Rushing Single Arms Lab. . . good or bad?
MaximumSquid
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
Not familiar with it? It's a solid Marine opener from a Theorycrafting/Math stand point
You build the Armory immediately so you can get an Arms Lab
You then sell the Armory and you should have just enough res to get Armor 1
2 res nodes later and you've pretty well spent all your res for the first minute minus maybe 1 or 2 health packs
Usually I post finished results, but I'm having issues testing this one
Because it's so reliant on what your team does some games it's amazing and other games I watch people die constantly all the way up till +2/+2
When things go well you can get mines fast followed by phase tech
When things go bad it's usually a 2nd IP and shotguns
Either way though fast armor 1 is a good counter for early cloak which is mainly what I use it for when I'm not rushing sentry nest
So good or bad?
If you're not sure then go test a few games with it quick <i>(Marine or Comm)</i>
<i>(I don't need speculation at this point because I'm well into testing the opener)</i>
On maps where the front line is skewed like on Cave it seems to be super effective, but less so on maps like Veil
You build the Armory immediately so you can get an Arms Lab
You then sell the Armory and you should have just enough res to get Armor 1
2 res nodes later and you've pretty well spent all your res for the first minute minus maybe 1 or 2 health packs
Usually I post finished results, but I'm having issues testing this one
Because it's so reliant on what your team does some games it's amazing and other games I watch people die constantly all the way up till +2/+2
When things go well you can get mines fast followed by phase tech
When things go bad it's usually a 2nd IP and shotguns
Either way though fast armor 1 is a good counter for early cloak which is mainly what I use it for when I'm not rushing sentry nest
So good or bad?
If you're not sure then go test a few games with it quick <i>(Marine or Comm)</i>
<i>(I don't need speculation at this point because I'm well into testing the opener)</i>
On maps where the front line is skewed like on Cave it seems to be super effective, but less so on maps like Veil
Comments
I just don't see this strategy getting you anything of tangible value, and the delay in the ability to beacon and phase it incurs can lose a match.
Armor levels and weapon levels are nice, but they don't have nearly as big of an impact as a phase gate somewhere. Then again, when you have a network of 3 phase gates, arms lab is the next logical thing to get. As well as weapons ofc, especially mines, and if there are many lerks, shotguns.
Do we get 100% back from recyc? coz then losing that armoury doesn't matter in the long run.
And maxsquid, you condone medpacks and ammo? I drop them, but get grief these days from the 'boyz, back seat comms always ranting about 'save it for upgrades' ... I'd almost think a medpack or two now and then would have an additional moral benefit too.
IMO, I would do weapons upgrades first, but it all depends on the current situation. If the Marines are quick killers, do weapons 1. If the Aliens are quick killers, do armor 1.
I just don't see this strategy getting you anything of tangible value, and the delay in the ability to beacon and phase it incurs can lose a match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with you on the usefulness of armor 1, but I agree with you at not getting it at the expense of your first armory. The biggest plus of having fast armor ups is that you have A1 W1 faster. I usually fit phase in, rather than rushing it.
It has a lot to do with the phases of the game. In the first 5 minutes aliens are able to do a strong push on the marine base, but after that marines take control of the map until the aliens get their second hive up. During that 10-15 minute period it's arguably usually better for marines to run across the map than to phase, because they protect your RT's and rebuild any that were taken down on the way to wherever they're going. By the time the alien second hive finishes you should have your first set of phase gates up, the reality is you're going to lose ground at this point, you need the phase gates to retain any map presence at all. So I try to hit that timing and squeese in as much armor and weapons before that time as possible. I usually crest weapons 2 finishing just after the second hive finishes, and it REALLY helps marines not to be completely shoved back into a corner by leap skulks as soon as they come out.
My play style is reasonably high risk though. It's effective but dangerous waiting to get things JUST the moment they are needed.
Armor 1's effects are not enough to do anything vs skulks. You will take 3 hits before you die regardless (Armor 0 --> Armor 1 is the same amount of bites to die)
Similar for Weapons 0 and Weapons 1. The amount of gunshots needed to kill a skulk is exactly the same.
For this reason, I suggest you don't recycle an armory and completely give up map control (no phase gate for at least 8 minutes) to rush useless upgrades.
Trust in your marines. Get them to push out early so you have resources to medspam.
Skulks take 1 parasite and 2 full damage bites to kill an A0 marine, but require 3 full damage bites to kill an A1 marine. 10 HP left after 2 full bites at A0, 50HP left after 2 full bites at A1.
Both regular and Cara skulks die in 1 fewer pellet from a shotgun with W1 than W0. However, every weapons upgrade after that does not help the shotgun kill regular skulks any faster (unless there's another ally helping) and you must upgrade both W2 and W3 to receive a 1 pellet reduction in killing cara (5 down from 6 for regular and 7 down from 8 for cara) skulks with the shotgun.
skulks hit by 4 pellets of a W1 shotgun have 14HP left. 10HP left at W2, and 2HP left at W3. Caraskulks hit by 6 pellets w1 have 16hp left, 10HP left at W2, and they die at W3 with an overkill of 2 HP.
W0 AR kills @ 9 and 13 bullets respectively for skulks and cara skulks
W1 AR kills @ 9 and 12
W2 AR kills @ 8 and 11
W2 AR kills @ 7 and 10
So basically, shotguns are MUCH more worth it if you get W1 first. There's little benefit to rushing W1 unless the aliens have rushed craig hive (weapons upgrades counter carapasc for the AR pretty obviously, they get a bullet sunk reduction for every upgrade), or you are going to have a lot of shotguns (hence go armor 1 first)
If your whole team has shotguns pushing the weapons upgrades to the max isn't going to help you out much against skulks unless they also have carapasc
When onos come out weapons upgrades are your best friend. It takes 250 AR bullets to kill an onos at W0 (5 clips without a single missed bullet). At W3 it's 193 bullets. You have saved more than a whole clip of ammo killing the onos, and you can afford a few misses. It's the difference of needed 6 marines to kill an onos vs needing 4 marines to kill an onos. For a carapasc onos it's 330 bullets (6.66 clips) vs 254 bullets (5.08 clips), so AR marines alone against a cara onos are going to have a really hard time. (from 4 marines needed to kill it in a single clip, to 6 marines)
Armor 1's effects are not enough to do anything vs skulks. You will take 3 hits before you die regardless (Armor 0 --> Armor 1 is the same amount of bites to die)
Similar for Weapons 0 and Weapons 1. The amount of gunshots needed to kill a skulk is exactly the same.
For this reason, I suggest you don't recycle an armory and completely give up map control (no phase gate for at least 8 minutes) to rush useless upgrades.
Trust in your marines. Get them to push out early so you have resources to medspam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, but it's 3 full on hits vs a glancing blow and 2 full on hits. Or alternatively, 1 parasite and 2 hits (which MANY good skulks will go for). Armor 1 significantly increases a marines life span against skulks in all but the worst case scenario. Weapons 1 is also an effective counter to carapasc, as it decreases the shots needed for both AR marines and shotgun marines.
Timing Weapons 1 and Shotgun together is also very powerful in all scenarios.
I use health drops occasionally. . .
If someone is alone trying to a defend a room you own obviously you can risk spamming them
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<u><b>Techercizer:</b></u>
I'm not going argue for speculative purposes this time, but I will say that I'm running this strat on a 12on12 if that changes your opinion on the timings
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<u><b>ScardyBob:</b></u>
Skulk rush has been very unpopular these days and they pretty well always fall flat while auto-egg locking a team on big population servers
If you want to talk the first 5 min then obviously stuff like Lerk rush or a Mass Gorge Push is going to have much better odds
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<u><b>Shino:</b></u>
I see you have 1 post. . . no disrespect, but have you played since glancing blows have been added?
Also recycling only nets me a 2 res loss. . . not even worth mentioning especially when the armory in base gets zero use most of the time I command
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<u><b>RobustPenguin:</b></u>
You could do that, but you'll be on 2 nodes instead of 3 and not have any res to beacon so what's the point in building it early?
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Spoke with a friend and he does Arms Lab rush all the time, but hangs onto the armory
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Timing Weapons 1 and Shotgun together is also very powerful in all scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have skulks that parasite+bite twice, that means you either have marines that know how to aim, or you're commanding unbalanced teams- in which case you've lost anyways.
There's no point upgrading shotguns for bad marines, they will still miss and just turns bad marines into bad marines who ALSO waste their personal resources.
I haven't played an FPS in ~5 years, i went through this stage myself.
However if you're ever unsure and would like a medium, get mines instead of A1.
Marines can always mine up vents and etc and PREVENT skulks from getting the drop on them, instead of constantly dying or requiring meds.
5 or less Marines (including Comm)
* Skip Armoury / 2nd IP and push for 3-4 Res Nodes depending on map.
* 1-2 Aliens tend to try rush on marine spawn - so I exit CC to take them on. Often 1 or both will run while I'm calling 1 Marine to run back to base (by then at least 2 Res are built).
* I may die but 2nd marine tends to clean up the 1 or 2 skulks that are harassing spawn.
* Return to CommChair I them work for Phase Gates and Shotguns and CC. Tres usually ticks up enough in this time I can afford it, as they build TRes continues to stock and * I have early Phase between Spawn and 2nd CC followed shortly by Armory at 2nd CC and Obs as well
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6 + Marines
* 2nd IP + 2-3 res rush (too much opposition to hold properly otherwise early on)
* Obs / Armory (for base camping healing/reload) then Phase
* While phase is researching pushing for a 4th and 5th res if possible and getting Arms to get W2A2
* Usually get Shotguns if we haven't lost any res towers, otherwise reclaim res tower and then get shotguns.
* Try to get JPs and GL or FT first depending on overall gameplay (if Alien comm is a cyst'ing comm, get FT to push his control back, otherwise GL for area damage at range on nests)
* By this time W3/A3 is researching, usually a 2nd Arms at 2nd CC as backup incase one base gets rushed.
Doesn't ALWAYS go to plan, but goes smoother depending how well marines listen to orders.
This.
If your marines can't hit skulks, then you're going to lose regardless of tech path. However, if you have decently skilled marines, W1 can add up in damage vs structures, reducing times to kill harvesters, upgrades, and eggs. A1 is unnecessary until fades come out, unless your trying a specific strat such as an dual exo-A3 rush.
#Framerates are low for many players, making it harder to aim.
#Rego is terrible, so frequently you have to fire 20-30 shots with crosshair on skulk for the server to register enough damage done.
These two items result in any advantage marines had, being cancelled out.
As time progresses, framerate bugs are fixed and rego is improved, this will cease to be true.
However as a old time NS1 player i can't say skulks are exactly easy targets anymore.
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Bugs aside, yes marines should be able to 1v1 skulks.
which at the start if your pushing and don't want to be left as vulnerable as crouched axeing is your gona shoot so ur also not right on the "attack rines here" the syst says different on higher pops as some can axe while others cover but on lower numbers important, the other factor is posibbly how many clips for a rt if your trying to burst down an early alien rt i would have thought d1 takes a clip off?
armoury in base also saves u meds from rines who run back which also means they get armour back instead of just the hp your pack gives them, more important on a high pop server as that res u get from recycle won't cover meding 5 rines,
and A1 is another 2 "glancing" bites so probably worth it at almost all levels as higher skiled matches have rines who dodge better so several glancings stil happen
which at the start if your pushing and don't want to be left as vulnerable as crouched axeing is your gona shoot so ur also not right on the "attack rines here" the syst says different on higher pops as some can axe while others cover but on lower numbers important, the other factor is posibbly how many clips for a rt if your trying to burst down an early alien rt i would have thought d1 takes a clip off?
armoury in base also saves u meds from rines who run back which also means they get armour back instead of just the hp your pack gives them, more important on a high pop server as that res u get from recycle won't cover meding 5 rines,
and A1 is another 2 "glancing" bites so probably worth it at almost all levels as higher skiled matches have rines who dodge better so several glancings stil happen<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the current metagame in competitive play is to rush mines because it effectively puts threats on the field that marine players don't have to babysit, which means they're freeing up a huge ammount of player minutes to go kill alien things in powerful coherant groups. Assuming the alien metagame is to rush carapasc (which I'm pretty sure is the strongest first upgrade right now against people who are very good at shooting, staying in a coherant group, and scanning when needed), by the time upgrades come into the picture, reducing the number of bullets required to kill a skulk by 1 may be more attractive than increasing the number of glancing blows that have to land to die. Especially as higher lifeforms come into the field.
A1 first only really makes definite sense when you're rushing upgrades first, because it's silly to get shotguns before marines can afford to buy shotguns, and it's silly to counter carapasc when it won't be in the game yet for a few minutes. Also, armor first is a better counter for shade first builds when the commander isn't really on point with his scans.
except if thats your strat for shotguns rines start the game with enough for one and if it's at that level they are probably gona get recycled so u have 1/2 your team take mines, 1/2 take sg and your com jumps out -> buys a sg chucks it on ground picks up a lmg and gets back into the chair.
Many forget the com has 20 pres to spend on stuff he can drop into base if someone knows its gona happen to get it before it fades. or more likely 4 get mines 1 gets a shotgun and u get the second as com droping for one in the field meaning u got plenty o mines early with 4 packs and stil have 2 shotguns for the first lifeform or just general rt pushing.
Weapons 1 sometimes reduces skulk to 9 bullets from 10, sometimes skulks are 9 bullets regardless. It depends mostly on whether you get the first tick of regen in time or not. It is not an instant tick like it was in NS1.
Also, A2 before W2 is often overlooked, despite raising it to four bites to kill a marine.
Basically it is a lot easier to have your marines land 1 more bullet than dodge 1 more bite, especially as marine movement is gimped when it comes to dodging.
It's also worth mentioning that with the addition of glancing bites, a marine without any armour at all can die to a full bite (75) and any glancing bite, whereas glancing bites were actually misses before the patch. If they have armour 1, they will be more likely to have enough armour left to survive this kind of attack.
I'm not arguing this in relation to getting an obs first btw, these arguments are entirely about w1 or a1 first.
Other than <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125304" target="_blank">Mineshaft</a> I have been pretty well getting "The Shaft" using this strat and I even find make fun of my own team as I watch 2 people die to 1 skulk that attacked them head on from down a hallway
On aliens is very easy for me to tell people to get into vents and camp unbuilt resource towers, but on marines there is too much of a learning curve and a couple of tips is seriously not cutting it right now