<!--quoteo(post=2036746:date=Nov 29 2012, 08:13 AM:name=Jarl Ballin')--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jarl Ballin' @ Nov 29 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glancing bites were added after the reduction to the damage cone. So removing glancing bites and returning the damage cone to it's original size would be better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty sure they widened the core bite cylinder when they added glancing, was around the time they changed from cone to cylinder type bite "boxes".
Reality is a good skulk v good marine in cqb is pretty much 50-50, model collision is poor and marines clip over aliens too easily. Also you can jump around like crazy which whilst not doing a lot it does seem to effect collision as skulks try to bite (skulks seem to slip underneath more) and does frequently buy you enough time to win more often than not.
<!--quoteo(post=2037112:date=Nov 29 2012, 11:44 AM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Nov 29 2012, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just silly. You need to play NS more. The maps are designed to give aliens a helping hand. It is crucial for alien players to learn the maps so they can ambush and kill marines. Also you need to learn to wall jump as a skulk.
Adding some kind of jump penalty to marines is just absurd and downright asinine. If you are close enough to a marine that he can jump as a valid maneuver and you just can't kill him again and again, then you are a crappy skulk. That’s it. You need to get better.
The thread is absurd. By the time the skulk is close enough to the marine that jumping matters for the marine, the skulk already has all the advantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And don't forget that with invisibility aliens don't even need any skill to get to biting distance to marines. It's pretty silly.
<!--quoteo(post=2037183:date=Nov 29 2012, 02:33 PM:name=Zenu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zenu @ Nov 29 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And don't forget that with invisibility aliens don't even need any skill to get to biting distance to marines. It's pretty silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. Nerf the 100% cloak effect please and then we can talk about jump nerf.
<!--quoteo(post=2037112:date=Nov 29 2012, 04:44 AM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Nov 29 2012, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just silly. You need to play NS more. The maps are designed to give aliens a helping hand. It is crucial for alien players to learn the maps so they can ambush and kill marines. Also you need to learn to wall jump as a skulk.
Adding some kind of jump penalty to marines is just absurd and downright asinine. If you are close enough to a marine that he can jump as a valid maneuver and you just can't kill him again and again, then you are a crappy skulk. That’s it. You need to get better.
The thread is absurd. By the time the skulk is close enough to the marine that jumping matters for the marine, the skulk already has all the advantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. This is a terrible thread basically screaming for lowering any skill ceilings to the floor. Next he will ask for auto aim on marines, because thats the impression I get from the OP - aliens should always win in melee, marines always win at range.
I played NS since the release of NS1, so don't come at me with the "you're a skill less noob who needs to play more and just wants easy mode" ad hominem attack line I see way to often in these threads; just because you played NS1 doesn't make you inherently a better gamer nor your opinions better. I was overall okay with the Rine jumping in NS1 by the time they hammered it out. You got one good jump than you had to actually aim better than the skulk to win the engagement; It wasn't a problem with NS1 even with skulks having bunny hopping, which is now gone for good reasons. NS2, it is worse. I was playing last night, first on my team as aliens, and rines were hopping around like they were effed up on meth. Even if they screwed up their first and second jump and didn't position themselves well, they still were provided a chance to jump, yet again, into better positioning. If you screw up the first jump and don't get yourself in a good position for the engagement, that is a lack of skill on your part, and the skulk player has every right to want to have the advantage at that point. It doesn't mean he will automatically win the engagement, nor should he ever. He still has to continue running around and successfully aim at the rine, while being pelted by bullets from multiple marines most likely.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just remove the jump penalty and reduce the jump hight and/or speed, that said UWE seems to be flat out against any decent movement system tbh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I personally think the wall jumping system is fantastic. I can really get screaming across a map and come flying into engagements pretty dang fast using wall jumping. It does need smoothed out some, but to act like it isn't a skill based movement is ridiculous and shows a bias.
Lastly, cloaking does need worked on. I think, when moving, aliens should shimmer a tiny bit to give aware marines a chance. It also would require aliens to use a little more thought and skill when using camo. However, that isn't what this thread is about so stop trying to ignore the conversation at hand because you don't agree with the OP.
No thanks, unnecessary change. There is already a jump spam penalty mechanic in the game. Marines are not meant to be as mobile as aliens but that doesn't mean that they're supposed to be slow and clunky. EXOs are clunky. Regular marines need to be agile in order to fight something so fierce and deadly as the Kharaa threat.
Haze, I don't consider that a sound nor logical argument. Same could be said for Kharaa. Marines are a fierce and deadly enemy so aliens should get a speed buff in order to close the gap; see I can make generalized claims too. NS1 rine jump mechanics worked well, as evidenced by the balanced nature of the games and the large player base, so I'm unsure why a system very similar would be so awful. And again, rine hopping adds a frustrating randomness to battles by giving rines a mechanic which makes their movement in battle completely arratic and random. This forces aliens, to a degree, to have to guess where to aim and hope the rine jumped that way. Randomness in any game mechanic tends to cause frustration for a majority of players and hinder an enjoyable gaming experience; it is the same reason competitive players, yes those players who hardcore players think are the pinnacle of a game, pushed so hard to have it removed from the majority of modern games. The majority of competitive players hate random game mechanics, because it makes it near impossible to truly have a equitable and fair match. A match could be easily shifted because of an random outcome neither team had any real direct control over.
<!--quoteo(post=2037420:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:37 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Nov 29 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Haze, I don't consider that a sound nor logical argument. Same could be said for Kharaa. Marines are a fierce and deadly enemy so aliens should get a speed buff in order to close the gap; see I can make generalized claims too. NS1 rine jump mechanics worked well, as evidenced by the balanced nature of the games and the large player base, so I'm unsure why a system very similar would be so awful. And again, rine hopping adds a frustrating randomness to battles by giving rines a mechanic which makes their movement in battle completely arratic and random. This forces aliens, to a degree, to have to guess where to aim and hope the rine jumped that way. Randomness in any game mechanic tends to cause frustration for a majority of players and hinder an enjoyable gaming experience; it is the same reason competitive players, yes those players who hardcore players think are the pinnacle of a game, pushed so hard to have it removed from the majority of modern games. The majority of competitive players hate random game mechanics, because it makes it near impossible to truly have a equitable and fair match. A match could be easily shifted because of an random outcome neither team had any real direct control over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This gentleman's reasons for restricting jump are based on misconceptions of how the game actually works.
You should be able to get off one, two solid bites off on a marine you get the drop on. You should be EXPECTING them to spazz out and jump everywhere the second you bite them once or twice. It's not randomness -- it happens every time you bite a marine, they try to dodge you instinctively. Instead of mashing W and M1 and greedily trying to take the kill then, <b>wait</b> a split second, <b>stop</b> moving forward, <i>WATCH</i> what your opponent does, <i>utilize</i> the advantage you already have at hand (one or two bites in and on top of an opponent who only has a rough idea of where exactly you are), and <u>finish</u> them off.
Wait, stop, WATCH, utilize, finish. WSWUF, or "SWUF" training back in basic on Mars.
First of all, it does create randomness in their movement by allowing them to hop quickly out of view and pretty much move any direction in a 360 degree area on a pin head. Second, you're telling me a skulk, or any kharaa unit for that matter, should stand still in the middle of an engagement so they can track a marines movement; I think you have rines and Kharaa all backwards. Kharaa are the fast, melee units, and being so they are the ones who need to be tracked steadily. Rines, being the ranged class, are the ones who are suppose to hold still, track their target, and kill them before they can get on top of them. Standing still during an engagement, as any kharaa unit other than an onos, especially with multiple rines, for more than a second, is a guaranteed death, but you're pretty much admitting the current rine jumping system requires this, yet you are trying to defend it. I'm sorry, but your logic makes no sense to me.
Also, what I do is do strafe runs at rines until, after their third or fourth jump, they are finally exhausted. Far more effective than standing still and getting mowed down by any rine with a brain cell in their head, but it is still doesn't completely deal with the randomness of rine hopping because sometimes I guess the strafe direction wrong based on where the Marine spastically hopped to. It's frustrating and removes the reward for playing a smart skulks and getting the jump on a rine. Lastly, if they're a good marine, they can rine hop away from the second bite easily. I do it all the time. The moment you get damaged, just hop in some random direction, and usually you can escape the ambush with ease.
<!--quoteo(post=2036678:date=Nov 28 2012, 03:13 PM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 28 2012, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To those who say "learn to play skulk" I say: learn to aim as a marine so you don't have to dodge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between:
Being able to perfectly track a skulk or group of skulks and shoot them all down before they get to your feet (also take into account clip size, reload time, cloak, sneaking up on you etc.)
and
Being able to follow a marine who's jumped a 1-2 metres to the left/right.
Even the best marines have to dodge sometimes... but only a newbie skulk gets completely confused over a marine jumping to the side.
<!--quoteo(post=2037420:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:37 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Nov 29 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rine hopping adds a frustrating randomness to battles by giving rines a mechanic which makes their movement in battle completely arratic and random. This forces aliens, to a degree, to have to guess where to aim and hope the rine jumped that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk hopping adds a frustrating randomness to battles by giving skulks a mechanic which makes their movement in battle completely erratic and random. This forces marines, to a degree, to have to guess where to aim and hope the skulk jumped that way.
I like how both of you argue against marine hopping and utterly fail to see the other side of the same coin, state opinions as facts, demand sound reasoning from others but write things that contradict what you just said two sentences ago.
No, nailertin, I understand that very well. However, the skulks are based solely on melee combat and speed. It isn't an equitable or logical comparison one bit. You're trying to compare the movement mechanics of a ranged unit, that is superior at any distance other than melee, to that of a melee unit, who has to close distances to even cause any damage. It would be like trying to make the comparison between an exo and an onos and demanding the exo run just as fast as the onos and be able to jump just like the onos. So no, I didn't ignore this. Instead, I considered logically the role of each unit. We should be asking what role each one is suppose to serve for their team and how they should play to serve that role. They aren't symmetrical units one bit, and being so, their movement systems shouldn't be compared in order to make judgements and game mechanic choices. On a side note, I also think the skulks hopping is not the best solution either because of the randomness it creates, but being that they're melee units going up against a arsenal of ranged weapons, I tend to forgive it more. I much more prefer the old mini-leap alternative to wall jumping and skulk hopping, but that is a whole different idea and thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2035965:date=Nov 27 2012, 12:42 PM:name=Jarl Ballin')--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jarl Ballin' @ Nov 27 2012, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Incorrect. While holding sprint and jumping forward and to the side you achieve an insane amount of air acceleration and your jumps to not slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should stop playing on modded servers.
Holding down sprint does not increase height of jump and when you land you're slightly slowed for a bit and cannot sprint during that time.
While you have max rine acceleration in the first jump it is not something you can repeat over and over like a skulk, otherwise rines would be bhopping all over the place.
<!--quoteo(post=2038175:date=Nov 30 2012, 08:35 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Nov 30 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, nailertin, I understand that very well. However, the skulks are based solely on melee combat and speed. It isn't an equitable or logical comparison one bit. You're trying to compare the movement mechanics of a ranged unit, that is superior at any distance other than melee, to that of a melee unit, who has to close distances to even cause any damage. It would be like trying to make the comparison between an exo and an onos and demanding the exo run just as fast as the onos and be able to jump just like the onos. So no, I didn't ignore this. Instead, I considered logically the role of each unit. We should be asking what role each one is suppose to serve for their team and how they should play to serve that role. They aren't symmetrical units one bit, and being so, their movement systems shouldn't be compared in order to make judgements and game mechanic choices. On a side note, I also think the skulks hopping is not the best solution either because of the randomness it creates, but being that they're melee units going up against a arsenal of ranged weapons, I tend to forgive it more. I much more prefer the old mini-leap alternative to wall jumping and skulk hopping, but that is a whole different idea and thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, a marine's role is a slow ranged unit, so they shouldn't be agile. The thing is, they aren't.
An exo movement shouldn't be like onos movement. But a regular marine's movement isn't like skulk movement so I fail to see the point.
Frankly I'd rather see a accuracy BONUS given to marines that don't jump around like noobs on crack. Reward SKILL and not a person's dexterity in spamming the jump key. If a person can stand still, or even crouch, (making him even more vulnerable) then give him that accuracy bonus (tighter bullet spread) because if he is a poor shot he's dead meat for sure. Reward skill, not button spamming.
<!--quoteo(post=2038248:date=Dec 1 2012, 12:17 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 1 2012, 12:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Frankly I'd rather see a accuracy BONUS given to marines that don't jump around like noobs on crack. Reward SKILL and not a person's dexterity in spamming the jump key. If a person can stand still, or even crouch, (making him even more vulnerable) then give him that accuracy bonus (tighter bullet spread) because if he is a poor shot he's dead meat for sure. Reward skill, not button spamming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 weapons all have perfect accuracy anyway, and jumping does make accuracy harder naturally. Its more difficult to hit a target if you are moving up and down.
<!--quoteo(post=2035683:date=Nov 27 2012, 05:24 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 27 2012, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->learn to aim with skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
marines already can't run backwards. A good skulk can easily follow the movements. And sticking next to a marine as if humping its leg makes it even more difficult for the marine to target the skulk
<!--quoteo(post=2038248:date=Dec 1 2012, 01:17 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 1 2012, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Frankly I'd rather see a accuracy BONUS given to marines that don't jump around like noobs on crack. Reward SKILL and not a person's dexterity in spamming the jump key. If a person can stand still, or even crouch, (making him even more vulnerable) then give him that accuracy bonus (tighter bullet spread) because if he is a poor shot he's dead meat for sure. Reward skill, not button spamming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes alot of skill to jump and avoid a skulk and kill it. Especiallly if mutiple skulks attack you. Simply jumping isn't enough. Its the skill of being able to multi task dodging and shooting that makes you a pro. Not CoD stand still crouch and take a shot.
Dr. RocksoJoin Date: 2010-11-20Member: 75114Members
edited December 2012
+1
This is worse than bunny-hopping in the original HL engine.
I have to say, as I abuse this feature myself, it needs to be fixed. If not, consider boosting the bite impact area...
<u>this seriously renders skulks useless, especially as a close-quarter combat unit -- and you thought the skulk was useless at long range when dealing with sniper-toting bunny-jumping marines</u>.
<u><b>Please, check out CS:GO -- they did a decent job on this. (First couple of jumps are normal... 3rd and 4th diminish until you cant jump for several seconds.)</b></u>
<!--quoteo(post=2038248:date=Dec 1 2012, 01:17 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 1 2012, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Frankly I'd rather see a accuracy BONUS given to marines that don't jump around like noobs on crack. Reward SKILL and not a person's dexterity in spamming the jump key. If a person can stand still, or even crouch, (making him even more vulnerable) then give him that accuracy bonus (tighter bullet spread) because if he is a poor shot he's dead meat for sure. Reward skill, not button spamming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't a bad idea from a pure gameplay perspective. The only thing to consider is that presuming jetpacks get to fire at regular accuracy (i.e. the accuracy you would get standing still), does it make sense that a jump would trigger more inaccurate firing and jetpacks wouldn't? Of course you could apply it to jetpacks too, but it might make them too underpowered (may aswell keep your feet on the floor to fire accurately at the aliens rather than fly around everywhere with your bullets going nowhere).
This is worse than bunny-hopping in the original HL engine.
I have to say, as I abuse this feature myself, it needs to be fixed. If not, consider boosting the bite impact area...
<u>this seriously renders skulks useless, especially as a close-quarter combat unit -- and you thought the skulk was useless at long range when dealing with sniper-toting bunny-jumping marines</u>.
<u><b>Please, check out CS:GO -- they did a decent job on this. (First couple of jumps are normal... 3rd and 4th diminish until you cant jump for several seconds.)</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is it even remotely worse than bunny-hopping? You cannot jump indefinitely at full speed and height, and you certainly don't gain speed (instead, you lose speed and height rather quickly).
And I haven't played CS:GO, but purely from what you described, the jumping is more restricted in NS2. In NS2 your jumps diminish after the 1st jump, not on the 3rd or 4th?
<!--quoteo(post=2035303:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:48 PM:name=Jarl Ballin')--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jarl Ballin' @ Nov 26 2012, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Makes no sense. Everyone knows there's an advantage at looking down upon an opponent rather then looking up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2038637:date=Dec 1 2012, 09:17 PM:name=Dr. Rockso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dr. Rockso @ Dec 1 2012, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this seriously renders skulks useless, especially as a close-quarter combat unit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Killing jumping marines is something any good player can do; they cannot jump out of bite range and they have no air control, making their path predictable. Bad skulks tend to have bad spatial awareness, which is the only reason jumping is at all effective. Crank your FOV up and keep track of the marine.
<!--quoteo(post=2035633:date=Nov 27 2012, 08:05 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Nov 27 2012, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being a veteran NS1 player, I agree with this 100%. The "rine-hop" is what I call it in NS2 is ridiculous, I abuse it every time I play marine and it's dam effective haha. There shouldn't be any hopping on either side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Get rid of bunny hopping altogether.
<!--quoteo(post=2035705:date=Nov 27 2012, 12:32 PM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Nov 27 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have a huge penalty to speed when backpedaling. And I've never seen myself get slowed bouncing around as a marine. The only rule of thumb you need is that you'll go farther, faster, as long as you're jumping forward. Aim to where you want to dodge, jump forward, turn around, smack Skulk.
And a bouncing skulk is suddenly at a disadvantage because they can't stop the bounce to catch the marine. Which turns into a crazy dance filled with bullets and unregistered bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and does anybody enjoy this moronic 'let's-dance' where both players are frantically jumping around each other in circles? Anybody? Didn't think so. So let's get rid of it, shall we?
<!--quoteo(post=2041503:date=Dec 7 2012, 09:07 AM:name=Apheirox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Apheirox @ Dec 7 2012, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. Get rid of bunny hopping altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please stop posting stuff like this. Or at least go play some damn games. NS2 does not have bunny hopping. Bunny hopping is a skill based mechanic where jumping can maintain high speeds using a quake engine bug. It was embraced as a fun mechanic that promoted skill.
<!--quoteo(post=2041503:date=Dec 7 2012, 09:07 AM:name=Apheirox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Apheirox @ Dec 7 2012, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... and does anybody enjoy this moronic 'let's-dance' where both players are frantically jumping around each other in circles? Anybody? Didn't think so. So let's get rid of it, shall we?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes people do. Anyone who enjoyed online shooters produced before 2007, back when we didn't produce brown pseudo-realistic WARFACE shooters. Games then endorsed accurate shooting, mobility and high awareness. Modern games seem to just guarantee kills to whoever see's the other first.
Stop being terrible and play the game until you get better. Thats how shooters used to work.
<!--quoteo(post=2041573:date=Dec 7 2012, 11:17 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 7 2012, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop posting stuff like this. Or at least go play some damn games. NS2 does not have bunny hopping. Bunny hopping is a skill based mechanic where jumping can maintain high speeds using a quake engine bug. It was embraced as a fun mechanic that promoted skill.
Yes people do. Anyone who enjoyed online shooters produced before 2007, back when we didn't produce brown pseudo-realistic WARFACE shooters. Games then endorsed accurate shooting, mobility and high awareness. Modern games seem to just guarantee kills to whoever see's the other first.
Stop being terrible and play the game until you get better. Thats how shooters used to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a glitch from an engine that people exploit to gain an unfair edge over legit players. You admitted yourself it was a quake engine BUG. You know, creating hacks for games is "skill", as well. I suppose you think those are fair game, too?
Ellen RipleyJoin Date: 2012-11-06Member: 167803Members
<!--quoteo(post=2041585:date=Dec 7 2012, 12:51 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Dec 7 2012, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a glitch from an engine that people exploit to gain an unfair edge over legit players. You admitted yourself it was a quake engine BUG. You know, creating hacks for games is "skill", as well. I suppose you think those are fair game, too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a bug, but rather an artifact of the way the physics and player controller worked. Like skiing in Tribes, as well as long jumping and round jumping in goldsource (which spawned an entire modded game mode in CS and CS:Source). I wouldn't have those games without their little eccentricities. It does not give you an unfair advantage because the mechanic is there for anyone to practice and use. It is your choice or lack of coordination that prevents you from using it, nothing more. To claim that it is unfair is to claim that any skill based mechanic which allows one player to triumph over another through practice and dedication is somehow "unfair".
Being able to push game mechanics beyond the plateau of skill achieved by the average player is part of what makes a game awesome in my book.
Either way, NS2 <i><u>doesn't have bunny hopping</u></i>. It has jumping. Jumping which declines in effectiveness over a short period when spammed.
<!--quoteo(post=2041603:date=Dec 7 2012, 12:35 PM:name=Ellen Ripley)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ellen Ripley @ Dec 7 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being able to push game mechanics beyond the plateau of skill achieved by the average player is part of what makes a game awesome in my book.
Either way, NS2 <i><u>doesn't have bunny hopping</u></i>. It has jumping. Jumping which declines in effectiveness over a short period when spammed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this thread proves how misinformed most players are about movement mechanics back in ns1. watching some people pop terms like "air acceleration" without knowing what it means is just... *sigh*
i don't see how this: 1) is related to bunnyhopping 2) is related to skill-based movement 3) has ANYTHING to do with air acceleration (still laughing over this because, seriously, how misinformed can one get?) 4) is a problem when you can just look higher and jump along with the marine when he jumps?
the current implementation of jumping for marines in ns2 is not even moderately close to bunnyhopping. in fact "hopping" doesn't even make sense here. it's just marines jumping out of your way and that jumps in ns2 appear to be vertically higher than in ns1.
this has nothing to do with game mechanics, as bad as they are in ns2 already. it's just you who has a problem keeping your screen fixed on the marine and moving along with him. if he jumps, you jump with him. problem almost solved. just gotta move your mouse now. i don't think that's very hard?
surely you don't expect yourself to kill every single marine just by holding down your left mouse button and the move forward button? if so, sorry things aren't as easy for you as you think it should be.
and do you know bite range is actually further than it looks? i recommend spawning a bot and testing your bites on it to get a feel for how far your bite can actually reach. you'd be surprised.
Comments
Pretty sure they widened the core bite cylinder when they added glancing, was around the time they changed from cone to cylinder type bite "boxes".
Reality is a good skulk v good marine in cqb is pretty much 50-50, model collision is poor and marines clip over aliens too easily.
Also you can jump around like crazy which whilst not doing a lot it does seem to effect collision as skulks try to bite (skulks seem to slip underneath more) and does frequently buy you enough time to win more often than not.
Adding some kind of jump penalty to marines is just absurd and downright asinine. If you are close enough to a marine that he can jump as a valid maneuver and you just can't kill him again and again, then you are a crappy skulk. That’s it. You need to get better.
The thread is absurd. By the time the skulk is close enough to the marine that jumping matters for the marine, the skulk already has all the advantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And don't forget that with invisibility aliens don't even need any skill to get to biting distance to marines. It's pretty silly.
Indeed. Nerf the 100% cloak effect please and then we can talk about jump nerf.
Adding some kind of jump penalty to marines is just absurd and downright asinine. If you are close enough to a marine that he can jump as a valid maneuver and you just can't kill him again and again, then you are a crappy skulk. That’s it. You need to get better.
The thread is absurd. By the time the skulk is close enough to the marine that jumping matters for the marine, the skulk already has all the advantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. This is a terrible thread basically screaming for lowering any skill ceilings to the floor. Next he will ask for auto aim on marines, because thats the impression I get from the OP - aliens should always win in melee, marines always win at range.
Always is a bad bad word.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just remove the jump penalty and reduce the jump hight and/or speed, that said UWE seems to be flat out against any decent movement system tbh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally think the wall jumping system is fantastic. I can really get screaming across a map and come flying into engagements pretty dang fast using wall jumping. It does need smoothed out some, but to act like it isn't a skill based movement is ridiculous and shows a bias.
Lastly, cloaking does need worked on. I think, when moving, aliens should shimmer a tiny bit to give aware marines a chance. It also would require aliens to use a little more thought and skill when using camo. However, that isn't what this thread is about so stop trying to ignore the conversation at hand because you don't agree with the OP.
You sir. Nailed it.
You should be able to get off one, two solid bites off on a marine you get the drop on. You should be EXPECTING them to spazz out and jump everywhere the second you bite them once or twice. It's not randomness -- it happens every time you bite a marine, they try to dodge you instinctively. Instead of mashing W and M1 and greedily trying to take the kill then, <b>wait</b> a split second, <b>stop</b> moving forward, <i>WATCH</i> what your opponent does, <i>utilize</i> the advantage you already have at hand (one or two bites in and on top of an opponent who only has a rough idea of where exactly you are), and <u>finish</u> them off.
Wait, stop, WATCH, utilize, finish. WSWUF, or "SWUF" training back in basic on Mars.
Also, what I do is do strafe runs at rines until, after their third or fourth jump, they are finally exhausted. Far more effective than standing still and getting mowed down by any rine with a brain cell in their head, but it is still doesn't completely deal with the randomness of rine hopping because sometimes I guess the strafe direction wrong based on where the Marine spastically hopped to. It's frustrating and removes the reward for playing a smart skulks and getting the jump on a rine. Lastly, if they're a good marine, they can rine hop away from the second bite easily. I do it all the time. The moment you get damaged, just hop in some random direction, and usually you can escape the ambush with ease.
There's a difference between:
Being able to perfectly track a skulk or group of skulks and shoot them all down before they get to your feet (also take into account clip size, reload time, cloak, sneaking up on you etc.)
and
Being able to follow a marine who's jumped a 1-2 metres to the left/right.
Even the best marines have to dodge sometimes... but only a newbie skulk gets completely confused over a marine jumping to the side.
Skulk hopping adds a frustrating randomness to battles by giving skulks a mechanic which makes their movement in battle completely erratic and random. This forces marines, to a degree, to have to guess where to aim and hope the skulk jumped that way.
I like how both of you argue against marine hopping and utterly fail to see the other side of the same coin, state opinions as facts, demand sound reasoning from others but write things that contradict what you just said two sentences ago.
You should stop playing on modded servers.
Holding down sprint does not increase height of jump and when you land you're slightly slowed for a bit and cannot sprint during that time.
While you have max rine acceleration in the first jump it is not something you can repeat over and over like a skulk, otherwise rines would be bhopping all over the place.
Yes, a marine's role is a slow ranged unit, so they shouldn't be agile. The thing is, they aren't.
An exo movement shouldn't be like onos movement. But a regular marine's movement isn't like skulk movement so I fail to see the point.
NS2 weapons all have perfect accuracy anyway, and jumping does make accuracy harder naturally. Its more difficult to hit a target if you are moving up and down.
This.
marines already can't run backwards. A good skulk can easily follow the movements. And sticking next to a marine as if humping its leg makes it even more difficult for the marine to target the skulk
<!--quoteo(post=2038248:date=Dec 1 2012, 01:17 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 1 2012, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Frankly I'd rather see a accuracy BONUS given to marines that don't jump around like noobs on crack. Reward SKILL and not a person's dexterity in spamming the jump key. If a person can stand still, or even crouch, (making him even more vulnerable) then give him that accuracy bonus (tighter bullet spread) because if he is a poor shot he's dead meat for sure. Reward skill, not button spamming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes alot of skill to jump and avoid a skulk and kill it. Especiallly if mutiple skulks attack you.
Simply jumping isn't enough. Its the skill of being able to multi task dodging and shooting that makes you a pro. Not CoD stand still crouch and take a shot.
This is worse than bunny-hopping in the original HL engine.
I have to say, as I abuse this feature myself, it needs to be fixed. If not, consider boosting the bite impact area...
<u>this seriously renders skulks useless, especially as a close-quarter combat unit -- and you thought the skulk was useless at long range when dealing with sniper-toting bunny-jumping marines</u>.
<u><b>Please, check out CS:GO -- they did a decent job on this. (First couple of jumps are normal... 3rd and 4th diminish until you cant jump for several seconds.)</b></u>
This isn't a bad idea from a pure gameplay perspective. The only thing to consider is that presuming jetpacks get to fire at regular accuracy (i.e. the accuracy you would get standing still), does it make sense that a jump would trigger more inaccurate firing and jetpacks wouldn't? Of course you could apply it to jetpacks too, but it might make them too underpowered (may aswell keep your feet on the floor to fire accurately at the aliens rather than fly around everywhere with your bullets going nowhere).
<!--quoteo(post=2038637:date=Dec 1 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Dr. Rockso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dr. Rockso @ Dec 1 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1
This is worse than bunny-hopping in the original HL engine.
I have to say, as I abuse this feature myself, it needs to be fixed. If not, consider boosting the bite impact area...
<u>this seriously renders skulks useless, especially as a close-quarter combat unit -- and you thought the skulk was useless at long range when dealing with sniper-toting bunny-jumping marines</u>.
<u><b>Please, check out CS:GO -- they did a decent job on this. (First couple of jumps are normal... 3rd and 4th diminish until you cant jump for several seconds.)</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is it even remotely worse than bunny-hopping? You cannot jump indefinitely at full speed and height, and you certainly don't gain speed (instead, you lose speed and height rather quickly).
And I haven't played CS:GO, but purely from what you described, the jumping is more restricted in NS2. In NS2 your jumps diminish after the 1st jump, not on the 3rd or 4th?
you never played goldeneye for the n64 have you
Killing jumping marines is something any good player can do; they cannot jump out of bite range and they have no air control, making their path predictable. Bad skulks tend to have bad spatial awareness, which is the only reason jumping is at all effective. Crank your FOV up and keep track of the marine.
Exactly. Get rid of bunny hopping altogether.
<!--quoteo(post=2035705:date=Nov 27 2012, 12:32 PM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Nov 27 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have a huge penalty to speed when backpedaling. And I've never seen myself get slowed bouncing around as a marine. The only rule of thumb you need is that you'll go farther, faster, as long as you're jumping forward. Aim to where you want to dodge, jump forward, turn around, smack Skulk.
And a bouncing skulk is suddenly at a disadvantage because they can't stop the bounce to catch the marine. Which turns into a crazy dance filled with bullets and unregistered bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and does anybody enjoy this moronic 'let's-dance' where both players are frantically jumping around each other in circles? Anybody? Didn't think so. So let's get rid of it, shall we?
Please stop posting stuff like this. Or at least go play some damn games. NS2 does not have bunny hopping. Bunny hopping is a skill based mechanic where jumping can maintain high speeds using a quake engine bug. It was embraced as a fun mechanic that promoted skill.
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<!--quoteo(post=2041503:date=Dec 7 2012, 09:07 AM:name=Apheirox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Apheirox @ Dec 7 2012, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... and does anybody enjoy this moronic 'let's-dance' where both players are frantically jumping around each other in circles? Anybody? Didn't think so. So let's get rid of it, shall we?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes people do. Anyone who enjoyed online shooters produced before 2007, back when we didn't produce brown pseudo-realistic WARFACE shooters. Games then endorsed accurate shooting, mobility and high awareness. Modern games seem to just guarantee kills to whoever see's the other first.
Stop being terrible and play the game until you get better. Thats how shooters used to work.
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Yes people do. Anyone who enjoyed online shooters produced before 2007, back when we didn't produce brown pseudo-realistic WARFACE shooters. Games then endorsed accurate shooting, mobility and high awareness. Modern games seem to just guarantee kills to whoever see's the other first.
Stop being terrible and play the game until you get better. Thats how shooters used to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a glitch from an engine that people exploit to gain an unfair edge over legit players. You admitted yourself it was a quake engine BUG. You know, creating hacks for games is "skill", as well. I suppose you think those are fair game, too?
It's not a bug, but rather an artifact of the way the physics and player controller worked. Like skiing in Tribes, as well as long jumping and round jumping in goldsource (which spawned an entire modded game mode in CS and CS:Source). I wouldn't have those games without their little eccentricities. It does not give you an unfair advantage because the mechanic is there for anyone to practice and use. It is your choice or lack of coordination that prevents you from using it, nothing more. To claim that it is unfair is to claim that any skill based mechanic which allows one player to triumph over another through practice and dedication is somehow "unfair".
Being able to push game mechanics beyond the plateau of skill achieved by the average player is part of what makes a game awesome in my book.
Either way, NS2 <i><u>doesn't have bunny hopping</u></i>. It has jumping. Jumping which declines in effectiveness over a short period when spammed.
Either way, NS2 <i><u>doesn't have bunny hopping</u></i>. It has jumping. Jumping which declines in effectiveness over a short period when spammed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. On both counts.
i don't see how this:
1) is related to bunnyhopping
2) is related to skill-based movement
3) has ANYTHING to do with air acceleration (still laughing over this because, seriously, how misinformed can one get?)
4) is a problem when you can just look higher and jump along with the marine when he jumps?
the current implementation of jumping for marines in ns2 is not even moderately close to bunnyhopping. in fact "hopping" doesn't even make sense here. it's just marines jumping out of your way and that jumps in ns2 appear to be vertically higher than in ns1.
this has nothing to do with game mechanics, as bad as they are in ns2 already. it's just you who has a problem keeping your screen fixed on the marine and moving along with him. if he jumps, you jump with him. problem almost solved. just gotta move your mouse now. i don't think that's very hard?
surely you don't expect yourself to kill every single marine just by holding down your left mouse button and the move forward button? if so, sorry things aren't as easy for you as you think it should be.
and do you know bite range is actually further than it looks? i recommend spawning a bot and testing your bites on it to get a feel for how far your bite can actually reach. you'd be surprised.