I want to chip in with the other about the glancing blow as a fade. Been playing it quite a bit lately and I really like the shadow step energy change and the blink momentum, the fade doesn't feel like such a gimp anymore.
But, the glancing blow. Usually when you're attacking marines as a fade you're in full speed after blink/shadowstep. Do you realize how hard it is to time the attack so you get the full damage in that situation? Many times I even have the crosshair right in the middle of the marine, but I still get those crappy glancing blows for some reason.
I can still be quite effective though, but it really deteriorates the fade gameplay style where you try to be as mobile as possible. If the marines are hugging an armory nearby then it feels like there's even no point in trying to get hits in.
I'd like to see a build without glancing blows for fades. I can see why skulks get glancing blows, because otherwise there's too much of a skill floor on skulking especially when marines are low skilled as well, but as a fade you spend so much time spazzing around at super high speed (and if you don't do this you will die no questions asked so it's not optional) that landing solid hits is difficult.
How about we... get rid of glancing blows, buff the Fade's HP and armor SLIGHTLY, then make the shotgun do half damage, double it's RoF, make its cone tighter, and give it a slight buff to reload speed? This helps skulks survive shotguns a little better while giving Fades what they need. You can argue it's hard to get four shots on a Fade with the changes to shotguns, but really... if you're alone with a shotgun fighting a Fade, the Fade should kill you. It's his or her JOB.
And Jetpacks need a slight cost increase (I'm thinking 5 pres increase) and more counters. Fade would become a better counter with the shotgun changes, however.
Granted, I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before. Maybe there's a reason this pattern of ideas keeps popping up.
EDIT: I'm saying all of this as somebody who also played NS when it was a mod. Going to go reinstall NS1 now.
<!--quoteo(post=2032092:date=Nov 22 2012, 11:32 AM:name=Lax)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lax @ Nov 22 2012, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope for this so much, I hate the entire glancing blow mechanic and wish it didn't exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Glancing blow is fine for skulks imho, prevents lawnmower ownage. But it makes no sense for fades
<!--quoteo(post=2032141:date=Nov 22 2012, 04:45 AM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Nov 22 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glancing blow is fine for skulks imho, prevents lawnmower ownage. But it makes no sense for fades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What I mean by getting rid of glancing blow is reducing the hitbox to just a full blow, I would rather miss then hit them for a small amount of damage. When i'm fighting something I count the number of times I hit them and my movement, not trying to read the damage number while fighting in melee range. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/2a5EF.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Hitbox #2 is what i'm referring to.
When I die in a fight where I get hits off as anything melee what I think is, "I know I hit him x times and he should be dead, must have been a glancing blow at some point."
Fades are fun to play, at least for me. But I get the feeling they're not very effective. Sure, if you play carefully you can get a very good K/D ratio, but the overall impact a fade can have on a game is terribly underwhelming in comparison to the onos which you can get for just 25 more res.
Fade is very powerful in 1vs1 or 2vs1 confrontations, but they rely on blink and carapace research too much, and if marines move in larger groups or start turtling in their bases, there's not much a fade can do. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be, but I don't feel it warrants the 50 res cost.
I feel they should either be buffed slightly, or simply lower the cost. Alternatively they could tweak vortex or add some other feature to make him more viable late game.
this thread is funny, and exactly the reason why fade cannot be considered neither too strong or too weak without hard evidence.
<!--quoteo(post=2031986:date=Nov 22 2012, 07:34 AM:name=Simini)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simini @ Nov 22 2012, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fades are incredibly weak, why anyone would choose fade over an Onos is beyond me, there no reason to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
damn, maybe you have a genius mind; since the top tier players use fade quite often - maybe you could like get paid to be a top tier team coach or something.
<!--quoteo(post=2032152:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:27 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 22 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this thread is funny, and exactly the reason why fade cannot be considered neither too strong or too weak without hard evidence.
damn, maybe you have a genius mind; since the top tier players use fade quite often - maybe you could like get paid to be a top tier team coach or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, because 95% of the playerbase are top tier players after all. This game doesn't resolve around only top tier players, basically what you're saying is that people need to l2p.
The role of the fade overlaps so much with the skulk, but there is a 50 res difference between the two. Fades are merely upgraded skulks and since the player amount in a match is limited, a team of 10 fades will be better than a team of 10 skulks. That doesn't make it worthwhile if you calculate in the risks of losing 50 res per fade and the fact that both the skulk and the fade overlap in roles, yes experience will play a huge role in this, but I think its a fair assumption that for the average player the onos for a merely 25 more res is alot better than the weak (aka walk on a thin line between life and death determined by experience) fade.
Too many players are used to the NS1 fade or want to go on a killing rampage with it. Even with the onos most players need a gorge to follow them around so they don't die. This should be a clue as to what the fade can and can't do. Most times the fade is designed for hit and run or to take out that lone marine either going for the upgrades or trying to ninja a phase gate some where.
<!--quoteo(post=2032167:date=Nov 22 2012, 09:45 PM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Nov 22 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Too many players are used to the NS1 fade or want to go on a killing rampage with it. Even with the onos most players need a gorge to follow them around so they don't die. This should be a clue as to what the fade can and can't do. Most times the fade is designed for hit and run or to take out that lone marine either going for the upgrades or trying to ninja a phase gate some where.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yea and get a gorge running behind the fade when he just blink right away seeing a marine with sg and another one with lmg?
<!--quoteo(post=2032154:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:33 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Nov 22 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, because 95% of the playerbase are top tier players after all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that was only an example.
i use fade more often than onos, because i prefer being more mobile and because onos in pub is too fking easy and boring.
i believe that UWE will have to tread very carefully around fade/shotgun balance, because if a shotgunner/marine cannot kill a fade then it makes it literally impossible for marines to go anywhere alone. the onos is expensive and super slow, on the other hand a fade can move accross the entire map in a few seconds. it would mean that a single above average fade on the other team could make you (an above average marine) absolutely powerless.
sure fade should probably be >50% against an <b><u>EQUALLY</b></u> skilled shotgunner, but for all i (and you) know - that could already be the case. i know for a fact that with shotgun; i'm >50% at killing lower skill fades, but i've never really seen a good fade.
i feel nauseous at the idea of a fade being a match for two equal skilled maine players. this game is good because players are capable of doing well on their own, at least until the terrifying 'monster unit' onos is on the field - does the game really need another onos? i don't think so.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> because that doesn't look like balance to me.
<!--quoteo(post=2032176:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:55 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Nov 22 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks directly boost marines for 10 pres, I'd say you could say the same about fades and skulks, except that it costs 50 pres to get that boost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually it's more like skulk/fade getting the one-time upgrades leap/blink.
the lifeform cost is you being able to buy superior weapons over time, such as exosuit or shotgun. shotgunners will occasionally die to skulks, fades will occasionally die to shotgunners. making balance claims out of context or without statistical evidence doesn't really mean anything.
I'm fine with EXOs, they have their distinct advantages and disadvantages. Shotguns however gets recycled over and over while fades are lost for good. So perhaps its more of an issue with shotguns being too effective and not so much with the fade being too weak. The shotgun on its own does what its supposed to do, but dropped weapons needs to be destroyable and / or jetpacks need to cost more. I'm still not keen with the role overlap of skulk and fades but whatever, if it gets more balanced this way, I'd be happy as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2032180:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Nov 22 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm fine with EXOs, they have their distinct advantages and disadvantages. Shotguns however gets recycled over and over while fades are lost for good. So perhaps its more of an issue with shotguns being too effective and not so much with the fade being too weak. The shotgun on its own does what its supposed to do, but dropped weapons needs to be destroyable and / or jetpacks need to cost more. I'm still not keen with the role overlap of skulk and fades but whatever, if it gets more balanced this way, I'd be happy as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think weapon recycling is comparable to running away with your fade. can a marine with grenade launcher run away from a fade? can a marine with shotgun run away from a skulk ambush or an onos? F*** no. it's one of those features which is asymmetric but has a parallel.
i do feel that jetpacks are too cheap for such a massive effect - perhaps they should cost 20 pres instead. but that has nothing to do with the fade; on topic i want to repeat an earlier comment/question for greater emphasis:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
if fade was buffed to more effectively beat marines 1v1, then any alien team able to hold on for 5-10 minutes would all buy pres fades and then faceroll the marine team. that seems so blatantly broken that it doesn't need any statistical evidence to back it up.
<!--quoteo(post=2032182:date=Nov 22 2012, 03:14 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 22 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
because that seems likely to happen if marines don't have a reasonable chance to beat them one versus one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, now you're the one setting up a situation by sucking it out of your thumb.
Even in that situation, the marines equipped with shotguns will at least kill 1 or 2 fades, which is 100 res, the cost of all 5 shotguns alone and the marines have a chance to recuperate them.
I didn't ask to buff fades, I wanted more distinct roles and I think some people have a fair point that for a mere 25 more pres, the onos does a better job in case of the average player.
And why did I start about jetpacks? Because the jetpack/shotgun combination is godly.
<!--quoteo(post=2032183:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:21 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Nov 22 2012, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, now you're the one setting up a situation by sucking it out of your thumb.
Even in that situation, the marines equipped with shotguns will at least kill 1 or 2 fades, which is 100 res, the costs of all 5 shotguns alone and they marines have a chance to recuperate them.
I didn't ask to buff fades, I wanted more distinct roles and I think some people have a fair point that for a mere 25 more pres, the onos does a better job in case of the average player.
And why did I start about jetpacks? Because the jetpack/shotgun combinaton is godly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
now now.... you automatically assumed that there was a chaotic 5v5 group attack. that's what the marines would want, but why would the aliens do that?
the fades would just split up and start killing all of the marines stuff, then retreating when marines get close. spread the marines thin, then attack when you get a 1v1 without losing anything.
when there's no chaos, fades NEVER have to die. you watch your HP bar and when you take a nasty shotgun hit you blink the hell out. heal up and then have another crack at your 1v1.
Fades need either Focus, wich would allow them to kill an armorless marine in 1 hit, or 2 hits for armored marines.
OR
They need to make the backstabs hits critical damage, like 3 times the dmg, but it takes so long before you get another hit with focus that he would have to retreat, so you won't be able to solo exos because you'll have to leave between each hits.
THats what fades are supposed to be, ninjas that backstab you and are already gone when you turn around (If you do turn around) hahaha
Focus is the best solution for me, but focus by default, wich means, fades would hit every 3 or 4 seconds or so, but hit for like 150 dmg by default.
THis would allow them to 1 hit marines up to lvl 3 armor, and 2 hit lvl 3 armor marines. So basically, allow them to control single ninja marines trying to harass, just like JP can do with harassing skulks.
And it give them the ability to be feared by exos finally, since an exo can easily take down a fade if he stays around him too long.
<!--quoteo(post=2031989:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:35 AM:name=Bullet_Force)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullet_Force @ Nov 22 2012, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A single fade can tie up several Marine players at the moment. That means Aliens can hit them elsewhere in greater numbers. It is still very easy for a Fade to go in against two Marines kill one even with them shooting at it and make it out of there will 50% health no problem. Fades are fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They aren't at all effective beyond basic harassment (and even lerks are more effective in this regard). They aren't able to protect their gorges like onoses can, so lots of the time have to retreat all the way back to the hive to heal, meaning they're only attacking like 5% of the time, and retreating/getting back to the front lines the rest. They're able to do very little damage against coordinated marines with good aim, working as a team, during each of these attacks. Even if they do manage to kill ONE of them, chances are they'll just get their gun back while you're healing as you don't have the ability to hold the area down. They aren't effective at all against structures. They aren't effective against exos either (even regular exos, which cost just as much as fade). They require carapace as they're so easy to hit, and can get 2 shotted with a shotgun without it. It can be directly countered by flamethrower. I won't talk about requiring blink, because I don't mind shadowstep (although it's hard to go uphill quickly with it). However, last but not least, there is pretty much no reason not to save for onos instead, unless you've got jetpackers flying all around cargo hive or something.
A fade is a significant pres investment for a alien player. Whenever a fade enters the field for the first time, the marine team should be saying "oh ######! there's a fade. Band up, buy shotguns/flamethrowers, and work as a team guys!".
Instead it's "oh ###### a fade!... nevermind, killed it"
Fades can rack up some pretty impressive k/d ratios. But I can bet that most of those kills didn't provide a lot of real assistance that helped change the outcome of the game
Remove glancing blows from Fade? That's just a crutch for people who can't aim. For the millionth time, damage is not the Fade's problem, it's his health pool.
Should be easy: Bind weapon and armorupgrades to commandchairs, make shotgun do 25%less damage, but 25% faster shooting with 25% faster reloadtime and that may be it. No more 1 baseturtletactics, no more 2 lucky shots with a 20res gun vs a 50 res lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=2032216:date=Nov 22 2012, 05:23 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 22 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove glancing blows from Fade? That's just a crutch for people who can't aim. For the millionth time, damage is not the Fade's problem, it's his health pool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You fail to look at the issue from other angles. Maybe the health pool is an issue in your opinion because the fade has to stay stationary longer to actually deal damage, so it's more susceptible to taking damage? Increasing burst damage (focus) would help without making the fade impossible to kill if he always runs back to heal (which is boring even to the fade player).
Cara/celerity fade, I have yet to die before getting enough res to onos...being 60/3 seems to be fair enough. Your job as a fade is to limit marines ability to expand, not to destroy bases.... Usually by the time I die as a fade rines are turtles up on two bases and its better to be an onos....
<!--quoteo(post=2032313:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:46 PM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 22 2012, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You fail to look at the issue from other angles. Maybe the health pool is an issue in your opinion because the fade has to stay stationary longer to actually deal damage, so it's more susceptible to taking damage? Increasing burst damage (focus) would help without making the fade impossible to kill if he always runs back to heal (which is boring even to the fade player).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> HIT AND RUN TACTICS DO NOT WORK BECAUSE ARMORIES HEAL ARMOR. END OF STORY.
Sadly due to people misunderstanding its role, we might get more nerfs to fade :(....
To make it clear, fade role in Ns2 is:
#1 Stifling the marines mobility, 1v1 a good fade will always kill a good anything Exo,Jp,Whatever. So Guys move in balls of 2 atleast, 3+ is even better!
<!--quoteo(post=2032340:date=Nov 22 2012, 06:28 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 22 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HIT AND RUN TACTICS DO NOT WORK BECAUSE ARMORIES HEAL ARMOR. END OF STORY.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hit and run dosnt mean on rines in base. And if yourgiving them time to run back to base, your doing to much running and not enough hitting. By hit and run they mean blink in hit once, blink around the corner wait 2-3 sec and blink back in while they reload and hit 2 more times to get the kill....
fades are too weak, anyone who says they are too strong has never had a level 3 shotgun with good aim, i recall myself killing fades when they get close 2 shotgun blasts is all it takes, 50 res lifeform should turn into 30 res vs a level 3 shotgun
going a bit off topic here but lerks are also weak, i think they should be 150/100 (with carapace) or have spores deploy like umbra so you dont have to pass by a shotgunner and get blasted
<!--quoteo(post=2032348:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:40 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 22 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hit and run dosnt mean on rines in base. And if yourgiving them time to run back to base, your doing to much running and not enough hitting. By hit and run they mean blink in hit once, blink around the corner wait 2-3 sec and blink back in while they reload and hit 2 more times to get the kill....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> what if marines lost the game already and are just defending main base when the game should be over... fades=the most useless end game lifeforms
Comments
But, the glancing blow. Usually when you're attacking marines as a fade you're in full speed after blink/shadowstep. Do you realize how hard it is to time the attack so you get the full damage in that situation? Many times I even have the crosshair right in the middle of the marine, but I still get those crappy glancing blows for some reason.
I can still be quite effective though, but it really deteriorates the fade gameplay style where you try to be as mobile as possible. If the marines are hugging an armory nearby then it feels like there's even no point in trying to get hits in.
And Jetpacks need a slight cost increase (I'm thinking 5 pres increase) and more counters. Fade would become a better counter with the shotgun changes, however.
Granted, I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before. Maybe there's a reason this pattern of ideas keeps popping up.
EDIT: I'm saying all of this as somebody who also played NS when it was a mod. Going to go reinstall NS1 now.
Glancing blow is fine for skulks imho, prevents lawnmower ownage. But it makes no sense for fades
What I mean by getting rid of glancing blow is reducing the hitbox to just a full blow, I would rather miss then hit them for a small amount of damage. When i'm fighting something I count the number of times I hit them and my movement, not trying to read the damage number while fighting in melee range.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/2a5EF.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Hitbox #2 is what i'm referring to.
When I die in a fight where I get hits off as anything melee what I think is, "I know I hit him x times and he should be dead, must have been a glancing blow at some point."
Fade is very powerful in 1vs1 or 2vs1 confrontations, but they rely on blink and carapace research too much, and if marines move in larger groups or start turtling in their bases, there's not much a fade can do. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be, but I don't feel it warrants the 50 res cost.
I feel they should either be buffed slightly, or simply lower the cost. Alternatively they could tweak vortex or add some other feature to make him more viable late game.
<!--quoteo(post=2031986:date=Nov 22 2012, 07:34 AM:name=Simini)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simini @ Nov 22 2012, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fades are incredibly weak, why anyone would choose fade over an Onos is beyond me, there no reason to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
damn, maybe you have a genius mind; since the top tier players use fade quite often - maybe you could like get paid to be a top tier team coach or something.
damn, maybe you have a genius mind; since the top tier players use fade quite often - maybe you could like get paid to be a top tier team coach or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, because 95% of the playerbase are top tier players after all. This game doesn't resolve around only top tier players, basically what you're saying is that people need to l2p.
The role of the fade overlaps so much with the skulk, but there is a 50 res difference between the two. Fades are merely upgraded skulks and since the player amount in a match is limited, a team of 10 fades will be better than a team of 10 skulks. That doesn't make it worthwhile if you calculate in the risks of losing 50 res per fade and the fact that both the skulk and the fade overlap in roles, yes experience will play a huge role in this, but I think its a fair assumption that for the average player the onos for a merely 25 more res is alot better than the weak (aka walk on a thin line between life and death determined by experience) fade.
yea and get a gorge running behind the fade when he just blink right away seeing a marine with sg and another one with lmg?
that was only an example.
i use fade more often than onos, because i prefer being more mobile and because onos in pub is too fking easy and boring.
i believe that UWE will have to tread very carefully around fade/shotgun balance, because if a shotgunner/marine cannot kill a fade then it makes it literally impossible for marines to go anywhere alone. the onos is expensive and super slow, on the other hand a fade can move accross the entire map in a few seconds. it would mean that a single above average fade on the other team could make you (an above average marine) absolutely powerless.
sure fade should probably be >50% against an <b><u>EQUALLY</b></u> skilled shotgunner, but for all i (and you) know - that could already be the case. i know for a fact that with shotgun; i'm >50% at killing lower skill fades, but i've never really seen a good fade.
i feel nauseous at the idea of a fade being a match for two equal skilled maine players. this game is good because players are capable of doing well on their own, at least until the terrifying 'monster unit' onos is on the field - does the game really need another onos? i don't think so.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> because that doesn't look like balance to me.
actually it's more like skulk/fade getting the one-time upgrades leap/blink.
the lifeform cost is you being able to buy superior weapons over time, such as exosuit or shotgun. shotgunners will occasionally die to skulks, fades will occasionally die to shotgunners. making balance claims out of context or without statistical evidence doesn't really mean anything.
i think weapon recycling is comparable to running away with your fade. can a marine with grenade launcher run away from a fade? can a marine with shotgun run away from a skulk ambush or an onos? F*** no. it's one of those features which is asymmetric but has a parallel.
i do feel that jetpacks are too cheap for such a massive effect - perhaps they should cost 20 pres instead. but that has nothing to do with the fade; on topic i want to repeat an earlier comment/question for greater emphasis:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
if fade was buffed to more effectively beat marines 1v1, then any alien team able to hold on for 5-10 minutes would all buy pres fades and then faceroll the marine team. that seems so blatantly broken that it doesn't need any statistical evidence to back it up.
because that seems likely to happen if marines don't have a reasonable chance to beat them one versus one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, now you're the one setting up a situation by sucking it out of your thumb.
Even in that situation, the marines equipped with shotguns will at least kill 1 or 2 fades, which is 100 res, the cost of all 5 shotguns alone and the marines have a chance to recuperate them.
I didn't ask to buff fades, I wanted more distinct roles and I think some people have a fair point that for a mere 25 more pres, the onos does a better job in case of the average player.
And why did I start about jetpacks? Because the jetpack/shotgun combination is godly.
Even in that situation, the marines equipped with shotguns will at least kill 1 or 2 fades, which is 100 res, the costs of all 5 shotguns alone and they marines have a chance to recuperate them.
I didn't ask to buff fades, I wanted more distinct roles and I think some people have a fair point that for a mere 25 more pres, the onos does a better job in case of the average player.
And why did I start about jetpacks? Because the jetpack/shotgun combinaton is godly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
now now.... you automatically assumed that there was a chaotic 5v5 group attack. that's what the marines would want, but why would the aliens do that?
the fades would just split up and start killing all of the marines stuff, then retreating when marines get close. spread the marines thin, then attack when you get a 1v1 without losing anything.
when there's no chaos, fades NEVER have to die. you watch your HP bar and when you take a nasty shotgun hit you blink the hell out. heal up and then have another crack at your 1v1.
OR
They need to make the backstabs hits critical damage, like 3 times the dmg, but it takes so long before you get another hit with focus that he would have to retreat, so you won't be able to solo exos because you'll have to leave between each hits.
THats what fades are supposed to be, ninjas that backstab you and are already gone when you turn around (If you do turn around) hahaha
Focus is the best solution for me, but focus by default, wich means, fades would hit every 3 or 4 seconds or so, but hit for like 150 dmg by default.
THis would allow them to 1 hit marines up to lvl 3 armor, and 2 hit lvl 3 armor marines. So basically, allow them to control single ninja marines trying to harass, just like JP can do with harassing skulks.
And it give them the ability to be feared by exos finally, since an exo can easily take down a fade if he stays around him too long.
They aren't at all effective beyond basic harassment (and even lerks are more effective in this regard). They aren't able to protect their gorges like onoses can, so lots of the time have to retreat all the way back to the hive to heal, meaning they're only attacking like 5% of the time, and retreating/getting back to the front lines the rest. They're able to do very little damage against coordinated marines with good aim, working as a team, during each of these attacks. Even if they do manage to kill ONE of them, chances are they'll just get their gun back while you're healing as you don't have the ability to hold the area down. They aren't effective at all against structures. They aren't effective against exos either (even regular exos, which cost just as much as fade). They require carapace as they're so easy to hit, and can get 2 shotted with a shotgun without it. It can be directly countered by flamethrower. I won't talk about requiring blink, because I don't mind shadowstep (although it's hard to go uphill quickly with it). However, last but not least, there is pretty much no reason not to save for onos instead, unless you've got jetpackers flying all around cargo hive or something.
A fade is a significant pres investment for a alien player. Whenever a fade enters the field for the first time, the marine team should be saying "oh ######! there's a fade. Band up, buy shotguns/flamethrowers, and work as a team guys!".
Instead it's "oh ###### a fade!... nevermind, killed it"
Fades can rack up some pretty impressive k/d ratios. But I can bet that most of those kills didn't provide a lot of real assistance that helped change the outcome of the game
You fail to look at the issue from other angles. Maybe the health pool is an issue in your opinion because the fade has to stay stationary longer to actually deal damage, so it's more susceptible to taking damage? Increasing burst damage (focus) would help without making the fade impossible to kill if he always runs back to heal (which is boring even to the fade player).
HIT AND RUN TACTICS DO NOT WORK BECAUSE ARMORIES HEAL ARMOR. END OF STORY.
To make it clear, fade role in Ns2 is:
#1 Stifling the marines mobility, 1v1 a good fade will always kill a good anything Exo,Jp,Whatever. So Guys move in balls of 2 atleast, 3+ is even better!
-Daniel
Hit and run dosnt mean on rines in base. And if yourgiving them time to run back to base, your doing to much running and not enough hitting. By hit and run they mean blink in hit once, blink around the corner wait 2-3 sec and blink back in while they reload and hit 2 more times to get the kill....
going a bit off topic here but lerks are also weak, i think they should be 150/100 (with carapace) or have spores deploy like umbra so you dont have to pass by a shotgunner and get blasted
Fades health should be 300-350/150 (carapace)
what if marines lost the game already and are just defending main base when the game should be over... fades=the most useless end game lifeforms
But Blink ability needs to take up more stamina, then it would be fine.