I am a little surprised they went with the 3 hive onos option, as on some maps that effectively makes them impossible. Surely adding a 2-hive research option for the khammander to drop Fade eggs (20 tres research, 1 minute time) and Onos eggs (50 tres research, 2 minute time) wouldve solved the insta-rush option. That way the aliens still have the 'all in' option of going straight for onoses, in the same way the marines have equivalents (rushing exos, rushing jp/gls), but its just far less of a problem than 6 minute. Having to find another 50 tres along with a 2 minute research time on top of 2 hives means its a bigger risk (insta-hive drop is risky, saving 125 tres is very time consuming and risky), and delayed by 50 tres which for an alien team that hasnt taken half the map is tough.
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"
sure, but when the marines die they also lose their phase gate and therefore lose control of a tech point plus 1-2 RT's. so marines -2 RT's and aliens +2 RT's - that's a pretty big win for aliens. when aliens die they have a huge mobility advantage which enables them to reinforce and actually attempt to defend distant locations far easier than marines.
Honestly I can't understand all the alien tears over this change. The 6 minute Onos is now a 10 minute Onos and the aliens are <b>*STILL*</b> winning just as often. It's just taking them an extra 4 minutes. Just finished 5 marine games, didn't win a single one. So neither side should be up in arms. Anyone who is crying over the Onos change hasn't actually played it yet, and anyone saying it will make things better for marines hasn't played it yet either.
It's done nothing so far but prolong the game by a few minutes.
Let's be clear, I don't actually think the aliens are overpowered <b>*in principle*</b>.
The only two key things I want to see for marines are:
Electrified res nodes (which can be disabled by killing the power node - yuno actually make that game mechanic MEAN something) Improve EXOsuits. (Perhaps allow for nanoshield, and also allow for beacon to include EXOs as well. Lastly allow a single mini EXO to upgrade their EXO to dual mini if the tech is researched and they have the difference in pres to pay for it.)
The change to res nodes will help the marine early game, and the change to the EXO suits will help the late game. The aliens don't need 'nerfs'. I don't see them as OP. (I'm also fine with 3 hive Onos egg drop unless marine comm is able to drop dual mini EXOs)
I'd really love to see how those changes would impact the game. (Minus the obvious QQ that some might have over electrified res nodes, we had them in NS1 for a reason, and we have the same reason now.) Marines shouldn't have to set up a sentry nest at every node to hold it given how little time it takes to kill it. Let aliens take out the power node first, which will stop res flow just as well as killing the node will. The difference is that marines don't have to lose the res every time they wander 20 feet away from a node.
<!--quoteo(post=2030240:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:05 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wtf is wrong with the fade?
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"
sure, but when the marines die they also lose their phase gate and therefore lose control of a tech point plus 1-2 RT's. so marines -2 RT's and aliens +2 RT's - that's a pretty big win for aliens. when aliens die they have a huge mobility advantage which enables them to reinforce and actually attempt to defend distant locations far easier than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 - comparing an onos to a marine is incorrect sir
2 - sure pg goes down but its not 50 res to rebuild and that particular pg is not nearly as team crippling as losing higher lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=2030266:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 20 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I can't understand all the alien tears over this change. The 6 minute Onos is now a 10 minute Onos and the aliens are <b>*STILL*</b> winning just as often. It's just taking them an extra 4 minutes. Just finished 5 marine games, didn't win a single one. So neither side should be up in arms. Anyone who is crying over the Onos change hasn't actually played it yet, and anyone saying it will make things better for marines hasn't played it yet either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think you quite understand how timing work sir... Imagine me giving a man in WW1 an AK47... wouldnt make that much diferent to WW1... Now imagine me giving Alexander the Great an AK47...
I bet it would make much more diference due to being in the world a few centuries too early. Same was true with the onos, aliens won so well because they could get late game tech mid game! Now they have to rely on their midgame tech, most of which sucks.
<!--quoteo(post=2030266:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:28 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 20 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I can't understand all the alien tears over this change. The 6 minute Onos is now a 10 minute Onos and the aliens are <b>*STILL*</b> winning just as often. It's just taking them an extra 4 minutes. Just finished 5 marine games, didn't win a single one. So neither side should be up in arms. Anyone who is crying over the Onos change hasn't actually played it yet, and anyone saying it will make things better for marines hasn't played it yet either.
It's done nothing so far but prolong the game by a few minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You really can't understand the difference between 2 hives and 3 hives? Establishing 3 hives, especially considering the build time nerf, clearly means the aliens are already in a dominant position. Two hives on the other hand just means they're still in the game. It's the difference between the TRes Onos being the deciding factor in winning the game, or just being a game finisher.
<!--quoteo(post=2030274:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:38 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 20 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030274"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Same was true with the onos, aliens won so well because they could get late game tech mid game! Now they have to rely on their midgame tech, most of which sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yet despite supposedly 'sucking', they're still winning more games than marines. So either the midgame tech is fine, or the marine tech is even WORSE than the alien tech. Which is it?
<!--quoteo(post=2030283:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 20 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Establishing 3 hives, especially considering the build time nerf, clearly means the aliens are already in a dominant position. Two hives on the other hand just means they're still in the game. It's the difference between the TRes Onos being the deciding factor in winning the game, or just being a game finisher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Which is why the change was made. The aliens were using late game tech to win the game early. If the developers want to go that way, then let's start giving marine commanders the ability to drop dual-mini EXOs. No? That's the problem. We have one without the other.
Onos were never designed to be 'early game tech'. Same as EXOs. Both teams are plenty capable of winning an early game. I've seen it done WITHOUT an Onos, on many occasions. (perish the thought!)
Frankly I think people have become far too dependant on the early Onos, which tells me the devs made the right decision.
<!--quoteo(post=2030240:date=Nov 20 2012, 07:05 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wtf is wrong with the fade?
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"
sure, but when the marines die they also lose their phase gate and therefore lose control of a tech point plus 1-2 RT's. so marines -2 RT's and aliens +2 RT's - that's a pretty big win for aliens. when aliens die they have a huge mobility advantage which enables them to reinforce and actually attempt to defend distant locations far easier than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can you possibly say that when a marine dies he loses 2 RTs and a phase gate? By that argument when a fade dies they also lose 2 harvesters and a hive? A marine dying loses, on average, about 10 pres. A fade dying loses 50 pres. Now you might say that if a fade can therefore get 5 kills he is doing fine. The problem is that a fade can only safely try to pick off lone marines at the moment, since going into multiple marines gives you a reasonable chance of dying before you even get in there. If it was a skill limitation on the side of the fade then I wouldn't have an issue, but it isn't. The HP just isn't there to survive a lucky burst meaning that investment (which for an alien team is a significant one) is so risky people tend to avoid it. I am not saying the fade is useless, it just feels underwhelming when you have the onos at a bit more res, or the lerk at cheaper which seems to be reasonably comparable atm. I don't know what to do to the fade, as buffing the HP/Armour too high will mean it because a kill-machine, but currently it just feels too much like a glass cannon. A glass cannon that is getting shot at.
Your onos argument is more comparing onos/marine and exo/skulk, and so not relevant to discussing fades. (Onos/marine and exo/skulk are imo about even).
<!--quoteo(post=2030302:date=Nov 20 2012, 10:59 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 20 2012, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yet despite supposedly 'sucking', they're still winning more games than marines. So either the midgame tech is fine, or the marine tech is even WORSE than the alien tech. Which is it?
Which is why the change was made. The aliens were using late game tech to win the game early. If the developers want to go that way, then let's start giving marine commanders the ability to drop dual-mini EXOs. No? That's the problem. We have one without the other.
Onos were never designed to be 'early game tech'. Same as EXOs. Both teams are plenty capable of winning an early game. I've seen it done WITHOUT an Onos, on many occasions. (perish the thought!)
Frankly I think people have become far too dependant on the early Onos, which tells me the devs made the right decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I want to say I think its great that Onos drop is gone. But saying that fades are fine is just ignorance. They are not fine, they are only good at fighting very small groups of marines. Otherwise they are too fragile for their size. It is very easy for the marines to focus and kill them whenever fades pop up.
Regarding win stats....there are less then 24hours of stats on the current patch.
Other reasons why alien win percentage might be higher
1) New players are still clustering up in the marine portal, vets can't be bothered with that so just go alien
2) Marine is much more dependent on having a competent commander then alien (most commanders are sub par)
3) Craigs got buffed out of control, short of exos, a hive with a couple crags near by is really hard to kill because of that.
4) New regen seems a bit too strong on lerks (my opinion)
<!--quoteo(post=2030302:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:59 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 20 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yet despite supposedly 'sucking', they're still winning more games than marines. So either the midgame tech is fine, or the marine tech is even WORSE than the alien tech. Which is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or... due to the way pubs work it doesn't actually matter which team is stronger. That <i>could</i> be it also.
It isn't really the Onos third-hive nerf that's causing outrage. (Or it shouldn't be.)
It's all the other random buffs and nerf's that were slid in along side it. Shift structure costs a ton now. Camo actually works. Regen actually works. Fade is even more of a joke than ever. These are all game-changing on their own, but put in along side no T.Res Onos it makes for an unrecognizable Aliens experience at the moment.
I wish NS2Stats would show how long an average game is for Aliens when they win vs how long a Marines average win is.
Egg lock being a round-long phenomena is what I'm sick of already. If a hive is under attack by two Marines, and they manage to kill all the eggs? It's laughable how easy it is to egg lock aliens, and the structure that used to help offset the ease of egg-lock now costs an arm and a leg for even a few eggs. The timer is really what nerfed the Shifts into uselessness, but oh well. I guess it's cool for the Aliens to need to pay 2.5 T.Res for most alien spawns and wait forever in between every egg they spawn compared to the near-instant respawn from Marines. On bigger servers, those 'free' egg's the hive miserly hands out are simply <i>not enough</i> and the high cost of shift has made it <i>very</i> unattractive. Skulk rushes can now break the bank and waste all the teams T.Res! <i>Hooray</i> for Marines, right? Now killing a basic skulk hurts more than ever while killing a fully upgraded Marine still costs zero! (At worst, an IP pays for itself after 4 spawns at the same cost as eggs. Shifts are equaled in cost of eggs after four eggs.) Aliens are hindered twice by spawning. First it takes longer even if there is an egg, but if there is no egg? Aliens can be locked out of resources, and now locked out of spawning. I admit you need to consistently kill skulks for this effect to happen, but it happens a lot more than it did.
People gonna complain about those Onos drops, but it seems like the early game completely determines who win's now. There isn't much coming back from the Marines denying a third hive. Lerks and Fades are just not terribly effective at fighting more than a few Marines at a time. If their whole team is there, the Fades are toast. Gorge <i>would</i> be the answer, but their slide mechanic is just so darn useless as either a travel or escape mechanic by the time they get to a place to assault from the rest of the team is already dead. (Sometimes.)
Overall I like the changes, I just feel like the Fade is a very useless late mid-game unit. Part of that is their weak sauce structural damage, along with Lerks weak structural damage, combined to mean the gorges <i>must</i> go into the Marines and assault base to win now. It really makes it obvious how terrible spit is when assaulting, even if Bile Bomb is pimp daddy versus structures.
As someone else said, this change has illustrated how crappy Aliens mid-game is and that's pretty much it. It isn't the worst ever, or anything like that, it's just worse than Marines mid-game is all.
How is fade "more of a joke than ever"? Regen means you can actually stay on the map and harass without ever going back to the hive; while you can't attack a group of marines larger than 2 by yourself, that's fine. The shadow step change means you basically never run out of energy unless you are really bad. I wouldn't complain about more base armor or hp, but the regen buffs (and to a lesser extent, the camo buffs) were a serious buff to fade.
I know lots of people like playing on 24 player servers.. I do too sometimes. But you just have to accept that if you're going to fade or lerk against 11 marines, you have to be very patient and accept that you can only attack stragglers. That's cool, it makes the game more exciting for you and the marines. One guy stops to look back down the hallway while the rest of his team moves on, and he gets ganked and the fade is gone before everyone turns around. That to me is way cooler than a fade jumping into 4 marines and killing them all, which is the job of the Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2030385:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:04 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 20 2012, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is fade "more of a joke than ever"? Regen means you can actually stay on the map and harass without ever going back to the hive; while you can't attack a group of marines larger than 2 by yourself, that's fine. The shadow step change means you basically never run out of energy unless you are really bad. I wouldn't complain about more base armor or hp, but the regen buffs (and to a lesser extent, the camo buffs) were a serious buff to fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the rest of my post. Fades suck at base assault and suck vs Exo, yet they become your main assault force with Onos on third hive. Its possible to still win, its just that Aliens are on a timer now more than ever and without a third hive they're very weak versus Marines two CC units. Gorges are now the best NS2 unit mid-game, especially with a little lerk spore support, and don't actually need fades at all.
Thats basically it in a nutshell. Fades are now skippable as they weaken your teams ability to drop P.Res Onos to help take a third hive. Hit and run isn't a very valid base assault strategy, and aliens need base assault for the third hive not the ability to kill lost single Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2030303:date=Nov 20 2012, 07:00 PM:name=Tiomat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiomat @ Nov 20 2012, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>How can you possibly say that when a marine dies he loses 2 RTs and a phase gate? By that argument when a fade dies they also lose 2 harvesters and a hive? </b> A marine dying loses, on average, about 10 pres. A fade dying loses 50 pres. Now you might say that if a fade can therefore get 5 kills he is doing fine. The problem is that a fade can only safely try to pick off lone marines at the moment, since going into multiple marines gives you a reasonable chance of dying before you even get in there. If it was a skill limitation on the side of the fade then I wouldn't have an issue, but it isn't. The HP just isn't there to survive a lucky burst meaning that investment (which for an alien team is a significant one) is so risky people tend to avoid it. I am not saying the fade is useless, it just feels underwhelming when you have the onos at a bit more res, or the lerk at cheaper which seems to be reasonably comparable atm. I don't know what to do to the fade, as buffing the HP/Armour too high will mean it because a kill-machine, but currently it just feels too much like a glass cannon. A glass cannon that is getting shot at.
Your onos argument is more comparing onos/marine and exo/skulk, and so not relevant to discussing fades. (Onos/marine and exo/skulk are imo about even).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i already explained that in my post, you must have skipped that part. sorry, i cba repeating myself.
also, anything i said makes far more sense than your 'fade should theoretically be 5 times stronger than a marine, because it costs 5 times more' crap. use your noggin... what do you think would happen if the alien team gets 5 x fades? does that then mean the marine team needs 5 x more players in order to stand a chance?
it comes down to map control. when aliens die, they only lose map control if the marines are able to establish a phase gate, power, armory etc. when marines die, they lose their map control (PG) and have to start from square one.
edit: the only benefit of lerk over fade is the ranged attack, which is a significant benefit - but aside from ranged the lerk (275 ehp with carapace) is far weaker than fade (450 ehp) and therefore a load of tosh in enclosed areas. lerk is almost dead after 1 shotgun hit, fade requires 2.5 shotgun hits. that is significant. let's not forget that skulk does pretty well against an exo, so your 50 res doesn't necessarily guarantee a kill versus 20 res shotgun.
<!--quoteo(post=2030401:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:16 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: the only benefit of lerk over fade is the ranged attack, which is a significant benefit - but aside from ranged the lerk is far weaker than fade and therefore a load of tosh in enclosed areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going to argue the map control aspect, but I always thought the benefit of lerk over Fade had a lot more to do with their AoE gas that goes straight to HP rather than any ranged attack they might have. Not saying the ranged attack isn't great, but Spores is <i>far</i> better and I would take a Lerk and a few skulks or Gorges over a few Fades any day. Two lerks are only 10 P.Res more than one Fade, while still having the same ability to 'hit and run', if not a better ability to hit and run over-all.
Just my two cents, really. The only 'benefit' Fade gets is that it's a lot faster and has a few more HP. The downside is it's 100% single-target damage. It's <i>good</i> single-target, don't get me wrong, but Lerk gas is better IMO. Both together is probably the best, but even together it's kind of weak-sauce in base assault without Gorges, and with Gorges you don't really need the Fades for assault.
If the Marines team is splitting up into small groups, a fade might be better equipped to defend several positions. So a fade roams the map 'helping' by killing small roaming groups of Marines while the Gorges and Lerks do the heavy lifting in assaulting a Marines base for a third hive. They all have roles, it's just that a skulk or two would probably do about as well as a Fade in the same niche while ultimately allowing a few of those skulks to go Onos with P.Res and actually help in the base assault versus camping random corridors and sling-shotting through empty portions of the map.
Fade is better than skulk, but only marginally. They get an ok HP/AR increase, they get a tiny damage increase, and an <i>easier</i> movement mechanic. It's been said before, but Fades are just uberskulks that are actually slightly <i>worse</i> at killing structures. Nothing more, nothing less. For 50 P.Res, I would have hoped for something a bit more useful. Especially since a Lerk is actually more useful versus Exo's as well with the Spike attack.
<!--quoteo(post=2030240:date=Nov 20 2012, 11:05 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wtf is wrong with the fade?
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, getting 2-shot occurs pretty frequently with people who don't suck with shotguns and fades without cara.
And also, onos requires 3 hits to kill a marine with a3, costs 75 res, and is therefore comparable to a dual exosuit, not a marine.
If you want res/res comparisons, compare 2 marines with shotguns and jetpacks (30 res each, 60 total) a2w2 against a fade and a gorge/skulk (60/50 total). Given everyone is good, who would you bet on? I would bet on the marines with the shotguns, no second thoughts about it, every time. Two shotgunning jetpackers absolutely TROLL a fade into submission, no matter the fade's upgrades.
Also, when marines die they don't lose anything except jetpacks at 10 res, unless the aliens can then also defend the dropped weapons, because their teammates can pick up the weapons or they can run back and pick them up themselves.
Killed a marine with a GL or shotty? You've accomplished nothing unless the shotty is defended and disappears.
<!--quoteo(post=2030185:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:55 AM:name=kast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kast @ Nov 20 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gotta make fades <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>worth</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 50 res to really balance aliens now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, fade has needed a <u><b>SLIGHT</b></u> health buff for a long time. I'm just kind of concerned it will be completely overdone and back to fade land in 231 or whenever the change is made... lol. But I guess we will see.
<!--quoteo(post=2030323:date=Nov 20 2012, 04:13 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 20 2012, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First I want to say I think its great that Onos drop is gone. But saying that fades are fine is just ignorance. They are not fine, they are only good at fighting very small groups of marines. Otherwise they are too fragile for their size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sounds like it is working as intended to me.
Fade ≠Onos
Fades should only be good at fighting small groups of marines. If a fade could go in solo on a large group of marines that would be overpowered. Fade is like the single mini EXO, while it has advantages it has weaknesses as well. The fade is not a basebuster, it was never designed to be. If a person is dying to 8 marines when they go in alone as a fade, then they have just learned that fades are not invincible. Yet a fade can easily take on a group of a few marines, and with hit and run can have them dead in short order.
<!--quoteo(post=2030652:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:02 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 21 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, getting 2-shot occurs pretty frequently with people who don't suck with shotguns and fades without cara.
And also, onos requires 3 hits to kill a marine with a3, costs 75 res, and is therefore comparable to a dual exosuit, not a marine.
If you want res/res comparisons, compare 2 marines with shotguns and jetpacks (30 res each, 60 total) a2w2 against a fade and a gorge/skulk (60/50 total). Given everyone is good, who would you bet on? I would bet on the marines with the shotguns, no second thoughts about it, every time. Two shotgunning jetpackers absolutely TROLL a fade into submission, no matter the fade's upgrades.
Also, when marines die they don't lose anything except jetpacks at 10 res, unless the aliens can then also defend the dropped weapons, because their teammates can pick up the weapons or they can run back and pick them up themselves.
Killed a marine with a GL or shotty? You've accomplished nothing unless the shotty is defended and disappears.
Agreed, fade has needed a <u><b>SLIGHT</b></u> health buff for a long time. I'm just kind of concerned it will be completely overdone and back to fade land in 231 or whenever the change is made... lol. But I guess we will see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so you did your calculations where marines have upgrades (because 0w shotgun does 170 which does <b><u>not</b></u> 2-shot a fade), but didn't add carapace to the equation.
fade only gets 2-shot by a marine if you <b>(a)</b> go without carapace versus weapon upgrade marines <u>AND</u> <b>(b)</b> let them get a PERFECT shotgun hit on you and refuse to fall back.
ergo if you get 2-shot or even 3-shot by a marine then you were irrefutably outplayed.
edit: weapons disappear very quickly since 230... since then i've never been able to reclaim my own dropped weapon, even if i buy a jetpack and make a beeline to where i died. i don't know the exact timings, but i'm afraid that makes another one of your arguments kind of redundant.
What about say, requiring Tres Onos with 2 hives to cost 100 (or more) where Tres Onos with 3 Hives cost the normal 75?? I dont know if anyone is interested in that idea but maybe something to consider?
I had a quirky idea: - no tres or pres onos. - alien tres income dropped a bit. - a full health, mature hive produces an onos egg for free every 15 minutes. (if it gets injured, the timer stops until it's back to full health).
<!--quoteo(post=2031343:date=Nov 21 2012, 08:00 PM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 21 2012, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a quirky idea: - no tres or pres onos. - alien tres income dropped a bit. - a full health, mature hive produces an onos egg for free every 15 minutes. (if it gets injured, the timer stops until it's back to full health).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was your quirky idea to see marine turtle games go from hours in length to days?
I almost exclusively play Alien comm and I like the change... especially on my pub server...too many pub alien players were under the impression that if you don't drop an onos egg in 6 minutes you were doomed to lose. I never used that strat and still won 90% of the games I comm'd.
After playing a few games in this patch, I'm actually much preferring this change. It makes Onos as rare as they should be, without making them extinct.
<!--quoteo(post=2030240:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:05 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wtf is wrong with the fade?
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... Did you really compare a top tier tech unit against a base Marine as being an argument <i>against</i> the Fade being vulnerable? Really?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sure, but when the marines die they also lose their phase gate and therefore lose control of a tech point plus 1-2 RT's. so marines -2 RT's and aliens +2 RT's - that's a pretty big win for aliens. when aliens die they have a huge mobility advantage which enables them to reinforce and actually attempt to defend distant locations far easier than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if trolling.
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<!--quoteo(post=2031236:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:15 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 21 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so you did your calculations where marines have upgrades (because 0w shotgun does 170 which does <b><u>not</b></u> 2-shot a fade), but didn't add carapace to the equation.
fade only gets 2-shot by a marine if you <b>(a)</b> go without carapace versus weapon upgrade marines <u>AND</u> <b>(b)</b> let them get a PERFECT shotgun hit on you and refuse to fall back.
ergo if you get 2-shot or even 3-shot by a marine then you were irrefutably outplayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... And your Weapons 3 doesn't personally cost you 50 PRes/TRes if you die. It stays with you when you come back and you don't have to choose between it and the mutually exclusive upgrade, Bananas 2. And if both the Fade and Marine are equal, high-level skill players, the Marine with a Shotgun will win the encounter.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: weapons disappear very quickly since 230... since then i've never been able to reclaim my own dropped weapon, even if i buy a jetpack and make a beeline to where i died. i don't know the exact timings, but i'm afraid that makes another one of your arguments kind of redundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos are just so powerful...I don't think there's anything wrong with that BUT...it seems strange that they come up in every game now when a lot of Natural Selection games would just be "Oh they have Onos GG" (Not every time but often). It was more of an end game thing that could just mop up the remaining marines and not keep the game dragging on forever.
I would like for 5 Onos gangrape to be a little less frequent or stay out of some games altogether. They're too strong to be some inevitable upgrade, like the marines are on a timer and if they don't have extreme map control they lose once everyone goes Onos.
It is also just really easy to play alien as far as strategy goes (the FPS skills do take some practice). You can be sweating over your keyboard white knuckled on the marine team and lose. You can be talking on the phone, folding laundry, have little knowledge of the game and win consistently as aliens. The alien commander is the easiest most mindless thing ever.
If Marines don't have W3/A3 by 7-10 minutes their commander is doing something very very wrong. Any small chance of being useful the Fade had is completely gone at that point.
<!--quoteo(post=2031597:date=Nov 21 2012, 06:44 PM:name=Marty123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marty123 @ Nov 21 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos are just so powerful...I don't think there's anything wrong with that BUT...it seems strange that they come up in every game now when a lot of Natural Selection games would just be "Oh they have Onos GG" (Not every time but often). It was more of an end game thing that could just mop up the remaining marines and not keep the game dragging on forever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos was never anything more than victory flair in v3.0. The HMG was such a broken counter to it that Onos was never viable except in a "lol, they have an Onos...time to drop an HMG from my AA I had 5 minutes ago".
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As for Fade being useless... It's not completely worthless. It's just worthless unless you happen to, say, be me and really, <i>really</i> know how to maximize it. Basically means that you need to evaluate every single encounter on whether or not you can get away with attacking. The high mobility permits this but only on maps that aren't full of massive rooms...like Refinery. Which is kind of surprising, given that if Aliens can hold Lava Falls and keep Pipeline away from the Marines, it's incredibly hard to win as a Marine on that map. A map like Docking? I ###### love to go Fade on that map because it's full of turns, walls, and ceilings with cover.
But for the general pub player? Fade is 100% worthless. Too expensive for them to justify when an Onos costs only 50% more and is simply that much more idiot-proof. I think a Shadow Step-Swipe burst damage combo (like Charge) would go a long way towards making it more attractive to new players in its current state. Or something boring like a health/armor modification but seriously, I want some depth to it. :/
<!--quoteo(post=2030302:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:59 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 20 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yet despite supposedly 'sucking', they're still winning more games than marines. So either the midgame tech is fine, or the marine tech is even WORSE than the alien tech. Which is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alien midgame tech is weak, marine midgame tech is fine. But marines have an Achilles heel that is throwing balance stats to ###### (tech point power nodes).
That's my guesstimate right now. Marines are unable to both push their midgame tech advantage and keep the alien slot machine from paying off consistently (throw a couple skulks in the marine start slot, every once in a while you hit jackpot)
<!--quoteo(post=2031236:date=Nov 21 2012, 11:15 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 21 2012, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so you did your calculations where marines have upgrades (because 0w shotgun does 170 which does <b><u>not</b></u> 2-shot a fade), but didn't add carapace to the equation.
fade only gets 2-shot by a marine if you <b>(a)</b> go without carapace versus weapon upgrade marines <u>AND</u> <b>(b)</b> let them get a PERFECT shotgun hit on you and refuse to fall back.
ergo if you get 2-shot or even 3-shot by a marine then you were irrefutably outplayed.
edit: weapons disappear very quickly since 230... since then i've never been able to reclaim my own dropped weapon, even if i buy a jetpack and make a beeline to where i died. i don't know the exact timings, but i'm afraid that makes another one of your arguments kind of redundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The complaint is more, fades ARE getting soloed by shotty marines, and not exceptionally rarely, because they take longer to kill an armor 1 marine (for example) than an armor 1 marine takes to unload more than enough of a shotgun clip, and that it's very easy to instantly die as soon as you show your face if marines are a bit lucky.
Fades having a big hitbox that is mostly face high makes them easier to hit than skulks in a chaos situation.
For the record, at weapons 2 (which is a good midgame upgrade stat) against a carapasc fade, 26 shotgun pellets need to hit. One clip of the shotgun fires 80. You need less than a third of your pellets to hit from a single shotgun clip to kill a fade.
A marine fighting a fade with a shotgun is really not on a tight budget. The fade needs to sink the same number of swipes to kill the marine as the marine needs to sink to kill the fade generally speaking, both are using close range weapons, and the marine can whittle off health with near misses in the mean time. Fade has almost every disadvantage, and that's why they just don't feel that scary when you've got a shot gun.
Right now, to me, the smaller your hitbox is the better you're doing against shotguns until the onos comes out. Gorges and fades HATE shotguns.
Comments
Make spores a viable options (lerk is otherwise great, spores are a joke and a death sentance)
Then things should be fine, the thing is aliens haven o real mid game powerhouse like they need
Oh, and fades. Please. Something. Anything ...
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"
sure, but when the marines die they also lose their phase gate and therefore lose control of a tech point plus 1-2 RT's. so marines -2 RT's and aliens +2 RT's - that's a pretty big win for aliens. when aliens die they have a huge mobility advantage which enables them to reinforce and actually attempt to defend distant locations far easier than marines.
It's done nothing so far but prolong the game by a few minutes.
Let's be clear, I don't actually think the aliens are overpowered <b>*in principle*</b>.
The only two key things I want to see for marines are:
Electrified res nodes (which can be disabled by killing the power node - yuno actually make that game mechanic MEAN something)
Improve EXOsuits. (Perhaps allow for nanoshield, and also allow for beacon to include EXOs as well. Lastly allow a single mini EXO to upgrade their EXO to dual mini if the tech is researched and they have the difference in pres to pay for it.)
The change to res nodes will help the marine early game, and the change to the EXO suits will help the late game. The aliens don't need 'nerfs'. I don't see them as OP. (I'm also fine with 3 hive Onos egg drop unless marine comm is able to drop dual mini EXOs)
I'd really love to see how those changes would impact the game. (Minus the obvious QQ that some might have over electrified res nodes, we had them in NS1 for a reason, and we have the same reason now.) Marines shouldn't have to set up a sentry nest at every node to hold it given how little time it takes to kill it. Let aliens take out the power node first, which will stop res flow just as well as killing the node will. The difference is that marines don't have to lose the res every time they wander 20 feet away from a node.
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"
sure, but when the marines die they also lose their phase gate and therefore lose control of a tech point plus 1-2 RT's. so marines -2 RT's and aliens +2 RT's - that's a pretty big win for aliens. when aliens die they have a huge mobility advantage which enables them to reinforce and actually attempt to defend distant locations far easier than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 - comparing an onos to a marine is incorrect sir
2 - sure pg goes down but its not 50 res to rebuild and that particular pg is not nearly as team crippling as losing higher lifeforms.
I dont think you quite understand how timing work sir...
Imagine me giving a man in WW1 an AK47... wouldnt make that much diferent to WW1...
Now imagine me giving Alexander the Great an AK47...
I bet it would make much more diference due to being in the world a few centuries too early.
Same was true with the onos, aliens won so well because they could get late game tech mid game!
Now they have to rely on their midgame tech, most of which sucks.
It's done nothing so far but prolong the game by a few minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really can't understand the difference between 2 hives and 3 hives? Establishing 3 hives, especially considering the build time nerf, clearly means the aliens are already in a dominant position. Two hives on the other hand just means they're still in the game. It's the difference between the TRes Onos being the deciding factor in winning the game, or just being a game finisher.
Now they have to rely on their midgame tech, most of which sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yet despite supposedly 'sucking', they're still winning more games than marines. So either the midgame tech is fine, or the marine tech is even WORSE than the alien tech. Which is it?
<!--quoteo(post=2030283:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 20 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Establishing 3 hives, especially considering the build time nerf, clearly means the aliens are already in a dominant position. Two hives on the other hand just means they're still in the game. It's the difference between the TRes Onos being the deciding factor in winning the game, or just being a game finisher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Which is why the change was made. The aliens were using late game tech to win the game early. If the developers want to go that way, then let's start giving marine commanders the ability to drop dual-mini EXOs. No? That's the problem. We have one without the other.
Onos were never designed to be 'early game tech'. Same as EXOs. Both teams are plenty capable of winning an early game. I've seen it done WITHOUT an Onos, on many occasions. (perish the thought!)
Frankly I think people have become far too dependant on the early Onos, which tells me the devs made the right decision.
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"
sure, but when the marines die they also lose their phase gate and therefore lose control of a tech point plus 1-2 RT's. so marines -2 RT's and aliens +2 RT's - that's a pretty big win for aliens. when aliens die they have a huge mobility advantage which enables them to reinforce and actually attempt to defend distant locations far easier than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can you possibly say that when a marine dies he loses 2 RTs and a phase gate? By that argument when a fade dies they also lose 2 harvesters and a hive?
A marine dying loses, on average, about 10 pres. A fade dying loses 50 pres. Now you might say that if a fade can therefore get 5 kills he is doing fine. The problem is that a fade can only safely try to pick off lone marines at the moment, since going into multiple marines gives you a reasonable chance of dying before you even get in there. If it was a skill limitation on the side of the fade then I wouldn't have an issue, but it isn't. The HP just isn't there to survive a lucky burst meaning that investment (which for an alien team is a significant one) is so risky people tend to avoid it. I am not saying the fade is useless, it just feels underwhelming when you have the onos at a bit more res, or the lerk at cheaper which seems to be reasonably comparable atm. I don't know what to do to the fade, as buffing the HP/Armour too high will mean it because a kill-machine, but currently it just feels too much like a glass cannon. A glass cannon that is getting shot at.
Your onos argument is more comparing onos/marine and exo/skulk, and so not relevant to discussing fades. (Onos/marine and exo/skulk are imo about even).
Which is why the change was made. The aliens were using late game tech to win the game early. If the developers want to go that way, then let's start giving marine commanders the ability to drop dual-mini EXOs. No? That's the problem. We have one without the other.
Onos were never designed to be 'early game tech'. Same as EXOs. Both teams are plenty capable of winning an early game. I've seen it done WITHOUT an Onos, on many occasions. (perish the thought!)
Frankly I think people have become far too dependant on the early Onos, which tells me the devs made the right decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I want to say I think its great that Onos drop is gone. But saying that fades are fine is just ignorance. They are not fine, they are only good at fighting very small groups of marines. Otherwise they are too fragile for their size. It is very easy for the marines to focus and kill them whenever fades pop up.
Regarding win stats....there are less then 24hours of stats on the current patch.
Other reasons why alien win percentage might be higher
1) New players are still clustering up in the marine portal, vets can't be bothered with that so just go alien
2) Marine is much more dependent on having a competent commander then alien (most commanders are sub par)
3) Craigs got buffed out of control, short of exos, a hive with a couple crags near by is really hard to kill because of that.
4) New regen seems a bit too strong on lerks (my opinion)
Or... due to the way pubs work it doesn't actually matter which team is stronger.
That <i>could</i> be it also.
<!--quoteo(post=2030323:date=Nov 20 2012, 07:13 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 20 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other reasons why alien win percentage might be higher
1) New players are still clustering up in the marine portal, vets can't be bothered with that so just go alien
2) Marine is much more dependent on having a competent commander then alien (most commanders are sub par)
3) Craigs got buffed out of control, short of exos, a hive with a couple crags near by is really hard to kill because of that.
4) New regen seems a bit too strong on lerks (my opinion)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or these as well.
It's all the other random buffs and nerf's that were slid in along side it. Shift structure costs a ton now. Camo actually works. Regen actually works. Fade is even more of a joke than ever. These are all game-changing on their own, but put in along side no T.Res Onos it makes for an unrecognizable Aliens experience at the moment.
I wish NS2Stats would show how long an average game is for Aliens when they win vs how long a Marines average win is.
Egg lock being a round-long phenomena is what I'm sick of already. If a hive is under attack by two Marines, and they manage to kill all the eggs? It's laughable how easy it is to egg lock aliens, and the structure that used to help offset the ease of egg-lock now costs an arm and a leg for even a few eggs. The timer is really what nerfed the Shifts into uselessness, but oh well. I guess it's cool for the Aliens to need to pay 2.5 T.Res for most alien spawns and wait forever in between every egg they spawn compared to the near-instant respawn from Marines. On bigger servers, those 'free' egg's the hive miserly hands out are simply <i>not enough</i> and the high cost of shift has made it <i>very</i> unattractive. Skulk rushes can now break the bank and waste all the teams T.Res! <i>Hooray</i> for Marines, right? Now killing a basic skulk hurts more than ever while killing a fully upgraded Marine still costs zero! (At worst, an IP pays for itself after 4 spawns at the same cost as eggs. Shifts are equaled in cost of eggs after four eggs.) Aliens are hindered twice by spawning. First it takes longer even if there is an egg, but if there is no egg? Aliens can be locked out of resources, and now locked out of spawning. I admit you need to consistently kill skulks for this effect to happen, but it happens a lot more than it did.
People gonna complain about those Onos drops, but it seems like the early game completely determines who win's now. There isn't much coming back from the Marines denying a third hive. Lerks and Fades are just not terribly effective at fighting more than a few Marines at a time. If their whole team is there, the Fades are toast. Gorge <i>would</i> be the answer, but their slide mechanic is just so darn useless as either a travel or escape mechanic by the time they get to a place to assault from the rest of the team is already dead. (Sometimes.)
Overall I like the changes, I just feel like the Fade is a very useless late mid-game unit. Part of that is their weak sauce structural damage, along with Lerks weak structural damage, combined to mean the gorges <i>must</i> go into the Marines and assault base to win now. It really makes it obvious how terrible spit is when assaulting, even if Bile Bomb is pimp daddy versus structures.
As someone else said, this change has illustrated how crappy Aliens mid-game is and that's pretty much it. It isn't the worst ever, or anything like that, it's just worse than Marines mid-game is all.
I know lots of people like playing on 24 player servers.. I do too sometimes. But you just have to accept that if you're going to fade or lerk against 11 marines, you have to be very patient and accept that you can only attack stragglers. That's cool, it makes the game more exciting for you and the marines. One guy stops to look back down the hallway while the rest of his team moves on, and he gets ganked and the fade is gone before everyone turns around. That to me is way cooler than a fade jumping into 4 marines and killing them all, which is the job of the Onos.
Read the rest of my post. Fades suck at base assault and suck vs Exo, yet they become your main assault force with Onos on third hive. Its possible to still win, its just that Aliens are on a timer now more than ever and without a third hive they're very weak versus Marines two CC units. Gorges are now the best NS2 unit mid-game, especially with a little lerk spore support, and don't actually need fades at all.
Thats basically it in a nutshell. Fades are now skippable as they weaken your teams ability to drop P.Res Onos to help take a third hive. Hit and run isn't a very valid base assault strategy, and aliens need base assault for the third hive not the ability to kill lost single Marines.
A marine dying loses, on average, about 10 pres. A fade dying loses 50 pres. Now you might say that if a fade can therefore get 5 kills he is doing fine. The problem is that a fade can only safely try to pick off lone marines at the moment, since going into multiple marines gives you a reasonable chance of dying before you even get in there. If it was a skill limitation on the side of the fade then I wouldn't have an issue, but it isn't. The HP just isn't there to survive a lucky burst meaning that investment (which for an alien team is a significant one) is so risky people tend to avoid it. I am not saying the fade is useless, it just feels underwhelming when you have the onos at a bit more res, or the lerk at cheaper which seems to be reasonably comparable atm. I don't know what to do to the fade, as buffing the HP/Armour too high will mean it because a kill-machine, but currently it just feels too much like a glass cannon. A glass cannon that is getting shot at.
Your onos argument is more comparing onos/marine and exo/skulk, and so not relevant to discussing fades. (Onos/marine and exo/skulk are imo about even).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i already explained that in my post, you must have skipped that part. sorry, i cba repeating myself.
also, anything i said makes far more sense than your 'fade should theoretically be 5 times stronger than a marine, because it costs 5 times more' crap. use your noggin... what do you think would happen if the alien team gets 5 x fades? does that then mean the marine team needs 5 x more players in order to stand a chance?
it comes down to map control. when aliens die, they only lose map control if the marines are able to establish a phase gate, power, armory etc. when marines die, they lose their map control (PG) and have to start from square one.
edit: the only benefit of lerk over fade is the ranged attack, which is a significant benefit - but aside from ranged the lerk (275 ehp with carapace) is far weaker than fade (450 ehp) and therefore a load of tosh in enclosed areas. lerk is almost dead after 1 shotgun hit, fade requires 2.5 shotgun hits. that is significant. let's not forget that skulk does pretty well against an exo, so your 50 res doesn't necessarily guarantee a kill versus 20 res shotgun.
I'm not going to argue the map control aspect, but I always thought the benefit of lerk over Fade had a lot more to do with their AoE gas that goes straight to HP rather than any ranged attack they might have. Not saying the ranged attack isn't great, but Spores is <i>far</i> better and I would take a Lerk and a few skulks or Gorges over a few Fades any day. Two lerks are only 10 P.Res more than one Fade, while still having the same ability to 'hit and run', if not a better ability to hit and run over-all.
Just my two cents, really. The only 'benefit' Fade gets is that it's a lot faster and has a few more HP. The downside is it's 100% single-target damage. It's <i>good</i> single-target, don't get me wrong, but Lerk gas is better IMO. Both together is probably the best, but even together it's kind of weak-sauce in base assault without Gorges, and with Gorges you don't really need the Fades for assault.
If the Marines team is splitting up into small groups, a fade might be better equipped to defend several positions. So a fade roams the map 'helping' by killing small roaming groups of Marines while the Gorges and Lerks do the heavy lifting in assaulting a Marines base for a third hive. They all have roles, it's just that a skulk or two would probably do about as well as a Fade in the same niche while ultimately allowing a few of those skulks to go Onos with P.Res and actually help in the base assault versus camping random corridors and sling-shotting through empty portions of the map.
Fade is better than skulk, but only marginally. They get an ok HP/AR increase, they get a tiny damage increase, and an <i>easier</i> movement mechanic. It's been said before, but Fades are just uberskulks that are actually slightly <i>worse</i> at killing structures. Nothing more, nothing less. For 50 P.Res, I would have hoped for something a bit more useful. Especially since a Lerk is actually more useful versus Exo's as well with the Spike attack.
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, getting 2-shot occurs pretty frequently with people who don't suck with shotguns and fades without cara.
And also, onos requires 3 hits to kill a marine with a3, costs 75 res, and is therefore comparable to a dual exosuit, not a marine.
If you want res/res comparisons, compare 2 marines with shotguns and jetpacks (30 res each, 60 total) a2w2 against a fade and a gorge/skulk (60/50 total). Given everyone is good, who would you bet on? I would bet on the marines with the shotguns, no second thoughts about it, every time. Two shotgunning jetpackers absolutely TROLL a fade into submission, no matter the fade's upgrades.
Also, when marines die they don't lose anything except jetpacks at 10 res, unless the aliens can then also defend the dropped weapons, because their teammates can pick up the weapons or they can run back and pick them up themselves.
Killed a marine with a GL or shotty? You've accomplished nothing unless the shotty is defended and disappears.
<!--quoteo(post=2030185:date=Nov 20 2012, 09:55 AM:name=kast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kast @ Nov 20 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gotta make fades <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>worth</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 50 res to really balance aliens now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, fade has needed a <u><b>SLIGHT</b></u> health buff for a long time. I'm just kind of concerned it will be completely overdone and back to fade land in 231 or whenever the change is made... lol. But I guess we will see.
Fade ≠Onos
Fades should only be good at fighting small groups of marines. If a fade could go in solo on a large group of marines that would be overpowered. Fade is like the single mini EXO, while it has advantages it has weaknesses as well. The fade is not a basebuster, it was never designed to be. If a person is dying to 8 marines when they go in alone as a fade, then they have just learned that fades are not invincible. Yet a fade can easily take on a group of a few marines, and with hit and run can have them dead in short order.
And also, onos requires 3 hits to kill a marine with a3, costs 75 res, and is therefore comparable to a dual exosuit, not a marine.
If you want res/res comparisons, compare 2 marines with shotguns and jetpacks (30 res each, 60 total) a2w2 against a fade and a gorge/skulk (60/50 total). Given everyone is good, who would you bet on? I would bet on the marines with the shotguns, no second thoughts about it, every time. Two shotgunning jetpackers absolutely TROLL a fade into submission, no matter the fade's upgrades.
Also, when marines die they don't lose anything except jetpacks at 10 res, unless the aliens can then also defend the dropped weapons, because their teammates can pick up the weapons or they can run back and pick them up themselves.
Killed a marine with a GL or shotty? You've accomplished nothing unless the shotty is defended and disappears.
Agreed, fade has needed a <u><b>SLIGHT</b></u> health buff for a long time. I'm just kind of concerned it will be completely overdone and back to fade land in 231 or whenever the change is made... lol. But I guess we will see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so you did your calculations where marines have upgrades (because 0w shotgun does 170 which does <b><u>not</b></u> 2-shot a fade), but didn't add carapace to the equation.
fade only gets 2-shot by a marine if you <b>(a)</b> go without carapace versus weapon upgrade marines <u>AND</u> <b>(b)</b> let them get a PERFECT shotgun hit on you and refuse to fall back.
ergo if you get 2-shot or even 3-shot by a marine then you were irrefutably outplayed.
edit: weapons disappear very quickly since 230... since then i've never been able to reclaim my own dropped weapon, even if i buy a jetpack and make a beeline to where i died. i don't know the exact timings, but i'm afraid that makes another one of your arguments kind of redundant.
- no tres or pres onos.
- alien tres income dropped a bit.
- a full health, mature hive produces an onos egg for free every 15 minutes. (if it gets injured, the timer stops until it's back to full health).
- no tres or pres onos.
- alien tres income dropped a bit.
- a full health, mature hive produces an onos egg for free every 15 minutes. (if it gets injured, the timer stops until it's back to full health).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was your quirky idea to see marine turtle games go from hours in length to days?
the 'getting 2-shot' story is a load of crap, marines get 2-shot by an onos with absolutely no chance to escape or fight back without backup.
"oooh but the marines only lose 20-30 pres, the fade loses 50!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... Did you really compare a top tier tech unit against a base Marine as being an argument <i>against</i> the Fade being vulnerable? Really?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sure, but when the marines die they also lose their phase gate and therefore lose control of a tech point plus 1-2 RT's. so marines -2 RT's and aliens +2 RT's - that's a pretty big win for aliens. when aliens die they have a huge mobility advantage which enables them to reinforce and actually attempt to defend distant locations far easier than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if trolling.
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<!--quoteo(post=2031236:date=Nov 21 2012, 12:15 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 21 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so you did your calculations where marines have upgrades (because 0w shotgun does 170 which does <b><u>not</b></u> 2-shot a fade), but didn't add carapace to the equation.
fade only gets 2-shot by a marine if you <b>(a)</b> go without carapace versus weapon upgrade marines <u>AND</u> <b>(b)</b> let them get a PERFECT shotgun hit on you and refuse to fall back.
ergo if you get 2-shot or even 3-shot by a marine then you were irrefutably outplayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... And your Weapons 3 doesn't personally cost you 50 PRes/TRes if you die. It stays with you when you come back and you don't have to choose between it and the mutually exclusive upgrade, Bananas 2. And if both the Fade and Marine are equal, high-level skill players, the Marine with a Shotgun will win the encounter.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: weapons disappear very quickly since 230... since then i've never been able to reclaim my own dropped weapon, even if i buy a jetpack and make a beeline to where i died. i don't know the exact timings, but i'm afraid that makes another one of your arguments kind of redundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Less unsure if trolling.
I would like for 5 Onos gangrape to be a little less frequent or stay out of some games altogether. They're too strong to be some inevitable upgrade, like the marines are on a timer and if they don't have extreme map control they lose once everyone goes Onos.
It is also just really easy to play alien as far as strategy goes (the FPS skills do take some practice). You can be sweating over your keyboard white knuckled on the marine team and lose. You can be talking on the phone, folding laundry, have little knowledge of the game and win consistently as aliens. The alien commander is the easiest most mindless thing ever.
Onos was never anything more than victory flair in v3.0. The HMG was such a broken counter to it that Onos was never viable except in a "lol, they have an Onos...time to drop an HMG from my AA I had 5 minutes ago".
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As for Fade being useless... It's not completely worthless. It's just worthless unless you happen to, say, be me and really, <i>really</i> know how to maximize it. Basically means that you need to evaluate every single encounter on whether or not you can get away with attacking. The high mobility permits this but only on maps that aren't full of massive rooms...like Refinery. Which is kind of surprising, given that if Aliens can hold Lava Falls and keep Pipeline away from the Marines, it's incredibly hard to win as a Marine on that map. A map like Docking? I ###### love to go Fade on that map because it's full of turns, walls, and ceilings with cover.
But for the general pub player? Fade is 100% worthless. Too expensive for them to justify when an Onos costs only 50% more and is simply that much more idiot-proof. I think a Shadow Step-Swipe burst damage combo (like Charge) would go a long way towards making it more attractive to new players in its current state. Or something boring like a health/armor modification but seriously, I want some depth to it. :/
Alien midgame tech is weak, marine midgame tech is fine. But marines have an Achilles heel that is throwing balance stats to ###### (tech point power nodes).
That's my guesstimate right now. Marines are unable to both push their midgame tech advantage and keep the alien slot machine from paying off consistently (throw a couple skulks in the marine start slot, every once in a while you hit jackpot)
fade only gets 2-shot by a marine if you <b>(a)</b> go without carapace versus weapon upgrade marines <u>AND</u> <b>(b)</b> let them get a PERFECT shotgun hit on you and refuse to fall back.
ergo if you get 2-shot or even 3-shot by a marine then you were irrefutably outplayed.
edit: weapons disappear very quickly since 230... since then i've never been able to reclaim my own dropped weapon, even if i buy a jetpack and make a beeline to where i died. i don't know the exact timings, but i'm afraid that makes another one of your arguments kind of redundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The complaint is more, fades ARE getting soloed by shotty marines, and not exceptionally rarely, because they take longer to kill an armor 1 marine (for example) than an armor 1 marine takes to unload more than enough of a shotgun clip, and that it's very easy to instantly die as soon as you show your face if marines are a bit lucky.
Fades having a big hitbox that is mostly face high makes them easier to hit than skulks in a chaos situation.
For the record, at weapons 2 (which is a good midgame upgrade stat) against a carapasc fade, 26 shotgun pellets need to hit. One clip of the shotgun fires 80. You need less than a third of your pellets to hit from a single shotgun clip to kill a fade.
A marine fighting a fade with a shotgun is really not on a tight budget. The fade needs to sink the same number of swipes to kill the marine as the marine needs to sink to kill the fade generally speaking, both are using close range weapons, and the marine can whittle off health with near misses in the mean time. Fade has almost every disadvantage, and that's why they just don't feel that scary when you've got a shot gun.
Right now, to me, the smaller your hitbox is the better you're doing against shotguns until the onos comes out. Gorges and fades HATE shotguns.