the upper hand early on and that often seems hard to recover from for humans. On the other hand, if humans manage actually to keep on their toes, they have dramatically better chances to win. But problem being, Aliens can push and defend a lot more effectively early on than humans.
But I've seen some quite stupid situations from humans who don't seem to know that there are places where a bunch of aliens can hide and take a larger group out from behind. Such as the vents near sub access, at the roof in that corridor. Humans take the amazing amount of effort to try and push there, yet nobody even tries to look at the roof and end their predators day quickly. And there are times when my team doesn't understand about such passages and becomes a cannon fodder to humans while I'm trying to explain that there is a ventilation system to take advantage of.
But clearly, aliens are a tad too good early on meanwhile players also have a lot to learn while playing the marines. And I think like 20% of my won games as alien are games where everyone just rushed to their base and trolled them.
- camouflage openings absurdly strong in pub games
- performance / optimization
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I feel that aliens often can win because they get way too easily the upper hand early on and that often seems hard to recover from for humans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would tend to agree to an extent, particularly with resource control. Sprint just doesn't cut it, and even sentries are a waste of money since I can take down a sentry nest with ease as a solo skulk. With no resources you suffer a slow and painful loss.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I've seen some quite stupid situations from humans<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would tend to agree here too, although marines tend to learn quickly after they get rolled once from an ambush.
Also, do players with high pings (200+) seem to produce the 'kill you around a corner' effect more often? I see a lot of complaining about this on our server.
:D
- camouflage openings absurdly strong in pub games
- performance / optimization<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much. Even if rego is good, skulks can still be difficult to track due to netcode and other similar factors causing skulks to have laggy motions.
-PRES: As much fun it is to buy your own stuff, PRES took away the most valuable role the commander had in ns1: Supplying your team with weapons. He cannot reward players for doing what he wants them. In fact he is less of a commander, more of a supporter. I had a discussion on a server over whether the marines have to do what the commander says or if it is the other way around. Why would I sit in that chair, be the nanny of all my marines when no one gives an F about my orders?
Solution: The marine commander needs some way to reward his marines for being good boys. The power of rewarding people gives authority which is what the commander is lacking nowadays. It also makes the commander job feel more important and meaningful.
In another thread, I proposed a system where the commander could set his preferred contigent of weapons he would like his team to have. For example: Commander wants 2 exos so he pays for 50% of the cost for the first 2 marines who get one.
-Powernodes vs Cysts: While both are required to build in an area, powernodes are much more of a liability compared to cysts - a real achilles heel in every base. This is even more inforced by the alien's advantage in mobility in order to exploit these weakspots behind enemy lines. I wrote a thread about it here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125442" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125442</a>
-LMG rate of fire: The lmg fires ridiculosly fast, probably the fastest gun i've seen in any game including ns1. The upside of this fast fire rate is moar dmg, easier to kill oni and structures with it. The downside is that beginners or people with below avarage aim easily empty all their bullets in walls or their teammates when facing fast moving targets. Another downside is, if you get hit as an alien it often feels like getting instagibbed. I would like to see the rate of fire reduced slightly. Who knows it might even improve hit reg due to a little relieve in server load but more importatnly, it will keep the marines shooting longer, letting the noobs at least get in one lucky bullet.
Solution: The marine commander needs some way to reward his marines for being good boys. The power of rewarding people gives authority which is what the commander is lacking nowadays. It also makes the commander job feel more important and meaningful.
In another thread, I proposed a system where the commander could set his preferred contigent of weapons he would like his team to have. For example: Commander wants 2 exos so he pays for 50% of the cost for the first 2 marines who get one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The commander can still drop equipment with Tres. I agree with you that it's a bit to expensive though.
I think pres is a good thing, but it needs more work for this mechanic to be perfected for marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Powernodes vs Cysts: While both are required to build in an area, powernodes are much more of a liability compared to cysts - a real achilles heel in every base. This is even more inforced by the alien's advantage in mobility in order to exploit these weakspots behind enemy lines. I wrote a thread about it here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125442" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125442</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Power nodes are broken in the current version of the game. They detract from the game in a dozen ways and add only a couple small things. I believe they are fixable, however, it's futile to compare them to cyst network. Those are just fundamentally different things. The game is asymmetric. The things one team has are usually not metaphors for things the other team has.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-LMG rate of fire: The lmg fires ridiculosly fast, probably the fastest gun i've seen in any game including ns1. The upside of this fast fire rate is moar dmg, easier to kill oni and structures with it. The downside is that beginners or people with below avarage aim easily empty all their bullets in walls or their teammates when facing fast moving targets. Another downside is, if you get hit as an alien it often feels like getting instagibbed. I would like to see the rate of fire reduced slightly. Who knows it might even improve hit reg due to a little relieve in server load but more importatnly, it will keep the marines shooting longer, letting the noobs at least get in one lucky bullet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just about every real life full automatic gun empties a clip in 3 seconds. The NS2 AR is the same fare. It just empties it's clip of 50 weaker rounds as opposed to the AK's clip of 30 more powerful rounds. This isn't really a problem, it's just the way the game works. If anything it makes it easier on newbs because they don't have to account for a recoil pattern.
This way early game Skulks are weaker but carapace gives them a boost up to the present level of carapace making that upgrade gain a slightly higher importance as at present until shotguns or weapons level 2 other options seem to give more of a boost to killing potential.
Also, do players with high pings (200+) seem to produce the 'kill you around a corner' effect more often? I see a lot of complaining about this on our server.
:D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the higher the latency (of either player) the worse this effect will be.
Making LMGs less accurate would help people with aiming. And stop the annoying LMG sniper rifle effect.
I think electrified res towers and improved turrets can be a solution. There's nothing wrong with fighting some base defences. There really isn't. As long as it takes cooperation and some skill to fight them. Skulks shouldn't run around the maps exerting map control. The Skulks should instead be required to escort a Gorge that can Bile Bomb the structures. This will slow down the Alien advance as well as free up Marines for offensive tasks.
As for turtling, simply add a new third Hive ability that practically nullify base defences. As ARC's does (or are supposed to do).
- camouflage openings absurdly strong in pub games
- performance / optimization<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Performance is worse now for me than it was at the end of beta.
All I really have to add are two things that have been said already:
Some bad map design...
Coupled with lots of noobs...
There may, or may not, be hit reg issues that extend beyond certain servers at certain times.
They're also working on Refinery, specifically, because of the far higher alien win rate. (Although a Marines team that 'rushes' Turbine still win's most times I've seen them legitimately try. It's just so <i>far</i>)
Just to point out, Veil is a left over from NS1 as well ergo wasn't really balanced for NS2 in the first place. Then Docking? It's a cluster f***.
That right there are two out of the four maps most servers will run. (Docking is fun to me in it's randomness, despite being a cluster f***.)
The second big imbalance is how much easier it is for aliens to expand early game. I think just adding a few seconds to harvester and cyst build time would probably throw balance back in line a bit.
I think electrified res towers and improved turrets can be a solution. There's nothing wrong with fighting some base defences. There really isn't. As long as it takes cooperation and some skill to fight them. Skulks shouldn't run around the maps exerting map control. The Skulks should instead be required to escort a Gorge that can Bile Bomb the structures. This will slow down the Alien advance as well as free up Marines for offensive tasks.
As for turtling, simply add a new third Hive ability that practically nullify base defences. As ARC's does (or are supposed to do).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just power up xenocide's damage vs structures and you have it right there lol.
As for Refinery vs Docking.
Refinery simply add a new element in the form of a blast door from the hive. To open it Aliens have to have infestation cover the door. This slows their ability to gain the easy dual resources at lava falls as they would have to wait for the infestation to take the door or use resources making cysts pop and replace them.
Docking wise it could be as simple and remove the broken window or changing it to have blast shutters down round the landing pad and lighting up removing the advantage the aliens get of being able to see into the enemy base from any point other than right exposed by the hole.
Strangly enough people seem to think playing alien is soo easy. But I tell you the alien winrate will increase even more as players learn to play lerk and fade.
I mean, playing alien properly requires certain skill that is NS2 exclusive.
Playing marine properly requires the same kind of skill as NF3 or counter strike + you have to realize that you have to work as a team.
So contrary to what most people here think, "learing" to play marines is mostly a single mental switch that you have to press and suddently you can use your "normal" FPS skill in NS2. Once that happened most people wont improve that much more because aiming(and thats the second of the 2 important marine skills) does not improve that much without real training.
But as Alien you will improve much longer. Even as a skulk you can improve ALOT in terms of movement, hiding places etc. Then there is the gorge who is generally weak but can cause a GG if used properly
I wont talk about Lerk and Fade, its obvious that you can improve your play with these classes nearly indefinitely.
Even with Onos there is a difference between a normal one and a very good one.
So what Im saying here is that "marine skil" is based on some simple relizations like "communicate" "dont be afraid of dying for the team" "listen to the commander" "listen to the commander" "listen to the commander" plus aiming. After you realized these fundamental marine rules you will mainly improve on aiming and decision making.
But as normally the comm should make the most important decisions for the team that is not so important.
Aliens on the other hand greatly benefit from better decisionmaking as well as from improved individual skill with higher life forms.
Cysts and powernodes are essentially the same thing. They enable you to build around them, like basic infrastructure. Yes it is not exactly the same but they serve the same main purpose. This is as much assymetric as ak47 and colt are in counterstrike.
As for the LMG, you said it yourself: 50 bullets in 3 sec vs 30 bullets in 3 sec is almost twice as fast. I think a slight tweak in rate of fire would have quite an impact. I see marines wasting tons of bullets on dead skulks. Slowing down rate of fire a tiny bit would at least reduce some wasted bullets due to overkill.
@gnoarch
I agree. I might add, if it takes less effort to gain x power one side than on other this is also a balance issue. Penny Arcade had a great video about this issue (was also posted here on the forum): <a href="http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill" target="_blank">http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill</a>
Edit: omfg my spelling.
The thought that i've been playing around with in my head is if aliens had some version of focus on by default, it was my prefered "upgrade?" in ns1 not necessarely because it made me more effective, but just because it changed the play style, it was hop in get a bite, hop out.
Now its like, Hey... I just met you, and this is crazy cause you're shooting at me, but lets dance maybe!?
Round and round, feels almost like we're holding hands.
Maybe increased dmg but slower attack rate for each new hive ? +10% / -10% ?
Skulks are so mobile that making Xenocide that powerful would prevent any kind of Marine comeback (as rare as they already are). I'm more for a mutated Xenocide Drifter, fat and cumbersome and easy to intercept, only really viable against turtling Marines that never leave base.
I dunno if done right I think it could be a good balance. I don't mean giving 4 skulks with Xenocide the same power as 4 Arcs but it cold work giving them say 1/2 the strength of an Arc as they would do less damage than an Arc but be harder to intercept. At 3 hives though most commanders are dropping Onos eggs and giving lurks a protection cloud thing anyway. Xeno might give an alternative plan to the Onos one being used to a slow win.
Good point.
Because the Modern FPS games are not like the FPS games of yore. COD and it's ilk can't hold a candle to the game play of older FPS games (Team Fortress and all it's clones, CS, DOD). People coming to NS2 now have cut their teeth on the Modern Military Shooter <i>du jour</i>. NS2 is a lot closer to the older style FPS game. I also feel many people playing today are much sorer losers than when NS1 was running at full capacity.