<!--quoteo(post=2031580:date=Nov 21 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Dramel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dramel @ Nov 21 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only games I have been in where the power went down for the marines at their base is always when they were distracted, like say an Onos attacking the Command Station while his buddies attack the power. Early hit and run when the marine commander is too preoccupied and didn't get welders, really only if marines are distracted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't encountered not having welders as being a problem. But I'm good marines never sit on their thumbs in base. A good 60% of the games I'm losing as marine are lost to powernode rushes. Not even counting games where it was already over and they happened to kill the powernode first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How the heck did you have 3 bases and only have the infantry portals in one? Instead of looking at how you lost, look at why you lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because they cost money, which is being spent on other things that you actually need in the NOW, not in the "maybe we will lose base 1". 3 bases are expensive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See, this is Natural Selection 2, not Natural Selection 1.5<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like how sequel numbers in the game industry most often mean "backward progress"
I honestly haven't figured out the gameplay reason for powernodes yet, aside from making marine bases absurdly weak to ninja rushes. Ninja rushes already did good damage in NS1, why did they need to be so massively more potent? I don't like this mechanic where a 1 second lapse in concentration results in losing the game. I'd rather the team that consistently lost engagements because they were a worse team of players ultimately lose the game, rather than win because an overpowered low investment gamble finally paid off. Alien slot machine basically..... It's not as fun as a game where combat is balanced to be back and forth naturally.
It should cost marines SOMETHING leaving big gaps in defense in their inner bases, I just don't think it should so consistently cost them everything.
<!--quoteo(post=2031517:date=Nov 21 2012, 04:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 21 2012, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At some point, you need to accept that nostalgia is telling you that NS1 was better than it actually was. When you dislike everything that's different, while being fine with everything that remained the same, you need to take a step back and think about it, logically.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um... NS1 was great, but it wasn't all that perfect either and it certainly wasn't that great in the beginning v1.0. It was best at around v2.0, then it started to go down hill. I'm only saying that NS2 could've been a stronger title at launch if more time was taken to think things through in terms of game design choices/concepts, but overall any minor gripes I have with the game are over shadowed by how much fun I'm having with it. And just as I've seen NS1 get better and better...(though worse after v2.0) I'm sure that NS2 will only get better and better.
<!--quoteo(post=2031675:date=Nov 21 2012, 06:41 PM:name=intellix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (intellix @ Nov 21 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's a little insane. Sure that's your opinion but I love the game in it's current state and wish I had a bit more time to play it more than I can. I seriously doubt they could have lasted another year to come out with what you regard as 'perfect'. What's wrong with playing it and having fun now and seeing it progress over time into what you consider to be perfect?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I've said to imbalaxd above.... I love the game, but as a huge fan of both NS1 and NS2... its only natural to have wanted to see more time and effort put into it before launch......... NOT THAT I'M SAYING that the developers were lazy or whatever. They put their necks out to create a game, whose niche community of avid fans are basically nonexistent after 10 years. 10 years after a mod for a game that most casual gamers nowadays have no clue exists. Go ahead, ask a casual gamer if they know what halflife is. Or ask them if they know that counterstrike is essentially a mod of halflife. Or ask them if they know anything about blue shift or ricochet or day of defeat. And those are the popular valve games of the late 90's... How would any casual modern gamer know anything about natural selection? My point is, the developers took a huge risk, with a tiny staff and with the help of diehard fans and the blood, sweat and tears of everyone involved. An amazing game was made.
I really don't see this as an issue, power nodes are really hard to kill and quickly repairable. Marines structures don't die if you cut off a cyst chain. You also can more quickly build a new comm chair than a hive.
TBH if I kept loosing from power nodes then I would question my strategy. I generally will take out Obs first to prevent beacon, then PG if there is one. Obs doesn't even have armor.
<!--quoteo(post=2031676:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:43 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 22 2012, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how sequel numbers in the game industry most often mean "backward progress"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give me a single example, in the history of the world, where a sequel was unanimously considered better than the original.
Even though I don't see the power node as a weakness, or a game breaking problem, I would kind of like to see power packs reinstated. 10 res to power a single structure sounds like fair trade to me, and allows for a lot more strategic freedom.
I agree that the marines currently rely too much on their buildings which in turn all of them rely on a single frail power node.
armory, phase gates, observatory, arms lab, proto lab.. all of them aside from comm chair rely on that single power node in the room.. once it's taken out, marines lost all access to the benefits of the buildings and they're bare naked!
I dont quite understand... ive found the power nodes to be rather sturdy. I never see them being taken very quickly, at least not before a marine could theoretically get to them.
While I don't see this as such a big problem (in my 70h of playing I can't remember a marine loss because of the power being taken down, except when they where turtling away in their last base anyway), I do like some of the ideas in this thread.
- designated warning message for power node being attacked - unpowered bases still function, but everything is slower (say 33-50%?) - base point power nodes have more HP or can be upgraded by the commander
I think UWE should really consider these suggestions.
One thing I wanted to mention though, because someone wrote it is not a viable option anymore to attack anything besides the power node: Everytime I attack a marine base, no matter if I'm alone or with the pack, and no matter the lifeform, I first attack the pg and/or obs. They go down alot faster then the power node and when they are down you usually have all the time in the world to wreck away to your hearts content. It works quite well, though, if you think this is a clumsy approach, I wouldn't mind some input.
<!--quoteo(post=2031880:date=Nov 22 2012, 06:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 22 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give me a single example, in the history of the world, where a sequel was unanimously considered better than the original.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might as well ask for a historic time when there was world peace; these should be close enough nevertheless:
Dune II > Dune I Gothic II > Gothic I Warcraft III > Warcraft II > Warcraft I Duke Nukem 3D > Duke I&II Little Big Adventure II > Little Big Adventure I Natural Selection II > Natural Selection I :P
Power nodes should power the lights. If the node goes down then COMPLETE darkness (other than obs circles or exo circles). Buildings would still function though (perhaps you cannot put NEW buildings down on unpowered areas to stop the armoury spam?)
<!--quoteo(post=2031502:date=Nov 22 2012, 06:57 AM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Nov 22 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And it seems like UWE used the latest patch to make it so that you can't destroy the holographic power nodes until they are built, which is just stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That does sound like a bug, happened at one point in beta and was changed under it being broken/wrong.
In response to OP.... This whole argument is silly and UWE have already come out and explained why in some of the dev qanda's
Did you wonder why NS1 was plagued with people f4'ing or marines recycling? It was due to aliens not being able to take down obs, PG,s, IP's, sentries and marines once marines had tech'd up. This led to long drawn out encounters...or more commonly sides recycling or f4'ing and conceding....this is not a good way for games to end as aliens almost never get to actually win. By adding the power switch aliens can actually win those games...and if you dont protect it they will win others they shouldn't.
Even with the power node I see marines turtle last way too long on a lot of maps, but if you have 3 bases and you lose them all well then I would suggest you where out played. After all you had beacons, phase gates, IP's, sentries, macs etc all at your disposal.
Oh and Power packs was tried previously...you could set one up for an IP and keep spawningn after lights out. Was patched out a long time ago and we ended up with a sentry battery instead which continue firing after lights out to help marines get the power back up (after all you can do that you know).
Power nodes are invaluable to provide an asymmetric game experience for commanders. This happens when you're the alien commander:
“Guys, there's a marine at our hive. I want one out you to kill himâ€
“He's axing the hive RT. That guy at Repair, come and kill him.â€
“Dude at Repair, stop killing that useless power node that powers nothing and come to the hive. I'm a gorge at other locationâ€
“Ok, he found the shade. He's axing it too.†*frantically pushes mousebutton 3*
“Great, he's axing the upgrades. For the love of god, those guys doing nothing on the ceiling waiting for marines to pass under you, come to the hiveâ€
“All upgrades are gone. Good job, guys.â€
“He's axing the hive nowâ€
“Hive at 80%â€
“Hive at 60%â€
“Hive at 50%â€
“Hive at 30% get him ffsâ€
“Hive at 20%â€
“Hive at 10%â€
“Hive is goneâ€
“WTF noob comm, get us leap!â€
While if you're a marine commander is more like this:
“Oh god an onos and a skulk on the power node. Quick where's the obs press beacon...†*Weeee weee* *poof* *weoooooeoooooo*
All you nee are a few skulks. *peeooooowgngngnnng - klick, bzzzz*
@ Ohnojojo OK, the nanoshield is a viable option but time limited. How much damage does it repell per attack? Was it 100% or 50% I honestly don't remember.
Oh BTW, we did all but nanoshield, I guess I could have put up more Observatorys close by, next room (which you need now a days or the cloaked dogs will eat you).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahaha yeah all you need are a few skulks and a team full of very oblivious marines.
There is, however, an issue of balance related to team size. The smaller the teams, the more the match favors aliens. The larger the teams, the more the match favors marines.
This is due to the inherent design of NS2: The fact that aliens don't need to be present to expand whereas the marines do have to be present. This becomes extremely apparent when you've got tiny teams like the OP had in his game. You cant afford to leave a marine behind to defend main base, let alone cover all of your RTs. Couple that with the fact that its a lot easier to egg lock with more people on the team and you've got a scaling balance issue that affects both teams. Something about this game's balance needs to shift as the teams change in size. I have no idea what should change though.
If a ninja marine gets into an alien hive: - kill the upgrade chambers (amazingly painful for the alien team). - kill eggs. (with >1 marine). (if the aliens have not taken a shift hive, this is again very painful) - attack the hive, and with comm support, have 'a' chance of killing it. - skulks forced to defend a hive can often be forced across a large expansive of empty space - target practice.
That's 3 things a ninja marine could do which can have a profound effect on the match outcome.
If a ninja skulk gets into the alien base, he doesn't really have a lot of options: - most structures can be rebuilt near-instantly with no great effect on the marine team. - the comm can stick a MAC on whatever you attack, and/or put nano on it. - the phasegate means an alert marine is usually a couple of seconds away. - the fast respawn time, means a slow marine is also frequently around 2 seconds away. - beacon means the entire marine team is also a few seconds away. - lack of range & health means the skulk tends to go splat the second a marine appears.
I find it much more game-changing to ninja a hive than try to ninja a defended marine base.
<!--quoteo(post=2032292:date=Nov 22 2012, 11:59 AM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 22 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a ninja marine gets into an alien hive: - kill the upgrade chambers (amazingly painful for the alien team). - kill eggs. (with >1 marine). (if the aliens have not taken a shift hive, this is again very painful) - attack the hive, and with comm support, have 'a' chance of killing it. - skulks forced to defend a hive can often be forced across a large expansive of empty space - target practice.
That's 3 things a ninja marine could do which can have a profound effect on the match outcome.
If a ninja skulk gets into the alien base, he doesn't really have a lot of options: - most structures can be rebuilt near-instantly with no great effect on the marine team. - the comm can stick a MAC on whatever you attack, and/or put nano on it. - the phasegate means an alert marine is usually a couple of seconds away. - the fast respawn time, means a slow marine is also frequently around 2 seconds away. - beacon means the entire marine team is also a few seconds away. - lack of range & health means the skulk tends to go splat the second a marine appears.
I find it much more game-changing to ninja a hive than try to ninja a defended marine base.
Not sure if anything needs to change...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if the aliens went shift hive killing eggs is very painful. I just played on a 12v12 server and even with a shift we were easily egg locked. Mostly once we ran out of res, which the expensive ass eggs made happen.
Eggs need to spawn faster and have higher health on higher population servers.
The problem with nodes is now aliens have a single focal point to act on. All aliens have to do is focus entirely on the node. And the entire base \ ips \ portals everything is shutdown. If marines are lucky to have a 2nd base with ips, they have to leg it. Considering marines are generally slower then aliens thats alot of legging. They also loose access to their advanced weapons and utilities if they lost their 2nd CC.
Once more and more alien players realise this. You will just see massive power node rushes.
----
In the case of aliens it really doesn't matter. Marines have to target every building mainly Eggs and Hive. But since marines have limited ammo - they will need massive support to effectively do the same thing.
-----
If you could upgrade the power node to an EMP pulse station. So every "pulse" of the power node drops aliens stamina 15% that is near it. This upgrade can only be done in bases where a CC is in the same room. I think that should delay node destruction enough and be enough deterrent for a mass node attack.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2031479:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:39 PM:name=spacedaniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spacedaniel @ Nov 21 2012, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 minutes of aliens pushing the power-off switch 3 measly sentrys? Mines? Placed too close together they'll just go off all at once. Too loose and aliens just walk past them. Too costly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some things you did wrong ^
If you left aliens gnaw on your base power for that long.. Sentries are a delaying factor _at best_ Mines are worth every penny if spread out appropriately
But honestly.. if you let the power go out before beaconing / having marines phase back.. you get what you get. The symmetry you are looking for is 2, maybe 3 shotgun marines entering a hive that is unattended and egg locking the team.. way more frustrating as you can prevent the team from spawning in less than those 2 minutes you mentioned, usually only a few seconds and the only threat becomes any aliens alive elsewhere on the rest of the map.
<!--quoteo(post=2032265:date=Nov 22 2012, 05:25 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 22 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is, however, an issue of balance related to team size. The smaller the teams, the more the match favors aliens. The larger the teams, the more the match favors marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct!
On another topic, I realize there's no way I can relay/share my experiences which led to this post. I better start recording my games. That would be a nice function for a mod as well. A replay mode, like in company of heroes.
Basically there's two answers to the node issue: 1) "The game is perfect as it is, you just suck at it." 2) There's room for improvement for power nodes as game mechanic.
Either way we'll all, most likely, be dead within 50-60 years so #### it, I'm gonna find a server and have some fun :)
I never learn how utterly useless forum rants are, really. And it's not like UWE haven't thought about the power nodes, they aren't going to read this, noone's gonna do that mod and I should stop caring. Better write this down until next time...
It's a ###### and downright entirely pointless mechanic really, all it does is confuse newer players and cause frustration. Sure the aeshetic of it is nice, but you could have that even without a power node system.
If only it would alert the comm when the power in the one of the cc rooms is going down. But I think it will be a while before the comming UI for both teams stops being complete crap that any RTS player would spit on with contempt since there is more important stuff to work on.
<!--quoteo(post=2032391:date=Nov 22 2012, 02:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 22 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some things you did wrong ^
If you left aliens gnaw on your base power for that long.. Sentries are a delaying factor _at best_ Mines are worth every penny if spread out appropriately
But honestly.. if you let the power go out before beaconing / having marines phase back.. you get what you get. The symmetry you are looking for is 2, maybe 3 shotgun marines entering a hive that is unattended and egg locking the team.. way more frustrating as you can prevent the team from spawning in less than those 2 minutes you mentioned, usually only a few seconds and the only threat becomes any aliens alive elsewhere on the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can always stop egg locking by making a shift outside the hive room. And spawning eggs there. Majority of the time marines are so busy shooting the hive, they never search outside for the shift.
Perhaps a backup power battery that can be built, that provides power for a certain duration after power node goes down. If attack on power is somehow missed, battery gives wiggle-room for commander to beacon. Then the marines would need to clear and rebuild power node. If they fail (or the aliens can delay them long enough), battery goes down and full power loss occurs. Since it's a building, aliens could also just destroy it and the power node for complete power down (without having to wait for battery to die).
Some balance issues to work out regarding cost, battery life and whether you can stack multiple batteries or limited to 1 per sector.
<!--quoteo(post=2031491:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:47 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 21 2012, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you know about phase gates, beacons, welders, macs, nanoshield, dropping a second cc, sentries, hopping out of your command seat yourself to shoot the buggars? You just have to keep watch on that power node in base. There are enough ways to react. If aliens manage to take it out, they deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree.
I really like the current implementation of power nodes and I hope they don't get changed. The Marines just need to be a little more careful. It kind of reminds me of how Aliens had to be careful and watch out for ninja phase gates in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2032419:date=Nov 22 2012, 09:54 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 22 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a ###### and downright entirely pointless mechanic really, all it does is confuse newer players and cause frustration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain how it is confusing for a <b>power </b>node which provides <b>power </b>to a room to be necessary in order to keep structures <b>powered</b>. I think people just throw in "and it confuses new players" whenever they talk about a mechanic they don't like, and they just hope it sticks. Not this time I'm afraid.
On that note, explain how the power node mechanic causes frustration, other than the frustration of losing, which I assume we aren't trying to do away with altogether, right?
<!--quoteo(post=2032391:date=Nov 22 2012, 08:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 22 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some things you did wrong ^
If you left aliens gnaw on your base power for that long.. Sentries are a delaying factor _at best_ Mines are worth every penny if spread out appropriately
But honestly.. if you let the power go out before beaconing / having marines phase back.. you get what you get. The symmetry you are looking for is 2, maybe 3 shotgun marines entering a hive that is unattended and egg locking the team.. way more frustrating as you can prevent the team from spawning in less than those 2 minutes you mentioned, usually only a few seconds and the only threat becomes any aliens alive elsewhere on the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I ment that it was a push period of a couple of minutes where all of our 3 bases fell. All by power failure. This was after a long period of actually holding back, and counterattacking, by using PGs, beacons and repairing. After a while, someone killed the obs at one end and then the power went. We didn't loose any other structure before that. And I will try to get better at setting up power node defenses, it's what rines are all about, obviously.
And ninjas in hives? Never had that happen to me, whips are cheap and effective against "lone gunmen". Going com for rines is always "ah s_hit, lets try this then, oh, close ah crap... endgame for 15 minutes+", but for aliens is just "humptidumptidump, a cyst there... and there, whips and stuff, upgrade this ahh, we won...again...fun".
To parafrase others: "if you loose as alien com, you are doing it wrong"
Comments
I haven't encountered not having welders as being a problem. But I'm good marines never sit on their thumbs in base. A good 60% of the games I'm losing as marine are lost to powernode rushes. Not even counting games where it was already over and they happened to kill the powernode first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How the heck did you have 3 bases and only have the infantry portals in one?
Instead of looking at how you lost, look at why you lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they cost money, which is being spent on other things that you actually need in the NOW, not in the "maybe we will lose base 1". 3 bases are expensive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See, this is Natural Selection 2, not Natural Selection 1.5<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like how sequel numbers in the game industry most often mean "backward progress"
I honestly haven't figured out the gameplay reason for powernodes yet, aside from making marine bases absurdly weak to ninja rushes. Ninja rushes already did good damage in NS1, why did they need to be so massively more potent? I don't like this mechanic where a 1 second lapse in concentration results in losing the game. I'd rather the team that consistently lost engagements because they were a worse team of players ultimately lose the game, rather than win because an overpowered low investment gamble finally paid off. Alien slot machine basically..... It's not as fun as a game where combat is balanced to be back and forth naturally.
It should cost marines SOMETHING leaving big gaps in defense in their inner bases, I just don't think it should so consistently cost them everything.
Um... NS1 was great, but it wasn't all that perfect either and it certainly wasn't that great in the beginning v1.0.
It was best at around v2.0, then it started to go down hill.
I'm only saying that NS2 could've been a stronger title at launch if more time was taken to think things through in terms of game design choices/concepts, but overall any minor gripes I have with the game are over shadowed by how much fun I'm having with it.
And just as I've seen NS1 get better and better...(though worse after v2.0) I'm sure that NS2 will only get better and better.
<!--quoteo(post=2031675:date=Nov 21 2012, 06:41 PM:name=intellix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (intellix @ Nov 21 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's a little insane. Sure that's your opinion but I love the game in it's current state and wish I had a bit more time to play it more than I can. I seriously doubt they could have lasted another year to come out with what you regard as 'perfect'. What's wrong with playing it and having fun now and seeing it progress over time into what you consider to be perfect?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I've said to imbalaxd above.... I love the game, but as a huge fan of both NS1 and NS2... its only natural to have wanted to see more time and effort put into it before launch.........
NOT THAT I'M SAYING that the developers were lazy or whatever. They put their necks out to create a game, whose niche community of avid fans are basically nonexistent after 10 years. 10 years after a mod for a game that most casual gamers nowadays have no clue exists.
Go ahead, ask a casual gamer if they know what halflife is.
Or ask them if they know that counterstrike is essentially a mod of halflife.
Or ask them if they know anything about blue shift or ricochet or day of defeat.
And those are the popular valve games of the late 90's... How would any casual modern gamer know anything about natural selection?
My point is, the developers took a huge risk, with a tiny staff and with the help of diehard fans and the blood, sweat and tears of everyone involved. An amazing game was made.
TBH if I kept loosing from power nodes then I would question my strategy. I generally will take out Obs first to prevent beacon, then PG if there is one. Obs doesn't even have armor.
Give me a single example, in the history of the world, where a sequel was unanimously considered better than the original.
Even though I don't see the power node as a weakness, or a game breaking problem, I would kind of like to see power packs reinstated. 10 res to power a single structure sounds like fair trade to me, and allows for a lot more strategic freedom.
armory, phase gates, observatory, arms lab, proto lab.. all of them aside from comm chair rely on that single power node in the room.. once it's taken out, marines lost all access to the benefits of the buildings and they're bare naked!
Yall need to just pay attention :P
- designated warning message for power node being attacked
- unpowered bases still function, but everything is slower (say 33-50%?)
- base point power nodes have more HP or can be upgraded by the commander
I think UWE should really consider these suggestions.
One thing I wanted to mention though, because someone wrote it is not a viable option anymore to attack anything besides the power node:
Everytime I attack a marine base, no matter if I'm alone or with the pack, and no matter the lifeform, I first attack the pg and/or obs. They go down alot faster then the power node and when they are down you usually have all the time in the world to wreck away to your hearts content.
It works quite well, though, if you think this is a clumsy approach, I wouldn't mind some input.
<!--quoteo(post=2031880:date=Nov 22 2012, 06:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 22 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give me a single example, in the history of the world, where a sequel was unanimously considered better than the original.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might as well ask for a historic time when there was world peace; these should be close enough nevertheless:
Dune II > Dune I
Gothic II > Gothic I
Warcraft III > Warcraft II > Warcraft I
Duke Nukem 3D > Duke I&II
Little Big Adventure II > Little Big Adventure I
Natural Selection II > Natural Selection I :P
as CS 1.6 is to CS:S
Almost exact problems with the sequels.
That does sound like a bug, happened at one point in beta and was changed under it being broken/wrong.
In response to OP....
This whole argument is silly and UWE have already come out and explained why in some of the dev qanda's
Did you wonder why NS1 was plagued with people f4'ing or marines recycling? It was due to aliens not being able to take down obs, PG,s, IP's, sentries and marines once marines had tech'd up.
This led to long drawn out encounters...or more commonly sides recycling or f4'ing and conceding....this is not a good way for games to end as aliens almost never get to actually win. By adding the power switch aliens can actually win those games...and if you dont protect it they will win others they shouldn't.
Even with the power node I see marines turtle last way too long on a lot of maps, but if you have 3 bases and you lose them all well then I would suggest you where out played.
After all you had beacons, phase gates, IP's, sentries, macs etc all at your disposal.
Oh and Power packs was tried previously...you could set one up for an IP and keep spawningn after lights out.
Was patched out a long time ago and we ended up with a sentry battery instead which continue firing after lights out to help marines get the power back up (after all you can do that you know).
“Guys, there's a marine at our hive. I want one out you to kill himâ€
“He's axing the hive RT. That guy at Repair, come and kill him.â€
“Dude at Repair, stop killing that useless power node that powers nothing and come to the hive. I'm a gorge at other locationâ€
“Ok, he found the shade. He's axing it too.†*frantically pushes mousebutton 3*
“Great, he's axing the upgrades. For the love of god, those guys doing nothing on the ceiling waiting for marines to pass under you, come to the hiveâ€
“All upgrades are gone. Good job, guys.â€
“He's axing the hive nowâ€
“Hive at 80%â€
“Hive at 60%â€
“Hive at 50%â€
“Hive at 30% get him ffsâ€
“Hive at 20%â€
“Hive at 10%â€
“Hive is goneâ€
“WTF noob comm, get us leap!â€
While if you're a marine commander is more like this:
“Oh god an onos and a skulk on the power node. Quick where's the obs press beacon...†*Weeee weee* *poof* *weoooooeoooooo*
“######â€
How - is - that - possible?!?!?
All you nee are a few skulks. *peeooooowgngngnnng - klick, bzzzz*
@ Ohnojojo
OK, the nanoshield is a viable option but time limited. How much damage does it repell per attack?
Was it 100% or 50% I honestly don't remember.
Oh BTW, we did all but nanoshield, I guess I could have put up more Observatorys close by, next room
(which you need now a days or the cloaked dogs will eat you).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahaha yeah all you need are a few skulks and a team full of very oblivious marines.
There is, however, an issue of balance related to team size. The smaller the teams, the more the match favors aliens. The larger the teams, the more the match favors marines.
This is due to the inherent design of NS2: The fact that aliens don't need to be present to expand whereas the marines do have to be present. This becomes extremely apparent when you've got tiny teams like the OP had in his game. You cant afford to leave a marine behind to defend main base, let alone cover all of your RTs. Couple that with the fact that its a lot easier to egg lock with more people on the team and you've got a scaling balance issue that affects both teams. Something about this game's balance needs to shift as the teams change in size. I have no idea what should change though.
- kill the upgrade chambers (amazingly painful for the alien team).
- kill eggs. (with >1 marine). (if the aliens have not taken a shift hive, this is again very painful)
- attack the hive, and with comm support, have 'a' chance of killing it.
- skulks forced to defend a hive can often be forced across a large expansive of empty space - target practice.
That's 3 things a ninja marine could do which can have a profound effect on the match outcome.
If a ninja skulk gets into the alien base, he doesn't really have a lot of options:
- most structures can be rebuilt near-instantly with no great effect on the marine team.
- the comm can stick a MAC on whatever you attack, and/or put nano on it.
- the phasegate means an alert marine is usually a couple of seconds away.
- the fast respawn time, means a slow marine is also frequently around 2 seconds away.
- beacon means the entire marine team is also a few seconds away.
- lack of range & health means the skulk tends to go splat the second a marine appears.
I find it much more game-changing to ninja a hive than try to ninja a defended marine base.
Not sure if anything needs to change...
- kill the upgrade chambers (amazingly painful for the alien team).
- kill eggs. (with >1 marine). (if the aliens have not taken a shift hive, this is again very painful)
- attack the hive, and with comm support, have 'a' chance of killing it.
- skulks forced to defend a hive can often be forced across a large expansive of empty space - target practice.
That's 3 things a ninja marine could do which can have a profound effect on the match outcome.
If a ninja skulk gets into the alien base, he doesn't really have a lot of options:
- most structures can be rebuilt near-instantly with no great effect on the marine team.
- the comm can stick a MAC on whatever you attack, and/or put nano on it.
- the phasegate means an alert marine is usually a couple of seconds away.
- the fast respawn time, means a slow marine is also frequently around 2 seconds away.
- beacon means the entire marine team is also a few seconds away.
- lack of range & health means the skulk tends to go splat the second a marine appears.
I find it much more game-changing to ninja a hive than try to ninja a defended marine base.
Not sure if anything needs to change...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if the aliens went shift hive killing eggs is very painful. I just played on a 12v12 server and even with a shift we were easily egg locked. Mostly once we ran out of res, which the expensive ass eggs made happen.
Eggs need to spawn faster and have higher health on higher population servers.
Once more and more alien players realise this. You will just see massive power node rushes.
----
In the case of aliens it really doesn't matter. Marines have to target every building mainly Eggs and Hive.
But since marines have limited ammo - they will need massive support to effectively do the same thing.
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If you could upgrade the power node to an EMP pulse station. So every "pulse" of the power node drops aliens stamina 15% that is near it. This upgrade can only be done in bases where a CC is in the same room. I think that should delay node destruction enough and be enough deterrent for a mass node attack.
3 measly sentrys?
Mines? Placed too close together they'll just go off all at once.
Too loose and aliens just walk past them. Too costly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some things you did wrong ^
If you left aliens gnaw on your base power for that long..
Sentries are a delaying factor _at best_
Mines are worth every penny if spread out appropriately
But honestly.. if you let the power go out before beaconing / having marines phase back.. you get what you get.
The symmetry you are looking for is 2, maybe 3 shotgun marines entering a hive that is unattended and egg locking the team.. way more frustrating as you can prevent the team from spawning in less than those 2 minutes you mentioned, usually only a few seconds and the only threat becomes any aliens alive elsewhere on the rest of the map.
Correct!
On another topic, I realize there's no way I can relay/share my experiences which led to this post.
I better start recording my games.
That would be a nice function for a mod as well. A replay mode, like in company of heroes.
Basically there's two answers to the node issue:
1) "The game is perfect as it is, you just suck at it."
2) There's room for improvement for power nodes as game mechanic.
Either way we'll all, most likely, be dead within 50-60 years so #### it, I'm gonna find a server and
have some fun :)
I never learn how utterly useless forum rants are, really. And it's not like UWE haven't thought about the power nodes,
they aren't going to read this, noone's gonna do that mod and I should stop caring. Better write this down until next time...
If you left aliens gnaw on your base power for that long..
Sentries are a delaying factor _at best_
Mines are worth every penny if spread out appropriately
But honestly.. if you let the power go out before beaconing / having marines phase back.. you get what you get.
The symmetry you are looking for is 2, maybe 3 shotgun marines entering a hive that is unattended and egg locking the team.. way more frustrating as you can prevent the team from spawning in less than those 2 minutes you mentioned, usually only a few seconds and the only threat becomes any aliens alive elsewhere on the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can always stop egg locking by making a shift outside the hive room. And spawning eggs there. Majority of the time marines are so busy shooting the hive, they never search outside for the shift.
If attack on power is somehow missed, battery gives wiggle-room for commander to beacon.
Then the marines would need to clear and rebuild power node. If they fail (or the aliens can delay them long enough), battery goes down and full power loss occurs.
Since it's a building, aliens could also just destroy it and the power node for complete power down (without having to wait for battery to die).
Some balance issues to work out regarding cost, battery life and whether you can stack multiple batteries or limited to 1 per sector.
I completely agree.
I really like the current implementation of power nodes and I hope they don't get changed. The Marines just need to be a little more careful. It kind of reminds me of how Aliens had to be careful and watch out for ninja phase gates in NS1.
Explain how it is confusing for a <b>power </b>node which provides <b>power </b>to a room to be necessary in order to keep structures <b>powered</b>. I think people just throw in "and it confuses new players" whenever they talk about a mechanic they don't like, and they just hope it sticks. Not this time I'm afraid.
On that note, explain how the power node mechanic causes frustration, other than the frustration of losing, which I assume we aren't trying to do away with altogether, right?
<!--quoteo(post=2032391:date=Nov 22 2012, 08:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 22 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some things you did wrong ^
If you left aliens gnaw on your base power for that long..
Sentries are a delaying factor _at best_
Mines are worth every penny if spread out appropriately
But honestly.. if you let the power go out before beaconing / having marines phase back.. you get what you get.
The symmetry you are looking for is 2, maybe 3 shotgun marines entering a hive that is unattended and egg locking the team.. way more frustrating as you can prevent the team from spawning in less than those 2 minutes you mentioned, usually only a few seconds and the only threat becomes any aliens alive elsewhere on the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, I ment that it was a push period of a couple of minutes where all of our 3 bases fell. All by power failure.
This was after a long period of actually holding back, and counterattacking, by using PGs, beacons and repairing.
After a while, someone killed the obs at one end and then the power went. We didn't loose any other structure
before that. And I will try to get better at setting up power node defenses, it's what rines are all about, obviously.
And ninjas in hives? Never had that happen to me, whips are cheap and effective against "lone gunmen".
Going com for rines is always "ah s_hit, lets try this then, oh, close ah crap... endgame for 15 minutes+",
but for aliens is just "humptidumptidump, a cyst there... and there, whips and stuff, upgrade this ahh, we won...again...fun".
To parafrase others: "if you loose as alien com, you are doing it wrong"