Camoflaged aliens... How to deal with them on the move ?
»Comrade«
Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169419Members
Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169419Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Tips ?</div>Hey everyone.
I was wondering how marines are dealing with the camoflaged aliens that can seemingly walk right next to you and be invisible ?
If i have a shotgun i can sometimes turn around and shoot them after the first bite and kill...
but it seems like I have absolutely no defence for this at all, especially if you're in a public game the commander isn't going to be scanning all the time yet it feels like thats what I need. I can't even hear them because they walk. It seems like any advantage you had by distance as a marine is gone and up close an alien can do alot of damage, especially if it happens to be an invisible onus!
I'm not sure but it feels like ever since theyve introduced this marines are suffering badly (ns2 stats anyone?)
I'm a veteran from NS1 and played in the beta, but I play pub games only>
So, how do you deal with this problem ? Suggestions or tips appreciated!
I was wondering how marines are dealing with the camoflaged aliens that can seemingly walk right next to you and be invisible ?
If i have a shotgun i can sometimes turn around and shoot them after the first bite and kill...
but it seems like I have absolutely no defence for this at all, especially if you're in a public game the commander isn't going to be scanning all the time yet it feels like thats what I need. I can't even hear them because they walk. It seems like any advantage you had by distance as a marine is gone and up close an alien can do alot of damage, especially if it happens to be an invisible onus!
I'm not sure but it feels like ever since theyve introduced this marines are suffering badly (ns2 stats anyone?)
I'm a veteran from NS1 and played in the beta, but I play pub games only>
So, how do you deal with this problem ? Suggestions or tips appreciated!
Comments
Prefire in common areas
<b>Team up with 1-2 other marines</b>
Your team needs to move in larger groups once camo is discovered
Res nodes can no longer be build by one person unless the commander scans first
Aliens will very likely get a 2nd hive with camo, but will struggle horribly to get a 3rd usually and that's where you exploit them
Onos without celerity or a defensive upgrade are quite bad and exos are your best bet against camo anyway so just hold out for a good exo push
If you have 5 or more res nodes than a command can usually drop a bunch of forward observatories and make cloaking useless
Jetpacks are terrible against cloak
Maybe MACs will get a passive detector researchable upgrade in the future and have utterly terrible EMP by default
-
place mines all around you
wait.
Not actually a practical solution but it might work.
The worst part is how fast aliens can have cloak.. its too soon IMO. Just about 2:00 in they can have cloak and marines have nothing to combat this. Its ridiculous to suggest constant scans and building a bunch of Obs that early on. The only 'fix' to me is to make the upgrade path take at least 4 minutes, or give marines a break with the upgrade time & cost it takes to get to armor 1. That way you can take a bite and have time to react instead of dying in 2 bites. Right now it is very unbalanced and unless the marine team is significantly better than the alien team , aliens will win an early victory most times if they go shade first. If the teams are closely matched the aliens usually win because the marines simply can not expand out for minutes 3-10 until they finally get some decent upgrades. But by then the alien Kham has usually taken most of the map and its just too late for marines to come back.
Camo definitely feels like it gives aliens incredible early map control compared with the other early choices, and if there's a balance problem it's mainly that the counters which marines can employ are so expensive.
I'm not entirely convinced yet that a change is necessary, but the tweaks which immediately sprung to mind (being a professional game designer) were (PICK ONE:)
1. Give Observatories a purchase option which temporarily (5 min?) increases passive range (+33%?) at a moderate cost (5 rez?)
2. Reduce Scan radius, but reduce Scan cost.
3. Reduce Observatory build time and cost, but also reduce health and radius. (So you can have more spread across the map, but they're crappier and you would nearly always want redundant obs in base.)
Aggressive counter-pushing is key on the marine side. Make sure you get your marines in groups and scan areas they are about to enter - that will scare aliens off by itself already. The many scans may seem expensive to you, but it's made up for by the medipacks that you save because your marines will have the upper hand to initiate combat and get less hits by easily focusing fire before aliens approach. It also allows you to hold more extractor locations that will make up for the scans as well. Tech progression is not as important at this point as pushing the aliens back so you can establish map control before they do. Quickly let your marines build power, an extractor and an observatory at key positions in the map and then establish forward bases with phase gates that will help to secure your push. But never forget to cover the entrances to the rooms with scans.
Haha, yeah right. Maybe if the alien team is a bunch of complete noobs that would work. Camo gives total map control because the marines can't see them until the aliens want to be seen, AKA after they have set up a nice ambush spot and pounce for a free bite or two before the marines can react. How do you not get that this gives them a huge advantage when marines try to go capping res nodes??
Yes, if the alien team is composed of 100% fail, that's how it goes.
In reality, most players run and cloak only before battle, and wait for scans to expire to attack if they don't have number supremacy.
Also, those "2 guys going around capping the rest of the map" get insta-eaten by one skulk, and the marine team slowly dies an economic death when that "hive push with scans" fails, because all the res was spent on scanning, and when they respawn in base, they find they have neither res for jetpacks, nor for upgrades.
There's one way to deal with camo: stay in groups and have a scanning commander. Jetpacks also help due to increased mobility, but good luck getting to jetpacks if you don't have a prime quality team AND commander.
The worst part is how fast aliens can have cloak.. its too soon IMO. Just about 2:00 in they can have cloak and marines have nothing to combat this. Its ridiculous to suggest constant scans and building a bunch of Obs that early on. The only 'fix' to me is to make the upgrade path take at least 4 minutes, or give marines a break with the upgrade time & cost it takes to get to armor 1. That way you can take a bite and have time to react instead of dying in 2 bites. Right now it is very unbalanced and unless the marine team is significantly better than the alien team , aliens will win an early victory most times if they go shade first. If the teams are closely matched the aliens usually win because the marines simply can not expand out for minutes 3-10 until they finally get some decent upgrades. But by then the alien Kham has usually taken most of the map and its just too late for marines to come back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens basically set themselves behind 5 minutes in res production if they get shade too quickly. You really need to have your first 2 external resources up before you get any upgrade. It's too damaging in the early game to rush shade before you have any economy going. That being said, the early shade, the one that comes right after 2 nozzles, that build is also very powerful (I still say it's very easy to counter effectively as a marine team though if you play it properly, you would be shocked how bad it feels to be scanned out as a skulk who just spent a full minute positioning for a sneaky camo ambush)
Seeing as it take 3 bites (2 bites 1 para) to kill an A0 marine I dont see how getting 1 bite in is that much of an issue.
Camo is finally effective again and fun, sure you cant see them...thats the whole point of it.
Obs instantly de-cloak any aliens within range and once PG's are up there is no reason for marines not to move in decent sized packs.
It gives aliens an ambush advantage but that can be removed by a comm pinging ahead of a push (requires team work).
Marines dont need to have a counter to everything that aliens have (though obs are counters to shades/camo)...at some point the aliens upgrades have to be useful for them to use.
This is absolutely not how camo works in pubs.
It's basically free kills for skulks which translates into easy map control and easy wins for aliens. Camo is ridiculously overpowered, nevermind the easy-to-perform exploits with it.
Some ~15 hours of pub play last 3 days and have yet to see a single alien round lost when going camo first. It is very op atm, least in pubs.
In its current state it should be renamed to invisibility. :>
It's the commander's job to keep scan areas where marines are or about to enter, and drop obs at crucial places.
Camo is actually relatively easy to counter if the commander knows where and when to scan because
those skulks will be stationary targets for a short time when they are de-cloaked.
Sadly, pub commanders either doens't know how to counter, or stingy enough to not scan at all
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124846" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=124846</a>
Shade gives you a pretty nice advantage early on when well executed, but it starts to lose it's worth mid to late game if you can't keep a shade network going, which is quite difficult to do down the road. The lack of movement and defense upgrades in favor for camo/silence don't offer much once battles get larger and more focused where it's more about speed and endurance rather than straight stealth.
Aggressive counter-pushing is key on the marine side. Make sure you get your marines in groups and scan areas they are about to enter - that will scare aliens off by itself already. The many scans may seem expensive to you, but it's made up for by the medipacks that you save because your marines will have the upper hand to initiate combat and get less hits by easily focusing fire before aliens approach. It also allows you to hold more extractor locations that will make up for the scans as well. Tech progression is not as important at this point as pushing the aliens back so you can establish map control before they do. Quickly let your marines build power, an extractor and an observatory at key positions in the map and then establish forward bases with phase gates that will help to secure your push. But never forget to cover the entrances to the rooms with scans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand! Where do all these "Shade is easy to counter" people come from? Like, think about it for a second. YOU ARE INVISIBLE. First bite is GUARANTEED without taking ANY DAMAGE. Rawr!
"If they don't get a second Hive up soon" YEA BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO HOLD 4 HARVESTERS WITH CAMO when the whole marine team is stuck in 2 places losing 1 player every time a camo skulk spawns. GODDAMNIT.
I also love how scanning instantly kills skulks or atleast makes them useless. DURRP, hay boss wat about I go back 10 yards wait 10 sec and then try again? No?
There is no counter to Shade play currently. Just accept it and figure out a nerf without returning camo to its previous uselessness.
EDIT: Maps with double res are decent vs. camo tho. Like veil, group rush nano and sub, get phase and obs in both, then just sit tight for 30min and push out with exos. 8D
Camo is finally effective again and fun, sure you cant see them...thats the whole point of it.
Obs instantly de-cloak any aliens within range and once PG's are up there is no reason for marines not to move in decent sized packs.
It gives aliens an ambush advantage but that can be removed by a comm pinging ahead of a push (requires team work).
Marines dont need to have a counter to everything that aliens have (though obs are counters to shades/camo)...at some point the aliens upgrades have to be useful for them to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was literally painful to read.
1st hive Camo -> All-in shotgun push will kick ass, without the extra moment and spawns from shift or Carapace, skulks get ****ed up. (+1Dmg for extra bang)
OR
ARC PUSH - XD
The problem right now is Pubs very rarely have the coordination to have 90% of there players attack a hive. Camo by no means is overpowered but could use a rework, I like the "only 100%invis when not moving".
EDIT: Remember this is an RTS everyone, sometimes you need to exploit timing.
Look at SC - when your opponent fast expands, if you don't quickly punch them in the face your not going to be in good shape for the rest of the game!
#Meta-Game <3
EDIT2: Super sleepy, so please understand the lackluster post.
I have also other kind of suggestion for camo fix which you can read here <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125380" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=125380</a>
I think this would lead to fun "does he stop before I stop" cat & mouse game. Like imagine 3 skulks closing down on a marine running along a corridor, then the marine suddenly stops and all the skulks are like FREEZE GUYS - then the marine nervously scans around, not seeing anything, ...eep! Maybe faking a few steps, trying to bait some skulkies to move.
You mean a rework to take it from ridiculously OP to utterly useless again? Because that's what that "rework" would do :-D .
Also, not all analogies from RTS apply to NS2, unfortunately. For example, SC units aren't free. In NS2 the "basic" units (assault rifles vs skulks) are. So, every game is always a "rush."
If they go fast Camo in a game with less then 12 players (6v6)...... Shotgun rush there hive (with +1)
If they go fast Camo in a game with less then 18 players (9v9)...... Shotgun rush there hive
If they go fast Camo in a game with less then 24 players (12v12)...... Just rush there hive, cuzz they cant spawn ###### without a shift XD
Seems like a pretty simple fix
Marines are encouraged not to use flashlights currently but if they see the aliens have gone shade tech they might be forced to use them.
Also, not all analogies from RTS apply to NS2, unfortunately. For example, SC units aren't free. In NS2 the "basic" units (assault rifles vs skulks) are. So, every game is always a "rush."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will take first things first, why do you think 100%invis when still would be useless?
I can come up with ways this would be better then the one we have now.
Lets say old-style when moving(note, this is 100% movement speed - not the 20% stuff)
And the instant you stop you go 100% invis!
Now this is a very bad idea, but it reinforces my point. This is not meant to be a nerf but merely a rework, come up with any stats you life for it! basicly Camo should be used for superior positioning, not for a free first bite.
And 2nd of all..... ITS A RTS, BLARG!..... Though your right that skulk rushing has very little downside (2ress ticks per death :P)