MAJOR GRIPE: Is the game that unwinnable once it starts going bad?
MrChoke
Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
All I see game after game is as soon as one major pitfall happens for a team this happens:
1) Commander sells all the stuff
2) Commander quits
3) Everybdoy hits F4
WTF is that about time and time again!?!? I am new to this game but if it is fragile and a comeback that hopeless then this game needs some serious work.
OR
Could it be people need to to stop giving up so fast and maybe try harder when the tides turn a little.
1) Commander sells all the stuff
2) Commander quits
3) Everybdoy hits F4
WTF is that about time and time again!?!? I am new to this game but if it is fragile and a comeback that hopeless then this game needs some serious work.
OR
Could it be people need to to stop giving up so fast and maybe try harder when the tides turn a little.
Comments
ya really, the OP should trying playing COH OF online , now THATS bad
There is nothing wrong with admitting defeat and F4ing when the time is right. It is just that too many people believe the time is right before it actually is.
If you are marine and doubt that you can win, it probably has been over 10 minutes ago.
If you are alien and think it is over, rush marine base Power Node and win.
80% true.
I was playing a on marines yesterday and we were winning by quite a bit. We controlled most of the resource nodes. A couple of aliens decided to f4 and less than a minute later, half our resource towers were down and marines were scrambling to save a tech point. The alien team almost came back while down multiple people. We did end up winning in the end, but I am almost positive they would have completed the comeback with those other two. They were in a clan and were two of that teams better players.
It is sad how easily some give up.
If marines had 2 tech points, and lose 1, with the inability to regain a 2nd point, it is over. All the marines have left is a turtle situation which they can not get out of. I've seen a comback from a turtle once, maybe twice and this includes all of beta up until now. It's a complete waste of time for everyone involved to continue afterwards.
If the aliens are down to two hives, and lose one of them it's usually over as long as the following is true:
a) 1 or less onos with no one else close to becoming one
b) dual exos are on the field (at least 2 with welder support) or
c) arc train is on the field with support
Exos aren't really required for an arc train if aliens have only 1 hive due to not having bile, as long as they are semi-protected as they go to the last hive.
Either way, in these situations a comeback are close enough to impossible that it's a waste of time to try to get out of it. It is fun to turtle the first time it happens to you, but after you've done it a handful of times, it's boring and you really start to dislike it.
Marines can always beacon rush or setup a ninja phase gate
Aliens can almost always go for a bilebomb rush
If aliens are on 1 Hive then it's just tough luck if your team can't hold rooms
There is nothing wrong with admitting defeat and F4ing when the time is right. It is just that too many people believe the time is right before it actually is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is how I think to.
Why does the game allow multiple hives/command centers? If the game is so over after a team loses one than why allow building more? Just end the game when the team loses their only one. And let's say you stuck with it and your team still lost, how much time did you "waste" playing? 10 minutes? These games do not usually take very long to play.
People are quitting this game WAY TOO FAST. Its a typical random internet play problem that games like this are plagued by I guess. Its too bad it has to be so common in this game.
That is the worst gripe I have right now. Quite a few times, I saw the commander selling the entire base before he hits F4. I mean what if a new guy like me wants to try out commander and not have the pressure of a game start? I get to have a losing team and empty base when I get in the chair? Thanks.
STOP SELLING THE BASE BEFORE YOU QUIT. God forbid you wait a little longer after you hit F4. Better idea, don't hit F4 so fast.
Why does the game allow multiple hives/command centers? If the game is so over after a team loses one than why allow building more? Just end the game when the team loses their only one. And let's say you stuck with it and your team still lost, how much time did you "waste" playing? 10 minutes? These games do not usually take very long to play.
People are quitting this game WAY TOO FAST. Its a typical random internet play problem that games like this are plagued by I guess. Its too bad it has to be so common in this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You build more than one to reinforce the importance of territory control and to stagger upgrades.
Once you lose a main base, generally you've not only lost some upgrades, but you've burned out your Pres dying in it's defense. So losing one ruins you completely.
So in answer to the topics title, not always but sometimes.
I remember "back in the day" when there was a mod or something that made all the team entrances random. This is needed again if it doesn't already exist. Right now, with people camping entrances random isn't really very random.
Actually there are at least a couple of servers running mods where the players vote for randomized teams. Or play on a server with active admins that aren't butt's.
Comeback victories do occur in NS2, but most of the time they are either
- Alien powernode rush on inattentive marine comm/team
- People leaving the losing team are replaced by ones who are more skilled
Examples of linearity affecting comebacks:
No free <b>relocations</b> for marines means an end-game relo would have to be on a techpoint probably already occupied by a hive, and if not then still immediately obvious.
<b>Drifters</b> ruin all surprises, phase-gates impossible to sneak against a half-decent pub commander.
<b>Cyst chains </b>make it obvious where structures will (can) be.
Alien lifeforms universally lose major abilities once a second hive is lost, to weaken them for the final kill. For example, ns1 fades still had blink and a good fade could still keep marines on their toes, providing opportunity for comebacks.
Compared to ns1, ns2 feels like im on rails.
Examples of linearity affecting comebacks:
No free <b>relocations</b> for marines means an end-game relo would have to be on a techpoint probably already occupied by a hive, and if not then still immediately obvious.
<b>Drifters</b> ruin all surprises, phase-gates impossible to sneak against a half-decent pub commander.
<b>Cyst chains </b>make it obvious where structures will (can) be.
Alien lifeforms universally lose major abilities once a second hive is lost, to weaken them for the final kill. For example, ns1 fades still had blink and a good fade could still keep marines on their toes, providing opportunity for comebacks.
Compared to ns1, ns2 feels like im on rails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was going to post exactly this, structures are very limited in where they can be so it's much harder to be sneaky with them. Aliens can even block any possibility with cyst spam to cover the ground with infestation.
No, that's how it is in every game. It's just a bit more prominent in most RTS games.
You can attempt to fight for a comeback, but it's very unlikely to happen once the game starts going REALLY bad (one team down to 3 RTs and unable to push out).
I've forced a 30 minute base defence using Arcs before and some well placed turrets.
To make a come back with Marines is pretty much about being able to break the line.
A Marine in the enemy base can knock upgrades off line.
A Mac breaking the line can power up distant rooms and create phase gates.
The problem is breaking the lines.
If jetpack had two levels one lower power say 1/2 to 1/3 that could be used with one command point but at a higher cost it would help break the lines easier.
Other than that you need your whole team to create a fire wall to cover the escape of 1 person deeper into the hive / infestation.
1) Commander sells all the stuff
2) Commander quits
3) Everybdoy hits F4
WTF is that about time and time again!?!? I am new to this game but if it is fragile and a comeback that hopeless then this game needs some serious work.
OR
Could it be people need to to stop giving up so fast and maybe try harder when the tides turn a little.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im pretty sick of this argument. put yourself on the winning side of this "issue" what if game after game you had 3 hives and marines are just sitting on 1 com chair and 1 RT and GAME AFTER GAME they would come back and win.
this seem right to you?
which is more balanced??
STRONG > WEAK
or
WEAK > STRONG
I am not happy with this game then. What fun is a game where there is little chance of comeback? They need to work on this. But if its this bad I aint so sure they can. Ugh.
If aliens are on 1 Hive then it's just tough luck if your team can't hold rooms<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tying alien upgrades to the Hive they have been researched in, rather than the total number of Hives would solve this problem a bit, since you could decide to get the more valuable upgrades like Bile Bomb at your main Hive that you are less likely to lose than your secondary one. You would have to re-research the upgrades for the lost Hive if you managed to get another one up again, though, and it would take longer to research everything if you wanted to stay on the safe side and research ALL upgrades in the main Hive only.
this seem right to you?
which is more balanced??
STRONG > WEAK
or
WEAK > STRONG<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is your argument here? Do you not like comebacks? If that is the point, that is ridiculous. There is nothing more fun than winning with a comeback. And if the game is basically incapable of them that is a big game flaw.
I don't think games are usually meant to have lots of comebacks, would feel crappy to be winning the whole game but in the end have it not mean enough to win. That aside, I do like back and forth through out the game, those are the best games even when you do lose. But that's not a come back, that's an evenly matched battle.
There ARE comebacks, but I don't think it's a bad thing they are rare, and it makes sense. I've seen marines make comebacks after pushing a hive and having aliens keep pushing their base thinking.. i don't know, that they could end it in time, or they could spare a hive. Now a lot of the time at this point the marines still give up, and for the life of me I have no idea why but it's not the game it's the people at that point. Now a few rare times marines kept pushing and destroyed the aliens. Truthfully I'm guessing these last battles were from enough marines F4ing and getting a new batch in the game. If the marines are good enough to take down hives at the end, they probably would have done it from the beginning.
If balance gets worked out i think it will help the feeling you're having, cause hopefully you don't have to worry about 6 minutes into each game knowing you're going to lose. Maybe get more of the back and forth battle.
<!--quoteo(post=2045905:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:01 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 14 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tying alien upgrades to the Hive they have been researched in, rather than the total number of Hives would solve this problem a bit, since you could decide to get the more valuable upgrades like Bile Bomb at your main Hive that you are less likely to lose than your secondary one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm 98.5% sure that abilities like bile bomb are not connected to any hive after they are researched (as in as it is being research it can be killed at that hive and would need to get research started again). You get bile bomb until you're back to one hive, and right when the second hive gets put back up, you get your bile bomb back. And you get to keep the upgrade until you die, even if you are knocked back to one hive.
Carapace and celerity and that fun stuff is tied to certain hives. Although I believe you get to keep them unless the lil research building is killed.
- You are still on 1 RT 5 minutes into the game.
- No one is commander for ages.
- There are masses of crags, whips and alien spam outside your last base.
- 10+ whips cruise into your spawn in a nice line.
- You are down to your last base and RT, and marines have been locked in spawn for over 5 minutes.
- It is 10 minutes into the game, fades and maybe onoses are out. Marines have level 0 armor.
- Aliens go shade hive. Marines get slaughtered by cloaking skulks. No scans are given out and armor is not researched until 8 minutes in.
- You are on refinery. All your marines continuously run into lava falls and die, achieving nothing.
- Example map on veil, marines cannot hold topo or skylight RT's for more than 1 minute.
Carapace and celerity and that fun stuff is tied to certain hives. Although I believe you get to keep them unless the lil research building is killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct, but you also keep upgrades like carapace until you die if the upgrade chamber itself is killed.
Except the game isn't incapable of having comebacks.
Just like any other game, when everything is balanced, you have to do certain things to win. When you do enough wrong things and start to lose, there is that much more you have to do to win. The line you walk on, the timing and execution it takes to pull off a come-from-behind victory are balanced on razor thin margins that are slowly closing as time drags on. That's how it's meant to be. You can't be supported for failing to execute throughout the game.
Of course there is nothing more fun than winning a comeback... except you have to <b>win</b> them. The game shouldn't be reoriented to give a losing team a second chance to prevail. Comebacks would be drastically less fun if you you came back from even half of "certain doom" scenarios.