He might be trolling, but some of these changes are questionable at best. So yeah, he captures what some of us feel about the whole balancing process in a nutshell.
Simply tweaking something seems to be impossible, its usually a radical change in one direction or the other. Furthermore, it seems to be very difficult to take the obvious consequences into account that are not related to the original problem. Its acceptable in a beta, but not in the current state of the game.
Although I started this thread with a inflammatory title I actually think the removal of Tres Onos drop is a great thing. Hopefully the fade will get a bit of a buff and be able to fill the same role as in NS1.
I'm for the extinction of the Tres Onos and I wouldn't mind if we saw the extinction of the Tres fade either. As long as strong lifeforms can be dropped the commander, its rarely going to be worth it to drop support buildings, which I think is ruining the fun of being alien commander.
However at the same time, its now undeniably much harder to win as aliens, in both pubs and competitive play. I think in competitive play things will rebound, but I'm not so sure about pubs. The Onos drop was by far the alien commanders strongest weapon, and Pub players really depend upon onos drop to keep up the aliens average team strength.
Previously a typical well commanded game as alien comm would be like, build whatever upgrade and a few rts, get a snack, make the 2nd hive and maybe a building or two, get leap and another upgrade, go to the bathroom, then drop onos until my team wins.
Now its very hard to help your team be strong. The problem with pubs is that people are unlikely to save to 75 Pres and ALSO really likely to lose their onos even once they manage to save up 75. When you have 0 onos on your team and the mariens are at 3-3 or even worse have exos, its just really hard to take any positions. I think the alien win rate is about to plummet in both pub and competitive play. Whatever happens though, I hope that we never again see the 2 hive Tres Onos.
and before you flame me, OF COURSE THIS IS SPECULATION and MY OPINION
Alien upgrades that reduce the pres of some of the more expensive lifeforms would go a long way then, but then again you'd have people saving up and waiting for the com to finish those upgrades first so nevermind.
Would be nice though, a research upgrade for lerks on hive 1 that reduces their cost to 20 pres instead of 30. Lerk ruuuusshhh. :)
Skipped the rest of the thread to post this, sorry if it's already been mentioned:
What if you enable 2-hive TRES onos, but make it cost 150 Tres (or similar)? Then make a 3-hive Tres onos cost 75. Should sort out the timing of an early onos drop, but also allow mid-game boosts if the aliens REALLY save for it.
<!--quoteo(post=2030074:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:46 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ Nov 20 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skipped the rest of the thread to post this, sorry if it's already been mentioned:
What if you enable 2-hive TRES onos, but make it cost 150 Tres (or similar)? Then make a 3-hive Tres onos cost 75. Should sort out the timing of an early onos drop, but also allow mid-game boosts if the aliens REALLY save for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
don't you think 3 fades would be better than 1 onos?
<!--quoteo(post=2030079:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:50 PM:name=tk-421)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tk-421 @ Nov 20 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Be sure to change the dates to Nov 20...
Aliens 55.22% (127) to Marines 44.78% (103).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i did that... are you sure you unchecked 228 and 229.
<!--quoteo(post=2030096:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:06 PM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 20 2012, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would anyone think that? An onos can soak twice the damage and is better at killing structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
onos might be able to soak twice the damage, but they're such an easy target that they receive 10 times more bullets than a fade.
better at killing structures... pft situational. you're bashing a random power node? fair enough... but if you're in a risky location where the marines could potentially trap you or beacon, then fade is better suited because you can ghost past the marines or exit through a vent etc.
i think some ppl have been spoiled by the onos, to the point where the added requirement of common sense with any other alien lifeform is too much hassle.
They could just remove the TRES Onos and buff/add new features to the Alien team to make up for it. Fighting against early Tres onos wasn't fun at all in both pubs and competitive games
Fades are crap against structures, their swipe receives a damage nerf. Onos are the structure busters (besides bile), and their massive hp lets them tank the hits of anything except a3 concentrated fire long enough to take out whatever they are hitting. Onos are the only thing that can rush power nodes (besides bile).
The only thing I'd be afraid of with keeping Tres onii in the game is pigeonholing the commander into having to save for them, keeping him from doing anything else.
<!--quoteo(post=2030083:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:53 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 06:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i did that... are you sure you unchecked 228 and 229.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at the number of games that the win percentage is based off of. Its like <40. Not exactly a fair sample size especially since NS2 stats includes more competitive servers then the general server population.
<!--quoteo(post=2030117:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:25 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ Nov 20 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are crap against structures, their swipe receives a damage nerf. Onos are the structure busters (besides bile), and their massive hp lets them tank the hits of anything except a3 concentrated fire long enough to take out whatever they are hitting. Onos are the only thing that can rush power nodes (besides bile).
The only thing I'd be afraid of with keeping Tres onii in the game is pigeonholing the commander into having to save for them, keeping him from doing anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if the marine team can't stop an onos from destroying their power node - the game is either already lost or they epic failed. typically the best you can hope for is to keep the attention of 1-2 marines back at base to repair and 'scare you away' (because they can always call more marines back if you persist, they do not have to over commit).
a fade hitting power node can also draw the attention of 1-2 marines permanently.
therefore, why would anyone spend 150 tres on an onos when you could get a 50 tres fade doing exactly the same, or 150 tres for 3 fades simultaneously doing the same in 3 different locations?
<!--quoteo(post=2030118:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:27 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 20 2012, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at the number of games that the win percentage is based off of. Its like <40. Not exactly a fair sample size especially since NS2 stats includes more competitive servers then the general server population.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah my post was kinda a joke aimed at the OP who's talking about major balance problems since 230. (my point being that it's way too early to accurately judge overall balance)
<!--quoteo(post=2030126:date=Nov 20 2012, 07:37 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 07:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah my post was kinda a joke aimed at the OP who's talking about major balance problems since 230. (my point being that it's way too early to accurately judge overall balance)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am the OP, and I didn't say the game had become imbalanced, I said it had a major impact on balance (where before in 229 and even to some degree in 228 with good alien comms was clearly in aliens favor).
Anybody claiming that the removal of Tres Onos won't have a major impact on win rates just has not been playing the game, or has not been understanding how a large number of their games are won. Even if we dont even consider games where there is no fast onos drop (for example I never use the fast onos drop in pubs), alien comms routinely rely on dropping a few or many onos eggs throughout the late game to replace the ones that pub players in particular lose rapidly. If the alien team ever has 0 onos on the field once 3-3 is out, they are usually losing ground.
An entire team of fades wouldn't be able to bust a group of turtling marines. Moving onos drop to three hives was sensible but come on, you're kidding yourself if you think lategame Fade is even remotely comparable to an onos.
I fail to see how lowering shadowstep cost was supposed to change a ###### thing when it's fade DAMAGE and HEALTH that are incomparably weak.
<!--quoteo(post=2030134:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:48 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 20 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am the OP, and I didn't say the game had become imbalanced, I said it had a major impact on balance (where before in 229 and even to some degree in 228 with good alien comms was clearly in aliens favor).
Anybody claiming that the removal of Tres Onos won't have a major impact on win rates just has not been playing the game, or has not been understanding how a large number of their games are won. Even if we dont even consider games where there is no fast onos drop (for example I never use the fast onos drop in pubs), alien comms routinely rely on dropping a few or many onos eggs throughout the late game to replace the ones that pub players in particular lose rapidly. If the alien team ever has 0 onos on the field once 3-3 is out, they are usually losing ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's one way to look at it...
the other way to look at it is that the tres onos was effectively the same as having a biased serving game in tennis. if one player gets to serve 100% of the time, there's simply no telling which player is stronger because the serving player has an inherent advantage.
without tres onos we can actually see the game more clearly and it will be easier to analyse balance.
It's easier to see alien midgame absolutely blows without the onos egg drop, but that won't be properly reflected in the win stats because marines outright lose a lot of games due to poor commanders and poor coordination.
<!--quoteo(post=2030045:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:09 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 20 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although I started this thread with a inflammatory title I actually think the removal of Tres Onos drop is a great thing. Hopefully the fade will get a bit of a buff and be able to fill the same role as in NS1.
I'm for the extinction of the Tres Onos and I wouldn't mind if we saw the extinction of the Tres fade either. As long as strong lifeforms can be dropped the commander, its rarely going to be worth it to drop support buildings, which I think is ruining the fun of being alien commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prevent Marine Commanders then from dropping Dual Exos without three CCs. Would seem fair to me.
Personally, I rarely ever dropped lifeforms as Khammander. I often went rather for support buildings, the Onos egg was just a cash sink when res was piling up again from map control.
<!--quoteo(post=2030125:date=Nov 20 2012, 10:35 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if the marine team can't stop an onos from destroying their power node - the game is either already lost or they epic failed. typically the best you can hope for is to keep the attention of 1-2 marines back at base to repair and 'scare you away' (because they can always call more marines back if you persist, they do not have to over commit).
a fade hitting power node can also draw the attention of 1-2 marines permanently.
therefore, why would anyone spend 150 tres on an onos when you could get a 50 tres fade doing exactly the same, or 150 tres for 3 fades simultaneously doing the same in 3 different locations?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two onos can take down a power node in seconds, before the marine team can (usually) bring them down, and before a distress beacon can be completed. Three onos makes it happen even faster. This is a crucial thing that has to happen to end many games. 3-4 fades are not capable of doing this because they die too quickly. I don't see how you can argue that Onii are not necessary, since the only other thing that can accomplish this is a team of good gorges + a distraction.
<!--quoteo(post=2029738:date=Nov 19 2012, 10:24 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 19 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Come now. If, after surviving an early Onos drop, the marines are at the very least balanced when facing off against 2 hive aliens, what do you think is going to happen when arguably the aliens biggest "tech upgrade" and main use for late game resources is removed almost entirely. I understand that this is a small step towards a bigger goal of making the Onos a players lifeform choice, rather than a comms only resource sink, but to think that this patch will be fair in the late game is naive.
I don't know if UWE are still operating in beta mode, but you simply cannot make experimental changes like this. The massive increase to crag and shade power was a similar situation. Whether or not they work out or are balanced it irrelevant. Its reckless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but thank god UWE realized that surivival of this game is not in balance between 2 races but whatever is this game fun in public games, because that's what determites is this game going to be good or bad.
aliens are still VERY good in public games, i still see aliens win the most games, but now that onos egg drop is FIXED, and that's what it is, fixed, because it was absurd abusive tactic that has no place in this game, even when most games is won by aliens, atleast this game is FUN now, and that's most important thing.
gotta make fades <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>worth</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 50 res to really balance aliens now
<!--quoteo(post=2030117:date=Nov 20 2012, 10:25 AM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ Nov 20 2012, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are crap against structures, their swipe receives a damage nerf. Onos are the structure busters (besides bile), and their massive hp lets them tank the hits of anything except a3 concentrated fire long enough to take out whatever they are hitting. Onos are the only thing that can rush power nodes (besides bile).
The only thing I'd be afraid of with keeping Tres onii in the game is pigeonholing the commander into having to save for them, keeping him from doing anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i honestly dont care that fades take forever to kill structures. fades move around the map far easier and are SUPPOSED to be killing marines. unfortunately fades are so weak that its almost pointless to be the main mid level attacker , youre better off lerking or saving for onos unless youre somewhat decent with fade. fades in ns1 took forever to kill rt's too
Comments
removed phase gates
onos requirement: 4 hives
onos removed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2029970:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:35 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 20 2012, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->build 231 -
add power nodes to floor and ceiling for balance<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2029977:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:42 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 20 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->build 233 -
due to build 232 power node change making power nodes unbalanced, aliens can now build power nodes too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2029965:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:33 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 20 2012, 03:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->build 231 -
removed phase gates
onos requirement: 4 hives<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't you have anything better to do than jump from thread to thread and troll with every post? The jokes aren't even that funny...
Simply tweaking something seems to be impossible, its usually a radical change in one direction or the other. Furthermore, it seems to be very difficult to take the obvious consequences into account that are not related to the original problem. Its acceptable in a beta, but not in the current state of the game.
I'm for the extinction of the Tres Onos and I wouldn't mind if we saw the extinction of the Tres fade either. As long as strong lifeforms can be dropped the commander, its rarely going to be worth it to drop support buildings, which I think is ruining the fun of being alien commander.
However at the same time, its now undeniably much harder to win as aliens, in both pubs and competitive play. I think in competitive play things will rebound, but I'm not so sure about pubs. The Onos drop was by far the alien commanders strongest weapon, and Pub players really depend upon onos drop to keep up the aliens average team strength.
Previously a typical well commanded game as alien comm would be like, build whatever upgrade and a few rts, get a snack, make the 2nd hive and maybe a building or two, get leap and another upgrade, go to the bathroom, then drop onos until my team wins.
Now its very hard to help your team be strong. The problem with pubs is that people are unlikely to save to 75 Pres and ALSO really likely to lose their onos even once they manage to save up 75. When you have 0 onos on your team and the mariens are at 3-3 or even worse have exos, its just really hard to take any positions. I think the alien win rate is about to plummet in both pub and competitive play. Whatever happens though, I hope that we never again see the 2 hive Tres Onos.
and before you flame me, OF COURSE THIS IS SPECULATION and MY OPINION
Would be nice though, a research upgrade for lerks on hive 1 that reduces their cost to 20 pres instead of 30. Lerk ruuuusshhh. :)
Carry on.
Oh wait, 50% of pub games khamm never even dropped a 2nd hive Onos, he just played "normally"...
Waiting for that Major impact...
75% alien wins :D
bump skulk up to 5 hive requirement!
What if you enable 2-hive TRES onos, but make it cost 150 Tres (or similar)? Then make a 3-hive Tres onos cost 75. Should sort out the timing of an early onos drop, but also allow mid-game boosts if the aliens REALLY save for it.
75% alien wins :D
bump skulk up to 5 hive requirement!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Be sure to change the dates to Nov 20...
Aliens 55.22% (127) to Marines 44.78% (103).
What if you enable 2-hive TRES onos, but make it cost 150 Tres (or similar)? Then make a 3-hive Tres onos cost 75. Should sort out the timing of an early onos drop, but also allow mid-game boosts if the aliens REALLY save for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
don't you think 3 fades would be better than 1 onos?
Aliens 55.22% (127) to Marines 44.78% (103).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i did that... are you sure you unchecked 228 and 229.
Why would anyone think that? An onos can soak twice the damage and is better at killing structures.
onos might be able to soak twice the damage, but they're such an easy target that they receive 10 times more bullets than a fade.
better at killing structures... pft situational. you're bashing a random power node? fair enough... but if you're in a risky location where the marines could potentially trap you or beacon, then fade is better suited because you can ghost past the marines or exit through a vent etc.
i think some ppl have been spoiled by the onos, to the point where the added requirement of common sense with any other alien lifeform is too much hassle.
The only thing I'd be afraid of with keeping Tres onii in the game is pigeonholing the commander into having to save for them, keeping him from doing anything else.
Look at the number of games that the win percentage is based off of. Its like <40. Not exactly a fair sample size especially since NS2 stats includes more competitive servers then the general server population.
The only thing I'd be afraid of with keeping Tres onii in the game is pigeonholing the commander into having to save for them, keeping him from doing anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if the marine team can't stop an onos from destroying their power node - the game is either already lost or they epic failed. typically the best you can hope for is to keep the attention of 1-2 marines back at base to repair and 'scare you away' (because they can always call more marines back if you persist, they do not have to over commit).
a fade hitting power node can also draw the attention of 1-2 marines permanently.
therefore, why would anyone spend 150 tres on an onos when you could get a 50 tres fade doing exactly the same, or 150 tres for 3 fades simultaneously doing the same in 3 different locations?
yeah my post was kinda a joke aimed at the OP who's talking about major balance problems since 230. (my point being that it's way too early to accurately judge overall balance)
I am the OP, and I didn't say the game had become imbalanced, I said it had a major impact on balance (where before in 229 and even to some degree in 228 with good alien comms was clearly in aliens favor).
Anybody claiming that the removal of Tres Onos won't have a major impact on win rates just has not been playing the game, or has not been understanding how a large number of their games are won. Even if we dont even consider games where there is no fast onos drop (for example I never use the fast onos drop in pubs), alien comms routinely rely on dropping a few or many onos eggs throughout the late game to replace the ones that pub players in particular lose rapidly. If the alien team ever has 0 onos on the field once 3-3 is out, they are usually losing ground.
I fail to see how lowering shadowstep cost was supposed to change a ###### thing when it's fade DAMAGE and HEALTH that are incomparably weak.
Anybody claiming that the removal of Tres Onos won't have a major impact on win rates just has not been playing the game, or has not been understanding how a large number of their games are won. Even if we dont even consider games where there is no fast onos drop (for example I never use the fast onos drop in pubs), alien comms routinely rely on dropping a few or many onos eggs throughout the late game to replace the ones that pub players in particular lose rapidly. If the alien team ever has 0 onos on the field once 3-3 is out, they are usually losing ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's one way to look at it...
the other way to look at it is that the tres onos was effectively the same as having a biased serving game in tennis. if one player gets to serve 100% of the time, there's simply no telling which player is stronger because the serving player has an inherent advantage.
without tres onos we can actually see the game more clearly and it will be easier to analyse balance.
I'm for the extinction of the Tres Onos and I wouldn't mind if we saw the extinction of the Tres fade either. As long as strong lifeforms can be dropped the commander, its rarely going to be worth it to drop support buildings, which I think is ruining the fun of being alien commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prevent Marine Commanders then from dropping Dual Exos without three CCs. Would seem fair to me.
Personally, I rarely ever dropped lifeforms as Khammander. I often went rather for support buildings, the Onos egg was just a cash sink when res was piling up again from map control.
a fade hitting power node can also draw the attention of 1-2 marines permanently.
therefore, why would anyone spend 150 tres on an onos when you could get a 50 tres fade doing exactly the same, or 150 tres for 3 fades simultaneously doing the same in 3 different locations?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two onos can take down a power node in seconds, before the marine team can (usually) bring them down, and before a distress beacon can be completed. Three onos makes it happen even faster. This is a crucial thing that has to happen to end many games. 3-4 fades are not capable of doing this because they die too quickly. I don't see how you can argue that Onii are not necessary, since the only other thing that can accomplish this is a team of good gorges + a distraction.
I don't know if UWE are still operating in beta mode, but you simply cannot make experimental changes like this. The massive increase to crag and shade power was a similar situation. Whether or not they work out or are balanced it irrelevant. Its reckless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but thank god UWE realized that surivival of this game is not in balance between 2 races but whatever is this game fun in public games, because that's what determites is this game going to be good or bad.
aliens are still VERY good in public games, i still see aliens win the most games, but now that onos egg drop is FIXED, and that's what it is, fixed, because it was absurd abusive tactic that has no place in this game, even when most games is won by aliens, atleast this game is FUN now, and that's most important thing.
The only thing I'd be afraid of with keeping Tres onii in the game is pigeonholing the commander into having to save for them, keeping him from doing anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i honestly dont care that fades take forever to kill structures. fades move around the map far easier and are SUPPOSED to be killing marines. unfortunately fades are so weak that its almost pointless to be the main mid level attacker , youre better off lerking or saving for onos unless youre somewhat decent with fade. fades in ns1 took forever to kill rt's too
What a concept ;)