its easy for me to kill anything with a shotgun and a jp, minus onos
when the game starts the balance is almost perfect, mid game is a toss up, late game i find marines to show how OP they can be with level 3's and exo
why did onos get nerfed and exo gets buffed? onos is 75 res, DUAL exo is 75 res, if the player has decent aim a dual exo will ALWAYS kill a carapaced onos 1v1 with celerity it will be very close but if the exo does not miss a shot which is not too hard, it will win assuming they both have full health
<!--quoteo(post=2032361:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:53 PM:name=Sharp-Shooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sharp-Shooter @ Nov 22 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its easy for me to kill anything with a shotgun and a jp, minus onos
when the game starts the balance is almost perfect, mid game is a toss up, late game i find marines to show how OP they can be with level 3's and exo
why did onos get nerfed and exo gets buffed? onos is 75 res, DUAL exo is 75 res, if the player has decent aim a dual exo will ALWAYS kill a carapaced onos 1v1 with celerity it will be very close but if the exo does not miss a shot which is not too hard, it will win assuming they both have full health<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Matters on range. If the EXO gets off a few shots before the onos reaches it, sure. But a Cloaked Onos that walks up to an EXO no hope. Also most onos travel with gorges. Bile Bomb [disable Mac]+ onos stomp [to disable marine welder] - exo dies.
Also Alien comander can drop Onos egg, Marine commander can't drop Dual Exo.
<!--quoteo(post=2031950:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:53 AM:name=addest3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (addest3 @ Nov 22 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I appreciate your response and I understand in a game like this you can't just say 1+1=2.
I think the fades need a nerf on later armor and damage. Say 5 hits late game on a marine. Currently, a tier 3 armor marine vs a late game fade it takes 3 swipes or 2 to head two to body. Its attack speed is much too high for the damage it does, while the shotgun, the "anti fade", can only shoot one shell every second and a half or so. IMO, Fade REALLY needs a late game energy and armor/health rework. Literally every game I have played the fade absolutely destroys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in my opinion, fades are too weak in the late game. in the early game they're quite powerful but only if ppl know how to use him and mid game, he shines. you basically need adren and cara and blink for fade, otherwise, he's just a large, slow skulk.
He's pretty well balanced in my opinion. Although Vortex should be opted out for another ability instead. It rarely does anything useful in pub games and is even rarer on competitive games.
<!--quoteo(post=2032361:date=Nov 22 2012, 06:53 PM:name=Sharp-Shooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sharp-Shooter @ Nov 22 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its easy for me to kill anything with a shotgun and a jp, minus onos
when the game starts the balance is almost perfect, mid game is a toss up, late game i find marines to show how OP they can be with level 3's and exo
why did onos get nerfed and exo gets buffed? onos is 75 res, DUAL exo is 75 res, if the player has decent aim a dual exo will ALWAYS kill a carapaced onos 1v1 with celerity it will be very close but if the exo does not miss a shot which is not too hard, it will win assuming they both have full health<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you sure about the exo vs onos thing?
i don't play either onos or exo because the skill ceiling is too low, but in my experience onos wins by a mile... i'm pretty sure onos does structure damage against exo (ignoring armor), ergo the onos only needs to do 580 damage to kill - unlike skulk which needs to deal 1160 damage (armor = 2xhp) to kill an exo.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2032015:date=Nov 22 2012, 12:08 AM:name=ktr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktr @ Nov 22 2012, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flamethrower are pretty effective against Fades. It stacks damage, slows down energy regen considerably, and makes the slightly more visible when blinking. Also use landmines to cover your backs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mines dont blow up when a shadowstepping or blinking fade goes over them. <!--quoteo(post=2032313:date=Nov 22 2012, 09:46 AM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 22 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You fail to look at the issue from other angles. Maybe the health pool is an issue in your opinion because the fade has to stay stationary longer to actually deal damage, so it's more susceptible to taking damage? Increasing burst damage (focus) would help without making the fade impossible to kill if he always runs back to heal (which is boring even to the fade player).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You dont balance a lifeform around/assuming it has to have a certain upgrade to be useful.
<!--quoteo(post=2032351:date=Nov 22 2012, 06:44 PM:name=Sharp-Shooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sharp-Shooter @ Nov 22 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what if marines lost the game already and are just defending main base when the game should be over... fades=the most useless end game lifeforms<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again fades are not meant to attack bases, they do minimal structural damage so save up and buy an onos or go lerk and spam umbra on the onos...
As for killing a fade in 2 shots, first of all this is why a fade should get cara, and second aim/skill>life form if your claiming that you would rather be a S/G rine then a fade in a 1v1 you have yet to see a decent fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2032376:date=Nov 22 2012, 11:08 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 22 2012, 11:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you sure about the exo vs onos thing?
i don't play either onos or exo because the skill ceiling is too low, but in my experience onos wins by a mile... i'm pretty sure onos does structure damage against exo (ignoring armor), ergo the onos only needs to do 580 damage to kill - unlike skulk which needs to deal 1160 damage (armor = 2xhp) to kill an exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You always talk like such a jackass, people would respect your posts more if you didn't always qualify them by saying how good you are when I don't even know you as a competitive player, but instead as the guy with 400 posts in a couple weeks.
Onos does only 100dmg a hit to exos - 6 hits to kill an unwelder armor 3 exo.
Exo does heavy damage so its 1x1 for the onos armor.
Onos beats exo if its 1v1 but if theres 2 exos they will typcially kill an onos before they even start doing any damage.
<!--quoteo(post=2032340:date=Nov 22 2012, 08:28 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 22 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HIT AND RUN TACTICS DO NOT WORK BECAUSE ARMORIES HEAL ARMOR. END OF STORY.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already acknowledged this earlier in the thread which you obviously didn't bother to read.
<!--quoteo(post=2032095:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:34 PM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 22 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the marines are hugging an armory nearby then it feels like there's even no point in trying to get hits in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this is another topic of discussion, and in no way a counter-argument for what I said. Bringing back focus would make it easier to snipe armoury-hugging marines though.
<!--quoteo(post=2032381:date=Nov 22 2012, 03:19 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 22 2012, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again fades are not meant to attack bases, they do minimal structural damage so save up and buy an onos or go lerk and spam umbra on the onos...
As for killing a fade in 2 shots, first of all this is why a fade should get cara, and second aim/skill>life form if your claiming that you would rather be a S/G rine then a fade in a 1v1 you have yet to see a decent fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i seen some decent fades, not going point out names but lets just say i see him play on tournaments
one more thing, cara fades is bad too i do think its 2 shot not 100 percent sure
<!--quoteo(post=2032174:date=Nov 22 2012, 08:54 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 22 2012, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that was only an example.
i use fade more often than onos, because i prefer being more mobile and because onos in pub is too fking easy and boring.
i believe that UWE will have to tread very carefully around fade/shotgun balance, because if a shotgunner/marine cannot kill a fade then it makes it literally impossible for marines to go anywhere alone. the onos is expensive and super slow, on the other hand a fade can move accross the entire map in a few seconds. it would mean that a single above average fade on the other team could make you (an above average marine) absolutely powerless.
sure fade should probably be >50% against an <b><u>EQUALLY</b></u> skilled shotgunner, but for all i (and you) know - that could already be the case. i know for a fact that with shotgun; i'm >50% at killing lower skill fades, but i've never really seen a good fade.
i feel nauseous at the idea of a fade being a match for two equal skilled maine players. this game is good because players are capable of doing well on their own, at least until the terrifying 'monster unit' onos is on the field - does the game really need another onos? i don't think so.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> because that doesn't look like balance to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I heavily disagree with this. That's exactly what the fade is supposed to be, a heavy harrass pusher. He's the banshee in SC2. If you bunch up your army he becomes weak, but if you're scattered around he makes life hell for you. The fade should be a legitimate threat to 2 AR marines, and he should be outmatched by 2 SG marines, and with 1 SG and 1 AR it should be a player skill issue.
The fade is slower at killing power nodes, extractors, and what not than the skulk is. He gives you about 10 more seconds to get another guy with you to counter what he's doing in the field. But I'd argue that his role is to free up skulks doing harrassment by taking over it himself. A harrassing fade is supposed to weaken the marine primary army because if they want to stop it, they just need to have more than 1 guy to do it. It currently doesn't do that, Someone just buys a shotgun and fixes the problem.
5 fades won't be an auto win because of the basic mechanics of melee vs ranged. 5 marines can instantly kill any fade that gets near to them, and fades must close ground in order to progress. You will lose at least a majority of your fades if you try to push a team of 5 marines, and you will lose a much higher investment than the marines have made unless they have exos (in which case you'll probably lose all of your fades without doing much). 5 fades should be able to kill off 5 shotgun marines in open combat, but there won't be a way to do that without taking heavy losses yourself.
Composition is a more important factor for aliens. Lerks blind marines with gas, fades distract shots without putting themselves in any real danger, and skulks do the bulk of the damage. That's the most cost effective kharra army (more or less) vs 5 shotgun marines.
Fades are not broken, maybe just a bit underpowered. The problem most players have is that they don't understand how to play them and aren't proficient enough at utilizing the shadowstep/blink mechanics to dodge. Their skill curve is very steep, and just straight buffing their armor would make good Fades ridiculous in pubs, much like Lerks.
That said, I think the current design of the Fade is somewhat flawed. It's too heavily based on evasion, which is ultimately unreliable no matter how good you are and results in very frustrating deaths for the average player. It feels too all-or-nothing; either you evade all the shots and slaughter the marines, or they nail you and you're dead. In NS1 the Fade was pretty slippery, but he still usually took a few hits in each fight, which is why he had metabolize. I think I would rather that the Fade's armor were buffed, he got metabolize back, and his evasion abilities were nerfed somewhat in exchange.
<!--quoteo(post=2032348:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:40 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 22 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hit and run dosnt mean on rines in base. And if yourgiving them time to run back to base, your doing to much running and not enough hitting. By hit and run they mean blink in hit once, blink around the corner wait 2-3 sec and blink back in while they reload and hit 2 more times to get the kill....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades only kill bad players. Fades are one of the easiest lifeforms to kill or make retreat. I would rather play against an entire team of Fades because I know they will be at the hive healing for 70% of the game.
Armories are not just "in base". They are EVERYWHERE. Every phase gate gets an armory and if marines start pushing any good comm will drop them an armory immediately.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2032102:date=Nov 22 2012, 12:41 PM:name=RabidWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RabidWeasel @ Nov 22 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see a build without glancing blows for fades. I can see why skulks get glancing blows, because otherwise there's too much of a skill floor on skulking especially when marines are low skilled as well, but as a fade you spend so much time spazzing around at super high speed (and if you don't do this you will die no questions asked so it's not optional) that landing solid hits is difficult.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh ... the glancing stuff? It's actually a boost - the size of the attack was trippled, so getting a full blow in is exactly as difficult as it was before the glancing blows were added. Any glancing blow is actually an attack that would have missed before.
<!--quoteo(post=2032408:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:43 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Nov 22 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh ... the glancing stuff? It's actually a boost - the size of the attack was trippled, so getting a full blow in is exactly as difficult as it was before the glancing blows were added. Any glancing blow is actually an attack that would have missed before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What he's saying is he'd like a significantly larger full damage cone. It certainly would make the fade easier to play for pubbies. I see it as one of those things that raises the skill floor without doing much to the ceiling.
<!--quoteo(post=2032413:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:47 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 22 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What he's saying is he'd like a significantly larger full damage cone. It certainly would make the fade easier to play for pubbies. I see it as one of those things that raises the skill floor without doing much to the ceiling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it's a fair point, the Fade is way more mobile than a Skulk so aiming his swipes precisely is considerably more difficult. Seems reasonable for it to be more forgiving.
Mostly I'm just trying to think up ways to raise the skill floor on fades since an hp buff might make them too difficult to kill when played well. I still think that 50 res is too much for the fade with its current level of frailty, though. Against W3 you are going to die eventually unless you never engage more than 1 marine at a time.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
No please.. back in beta the fade had a crazy huge cone of fire. Months went by with the class able to hit you at 360 degrees.. And then it was reduced to 90 degree angles.. then it was finally reduced to what it is now. For a hit and run "assassin" he really should require precise aiming (and its not even that precise when you have a marine at melee distance taking up 70% of your screen)
<!--quoteo(post=2031943:date=Nov 21 2012, 11:43 PM:name=addest3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (addest3 @ Nov 21 2012, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 swipes on a fully upgraded marine, dead. Take 3 shots from a shotgun to kill a carapace Fade.
Fade swipe faster than man Man not shoot at same speed Man team not matter because man with shotgun should = Fade
Well, without reading the entire thread. I'll start off by saying you're wrong on values.
It's 4 swipes with Armor 3 (plenty of time to dodge/get 3 shotgun shells in)..
And it Fades might swipe faster but you are forgetting 1. a Marine can fire first as the Fade is coming in 2. It is likely another marine will be with you and get some rifle/shotgun damage in..
And 3. a shotgun is 20Pres.. a Fade is 50Pres/50Tres..
So saying the Fade is overpowered is wrong in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=2032174:date=Nov 22 2012, 07:54 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 22 2012, 07:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i use fade more often than onos, because i prefer being more mobile and because onos in pub is too fking easy and boring.
i believe that UWE will have to tread very carefully around fade/shotgun balance, because if a shotgunner/marine cannot kill a fade then it makes it literally impossible for marines to go anywhere alone. the onos is expensive and super slow, on the other hand a fade can move accross the entire map in a few seconds. it would mean that a single above average fade on the other team could make you (an above average marine) absolutely powerless.
sure fade should probably be >50% against an <b><u>EQUALLY</b></u> skilled shotgunner, but for all i (and you) know - that could already be the case. i know for a fact that with shotgun; i'm >50% at killing lower skill fades, but i've never really seen a good fade.
i feel nauseous at the idea of a fade being a match for two equal skilled maine players. this game is good because players are capable of doing well on their own, at least until the terrifying 'monster unit' onos is on the field - does the game really need another onos? i don't think so.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> because that doesn't look like balance to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, fade is 50 pres. Two marines should be scared of him. That's a really big pres investment. I know you used the big yelling red text, but 50 pres is an exosuit; how silly would you sound if you were screaming your head off about "DO YOU WANT A SITUATION WHERE FIVE EXOS CAN BEAT FIVE SKULKS!?" For that matter, fade should not be 50% against a shotgunner. That's the point- something worth 40% of your investment is currently very scary to a fade, because going up against a shotgunner can be a coin flip right now. For a marine to be able to invest so much less and have an even shot at winning isn't fun for the fade. The 40% cost doesn't figure in the fact that if you beat the shotgunner, he will probably come pick up his gun for free after you inevitably have to retreat to heal, halving the effective res investment.
Once again- yes, I do want a situation where marines run a risk if they go out without teammates. If your idea of good marine/alien balance is that marines should be able to run out on their own and be effective and not be afraid of dying, then I'm glad you're not in charge of balance.
<!--quoteo(post=2032379:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:11 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 22 2012, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You dont balance a lifeform around/assuming it has to have a certain upgrade to be useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2032381:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:19 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 22 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for killing a fade in 2 shots, first of all this is why a fade should get cara, and second aim/skill>life form if your claiming that you would rather be a S/G rine then a fade in a 1v1 you have yet to see a decent fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just the point, though- you're saying that "oh only bad fades don't use cara" but the lead playtester above you just said you shouldn't balance assuming you have upgrades. Right now, fade really isn't that good without blink, without cara, and generally without at least silence or adren right now. You shouldn't need 2-3 hives of upgrades for someone to even want to consider playing it.
Hmm this is a hard 1, you can't buff fades to much because in the right hands they are deadly. I think the problem is in the res cost of fades, the res cost of lifeforms might have made sence when frame rate and hit reg was off (couldn't kill them :P ) but maybe its time to look at it again ? now I would not like to be the person doing this, as cheaper means you will see them earlier in the game but if you keep the research cost the same they might be out earlier but they will be alot weaker ie. missing some upgrades hence easier to kill this would make losing one not game breaking. Now this res cost would need to be balanced but I think 40 pres with a 50tres drop would be a gd start.
secondly I think a buff to vortex would help with late game fades reduce the energy cost and buff the time just still keep it that you can only have 1 vortex active per fade at a time.
<!--quoteo(post=2032519:date=Nov 22 2012, 09:57 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 22 2012, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's all take a moment to laugh at the fact that the Fade effectively has the same amount of health as the Gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm still laughing from when you said "Fades only kill bad players."
I think most of the problem stems from the NS2 fade blink. It has a whole bunch of consequences that ends up changing the playstyle of the fade considerably (more evasive, more squishy, more time spent finding a place to heal). I can deal with no bunnyhop and stuff like that, but man, the fade just feels like a shadow of his former self. It was my go-to class in NS1, and in NS2 I don't even bother.
<!--quoteo(post=2032594:date=Nov 23 2012, 12:10 AM:name=maesse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maesse @ Nov 23 2012, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think most of the problem stems from the NS2 fade blink. It has a whole bunch of consequences that ends up changing the playstyle of the fade considerably (more evasive, more squishy, more time spent finding a place to heal). I can deal with no bunnyhop and stuff like that, but man, the fade just feels like a shadow of his former self. It was my go-to class in NS1, and in NS2 I don't even bother.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i didn't play NS1 and if i did then maybe i would feel differently... but perhaps that gives me an impartial view of the NS2 fade; i love it.
as onos, you always have to be extremely concerned with over extending. fade doesn't have this problem because your design is ideal for hit and run. sure it's frustrating when there's 2 shotgunners, or even a lone shotgunner who gets a meatshot and you're forced to retreat - but you're still far more effective and resilient than a lerk minus the ranged attack (blink and shadowstep are far more difficult to track than lerk in my experience).
maybe i'm a masochist and enjoy playing 'hard mode' critters... i don't know... but i really like the fade and on average i've dealt way over 50 res damage per life to the marine team.
if fade was any better you could probably solo the average marine pub team :P
edit: speed stats:
skulk: 7 (can get over 10 with good momentum building) lerk: 11 (this is top speed after several flaps of teh wings) fade blink: 17 (55% faster than lerk top speed and can preserve momentum with jump/double jump) fade shadowstep: 21 (90% faster than lerk and can preserve momentum with jump/double jump)
as you can see - lerks and skulks are snail pace compared to the fade.
Against good Marines, the Fade is only useful for roaming the map and picking off/weakening solo/duo Marines without shotguns. It's not a matter of l2p - 250/50 is 350 effective hp, meaning a LMG at w0 will kill you in 35 bullets. That's 70% of a LMG clip. Against two Marines, each one only has to put in 18 bullets. You can literally die to two solid SG hits if Marines have weapons upgrades - ask yourself how much time it takes for a shotgun to fire twice. The Fade's fragility severely limits what situations it can jump into and reasonably expect to survive. It doesn't matter how good your movement is because there are limits to how much damage you can juke. The only time it's really useful is when there's a large disparity in player skill.
Let's not even get into "hit-and-run". Assuming the Fade can actually survive going in, landing a few hits, and running out, he now has to get healed... meanwhile, the damage he done is healed by the Armory before the Fade can even finish healing and going back in for another exciting round of Russian Roulette.
fades are easy to kill solo. shotty for decent fades, lmg for newbies. really good players can still master it... but for the rest... i'd say give it some minor buff... armor maybe, idk
Comments
when the game starts the balance is almost perfect, mid game is a toss up, late game i find marines to show how OP they can be with level 3's and exo
why did onos get nerfed and exo gets buffed? onos is 75 res, DUAL exo is 75 res, if the player has decent aim a dual exo will ALWAYS kill a carapaced onos 1v1 with celerity it will be very close but if the exo does not miss a shot which is not too hard, it will win assuming they both have full health
when the game starts the balance is almost perfect, mid game is a toss up, late game i find marines to show how OP they can be with level 3's and exo
why did onos get nerfed and exo gets buffed? onos is 75 res, DUAL exo is 75 res, if the player has decent aim a dual exo will ALWAYS kill a carapaced onos 1v1 with celerity it will be very close but if the exo does not miss a shot which is not too hard, it will win assuming they both have full health<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Matters on range. If the EXO gets off a few shots before the onos reaches it, sure. But a Cloaked Onos that walks up to an EXO no hope.
Also most onos travel with gorges. Bile Bomb [disable Mac]+ onos stomp [to disable marine welder] - exo dies.
Also Alien comander can drop Onos egg, Marine commander can't drop Dual Exo.
There is quite a bit of disparity
I think the fades need a nerf on later armor and damage. Say 5 hits late game on a marine.
Currently, a tier 3 armor marine vs a late game fade it takes 3 swipes or 2 to head two to body.
Its attack speed is much too high for the damage it does, while the shotgun, the "anti fade", can only shoot one shell every second and a half or so.
IMO, Fade REALLY needs a late game energy and armor/health rework. Literally every game I have played the fade absolutely destroys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in my opinion, fades are too weak in the late game. in the early game they're quite powerful but only if ppl know how to use him and mid game, he shines.
you basically need adren and cara and blink for fade, otherwise, he's just a large, slow skulk.
He's pretty well balanced in my opinion.
Although Vortex should be opted out for another ability instead.
It rarely does anything useful in pub games and is even rarer on competitive games.
when the game starts the balance is almost perfect, mid game is a toss up, late game i find marines to show how OP they can be with level 3's and exo
why did onos get nerfed and exo gets buffed? onos is 75 res, DUAL exo is 75 res, if the player has decent aim a dual exo will ALWAYS kill a carapaced onos 1v1 with celerity it will be very close but if the exo does not miss a shot which is not too hard, it will win assuming they both have full health<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you sure about the exo vs onos thing?
i don't play either onos or exo because the skill ceiling is too low, but in my experience onos wins by a mile... i'm pretty sure onos does structure damage against exo (ignoring armor), ergo the onos only needs to do 580 damage to kill - unlike skulk which needs to deal 1160 damage (armor = 2xhp) to kill an exo.
Mines dont blow up when a shadowstepping or blinking fade goes over them.
<!--quoteo(post=2032313:date=Nov 22 2012, 09:46 AM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 22 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You fail to look at the issue from other angles. Maybe the health pool is an issue in your opinion because the fade has to stay stationary longer to actually deal damage, so it's more susceptible to taking damage? Increasing burst damage (focus) would help without making the fade impossible to kill if he always runs back to heal (which is boring even to the fade player).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You dont balance a lifeform around/assuming it has to have a certain upgrade to be useful.
Again fades are not meant to attack bases, they do minimal structural damage so save up and buy an onos or go lerk and spam umbra on the onos...
As for killing a fade in 2 shots, first of all this is why a fade should get cara, and second aim/skill>life form if your claiming that you would rather be a S/G rine then a fade in a 1v1 you have yet to see a decent fade.
300/150; + Carapace 300/250
NS 2 Fade Health/Armor:
250/50; + Carapace 250/100
Fades wasent weak in NS1. Why in hell they are in NS2? hmmmm. no idea
i don't play either onos or exo because the skill ceiling is too low, but in my experience onos wins by a mile... i'm pretty sure onos does structure damage against exo (ignoring armor), ergo the onos only needs to do 580 damage to kill - unlike skulk which needs to deal 1160 damage (armor = 2xhp) to kill an exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You always talk like such a jackass, people would respect your posts more if you didn't always qualify them by saying how good you are when I don't even know you as a competitive player, but instead as the guy with 400 posts in a couple weeks.
Onos does only 100dmg a hit to exos - 6 hits to kill an unwelder armor 3 exo.
Exo does heavy damage so its 1x1 for the onos armor.
Onos beats exo if its 1v1 but if theres 2 exos they will typcially kill an onos before they even start doing any damage.
I already acknowledged this earlier in the thread which you obviously didn't bother to read.
<!--quoteo(post=2032095:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:34 PM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 22 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the marines are hugging an armory nearby then it feels like there's even no point in trying to get hits in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this is another topic of discussion, and in no way a counter-argument for what I said. Bringing back focus would make it easier to snipe armoury-hugging marines though.
As for killing a fade in 2 shots, first of all this is why a fade should get cara, and second aim/skill>life form if your claiming that you would rather be a S/G rine then a fade in a 1v1 you have yet to see a decent fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i seen some decent fades, not going point out names but lets just say i see him play on tournaments
one more thing, cara fades is bad too i do think its 2 shot not 100 percent sure
i use fade more often than onos, because i prefer being more mobile and because onos in pub is too fking easy and boring.
i believe that UWE will have to tread very carefully around fade/shotgun balance, because if a shotgunner/marine cannot kill a fade then it makes it literally impossible for marines to go anywhere alone. the onos is expensive and super slow, on the other hand a fade can move accross the entire map in a few seconds. it would mean that a single above average fade on the other team could make you (an above average marine) absolutely powerless.
sure fade should probably be >50% against an <b><u>EQUALLY</b></u> skilled shotgunner, but for all i (and you) know - that could already be the case. i know for a fact that with shotgun; i'm >50% at killing lower skill fades, but i've never really seen a good fade.
i feel nauseous at the idea of a fade being a match for two equal skilled maine players. this game is good because players are capable of doing well on their own, at least until the terrifying 'monster unit' onos is on the field - does the game really need another onos? i don't think so.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> because that doesn't look like balance to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I heavily disagree with this. That's exactly what the fade is supposed to be, a heavy harrass pusher. He's the banshee in SC2. If you bunch up your army he becomes weak, but if you're scattered around he makes life hell for you. The fade should be a legitimate threat to 2 AR marines, and he should be outmatched by 2 SG marines, and with 1 SG and 1 AR it should be a player skill issue.
The fade is slower at killing power nodes, extractors, and what not than the skulk is. He gives you about 10 more seconds to get another guy with you to counter what he's doing in the field. But I'd argue that his role is to free up skulks doing harrassment by taking over it himself. A harrassing fade is supposed to weaken the marine primary army because if they want to stop it, they just need to have more than 1 guy to do it. It currently doesn't do that, Someone just buys a shotgun and fixes the problem.
5 fades won't be an auto win because of the basic mechanics of melee vs ranged. 5 marines can instantly kill any fade that gets near to them, and fades must close ground in order to progress. You will lose at least a majority of your fades if you try to push a team of 5 marines, and you will lose a much higher investment than the marines have made unless they have exos (in which case you'll probably lose all of your fades without doing much). 5 fades should be able to kill off 5 shotgun marines in open combat, but there won't be a way to do that without taking heavy losses yourself.
Composition is a more important factor for aliens. Lerks blind marines with gas, fades distract shots without putting themselves in any real danger, and skulks do the bulk of the damage. That's the most cost effective kharra army (more or less) vs 5 shotgun marines.
That said, I think the current design of the Fade is somewhat flawed. It's too heavily based on evasion, which is ultimately unreliable no matter how good you are and results in very frustrating deaths for the average player. It feels too all-or-nothing; either you evade all the shots and slaughter the marines, or they nail you and you're dead. In NS1 the Fade was pretty slippery, but he still usually took a few hits in each fight, which is why he had metabolize. I think I would rather that the Fade's armor were buffed, he got metabolize back, and his evasion abilities were nerfed somewhat in exchange.
Fades only kill bad players. Fades are one of the easiest lifeforms to kill or make retreat. I would rather play against an entire team of Fades because I know they will be at the hive healing for 70% of the game.
Armories are not just "in base". They are EVERYWHERE. Every phase gate gets an armory and if marines start pushing any good comm will drop them an armory immediately.
Eh ... the glancing stuff? It's actually a boost - the size of the attack was trippled, so getting a full blow in is exactly as difficult as it was before the glancing blows were added. Any glancing blow is actually an attack that would have missed before.
What he's saying is he'd like a significantly larger full damage cone. It certainly would make the fade easier to play for pubbies. I see it as one of those things that raises the skill floor without doing much to the ceiling.
I think it's a fair point, the Fade is way more mobile than a Skulk so aiming his swipes precisely is considerably more difficult. Seems reasonable for it to be more forgiving.
And then it was reduced to 90 degree angles.. then it was finally reduced to what it is now.
For a hit and run "assassin" he really should require precise aiming (and its not even that precise when you have a marine at melee distance taking up 70% of your screen)
Bug afaik, Charlie said in a Q and A that dual exo drop was coming.
Take 3 shots from a shotgun to kill a carapace Fade.
Fade swipe faster than man
Man not shoot at same speed
Man team not matter because man with shotgun should = Fade
Comments? Flames?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, without reading the entire thread. I'll start off by saying you're wrong on values.
It's 4 swipes with Armor 3 (plenty of time to dodge/get 3 shotgun shells in)..
And it Fades might swipe faster but you are forgetting 1. a Marine can fire first as the Fade is coming in 2. It is likely another marine will be with you and get some rifle/shotgun damage in..
And 3. a shotgun is 20Pres.. a Fade is 50Pres/50Tres..
So saying the Fade is overpowered is wrong in my opinion.
i believe that UWE will have to tread very carefully around fade/shotgun balance, because if a shotgunner/marine cannot kill a fade then it makes it literally impossible for marines to go anywhere alone. the onos is expensive and super slow, on the other hand a fade can move accross the entire map in a few seconds. it would mean that a single above average fade on the other team could make you (an above average marine) absolutely powerless.
sure fade should probably be >50% against an <b><u>EQUALLY</b></u> skilled shotgunner, but for all i (and you) know - that could already be the case. i know for a fact that with shotgun; i'm >50% at killing lower skill fades, but i've never really seen a good fade.
i feel nauseous at the idea of a fade being a match for two equal skilled maine players. this game is good because players are capable of doing well on their own, at least until the terrifying 'monster unit' onos is on the field - does the game really need another onos? i don't think so.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> because that doesn't look like balance to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, fade is 50 pres. Two marines should be scared of him. That's a really big pres investment. I know you used the big yelling red text, but 50 pres is an exosuit; how silly would you sound if you were screaming your head off about "DO YOU WANT A SITUATION WHERE FIVE EXOS CAN BEAT FIVE SKULKS!?" For that matter, fade should not be 50% against a shotgunner. That's the point- something worth 40% of your investment is currently very scary to a fade, because going up against a shotgunner can be a coin flip right now. For a marine to be able to invest so much less and have an even shot at winning isn't fun for the fade. The 40% cost doesn't figure in the fact that if you beat the shotgunner, he will probably come pick up his gun for free after you inevitably have to retreat to heal, halving the effective res investment.
Once again- yes, I do want a situation where marines run a risk if they go out without teammates. If your idea of good marine/alien balance is that marines should be able to run out on their own and be effective and not be afraid of dying, then I'm glad you're not in charge of balance.
<!--quoteo(post=2032379:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:11 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 22 2012, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You dont balance a lifeform around/assuming it has to have a certain upgrade to be useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2032381:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:19 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 22 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for killing a fade in 2 shots, first of all this is why a fade should get cara, and second aim/skill>life form if your claiming that you would rather be a S/G rine then a fade in a 1v1 you have yet to see a decent fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just the point, though- you're saying that "oh only bad fades don't use cara" but the lead playtester above you just said you shouldn't balance assuming you have upgrades. Right now, fade really isn't that good without blink, without cara, and generally without at least silence or adren right now. You shouldn't need 2-3 hives of upgrades for someone to even want to consider playing it.
secondly I think a buff to vortex would help with late game fades reduce the energy cost and buff the time just still keep it that you can only have 1 vortex active per fade at a time.
i'm still laughing from when you said "Fades only kill bad players."
i didn't play NS1 and if i did then maybe i would feel differently... but perhaps that gives me an impartial view of the NS2 fade; i love it.
as onos, you always have to be extremely concerned with over extending. fade doesn't have this problem because your design is ideal for hit and run. sure it's frustrating when there's 2 shotgunners, or even a lone shotgunner who gets a meatshot and you're forced to retreat - but you're still far more effective and resilient than a lerk minus the ranged attack (blink and shadowstep are far more difficult to track than lerk in my experience).
maybe i'm a masochist and enjoy playing 'hard mode' critters... i don't know... but i really like the fade and on average i've dealt way over 50 res damage per life to the marine team.
if fade was any better you could probably solo the average marine pub team :P
edit: speed stats:
skulk: 7 (can get over 10 with good momentum building)
lerk: 11 (this is top speed after several flaps of teh wings)
fade blink: 17 (55% faster than lerk top speed and can preserve momentum with jump/double jump)
fade shadowstep: 21 (90% faster than lerk and can preserve momentum with jump/double jump)
as you can see - lerks and skulks are snail pace compared to the fade.
Let's not even get into "hit-and-run". Assuming the Fade can actually survive going in, landing a few hits, and running out, he now has to get healed... meanwhile, the damage he done is healed by the Armory before the Fade can even finish healing and going back in for another exciting round of Russian Roulette.