Give me NO-POWER-NODE MOD!
spacedaniel
Join Date: 2009-11-11 Member: 69348Members
Join Date: 2009-11-11 Member: 69348Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Excuse me but WTF just happened? Oh, the power went down...</div>For the first time in NS2 history I'm actually a tad pissed off. Why?
Because after a few games, losses, as rines, me and a few guys I've never met before discussed tactics
and proceeded to play a very nice game. OK I'm not the best commander, I don't have printed sheets
of counter-tactics nor stats/time-graphs for each decision but that game was pretty awesome.
We lost.
I commanded as mentioned so the blame is mine but the guys that played were amazing!
I kept talking, they kept listening, jumping from base to base (we had 3 , aliens 2) answering
all incoming threats, repairing, shooting and dying for king and spaceship. They bloody well deserved
to win...
What happens? 2 minutes of aliens pushing the power-off switch and game over.
There's nothing similar for the alien side. Sure, assymetrical, but then scratch the alien commander
and just copy NS1 style.
I've always wondered why aliens often in the past ignored the power node and started take down
the base piece by piece. Perhaps we, the beta players, liked playing. But when it's not fun
any more - boom, power down, byebye rines.
Defend it? With what? 3 measly sentrys? Too expensive to get, too little bang for the buck.
Mines? Placed too close together they'll just go off all at once.
Too loose and aliens just walk past them. Too costly.
Charlie, I know you've had the power node concept in mind for a long time but his might actually
be a case of "kill-your-darlings", even better, shove in the airlock and press "open".
Too many awesome games are just dying when it starts to get interesting.
<b>
So, calling out for a NO-POWER-NODE MOD!
Pretty please someone!?</b>
Because after a few games, losses, as rines, me and a few guys I've never met before discussed tactics
and proceeded to play a very nice game. OK I'm not the best commander, I don't have printed sheets
of counter-tactics nor stats/time-graphs for each decision but that game was pretty awesome.
We lost.
I commanded as mentioned so the blame is mine but the guys that played were amazing!
I kept talking, they kept listening, jumping from base to base (we had 3 , aliens 2) answering
all incoming threats, repairing, shooting and dying for king and spaceship. They bloody well deserved
to win...
What happens? 2 minutes of aliens pushing the power-off switch and game over.
There's nothing similar for the alien side. Sure, assymetrical, but then scratch the alien commander
and just copy NS1 style.
I've always wondered why aliens often in the past ignored the power node and started take down
the base piece by piece. Perhaps we, the beta players, liked playing. But when it's not fun
any more - boom, power down, byebye rines.
Defend it? With what? 3 measly sentrys? Too expensive to get, too little bang for the buck.
Mines? Placed too close together they'll just go off all at once.
Too loose and aliens just walk past them. Too costly.
Charlie, I know you've had the power node concept in mind for a long time but his might actually
be a case of "kill-your-darlings", even better, shove in the airlock and press "open".
Too many awesome games are just dying when it starts to get interesting.
<b>
So, calling out for a NO-POWER-NODE MOD!
Pretty please someone!?</b>
Comments
I have two responses...
Defend your power node better. NanoShield your power node, beacon marines back to base, have a few sentries and mines.
and
The Power Nodes concept honestly does need to be tweaked. Its not really possible to do anything against an 4+ onos rush with 2 gorges.
Unless you are prepared ahead of time in anticipation for the attack and even then... its tough.
How - is - that - possible?!?!?
All you nee are a few skulks. *peeooooowgngngnnng - klick, bzzzz*
@ Ohnojojo
OK, the nanoshield is a viable option but time limited. How much damage does it repell per attack?
Was it 100% or 50% I honestly don't remember.
Oh BTW, we did all but nanoshield, I guess I could have put up more Observatorys close by, next room
(which you need now a days or the cloaked dogs will eat you).
How - is - that - possible?!?!?
All you nee are a few skulks. *peeooooowgngngnnng - klick, bzzzz*
@ Ohnojojo
OK, the nanoshield is a viable option but time limited. How much damage does it repell per attack?
Was it 100% or 50% I honestly don't remember.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All you need is one dude, preferably carrying a gun. Shoot at those skulks and they die.
<a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=100103964&searchtext=classic" target="_blank">NS2c</a>
And yes, I tend to agree that the current implementation of the powernodes being just and on or off switch is a bit lacking. The initial idea was something along the lines of Company of Heroes control points and have it be important for map control and tech. But there simply wasn't enough time to work on it before v1.0. The current implementation of power grid vs cyst chains feels incomplete...
as far as I know. Just yank it out :)
Dammit, I need to learn lua....
What?? Noooo! What is that!!!???
Perhaps they could make it so that power node health at tech points (with a command station) is higher based on how much of the map they control. Each (additional) tech point and active extractor could add X amount of health/armor to the (active) tech point power nodes. That way aliens can still do an early game rush, and the marines can still be taken out when they lose control of the map.
If we are fully upgraded, have three bases and suddenly an onos, a fade and a gorge dances in and just eats up the power,
it just doesn't feel... fun.
<b>Why can't the power grid be an accelerator? Sentrys shoot faster, buildings go up faster, research is faster, more res per second in
an unbroken chain from RT. NOT AN OFF SWITCH</b>
It's not even logical (if I'm allowed a rant, don't pick on it) why would marines go in under those circumstances??
Honestly, it would be like sending in soldiers in to Iraq drenched in gasoline and pink overalls.... "Hey! you there! Yeah you!... SHOOT ME!"
And it seems like UWE used the latest patch to make it so that you can't destroy the holographic power nodes until they are built, which is just stupid. You have some blue enemy tech thingy in your base and can't do anything about it. And if it's been built to 90% before you could stop the enemies, you can't deny that 90% either but have to wait for an enemy to finish building it again. If I wouldn't have seen them doing other questionable changes already, I would have assumed this to be a bug.
Perhaps they could make it so that power node health at tech points (with a command station) is higher based on how much of the map they control. Each (additional) tech point and active extractor could add X amount of health/armor to the (active) tech point power nodes. That way aliens can still do an early game rush, and the marines can still be taken out when they lose control of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>
Good idea! The nodes further in on the chain gets tougher and tougher but the end is weak. Combined with it not being essential (without power everything is 50% slower, even spawn).</b>
See, lots of good ideas! :)
How - is - that - possible?!?!?
All you nee are a few skulks. *peeooooowgngngnnng - klick, bzzzz*
@ Ohnojojo
OK, the nanoshield is a viable option but time limited. How much damage does it repell per attack?
Was it 100% or 50% I honestly don't remember.
Oh BTW, we did all but nanoshield, I guess I could have put up more Observatories close by, next room
(which you need now a days or the cloaked dogs will eat you).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its 50%? I don't know off the top of my head either but I'm pretty sure its 50%.
Combine with a beacon and a competent marine team, and you can even hold off a push of like 3 onos and a couple fades and gorges.
The cool down for nano shield is like 5 seconds... I think... I don't remember. People need to update NS2 Wiki.
Alien Commander has drifters to scout the map without using alien players.
Marine Commander has MACs, but they stay in base. If you want to sacrifice MACs for scouting ability, do it.
Marine Commander has Observatories, which are cheap, 15 T-Res, only 5 more than for a forward armory.
Marine Commander has scans, but if you use them constantly to check for rushes, it can get expensive. With experience, you'll be able to get a feeling of when a rush MIGHT be coming. (For example if all aliens suddenly stop harassing and defending, they might be organizing an attack)
What I'm trying to say is that Alien rushes should almost never be a surprise or result in power going out, IF you are vigilant and obsessive about scouting.
I just don't understand how you can play well and deserve to win, and yet be unable to defend your power node. Really, whenever I see aliens taking out the power node in my base, nine times out of ten it's because they already own 3/4 of the map and storm it with onos+gorge.
If they keep rushing your base, leave one or two guys in base to defend, it's that simple. If they surprise you and no one is in base, you beacon.
The problem is, you don't remember the times the node <b>doesn't </b>get destroyed. You don't walk into a room and think "Wow, the node is still alive, it must be really strong". No, you just focus on the times it goes down. You lose a game, you look for an excuse, and you take the easy route. You could give the power node electrification, a push back effect, double the health, whatever you want, but the one time it does go down, through some monumental marine failure, rest assured people will find a reason to complain about it.
And yes, I tend to agree that the current implementation of the powernodes being just and on or off switch is a bit lacking. The initial idea was something along the lines of Company of Heroes control points and have it be important for map control and tech. But there simply wasn't enough time to work on it before v1.0. The current implementation of power grid vs cyst chains feels incomplete...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still wish NS2 had spent maybe another year to make this game as close to perfect as possible.
I agree Kouji. Don't get me wrong though, I love that its finally out!
And its still one of the most solid and complex team-oriented games out there... if not the best. I can't think of another game that is so....unique and executed well.
But cysts and power grids, definitely feel incomplete.
So do ARCs and EXOs and Sentries and Fades and Gorges and etc.
If we are fully upgraded, have three bases and suddenly an onos, a fade and a gorge dances in and just eats up the power,
it just doesn't feel... fun.
<b>Why can't the power grid be an accelerator? Sentrys shoot faster, buildings go up faster, research is faster, more res per second in
an unbroken chain from RT. NOT AN OFF SWITCH</b>
It's not even logical (if I'm allowed a rant, don't pick on it) why would marines go in under those circumstances??
Honestly, it would be like sending in soldiers in to Iraq drenched in gasoline and pink overalls.... "Hey! you there! Yeah you!... SHOOT ME!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I gotta say as a assassin gorge I do that ###### all the time and its extremely effective even solo. Usually in the middle of big pushes Ill belly slide up to the marines main base and go for the power or maybe an arms lab...Works great. I'm actually surprised that more comms don't get out of the chair to kill me.
I agree Kouji. Don't get me wrong though, I love that its finally out!
And its still one of the most solid and complex team-oriented games out there... if not the best. I can't think of another game that is so....unique and executed well.
But cysts and power grids, definitely feel incomplete.
So do ARCs and EXOs and Sentries and Fades and Gorges and etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At some point, you need to accept that nostalgia is telling you that NS1 was better than it actually was. When you dislike everything that's different, while being fine with everything that remained the same, you need to take a step back and think about it, logically.
The problem is, you don't remember the times the node <b>doesn't </b>get destroyed. You don't walk into a room and think "Wow, the node is still alive, it must be really strong". No, you just focus on the times it goes down. You lose a game, you look for an excuse, and you take the easy route. You could give the power node electrification, a push back effect, double the health, whatever you want, but the one time it does go down, through some monumental marine failure, rest assured people will find a reason to complain about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes you do have a good point, however I'm talking mid game, not early game. Early is not the problem. Usually, as someone wrote, it's enough with 1-2 marines just fending off.
BUT when a game is fun during mid-game, it's balanced, some ground lost, some gained and everyone is having fun it IS a bit frustrating (note understatement)
when it takes just a few seconds to loose a base after all options have been exhausted to protect the observatory or power node.
And again, yes, valid point that the aliens just have the hive, but they have two things going for them, base-wise - 1) res: mid game res is usually abundant, just rebuild.
2) Whips: verry nice, especially now with the "baseball whips" almost negating nades
And I'm not afraid to loose a few games, my win-loose ratio is an imaginary number...
BUT it's concerns me that this feature takes so much fun out of the game. OK, it's exciting to get the power up
but not at the cost of a fair fight mid-game.
Just saying, it would be nice to explore gameplay without power nodes.
Yeah, as soon as you get a damage message you need to scan. Easy to miss in all the excitement :)
Bile is awesome though. Good that the gorges have a role to play.
How - is - that - possible?!?!?
All you nee are a few skulks. *peeooooowgngngnnng - klick, bzzzz*
@ Ohnojojo
OK, the nanoshield is a viable option but time limited. How much damage does it repell per attack?
Was it 100% or 50% I honestly don't remember.
Oh BTW, we did all but nanoshield, I guess I could have put up more Observatorys close by, next room
(which you need now a days or the cloaked dogs will eat you).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seriously are unable to kill a few skulks? Unless you're ignoring armor and weapon upgrades and nobody uses shotguns you should be curb-stomping skulks by mid-late game with vanilla marines. If your team can't do something as simple as phase gate or beacon back to a base that a skulk is attacking then you deserve to lose, hit and runs are only effective if you fail to react to them in time. You have everything you need to see an Alien attack coming.
And if you're down to 1 base you're going to lose anyway, there is no recovery if you haven't expanded to 2-3 bases by mid-late game.
In NS2, base powernodes are VERY weak compared to the marine base in NS2. Aliens used to have to target obs, IPs and phase gate to effectively shut down marine start. Consequently you would more often see tactics plays... such as, rather than trying to kill the base by shutting down marines ability to get in all at once, take down the arms lab instead so you can kill marines in the field easier instead. Take down the advanced armory so you can delay prototype tech and stop the comm from dropping HMGs.
In NS2, you CAN do these things, but it's a little silly as all you have to kill is the powernode and it shuts down all these things.
It's not really an issue with a high skilled comm. You get very used to being extremely itchy on the beacon button... However, this mechanic is BRUTALLY punishing to a low to mid skill level comm. It doesn't announce very aggressively that you are losing your base powernode, It's a generic "structure is under attack" message, it blips once, and you just sort of have to look around to find the area that the problem is in if you miss the click that is up for about 5 seconds (it's a lot of time, but if you're busy dropping meds it's very missable). 3 skulks take down a power node in less than 30 seconds... so you basically have about half the time it takes a marine to build an RT to respond to the attack. Many new comms just outright miss a single skulk working on a node, let alone a few working together.
We need a game mechanic in place so the metagame of public servers doesn't ENTIRELY become "oh crap, 2 minutes have passed, time to rush the powernode again!". As it stands that's the way the game is moving. Many comms will get better and better at adopting extremely dynamic defensive strategies like the current mines (mines are a must right now for example, even though they are absurdly overpriced out of being useful aggressively), but they're very temporary, situational, and easy to get around. They are also something the comm doesn't personally apply. If marines choose to not drop mines on the Marine Start power node, well, too bad, they want shotguns more than they want to win, shouldn't have relied on your team to be smart comm! Of course you can t-res mines... but from my experience they have a bad habit of going through phase gates and ending up sitting in random useless hallways. Even when you specifically say "mine the power node please"
It's like SC2 having all your tech in a line next to each other, getting doom dropped and complaining about losing your tech.
<!--quoteo(post=2031479:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:39 PM:name=spacedaniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spacedaniel @ Nov 21 2012, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I commanded as mentioned so the blame is mine but the guys that played were amazing!
I kept talking, they kept listening, jumping from base to base (we had 3 , aliens 2) answering
all incoming threats, repairing, shooting and dying for king and spaceship. They bloody well deserved
to win...[/b]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How the heck did you have 3 bases and only have the infantry portals in one?
Instead of looking at how you lost, look at why you lost.
<!--quoteo(post=2031479:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:39 PM:name=spacedaniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spacedaniel @ Nov 21 2012, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, assymetrical, but then scratch the alien commander
and just copy NS1 style. [/b]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is Natural Selection 2, not Natural Selection 1.5
So give command chairs the ability to power buildings (but not, like i said, lights) that removes the gorge effect. With that in place you can lower the power node hp/armour making it less of a time-waste at other places in the map. Finally add some proper game-ending abilities for aliens (3 hive abilities getting a significant effect boost for example, maybe increasing the tres cost to match), or a siege weapon kind of thing similar in effectiveness to an ARC.
It's like SC2 having all your tech in a line next to each other, getting doom dropped and complaining about losing your tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS2, every marine base has an Artosis pylon. If we can ridicule Artosis for it, why can't we ridicule marines? :P
I agree Kouji. Don't get me wrong though, I love that its finally out!
And its still one of the most solid and complex team-oriented games out there... if not the best. I can't think of another game that is so....unique and executed well.
But cysts and power grids, definitely feel incomplete.
So do ARCs and EXOs and Sentries and Fades and Gorges and etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's a little insane. Sure that's your opinion but I love the game in it's current state and wish I had a bit more time to play it more than I can. I seriously doubt they could have lasted another year to come out with what you regard as 'perfect'. What's wrong with playing it and having fun now and seeing it progress over time into what you consider to be perfect?
I loved NS1 but at no point I've wished anything from NS1 because I'm finding it the same with more. It's freaking amazing man! All I want to see are some extra maps as I feel I've played the current ones enough but I guess that's where the community are going to pick things up (as well as the ones UWE say are on the way). At no point have I ever felt that NS2 is incomplete.
If this was Activision or EA they would leave it as it is and charge you for map packs down the line with zero potential for the community to extend it any further.
I don't have enough experience to contribute to the balance of Power Nodes but I'm creative enough to throw out a few ideas:
- UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supplies) that the commander can place down in case the power is taken out in a rush.
- When power is taken out, structures still work but they're dropped to something like 50% efficiency. Armour/Weapon upgrades are reduced by an amount, percentage. Infantry Portals drop to a % of the time required to spawn marines. MAC's stop working/malfunction. Armoury only generates health at say 50% of the current rate, can't accept purchases or perhaps no longer heal your armour.
Obviously I'm not a balance guy and I don't know enough but I quite like the structures still working but reduced efficiency idea as it gives skulks less of an advantage when rushing at the start of the game and also gives the alien a bit more of a choice when it comes to picking what they want to take out. Do they want to reduce the efficiency of those buildings or take out the other items?
I think the loss of lighting in base is already a nice advantage. Perhaps the observatory should stop altogether so the marines can't track aliens zooming around in the dark.