and the thing is, ive been seeing cloak 1st beeing used less and less and being beaten like this more often. Its clearly not OP because we arent seeing it being abused in clan matches and its getting defeated in pub games ... so i dont see the problem. Infact its such a breath of fresh air having a different strategy for once, its a shame all these idiots who cant learn to paly want to nerf it out of the game and go back to the same old boring shift hive first unless your team is so stacked you can afford to mess around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know its such a shame so many Alien commander haven't learned to play fully yet. Or a lot of those losses wouldn't have happened. Sure a bad team will lose going for it if they don't realise how powerful the tool is and just use it to try and hide better. However supplementing existing stealth and hiding ability and expanding it with stealth can let you do some pretty silly stuff and not get punished for it. Done right Stealth is very viable the issue is you need a good commander and a good team who knows how to really make the most of stealth to be able to walk right past Marines sometimes to create a way to ambush them from the back and front.
<!--quoteo(post=2046056:date=Dec 15 2012, 06:21 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 15 2012, 06:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know its such a shame so many Alien commander haven't learned to play fully yet. Or a lot of those losses wouldn't have happened. Sure a bad team will lose going for it if they don't realise how powerful the tool is and just use it to try and hide better. However supplementing existing stealth and hiding ability and expanding it with stealth can let you do some pretty silly stuff and not get punished for it. Done right Stealth is very viable the issue is you need a good commander and a good team who knows how to really make the most of stealth to be able to walk right past Marines sometimes to create a way to ambush them from the back and front.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welcome to the forums
btw ... people dont take Theorycrafters seriously around here.
<!--quoteo(post=2046062:date=Dec 15 2012, 05:39 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Dec 15 2012, 05:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welcome to the forums
btw ... people dont take Theorycrafters seriously around here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not trying to Theory craft and say there is not a super strategy here I get that the fun of the game is in the fact various approaches can and do work and pointing out the fact Camo is as effective with the right team as any other combo can be with a team that is capable of pulling it off. As I did actually have done on me
It's a ######ty pub gimmick that most marines commanders don't know how to deal with properly. If it does get nerfed, it should only be a very small one. It IS frustrating to play against, but frustrating doesn't equal OP. And usually it's only frustrating because your commander is clueless on how to counter it.
Here's an idea that isn't really a full counter. Why exactly is it that if you shine a light on an enemy that is camouflaged it doesn't cast a shadow? What is making light go through them? If you scan a room with a flashlight, any cloaked enemies should give off a shadow on the wall/floor/roof behind them. This isn't extreme, and allows a group of marines to find invisible aliens without scans.
<!--quoteo(post=2046056:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:21 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 15 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know its such a shame so many Alien commander haven't learned to play fully yet. Or a lot of those losses wouldn't have happened. Sure a bad team will lose going for it if they don't realise how powerful the tool is and just use it to try and hide better. However supplementing existing stealth and hiding ability and expanding it with stealth can let you do some pretty silly stuff and not get punished for it. Done right Stealth is very viable the issue is you need a good commander and a good team who knows how to really make the most of stealth to be able to walk right past Marines sometimes to create a way to ambush them from the back and front.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I honestly feel like it's the opposite. If you go camo first, you're betting the marine commander is bad enough to not counter it properly. If it's countered properly, it's much weaker than the other upgrade paths with teams of equal skill. If it's not countered properly, it's pretty hard to mess it up. If you envision competitive play between two teams of extremely equal skill level, and assume in all cases the commander knows exactly how to ideally counter camo, there is just no way to "outskill" the opposing team with shade upgrades no matter how high the skill level of both teams is. They are universally a less skill intensive upgrade path than those where your hand is shown, and so you just have to be mechanically perfect to play ideally. The real issue is there's just no way to "trick" the commander into not scanning you at just the wrong time, and good commanders get very very good at knowing the right time to scan.
Obviously having a more skilled team makes any build better, but I feel like shade upgrades are a signifignatly lower skill tech path than carapasc or celerity first. Of course there's a skill to using camo properly, but it's a more intellectual and less mechanically intense skill requirement, and I feel it's a lot easier to "master" for that reason.
Shade is just a bad first hive chamber in my opinion.
I am however starting to lean towards shade being a viable midgame (second hive) chamber. Especially for carapasc first builds. You don't really never NEED shift upgrades in a small server in NS2, and in the mid game the game gets chaotic enough for commanders to make mistakes with scanning more easily. The alien team also has more res for dropping shade chambers in inconvenient location. In fact, they pretty much guffah as they swim in res right now.... Regardless, I really feel the shade is generally an unsafe upgrade path. It relies too much on the other team failing to respond appropriately. It's kind of like the 6 pool of NS2. You're all in, and if the enemy gets the slightest whiff of something going wrong, and knows what to do about it, you've screwed yourself and transitioning out is going to be hell.
Why would you ever go cara first into shade second? God that is so awful.
If you're going shade, you go shade first when phase gates aren't up and scans are an impossible drain on the marine's economy. Their entire economy falls when they have to scan every room in order to not automatically lose.
It does kind of explain why you think camo is balanced, though.
<!--quoteo(post=2046151:date=Dec 15 2012, 04:44 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 15 2012, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would you ever go cara first into shade second? God that is so awful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed.
Not to mentiod that shade upgrades are very cheap ( chamber + upgrade = 15 res ). U can instantly get a quick upgrade + have enough res for 2 restowers in 1 minute.
<!--quoteo(post=2046151:date=Dec 15 2012, 06:44 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 15 2012, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would you ever go cara first into shade second? God that is so awful.
If you're going shade, you go shade first when phase gates aren't up and scans are an impossible drain on the marine's economy. Their entire economy falls when they have to scan every room in order to not automatically lose.
It does kind of explain why you think camo is balanced, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I went shade second about an hour or so ago in ns2_docking.
We were already dominating though (only reason I went shade), and it was just a means of getting up 2 hives right under their noses by placing shades in central access and north point (for cafe and departures respectively). Mind you this was against a marine team that was incompetent enough to accidentally shoot the camouflaged Cafeteria hive and still not realise it was being built.
You're right though, it doesn't make any sense getting shade 2nd against any slightly decent marine team. Shade either first (to establish early dominance) or last (because there's nothing else left). Especially if they have the 3rd hive location already locked down, there is no reason to get it at all. Better to buff your high-level classes with movement and defensive upgrades. Camo aint as good mid game when they have enough res to scan, and when it's more about taking back enemy territory rather than denying it (in which case most places you want to seige are equipped with an obs anyway).
I hate shade first, i hate it so much. I love playing gorge and camo or silence is basically like going no upgrade at all unless I want to be a slow weak ninja without bile. Like others have mentioned it isn't the best to go first for lerk either, and fade obviously has better tricks than camo.
I also hate camo because it forces marines to put obs everywhere, you know how hard it is to attack something when you're a glaring red dot on the map whenever you get near a base? And it makes vents a joke most of the time. And you get skulks slowly walking around the map, in a game that going slowly is not good at all.
And when do you struggle with camo the most? When you're a marine trying to ninja something? If marines are in groups camo isn't nearly as good especially if the com scans every now and then, plus a scan is pretty darn helpful for groups of marines even when camo isn't in the game.
I get camo is annoying, you get attacked and killed before you even have a chance to defend yourself, you literally never saw them coming. Almost like skulks with their face is in powernodes, or on RTs (I seriously love finding skulks like this, usually easy multiple kills), a lerk that is spiking something and dies literally before it can react when a marines pops into a doorway. Aliens are obviously the ones that have to be sneaky and moving all the time, but I guess one ability that gives them the sneaky jump on marines (when there is no obs around) is not allowed.
I don't see what the fuss is all about when it comes to Shade first. It's an all-in first hive that forces aliens to do significant economic damage to the marines less they fall behind in the tech race. It's not even that bad of a first hive if you get crag next as that makes your midgame units more viable and Onos not become a fragile glass cannon.
So who cares if its not that viable in competitive leagues. You don't see pro Zerg players going 6-pool-all-in all the time, yet they add it to the mix every now and then to devastating results. It's called metagaming if memory serves correctly. Since that kind of metagame doesn't really exist in pub play, well who cares?
You get diminishing results for being a one-trick-pony and the amount of alien comms going shade first is a great way for marine comms to get a feel for how to counter it.
<!--quoteo(post=2046127:date=Dec 15 2012, 10:26 AM:name=Ghosthree3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghosthree3 @ Dec 15 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's an idea that isn't really a full counter. Why exactly is it that if you shine a light on an enemy that is camouflaged it doesn't cast a shadow? What is making light go through them? If you scan a room with a flashlight, any cloaked enemies should give off a shadow on the wall/floor/roof behind them. This isn't extreme, and allows a group of marines to find invisible aliens without scans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only issue is I have most stuff off to be able to run it so while shadows might help people with better rigs it won't help others counter wise.
Again the issue with Camo is it really forces Marines hand into certain play style / tactics. It does force aliens too but not to such an extent as they can either use celerity to escape quicker or regen to recover quicker and hit and run along with shifts to spawn closer to the enemy or crags to heal up even faster. Marines don't get this option and clever Alien commander play with give you the resource advantage using shade hives as you can harass Marines RTs and force them to respond slower or die by having too few go in along with the cost of scans while Camo has a low entry cost and no real running costs unless you're using shades to counter scans with ink or large amounts of hallucinations but again you can still take their resources points easier to make up for it.
<!--quoteo(post=2046048:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:02 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Dec 15 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its clearly not OP because we arent seeing it being abused in clan matches<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just wanted to drop into this thread and say you can't compare pubs and 6v6 competitive matches at all.
Saying something isn't OP because comp players don't use it is wrong. In comp it's 5v5 on field compared to 7v7+ on field, the game generally plays completely differently. Both teams are hyper aggressive to the point where things like base rushing each others empty bases isn't that uncommon. Competitive games tend to have the team moving as a complete group as well, which is not how pubs play. In pubs groups usually consist of half your team at max. Most times though groups are 1-3 players in pubs.
In competitive play often times a good majority of the map will be ignored for a very long time. Where as in pub play alien khamm tends to cyst more than half the map in a few minutes of starting.
I find that people who try and compare pub play, which let's be honest is what all the discussions in this forum are about, to comp play don't know what they're talking about. They often also tend to have an elitist 'get on my level' attitude.
<!--quoteo(post=2046592:date=Dec 16 2012, 12:32 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Dec 16 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wanted to drop into this thread and say you can't compare pubs and 6v6 competitive matches at all.
Saying something isn't OP because comp players don't use it is wrong. In comp it's 5v5 on field compared to 7v7+ on field, the game generally plays completely differently. Both teams are hyper aggressive to the point where things like base rushing each others empty bases isn't that uncommon. Competitive games tend to have the team moving as a complete group as well, which is not how pubs play. In pubs groups usually consist of half your team at max. Most times though groups are 1-3 players in pubs.
In competitive play often times a good majority of the map will be ignored for a very long time. Where as in pub play alien khamm tends to cyst more than half the map in a few minutes of starting.
I find that people who try and compare pub play, which let's be honest is what all the discussions in this forum are about, to comp play don't know what they're talking about. They often also tend to have an elitist 'get on my level' attitude.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
look
as a mechanic its not OP
6 min ONOS drop was OP ... do i need to explain this further or do you get it ?
6 min ONOS drop was OP ... do i need to explain this further or do you get it ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
6 minute onos is OP... but camo, which allows skulks to be as effective as a fade and lerk, meaning no need to spend Pres, meaning onos avalanche of half the team, isn't OP?
Seriously, whether you think camo is OP or not, pretty much everything that can be said about the subject has been said. Nobody is adding anything of substance because there's nothing left to add apart from rephrasing points already made, circlejerking, theorycrafting, and making seemingly irrelevant anecdotes. The conversation is going in circles, and we currently have 4 active threads on the matter that don't need to be littering the forums.
I don't even care about camo anymore. Take it out of the game completely for all I care. Just put an end to these threads D: I'm sure the devs have seen and read it by now so already know where the community stands on this (divided).
<!--quoteo(post=2046620:date=Dec 16 2012, 02:12 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 16 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->WHY WON'T THESE THREADS DIE.
Seriously, whether you think camo is OP or not, pretty much everything that can be said about the subject has been said. Nobody is adding anything of substance because there's nothing left to add apart from rephrasing points already made, circlejerking, theorycrafting, and making seemingly irrelevant anecdotes. The conversation is going in circles, and we currently have 3 active threads on the matter that don't need to be littering the forums.
I don't even care about camo anymore. Take it out of the game completely for all I care. Just put an end to these threads D: I'm sure the devs have seen and read it by now so already know where the community stands on this (divided).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If more and more threads come about, there is a clear issue. If they just die, everyone thinks "oh that's okay". Voices get actions. Cowering away gets nothing done.
I don't even care you don't care, I care that those that care do care. See? Principle met.
<!--quoteo(post=2046622:date=Dec 16 2012, 08:14 AM:name=runner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (runner @ Dec 16 2012, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't even care you don't care, I care that those that care do care. See? Principle met.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't even care that you don't even care that I don't care. And don't care that you care that those who care do care :D
Point taken though. Although I would hope that they won't just 'forget' there is a problem just cause there are no active threads on it.
Maybe that's why paper fade hasn't been addressed yet. Perhaps it's time to make 4 seemingly-identical 'fades suck' threads.
<!--quoteo(post=2046627:date=Dec 16 2012, 01:26 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 16 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't even care that you don't even care that I don't care. And don't care that you care that those who care do care :D
Point taken though. Although I would hope that they won't just 'forget' there is a problem just cause there are no active threads on it.
Maybe that's why paper fade hasn't been addressed yet. Perhaps it's time to make 4 seemingly-identical 'fades suck' threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is there an issue with fades though ? Having never played before the present fade I have no idea. I've just been playing the fade as a rather strong hit and run creature. My only objection so far is he seems to have the damage out put only slightly better than a skulk due to his slow attacking speed (or it could just be I'm missing something like celerity giving attack speed or something)
Comments
and the thing is, ive been seeing cloak 1st beeing used less and less and being beaten like this more often. Its clearly not OP because we arent seeing it being abused in clan matches and its getting defeated in pub games ... so i dont see the problem. Infact its such a breath of fresh air having a different strategy for once, its a shame all these idiots who cant learn to paly want to nerf it out of the game and go back to the same old boring shift hive first unless your team is so stacked you can afford to mess around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know its such a shame so many Alien commander haven't learned to play fully yet. Or a lot of those losses wouldn't have happened. Sure a bad team will lose going for it if they don't realise how powerful the tool is and just use it to try and hide better. However supplementing existing stealth and hiding ability and expanding it with stealth can let you do some pretty silly stuff and not get punished for it. Done right Stealth is very viable the issue is you need a good commander and a good team who knows how to really make the most of stealth to be able to walk right past Marines sometimes to create a way to ambush them from the back and front.
Welcome to the forums
btw ... people dont take Theorycrafters seriously around here.
btw ... people dont take Theorycrafters seriously around here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not trying to Theory craft and say there is not a super strategy here I get that the fun of the game is in the fact various approaches can and do work and pointing out the fact Camo is as effective with the right team as any other combo can be with a team that is capable of pulling it off. As I did actually have done on me
It IS frustrating to play against, but frustrating doesn't equal OP. And usually it's only frustrating because your commander is clueless on how to counter it.
I honestly feel like it's the opposite. If you go camo first, you're betting the marine commander is bad enough to not counter it properly. If it's countered properly, it's much weaker than the other upgrade paths with teams of equal skill. If it's not countered properly, it's pretty hard to mess it up. If you envision competitive play between two teams of extremely equal skill level, and assume in all cases the commander knows exactly how to ideally counter camo, there is just no way to "outskill" the opposing team with shade upgrades no matter how high the skill level of both teams is. They are universally a less skill intensive upgrade path than those where your hand is shown, and so you just have to be mechanically perfect to play ideally. The real issue is there's just no way to "trick" the commander into not scanning you at just the wrong time, and good commanders get very very good at knowing the right time to scan.
Obviously having a more skilled team makes any build better, but I feel like shade upgrades are a signifignatly lower skill tech path than carapasc or celerity first. Of course there's a skill to using camo properly, but it's a more intellectual and less mechanically intense skill requirement, and I feel it's a lot easier to "master" for that reason.
Shade is just a bad first hive chamber in my opinion.
I am however starting to lean towards shade being a viable midgame (second hive) chamber. Especially for carapasc first builds. You don't really never NEED shift upgrades in a small server in NS2, and in the mid game the game gets chaotic enough for commanders to make mistakes with scanning more easily. The alien team also has more res for dropping shade chambers in inconvenient location. In fact, they pretty much guffah as they swim in res right now.... Regardless, I really feel the shade is generally an unsafe upgrade path. It relies too much on the other team failing to respond appropriately. It's kind of like the 6 pool of NS2. You're all in, and if the enemy gets the slightest whiff of something going wrong, and knows what to do about it, you've screwed yourself and transitioning out is going to be hell.
If you're going shade, you go shade first when phase gates aren't up and scans are an impossible drain on the marine's economy. Their entire economy falls when they have to scan every room in order to not automatically lose.
It does kind of explain why you think camo is balanced, though.
Indeed.
Not to mentiod that shade upgrades are very cheap ( chamber + upgrade = 15 res ). U can instantly get a quick upgrade + have enough res for 2 restowers in 1 minute.
If you're going shade, you go shade first when phase gates aren't up and scans are an impossible drain on the marine's economy. Their entire economy falls when they have to scan every room in order to not automatically lose.
It does kind of explain why you think camo is balanced, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I went shade second about an hour or so ago in ns2_docking.
We were already dominating though (only reason I went shade), and it was just a means of getting up 2 hives right under their noses by placing shades in central access and north point (for cafe and departures respectively). Mind you this was against a marine team that was incompetent enough to accidentally shoot the camouflaged Cafeteria hive and still not realise it was being built.
You're right though, it doesn't make any sense getting shade 2nd against any slightly decent marine team. Shade either first (to establish early dominance) or last (because there's nothing else left). Especially if they have the 3rd hive location already locked down, there is no reason to get it at all. Better to buff your high-level classes with movement and defensive upgrades. Camo aint as good mid game when they have enough res to scan, and when it's more about taking back enemy territory rather than denying it (in which case most places you want to seige are equipped with an obs anyway).
I also hate camo because it forces marines to put obs everywhere, you know how hard it is to attack something when you're a glaring red dot on the map whenever you get near a base? And it makes vents a joke most of the time. And you get skulks slowly walking around the map, in a game that going slowly is not good at all.
And when do you struggle with camo the most? When you're a marine trying to ninja something? If marines are in groups camo isn't nearly as good especially if the com scans every now and then, plus a scan is pretty darn helpful for groups of marines even when camo isn't in the game.
I get camo is annoying, you get attacked and killed before you even have a chance to defend yourself, you literally never saw them coming. Almost like skulks with their face is in powernodes, or on RTs (I seriously love finding skulks like this, usually easy multiple kills), a lerk that is spiking something and dies literally before it can react when a marines pops into a doorway. Aliens are obviously the ones that have to be sneaky and moving all the time, but I guess one ability that gives them the sneaky jump on marines (when there is no obs around) is not allowed.
So who cares if its not that viable in competitive leagues. You don't see pro Zerg players going 6-pool-all-in all the time, yet they add it to the mix every now and then to devastating results. It's called metagaming if memory serves correctly. Since that kind of metagame doesn't really exist in pub play, well who cares?
You get diminishing results for being a one-trick-pony and the amount of alien comms going shade first is a great way for marine comms to get a feel for how to counter it.
Only issue is I have most stuff off to be able to run it so while shadows might help people with better rigs it won't help others counter wise.
Again the issue with Camo is it really forces Marines hand into certain play style / tactics. It does force aliens too but not to such an extent as they can either use celerity to escape quicker or regen to recover quicker and hit and run along with shifts to spawn closer to the enemy or crags to heal up even faster. Marines don't get this option and clever Alien commander play with give you the resource advantage using shade hives as you can harass Marines RTs and force them to respond slower or die by having too few go in along with the cost of scans while Camo has a low entry cost and no real running costs unless you're using shades to counter scans with ink or large amounts of hallucinations but again you can still take their resources points easier to make up for it.
Just wanted to drop into this thread and say you can't compare pubs and 6v6 competitive matches at all.
Saying something isn't OP because comp players don't use it is wrong. In comp it's 5v5 on field compared to 7v7+ on field, the game generally plays completely differently. Both teams are hyper aggressive to the point where things like base rushing each others empty bases isn't that uncommon. Competitive games tend to have the team moving as a complete group as well, which is not how pubs play. In pubs groups usually consist of half your team at max. Most times though groups are 1-3 players in pubs.
In competitive play often times a good majority of the map will be ignored for a very long time. Where as in pub play alien khamm tends to cyst more than half the map in a few minutes of starting.
I find that people who try and compare pub play, which let's be honest is what all the discussions in this forum are about, to comp play don't know what they're talking about. They often also tend to have an elitist 'get on my level' attitude.
Saying something isn't OP because comp players don't use it is wrong. In comp it's 5v5 on field compared to 7v7+ on field, the game generally plays completely differently. Both teams are hyper aggressive to the point where things like base rushing each others empty bases isn't that uncommon. Competitive games tend to have the team moving as a complete group as well, which is not how pubs play. In pubs groups usually consist of half your team at max. Most times though groups are 1-3 players in pubs.
In competitive play often times a good majority of the map will be ignored for a very long time. Where as in pub play alien khamm tends to cyst more than half the map in a few minutes of starting.
I find that people who try and compare pub play, which let's be honest is what all the discussions in this forum are about, to comp play don't know what they're talking about. They often also tend to have an elitist 'get on my level' attitude.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
look
as a mechanic its not OP
6 min ONOS drop was OP ... do i need to explain this further or do you get it ?
as a mechanic its not OP
6 min ONOS drop was OP ... do i need to explain this further or do you get it ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
6 minute onos is OP... but camo, which allows skulks to be as effective as a fade and lerk, meaning no need to spend Pres, meaning onos avalanche of half the team, isn't OP?
Seriously, whether you think camo is OP or not, pretty much everything that can be said about the subject has been said. Nobody is adding anything of substance because there's nothing left to add apart from rephrasing points already made, circlejerking, theorycrafting, and making seemingly irrelevant anecdotes. The conversation is going in circles, and we currently have 4 active threads on the matter that don't need to be littering the forums.
I don't even care about camo anymore. Take it out of the game completely for all I care. Just put an end to these threads D: I'm sure the devs have seen and read it by now so already know where the community stands on this (divided).
Seriously, whether you think camo is OP or not, pretty much everything that can be said about the subject has been said. Nobody is adding anything of substance because there's nothing left to add apart from rephrasing points already made, circlejerking, theorycrafting, and making seemingly irrelevant anecdotes. The conversation is going in circles, and we currently have 3 active threads on the matter that don't need to be littering the forums.
I don't even care about camo anymore. Take it out of the game completely for all I care. Just put an end to these threads D: I'm sure the devs have seen and read it by now so already know where the community stands on this (divided).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If more and more threads come about, there is a clear issue. If they just die, everyone thinks "oh that's okay". Voices get actions. Cowering away gets nothing done.
I don't even care you don't care, I care that those that care do care. See? Principle met.
I don't even care that you don't even care that I don't care. And don't care that you care that those who care do care :D
Point taken though. Although I would hope that they won't just 'forget' there is a problem just cause there are no active threads on it.
Maybe that's why paper fade hasn't been addressed yet. Perhaps it's time to make 4 seemingly-identical 'fades suck' threads.
Point taken though. Although I would hope that they won't just 'forget' there is a problem just cause there are no active threads on it.
Maybe that's why paper fade hasn't been addressed yet. Perhaps it's time to make 4 seemingly-identical 'fades suck' threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there an issue with fades though ?
Having never played before the present fade I have no idea. I've just been playing the fade as a rather strong hit and run creature. My only objection so far is he seems to have the damage out put only slightly better than a skulk due to his slow attacking speed (or it could just be I'm missing something like celerity giving attack speed or something)
I'm willing to bet they've all been forgotten with. Gotta start somewhere though!