<!--quoteo(post=2045912:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:13 PM:name=LilbitHeartless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LilbitHeartless @ Dec 14 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm 98.5% sure that abilities like bile bomb are not connected to any hive after they are researched (as in as it is being research it can be killed at that hive and would need to get research started again). You get bile bomb until you're back to one hive, and right when the second hive gets put back up, you get your bile bomb back. And you get to keep the upgrade until you die, even if you are knocked back to one hive.
Carapace and celerity and that fun stuff is tied to certain hives. Although I believe you get to keep them unless the lil research building is killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very few alien commanders realise this yet but shifts can be upgraded to allow upgrade structures to be moved so even losing the hive for them means if set out well you can move the upgrades out of the base before Marines come in to eliminate them. I.E. played well you could have a single hive but all evolution upgrades still and only lose the ability and life form egg upgrades
<!--quoteo(post=2045738:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:06 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Dec 14 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's basically how RTSes work. The moment the enemy has a significant economical advantage, it's GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, RTSes should strive to allow for clever coups up until about 66% through a match, but in the final 33% they must (by design) roll up a ton of powerful advantages for the winning team to finish the game so a new game can start.
Typically these come in the form of superweapons of some kind.
Really the major shortcomings of NS2 in that regard are: 1. No Surrender Vote. This means that instead of being able to calmly point out the game is over while still playing, instead you lose 1-3 members of your team and the game still takes a long time to end while that team has virtually no hope of a comeback. With a surrender system you could limit F4ing to some degree, forcing players to stick into the game til the very end while allowing them to concede when things are basically over. 2. Better balancing of holdouts vs. game-enders. Endgame Aliens who are beat back to one base are dramatically weaker than Endgame Marines who are beat back to one base, which probably shouldn't be the case. And while this means Exos function well as a "superweapon" for ending the game against a 1-hive alien team, Onos by comparison aren't nearly as empowered to end a 1-CC marine team.
The solution to #1 is to add a surrender vote.
The solution to #2 is to either reduce 1-hive marine power or improve alien closers (possibly with cost-inefficient superweapons.) But really the trick is to embrace how players are actually playing the game, since aliens actually have some reasonable endgame closer options that just aren't being used often.
<!--quoteo(post=2045905:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:01 AM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 15 2012, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tying alien upgrades to the Hive they have been researched in, rather than the total number of Hives would solve this problem a bit, since you could decide to get the more valuable upgrades like Bile Bomb at your main Hive that you are less likely to lose than your secondary one. You would have to re-research the upgrades for the lost Hive if you managed to get another one up again, though, and it would take longer to research everything if you wanted to stay on the safe side and research ALL upgrades in the main Hive only.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like this idea also allow marines to keep upgrades like jetpack and exo if they still have their proto
<!--quoteo(post=2046008:date=Dec 15 2012, 03:11 AM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 15 2012, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup, RTSes should strive to allow for clever coups up until about 66% through a match, but in the final 33% they must (by design) roll up a ton of powerful advantages for the winning team to finish the game so a new game can start.
Typically these come in the form of superweapons of some kind.
Really the major shortcomings of NS2 in that regard are: 1. No Surrender Vote. This means that instead of being able to calmly point out the game is over while still playing, instead you lose 1-3 members of your team and the game still takes a long time to end while that team has virtually no hope of a comeback. With a surrender system you could limit F4ing to some degree, forcing players to stick into the game til the very end while allowing them to concede when things are basically over. 2. Better balancing of holdouts vs. game-enders. Endgame Aliens who are beat back to one base are dramatically weaker than Endgame Marines who are beat back to one base, which probably shouldn't be the case. And while this means Exos function well as a "superweapon" for ending the game against a 1-hive alien team, Onos by comparison aren't nearly as empowered to end a 1-CC marine team.
The solution to #1 is to add a surrender vote.
The solution to #2 is to either reduce 1-hive marine power or improve alien closers (possibly with cost-inefficient superweapons.) But really the trick is to embrace how players are actually playing the game, since aliens actually have some reasonable endgame closer options that just aren't being used often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> actually no need on #2 there is a way to do it so Onos don't lose everything. Shifts, ok it costs a small amount but using them you can do just what the Marines can and focus all your upgrades into one place and move them around a bit meaning if they come for a hive you simply move the upgrades out. So you could have the full evolutions from all 3 hive types with only 1 hive left up still all you lose is the ability to place the egg for that creature and any abilities such as leap.
<!--quoteo(post=2046034:date=Dec 15 2012, 05:23 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 15 2012, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually no need on #2 there is a way to do it so Onos don't lose everything. Shifts, ok it costs a small amount but using them you can do just what the Marines can and focus all your upgrades into one place and move them around a bit meaning if they come for a hive you simply move the upgrades out. So you could have the full evolutions from all 3 hive types with only 1 hive left up still all you lose is the ability to place the egg for that creature and any abilities such as leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
go start a game in explore mode and test out echo a bit ... them come back here and tell us again how feasable your idea is :P
<!--quoteo(post=2046008:date=Dec 14 2012, 09:11 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 14 2012, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup, RTSes should strive to allow for clever coups up until about 66% through a match, but in the final 33% they must (by design) roll up a ton of powerful advantages for the winning team to finish the game so a new game can start.
The solution to #1 is to add a surrender vote.
The solution to #2 is to either reduce 1-hive marine power or improve alien closers (possibly with cost-inefficient superweapons.) But really the trick is to embrace how players are actually playing the game, since aliens actually have some reasonable endgame closer options that just aren't being used often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 for a surrender vote. It's my favorite mod that I've seen servers run, and is why I don't do Official servers anymore.
I've argued for quite some time that Marines weapon and armor upgrades should be tied to the number of tech points they have but a nerf to the team that loses the most is probably not palatable to the community at the moment. It would go a long way to making that one tech point base fall faster. Although, to be honest, I think one of the main culprits for the long end-game base sieges is a lack of proper Umbra and Spore usage coupled with armory walls and few late-game Gorges in games with lots of new players. Onos are just too shiny for players that haven't learned to quit worrying and love the bomb.
I really don't like seeing games end by surrender vote or F4. It's just not satisfying, there's no payoff. Everybody wants to be there to kill the last base, not just suddenly get dumped into the RR.
Putting aside the issue of endgame aliens being too weak at base-breaking, I think it's also too difficult for both teams to end the game using early/mid-game tech. Making a serious effort to end the game requires a full investment by the whole team. Problem is right now it's unlikely to succeed early on, even with a huge economic lead, since marines can easily beacon and save their base, and aliens can generally hold off an assault by low upgrade rifle/shotty marines. If it fails the attacking team loses territory - especially the marines - which could lead to a loss when they were winning before. Thus everybody prefers to play it safe, and these games drag out pointlessly for far too long. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do think it's something worth thinking about.
<!--quoteo(post=2046012:date=Dec 15 2012, 04:38 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Dec 15 2012, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i like this idea also allow marines to keep upgrades like jetpack and exo if they still have their proto
would make the game more interesting tbh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be more powerful for marines, though, since they can build an unlimited number of Prototype Labs everywhere whereas aliens can only build Hives at specific locations.
<!--quoteo(post=2046061:date=Dec 15 2012, 06:36 AM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 15 2012, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be more powerful for marines, though, since they can build an unlimited number of Prototype Labs everywhere whereas aliens can only build Hives at specific locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
on paper yes, but we all know how marines get stuck in 1 base and then slowly crushed by aliens, im just interested in how the game would play out if they could have exo and jetpacks in those situations.
marines need a way to come back from 1 cc, same for aliens on 1 hive, i think the game would be more interesting and people would at least not f4 as much.
<!--quoteo(post=2046063:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:45 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Dec 15 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->on paper yes, but we all know how marines get stuck in 1 base and then slowly crushed by aliens, im just interested in how the game would play out if they could have exo and jetpacks in those situations.
marines need a way to come back from 1 cc, same for aliens on 1 hive, i think the game would be more interesting and people would at least not f4 as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Map control is supposed to be a big deal. That limitation was specifically added for this reason, proto tech used to work off one base entirely. Having exos in a turtle scenario just makes the game twice as tedious to end.
<!--quoteo(post=2046039:date=Dec 15 2012, 04:30 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Dec 15 2012, 04:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->go start a game in explore mode and test out echo a bit ... them come back here and tell us again how feasable your idea is :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 15 resources for the shift 10 for echo evolve 2 hive locations for it Cost to move the things this way is realistically 62 over the game time. Cost to rebuild and repeat the research on them
30 for just the evolution units alone so 120 total 30 for the evolutions so 120 more.
Total cost to replace just the evolution upgrades alone is 240 resources.
so while 62 resources to move the items might seem expensive its still far better than having to try and replace them and see them lost. Also added thing short of using drifters to help in fights or mist etc unlike the Marine commander the Alien one isn't as involved in battles and as such can simply move the stuff if it looks like the hive might go down.
<!--quoteo(post=2046077:date=Dec 15 2012, 03:20 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 15 2012, 03:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The NS2 slippery slope isn't as bad as NS1 was. If you lose your second tech point to hive 3 aliens though, the game is over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->^^This for the most part.
However, I do agree that marines can sometimes be a bit too quick to concede the game. Mind you that's more because people have been worn down by the skewed balance.
I've had games like that and what I try and do is say "Hey, let's all just rush a hive. If we fail and they take out spawn, then we lose anyway." While people may not bother, I have had a couple occasions when we have pulled off a win this way. (maybe 1 in 20) The aliens were caught too far from their hive, and it died before they could get back. Then - since they were chasing the marines instead of going after the base - things went further south when we hit a second hive. Now we didn't quite make it, but we ended up taking out many of their upgrades, a branch of their cyst chain and a few harvesters. This gave us a window to tech up, and we ended up turning the tide because *everyone* got behind the push.
Sure it won't happen very often, but I would rather die playing the game than just wimp out and recycle. Even if I know our chances are slim, I will still try and motivate people to work together and take out as many Onos as we can, and then if possible try and push out of base. If we fail and lose our base, nothing ventured, nothing gained - right?
<!--quoteo(post=2046063:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:45 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Dec 15 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->on paper yes, but we all know how marines get stuck in 1 base and then slowly crushed by aliens, im just interested in how the game would play out if they could have exo and jetpacks in those situations.
marines need a way to come back from 1 cc, same for aliens on 1 hive, i think the game would be more interesting and people would at least not f4 as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. If you allow marines to buy jp and exos on 1 tech point then turtles will NEVER end.
you could awlays set it something like when down to one base with the enemy occupying 3 or more you can force your last resource node into over drive. your resource earning rate double or more however after 5 minutes it explodes and takes out other things in the base, for example you lose the power for the base. A doubled edged sword as it gives you the resources but will most likely kill you too
I was coming back from games I thought were lost for sure. (losing the 2nd hive twice in the beginning) or being stuck on one base forever as marine, but managed to hold nano. So we a steady 3 RTs we somehow pushed them back eventually (after killing one onos after the other)
There's very little rooms for comebacks in NS 2, unfortunately. They really should allow aliens to better compete on 1 hive and make marines a little less punishing once they fall behind on extractors.
comebacks are most certainly possible. The team just needs to ######ing listen. Don't go solo it's not some call of duty spinoff where all eyes are on you, all eyes are on your team and how coordinated you are.
A lot of great points in this thread. I want to clarify the thing about comebacks in the game. I don't necessarily want them to go all the way to victory alot either. The better point to be made is what someone said and that is the "back and forth" is what is fun. That is what gets lost when a team quits too early. Something like the marines kill a hive and then the aliens kill a comm but both teams are still fighting and they start building them back, etc... All I have seen so far is the 1st team to kill one hive/comm, and then its F4 time!!
Back to commanders recycling the base. I saw it again last night. There is no excuse for this. What I did last night and will do every time I play from now on, is after he gets out of the chair, I am going to get in it and lay the infranty portals back down. If 10 minutes of your time is that important to you that you have to screw everybody else's game for your own selfishness, then quit and go to another server.
STOP SELLING THE BASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone brought up the surrender vote will help stop this. I think it at least puts the question to the team on whether it is time to give up, versus an idiot commander who just can't wait to get to his next game after this one is far from over.
Zek I think made a huge point on why surrender is bad. For the winning team, you lose the satisfaction of winning. I love it when it says "Marines Win" or "Alients Win" after you kill the last structure. And you can bet surrender will be abused too. I dont think this is the answer. This problem is a people thing. I don't think the game can solve it.
<!--quoteo(post=2046042:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:41 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 for a surrender vote. It's my favorite mod that I've seen servers run, and is why I don't do Official servers anymore.
I've argued for quite some time that Marines weapon and armor upgrades should be tied to the number of tech points they have but a nerf to the team that loses the most is probably not palatable to the community at the moment. It would go a long way to making that one tech point base fall faster. Although, to be honest, I think one of the main culprits for the long end-game base sieges is a lack of proper Umbra and Spore usage coupled with armory walls and few late-game Gorges in games with lots of new players. Onos are just too shiny for players that haven't learned to quit worrying and love the bomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on all accounts. Weak Umbra/Spore/Bilebomb usage is part of the "embracing how players actually play" comment, although I suppose I wouldn't make these abilities more casual but instead make it more obvious to players how important they are.
The problem with comebacks is that a commander & team that loses the plain fight will probably not see opportunities to comeback. For example you have a marine that's managed to get way behind enemy lines in a room that still has power. A smart commander does something with that, a smart marine knows to prompt the commander to do something. Most do neither.
There's a reason why people in RTS games just concede the match prematurely early in the game. At some point the game become theirs to lose and sloppy play is the only way for your team to win. Does this mean victory is impossible? Of course not as nothing is set in stone until the last CC/Hive is brought down, but do you really want to spend another 10+ minutes delaying what is most likely the inevitable?
If you want to spend another 10+ minutes to see if the team can pull off a comeback victory then that's your prerogative. I'd rather call it a loss and get on with the next round. Though I highly suggest doing an all-in push with the entire team and see if something happens before conceding the match. If nothing happens, well you know what your team should do.
In this sense I think the game is actually quite perfect.
The whole meta game reminds me of starcraft brood war zerg vs terran, where a good terran map control could be shattered by lerk/crackling drops (bile and power node), and a good zerg map control was much harder to Break for the terran because of the overlords and well placed base defenses.
<!--quoteo(post=2046063:date=Dec 15 2012, 06:45 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Dec 15 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->on paper yes, but we all know how marines get stuck in 1 base and then slowly crushed by aliens, im just interested in how the game would play out if they could have exo and jetpacks in those situations.
marines need a way to come back from 1 cc, same for aliens on 1 hive, i think the game would be more interesting and people would at least not f4 as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jetpacks are indeed too powerful for the low cost, which would make it really hard to end turtles. The only way I could see it work out would be to restrict it to only be able to get 50 res Exos in a single CC situation. They are handicapped and expensive enough for aliens to take them down with a coordinated effort and without having a constant flow out of base with them while still giving marines *something* to make a coordinated comeback push against Onos and alien structures outside of the marine base, though it would be really hard to pull off.
And it would give that 50 res Exo a reason of existence if it's the only thing marines can get when they are pushed back.
<!--quoteo(post=2046279:date=Dec 15 2012, 11:45 AM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 15 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks are indeed too powerful for the low cost,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armory - 10 Advanced Armory - 20 Second comm chair - 15 (not including resources to actually maintain the position, which is necessary) Protolab - 40 JP Research - 25 Individual JP Cost - 10
Granted, some of those are "legacy" costs but even if we started at the essentials, 2nd comm chair, JPs are still 90 res to get researched and deployed.
The actual purchase of JPs is cheap, no arguing that... getting them available isn't.
<!--quoteo(post=2046291:date=Dec 15 2012, 08:20 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 15 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Armory - 10 Advanced Armory - 20 Second comm chair - 15 (not including resources to actually maintain the position, which is necessary) Protolab - 40 JP Research - 25 Individual JP Cost - 10
Granted, some of those are "legacy" costs but even if we started at the essentials, 2nd comm chair, JPs are still 90 res to get researched and deployed.
The actual purchase of JPs is cheap, no arguing that... getting them available isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to factor in that except for the JP Research and the Individual JP Cost, all those things are not exclusive to getting jetpacks on the field. Armories are always needed. You will want Advanced Armouries for the advanced weapons anyway when attacking alien bases.
While the second Comm Chair is important for the marine tech progression, it goes hand in hand with securing a location by denying an enemy Hive drop, having a backup base in case the main base gets overrunned and to have additional spawn locations at the front. Not forgetting about that it's required to beacon to that location. A Comm Chair pays for itself without the actual tech progression already.
The ProtoLab shares it's cost with the research path for Exos, hence why I would consider it effectively only with a price of 20 res for the Jetpack path. The Individual Jetpack Cost can be payed by each marine individually, so you can't really factor it into the equation.
With "low cost" I was indeed referring to the personal cost only, which is what it eventually boils down to in comparison when you talk about reacquisition. If you kill a guy with a Shotgun, that's 20 res gone for him unless a team mate picks it up again. If you kill a Jetpacker, that's only 10 res gone (though his team mate can't pick it up again, so I give you that one). The question is: is a Jetpack really that much worse than a Shotgun for combat that there is no problem with having it almost constantly available for people after respawn, i.e. a no-brainer?
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
<!--quoteo(post=2045803:date=Dec 14 2012, 09:30 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Dec 14 2012, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1/2 is like Chess in that the point where you've lost comes well before you get checkmated. There is always quite a bit a disagreement regarding when you reach the point of no return, but I view it as common courtesy to GG a match after you've concluded you can't win.
Comeback victories do occur in NS2, but most of the time they are either - Alien powernode rush on inattentive marine comm/team - People leaving the losing team are replaced by ones who are more skilled<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True. And to stay at that analogy, people often lose their queen, keep playing for another 10 minutes wasting everyone's time (considered BM in chess) and yell at people who F4. Some just lack the experience to recognize a lost game.
Egg lock will always put Aliens at a significant disadvantage over Marines on one hive versus one tech point.
This is by design I suppose. Aliens get ROFLStomped with one hive remaining even with mediocre Marines assaulting. Marines can hold out <i>forever</i> with W3/A3 versus mediocre Aliens. (Although <i>good</i> aliens will melt armory walls with Bile and gang up on the power node with Onos and Bile for a quick end to almost any turtle. Throw in Umbra and it's pretty easy.)
I don't really see this as a problem, since you'll still inevitably win as aliens in such a situation. My only real gripe is that egg lock isn't really fun against some wimpy Marines that refuse to actually enter a hive and kill it, even when no aliens have appeared for fifteen seconds. It can get silly <i>some</i> of the time. I'll F4 on a one-hive egg lock too, there is no come back in that situation nor should there be. I'd do the same on one tech point with crags/shifts/whips outside of all Marines exits.
<!--quoteo(post=2046271:date=Dec 15 2012, 01:31 PM:name=PimpToad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PimpToad @ Dec 15 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a reason why people in RTS games just concede the match prematurely early in the game. At some point the game become theirs to lose and sloppy play is the only way for your team to win. Does this mean victory is impossible? Of course not as nothing is set in stone until the last CC/Hive is brought down, but do you really want to spend another 10+ minutes delaying what is most likely the inevitable?
If you want to spend another 10+ minutes to see if the team can pull off a comeback victory then that's your prerogative. I'd rather call it a loss and get on with the next round. Though I highly suggest doing an all-in push with the entire team and see if something happens before conceding the match. If nothing happens, well you know what your team should do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it isn't my perogative when the commander sells the base. I lose the chance for me or someone else else to take over and win or lose, no matter. One jag-off should not tank the whole game because of his own personal impatience or loser attitude. And again tonight, another one does it. This should be a bannable offense.
<!--quoteo(post=2046178:date=Dec 15 2012, 01:21 PM:name=MrChoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrChoke @ Dec 15 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of great points in this thread. I want to clarify the thing about comebacks in the game. I don't necessarily want them to go all the way to victory alot either. The better point to be made is what someone said and that is the "back and forth" is what is fun. That is what gets lost when a team quits too early. Something like the marines kill a hive and then the aliens kill a comm but both teams are still fighting and they start building them back, etc... All I have seen so far is the 1st team to kill one hive/comm, and then its F4 time!!
Back to commanders recycling the base. I saw it again last night. There is no excuse for this. What I did last night and will do every time I play from now on, is after he gets out of the chair, I am going to get in it and lay the infranty portals back down. If 10 minutes of your time is that important to you that you have to screw everybody else's game for your own selfishness, then quit and go to another server.
STOP SELLING THE BASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone brought up the surrender vote will help stop this. I think it at least puts the question to the team on whether it is time to give up, versus an idiot commander who just can't wait to get to his next game after this one is far from over.
Zek I think made a huge point on why surrender is bad. For the winning team, you lose the satisfaction of winning. I love it when it says "Marines Win" or "Alients Win" after you kill the last structure. And you can bet surrender will be abused too. I dont think this is the answer. This problem is a people thing. I don't think the game can solve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Had this the other day. The Aliens set up 2 RTs before Marines set up 1. Marine commander "Ok its over we lost gg" Marine Team "wait what you're like right at the RT points not with power up, just drop some extractors" Marine Commander "no we're too far behind RT wise its over I'm selling" *You need an infantry portal* All the Marine team bar the commander were away from base so even if we kicked him we couldn't have got new portals back up in time
Comments
Carapace and celerity and that fun stuff is tied to certain hives. Although I believe you get to keep them unless the lil research building is killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very few alien commanders realise this yet but shifts can be upgraded to allow upgrade structures to be moved so even losing the hive for them means if set out well you can move the upgrades out of the base before Marines come in to eliminate them. I.E. played well you could have a single hive but all evolution upgrades still and only lose the ability and life form egg upgrades
Yup, RTSes should strive to allow for clever coups up until about 66% through a match, but in the final 33% they must (by design) roll up a ton of powerful advantages for the winning team to finish the game so a new game can start.
Typically these come in the form of superweapons of some kind.
Really the major shortcomings of NS2 in that regard are:
1. No Surrender Vote. This means that instead of being able to calmly point out the game is over while still playing, instead you lose 1-3 members of your team and the game still takes a long time to end while that team has virtually no hope of a comeback. With a surrender system you could limit F4ing to some degree, forcing players to stick into the game til the very end while allowing them to concede when things are basically over.
2. Better balancing of holdouts vs. game-enders. Endgame Aliens who are beat back to one base are dramatically weaker than Endgame Marines who are beat back to one base, which probably shouldn't be the case. And while this means Exos function well as a "superweapon" for ending the game against a 1-hive alien team, Onos by comparison aren't nearly as empowered to end a 1-CC marine team.
The solution to #1 is to add a surrender vote.
The solution to #2 is to either reduce 1-hive marine power or improve alien closers (possibly with cost-inefficient superweapons.) But really the trick is to embrace how players are actually playing the game, since aliens actually have some reasonable endgame closer options that just aren't being used often.
i like this idea
also allow marines to keep upgrades like jetpack and exo if they still have their proto
would make the game more interesting tbh
Typically these come in the form of superweapons of some kind.
Really the major shortcomings of NS2 in that regard are:
1. No Surrender Vote. This means that instead of being able to calmly point out the game is over while still playing, instead you lose 1-3 members of your team and the game still takes a long time to end while that team has virtually no hope of a comeback. With a surrender system you could limit F4ing to some degree, forcing players to stick into the game til the very end while allowing them to concede when things are basically over.
2. Better balancing of holdouts vs. game-enders. Endgame Aliens who are beat back to one base are dramatically weaker than Endgame Marines who are beat back to one base, which probably shouldn't be the case. And while this means Exos function well as a "superweapon" for ending the game against a 1-hive alien team, Onos by comparison aren't nearly as empowered to end a 1-CC marine team.
The solution to #1 is to add a surrender vote.
The solution to #2 is to either reduce 1-hive marine power or improve alien closers (possibly with cost-inefficient superweapons.) But really the trick is to embrace how players are actually playing the game, since aliens actually have some reasonable endgame closer options that just aren't being used often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually no need on #2 there is a way to do it so Onos don't lose everything. Shifts, ok it costs a small amount but using them you can do just what the Marines can and focus all your upgrades into one place and move them around a bit meaning if they come for a hive you simply move the upgrades out.
So you could have the full evolutions from all 3 hive types with only 1 hive left up still all you lose is the ability to place the egg for that creature and any abilities such as leap.
So you could have the full evolutions from all 3 hive types with only 1 hive left up still all you lose is the ability to place the egg for that creature and any abilities such as leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
go start a game in explore mode and test out echo a bit ... them come back here and tell us again how feasable your idea is :P
The solution to #1 is to add a surrender vote.
The solution to #2 is to either reduce 1-hive marine power or improve alien closers (possibly with cost-inefficient superweapons.) But really the trick is to embrace how players are actually playing the game, since aliens actually have some reasonable endgame closer options that just aren't being used often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 for a surrender vote. It's my favorite mod that I've seen servers run, and is why I don't do Official servers anymore.
I've argued for quite some time that Marines weapon and armor upgrades should be tied to the number of tech points they have but a nerf to the team that loses the most is probably not palatable to the community at the moment. It would go a long way to making that one tech point base fall faster. Although, to be honest, I think one of the main culprits for the long end-game base sieges is a lack of proper Umbra and Spore usage coupled with armory walls and few late-game Gorges in games with lots of new players. Onos are just too shiny for players that haven't learned to quit worrying and love the bomb.
Putting aside the issue of endgame aliens being too weak at base-breaking, I think it's also too difficult for both teams to end the game using early/mid-game tech. Making a serious effort to end the game requires a full investment by the whole team. Problem is right now it's unlikely to succeed early on, even with a huge economic lead, since marines can easily beacon and save their base, and aliens can generally hold off an assault by low upgrade rifle/shotty marines. If it fails the attacking team loses territory - especially the marines - which could lead to a loss when they were winning before. Thus everybody prefers to play it safe, and these games drag out pointlessly for far too long. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do think it's something worth thinking about.
also allow marines to keep upgrades like jetpack and exo if they still have their proto
would make the game more interesting tbh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be more powerful for marines, though, since they can build an unlimited number of Prototype Labs everywhere whereas aliens can only build Hives at specific locations.
on paper yes, but we all know how marines get stuck in 1 base and then slowly crushed by aliens, im just interested in how the game would play out if they could have exo and jetpacks in those situations.
marines need a way to come back from 1 cc, same for aliens on 1 hive, i think the game would be more interesting and people would at least not f4 as much.
marines need a way to come back from 1 cc, same for aliens on 1 hive, i think the game would be more interesting and people would at least not f4 as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Map control is supposed to be a big deal. That limitation was specifically added for this reason, proto tech used to work off one base entirely. Having exos in a turtle scenario just makes the game twice as tedious to end.
15 resources for the shift
10 for echo evolve
2 hive locations for it
Cost to move the things this way is realistically 62 over the game time.
Cost to rebuild and repeat the research on them
30 for just the evolution units alone so 120 total
30 for the evolutions so 120 more.
Total cost to replace just the evolution upgrades alone is 240 resources.
so while 62 resources to move the items might seem expensive its still far better than having to try and replace them and see them lost. Also added thing short of using drifters to help in fights or mist etc unlike the Marine commander the Alien one isn't as involved in battles and as such can simply move the stuff if it looks like the hive might go down.
However, I do agree that marines can sometimes be a bit too quick to concede the game. Mind you that's more because people have been worn down by the skewed balance.
I've had games like that and what I try and do is say "Hey, let's all just rush a hive. If we fail and they take out spawn, then we lose anyway." While people may not bother, I have had a couple occasions when we have pulled off a win this way. (maybe 1 in 20) The aliens were caught too far from their hive, and it died before they could get back. Then - since they were chasing the marines instead of going after the base - things went further south when we hit a second hive. Now we didn't quite make it, but we ended up taking out many of their upgrades, a branch of their cyst chain and a few harvesters. This gave us a window to tech up, and we ended up turning the tide because *everyone* got behind the push.
Sure it won't happen very often, but I would rather die playing the game than just wimp out and recycle. Even if I know our chances are slim, I will still try and motivate people to work together and take out as many Onos as we can, and then if possible try and push out of base. If we fail and lose our base, nothing ventured, nothing gained - right?
marines need a way to come back from 1 cc, same for aliens on 1 hive, i think the game would be more interesting and people would at least not f4 as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. If you allow marines to buy jp and exos on 1 tech point then turtles will NEVER end.
A doubled edged sword as it gives you the resources but will most likely kill you too
Back to commanders recycling the base. I saw it again last night. There is no excuse for this. What I did last night and will do every time I play from now on, is after he gets out of the chair, I am going to get in it and lay the infranty portals back down. If 10 minutes of your time is that important to you that you have to screw everybody else's game for your own selfishness, then quit and go to another server.
STOP SELLING THE BASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone brought up the surrender vote will help stop this. I think it at least puts the question to the team on whether it is time to give up, versus an idiot commander who just can't wait to get to his next game after this one is far from over.
Zek I think made a huge point on why surrender is bad. For the winning team, you lose the satisfaction of winning. I love it when it says "Marines Win" or "Alients Win" after you kill the last structure. And you can bet surrender will be abused too. I dont think this is the answer. This problem is a people thing. I don't think the game can solve it.
I've argued for quite some time that Marines weapon and armor upgrades should be tied to the number of tech points they have but a nerf to the team that loses the most is probably not palatable to the community at the moment. It would go a long way to making that one tech point base fall faster. Although, to be honest, I think one of the main culprits for the long end-game base sieges is a lack of proper Umbra and Spore usage coupled with armory walls and few late-game Gorges in games with lots of new players. Onos are just too shiny for players that haven't learned to quit worrying and love the bomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on all accounts. Weak Umbra/Spore/Bilebomb usage is part of the "embracing how players actually play" comment, although I suppose I wouldn't make these abilities more casual but instead make it more obvious to players how important they are.
If you want to spend another 10+ minutes to see if the team can pull off a comeback victory then that's your prerogative. I'd rather call it a loss and get on with the next round. Though I highly suggest doing an all-in push with the entire team and see if something happens before conceding the match. If nothing happens, well you know what your team should do.
The whole meta game reminds me of starcraft brood war zerg vs terran, where a good terran map control could be shattered by lerk/crackling drops (bile and power node), and a good zerg map control was much harder to Break for the terran because of the overlords and well placed base defenses.
marines need a way to come back from 1 cc, same for aliens on 1 hive, i think the game would be more interesting and people would at least not f4 as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jetpacks are indeed too powerful for the low cost, which would make it really hard to end turtles.
The only way I could see it work out would be to restrict it to only be able to get 50 res Exos in a single CC situation. They are handicapped and expensive enough for aliens to take them down with a coordinated effort and without having a constant flow out of base with them while still giving marines *something* to make a coordinated comeback push against Onos and alien structures outside of the marine base, though it would be really hard to pull off.
And it would give that 50 res Exo a reason of existence if it's the only thing marines can get when they are pushed back.
Armory - 10
Advanced Armory - 20
Second comm chair - 15 (not including resources to actually maintain the position, which is necessary)
Protolab - 40
JP Research - 25
Individual JP Cost - 10
Granted, some of those are "legacy" costs but even if we started at the essentials, 2nd comm chair, JPs are still 90 res to get researched and deployed.
The actual purchase of JPs is cheap, no arguing that... getting them available isn't.
Advanced Armory - 20
Second comm chair - 15 (not including resources to actually maintain the position, which is necessary)
Protolab - 40
JP Research - 25
Individual JP Cost - 10
Granted, some of those are "legacy" costs but even if we started at the essentials, 2nd comm chair, JPs are still 90 res to get researched and deployed.
The actual purchase of JPs is cheap, no arguing that... getting them available isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to factor in that except for the JP Research and the Individual JP Cost, all those things are not exclusive to getting jetpacks on the field.
Armories are always needed. You will want Advanced Armouries for the advanced weapons anyway when attacking alien bases.
While the second Comm Chair is important for the marine tech progression, it goes hand in hand with securing a location by denying an enemy Hive drop, having a backup base in case the main base gets overrunned and to have additional spawn locations at the front. Not forgetting about that it's required to beacon to that location. A Comm Chair pays for itself without the actual tech progression already.
The ProtoLab shares it's cost with the research path for Exos, hence why I would consider it effectively only with a price of 20 res for the Jetpack path.
The Individual Jetpack Cost can be payed by each marine individually, so you can't really factor it into the equation.
With "low cost" I was indeed referring to the personal cost only, which is what it eventually boils down to in comparison when you talk about reacquisition. If you kill a guy with a Shotgun, that's 20 res gone for him unless a team mate picks it up again. If you kill a Jetpacker, that's only 10 res gone (though his team mate can't pick it up again, so I give you that one). The question is: is a Jetpack really that much worse than a Shotgun for combat that there is no problem with having it almost constantly available for people after respawn, i.e. a no-brainer?
Comeback victories do occur in NS2, but most of the time they are either
- Alien powernode rush on inattentive marine comm/team
- People leaving the losing team are replaced by ones who are more skilled<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. And to stay at that analogy, people often lose their queen, keep playing for another 10 minutes wasting everyone's time (considered BM in chess) and yell at people who F4. Some just lack the experience to recognize a lost game.
This is by design I suppose. Aliens get ROFLStomped with one hive remaining even with mediocre Marines assaulting. Marines can hold out <i>forever</i> with W3/A3 versus mediocre Aliens. (Although <i>good</i> aliens will melt armory walls with Bile and gang up on the power node with Onos and Bile for a quick end to almost any turtle. Throw in Umbra and it's pretty easy.)
I don't really see this as a problem, since you'll still inevitably win as aliens in such a situation. My only real gripe is that egg lock isn't really fun against some wimpy Marines that refuse to actually enter a hive and kill it, even when no aliens have appeared for fifteen seconds. It can get silly <i>some</i> of the time. I'll F4 on a one-hive egg lock too, there is no come back in that situation nor should there be. I'd do the same on one tech point with crags/shifts/whips outside of all Marines exits.
If you want to spend another 10+ minutes to see if the team can pull off a comeback victory then that's your prerogative. I'd rather call it a loss and get on with the next round. Though I highly suggest doing an all-in push with the entire team and see if something happens before conceding the match. If nothing happens, well you know what your team should do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it isn't my perogative when the commander sells the base. I lose the chance for me or someone else else to take over and win or lose, no matter. One jag-off should not tank the whole game because of his own personal impatience or loser attitude. And again tonight, another one does it. This should be a bannable offense.
Back to commanders recycling the base. I saw it again last night. There is no excuse for this. What I did last night and will do every time I play from now on, is after he gets out of the chair, I am going to get in it and lay the infranty portals back down. If 10 minutes of your time is that important to you that you have to screw everybody else's game for your own selfishness, then quit and go to another server.
STOP SELLING THE BASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone brought up the surrender vote will help stop this. I think it at least puts the question to the team on whether it is time to give up, versus an idiot commander who just can't wait to get to his next game after this one is far from over.
Zek I think made a huge point on why surrender is bad. For the winning team, you lose the satisfaction of winning. I love it when it says "Marines Win" or "Alients Win" after you kill the last structure. And you can bet surrender will be abused too. I dont think this is the answer. This problem is a people thing. I don't think the game can solve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Had this the other day. The Aliens set up 2 RTs before Marines set up 1.
Marine commander "Ok its over we lost gg"
Marine Team "wait what you're like right at the RT points not with power up, just drop some extractors"
Marine Commander "no we're too far behind RT wise its over I'm selling"
*You need an infantry portal*
All the Marine team bar the commander were away from base so even if we kicked him we couldn't have got new portals back up in time