Thinking about it now, I think scanner sweep is very badly underused in pub games. Pub marines have real problems with awareness and walking into ambushes, and scanning the room ahead of them will fix that whether the aliens have cloaking or not. The pub skulks probably won't even realize their ambush spot is revealed, meaning a free kill - certainly seems worth the cost of 3 medpacks to me. To be honest I very rarely see camouflage used in 229, and as a non-cloaking skulk I can sit above any doorway I want and be basically guaranteed that the marines walking through it are going to be oblivious and give me a free kill, so I don't consider Shade first to be particularly useful.
<!--quoteo(post=2028887:date=Nov 19 2012, 06:40 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 19 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thinking about it now, I think scanner sweep is very badly underused in pub games. Pub marines have real problems with awareness and walking into ambushes, and scanning the room ahead of them will fix that whether the aliens have cloaking or not. The pub skulks probably won't even realize their ambush spot is revealed, meaning a free kill - certainly seems worth the cost of 3 medpacks to me. To be honest I very rarely see camouflage used in 229, and as a non-cloaking skulk I can sit above any doorway I want and be basically guaranteed that the marines walking through it are going to be oblivious and give me a free kill, so I don't consider Shade first to be particularly useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it is. You are not bound to one position. You can follow marines. Wait until they start building. You can sit directly in the middle of a passage and just start biting when he connects to you. As I said already 2 times in this thread. People should try it. It is really fun.
Most people are just arguing out of their knowledge from camo in 228. It plays really different now.
<!--quoteo(post=2028896:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:46 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Nov 19 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it is. You are not bound to one position. You can follow marines. Wait until they start building. You can sit directly in the middle of a passage and just start biting when he connects to you. As I said already 2 times in this thread. People should try it. It is really fun.
Most people are just arguing out of their knowledge from camo in 228. It plays really different now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know how Camo works now, it was just plain bad before. I'm just saying that ambushing pub marines is really really easy even without Camo. Just make intelligent use of crawling and they let their guard down every time. I think the other chambers still provide more value.
People are saying things like, oh its the same as hiding above a door! Its really not.
For example, say your fighting 2 marines and you kill one and then you know the other is too far. No problem, hop behind a box that would normally have no escape go invisible, now you can walk up and kill the other marine who is running over to kill a trapped and injured skulk. *protip* don't walk in the most predictable path.
Keep camo the way it currently is, punish the solo marines. I've only been in a handful of games where camo was the first upgrade, with some the marines completely failed to adapt and got destroyed i went like 30 and 5 as a skulk and it was all killing solo marines, on the other hand there's some games where the marines completely destroyed us, obs everywhere and constant pinging.
Just finished a couple of games where aliens were going camo all the time.
Verdict > marines got roflstomped every single game. Both teams were sensibly the same skill level and commander knew how to scan.
The stay together works well on paper but you tend to forget that aliens can do the same ( and they were ) and scan is very expensive ( 3 is way too high ). In addition without any "electrify" or such thing alien can navigate through the map without any fear and harass extractors ( since marines all group up that leaves a lot of routes for rt harassment ).
The main issue I think is how fast you can cloack and the new very efficient way of sticking to thing that NS2 introduced. In NS1 I dont remember being able to move that fast and easily when cloacked. This is just insane
My suggestion would be to let the camo give you 100% invisibility if you are not moving, 228 invis if you are moving slowly (and make that movement slightly slower) and non at all once you move fast, attack or jump etc.
Could be a good compromise and also the OBs is the counter against camo, as is scans.
<!--quoteo(post=2029077:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:07 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Nov 19 2012, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion would be to let the camo give you 100% invisibility if you are not moving, 228 invis if you are moving slowly (and make that movement slightly slower) and non at all once you move fast, attack or jump etc.
Could be a good compromise and also the OBs is the counter against camo, as is scans.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ this. That's the way it was always supposed to work, I thought. Only 100% when not moving.
<!--quoteo(post=2028705:date=Nov 19 2012, 05:22 AM:name=arnyboy87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arnyboy87 @ Nov 19 2012, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol this is just false It may be a 90% win against a single marine (I could accept that maybe) but not a 90% chance to win the game.
Real question,,, do you play the game? I want to know how many hours you have played because and I don't mean this to be cheeky but either you type alot and don't play,,, or you just troll<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unreal answer: Unfortunately I play the game too much. With this patch, I'm thinking I should probably take a break though... This is honestly the worst I've personally seen the game overall in the last 2+ months. Even the notorious 223g when marines used to bounce like ping pong balls when aliens hit them was preferable to this.
<!--quoteo(post=2028875:date=Nov 19 2012, 09:32 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 19 2012, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing with Camo is that it's extremely pub friendly. Pretty much everyone is guaranteed to get one bite in, and if you're facing marines who struggle with aiming then that free bite also pretty much guarantees the kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what kind of aiming god you must be, but in a 1v1 situation, you simply cannot react fast enough. A camo skulk will end up behind you in your feet, no matter what. There's no way to avoid that without a scan. Zero chance to avoid. When that happens, he is guaranteed to get 2 bites in. With lag comp, even if you have <50 ping, the bites come so fast that he's guaranteed at least 1 bite + 1 glancing bite. The only thing you can then do is sprint-jump in a random direction and 180-shoot a skulk 11 times (13 with cara) before he lands a third, even glancing bite. Good luck with that.
By the way, if you lose, PASSIVE regen will have him up to full health for the next skirmish.
Have fun playing that. I didn't.
The ONLY counter to camo is to get marines into 1 or 2 groups and keep scanning and rescanning and rescanning and rescanning as those one or two groups move around the map, or have groups of players outnumbering the camo skulks watching each other's feet like hawks 100% of the time. First of all, good luck having that kind of organization in a pub game. Second, res is extremely short on marine side and you NEED shotguns/mines/welders/weapon&armor levels/jetpacks/grenade launchers to keep up with the game progression and be able to counter lerks, fades, and oni effectively. Those constant scans just demolish that economy and deliver an easy alien win with regen lerk & cara fade/onos spam.
Invisible skulks aside, am I the only one bothered by not seeing a bloody elephant right in front of my nose? What kind of utter rubbish is that?
And why would people want to punish solo marines any further? Doesn't low health, welding, building, reloading, night vision, wall walking, poor lighting and map design make them vulnerable enough? Do you want them to just drop dead if they leave base without holding hands? All the while aliens are free to ###### around solo without much to worry about?
It is hard enough to pressure alien rts as is. And isn't speed for aliens, range for marines a fundamental asymmetry of the game that is pretty much broken by camouflage? Don't get me wrong I love the idea and want it to work because stalking aliens is a huge part of the game. But camo in its current state is a big no, even though being OP was fun for a few games.
How about giving marines a motion sensor similar to the old alien versus predator game? (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPs8dcnEJ-E&feature=player_detailpage#t=50s" target="_blank">linky</a>) It was a two dimensional indicator showing movement in a 180 degree arc in front of you in a limited range. Unlike the scan however this doesn't show exact locations, not even vertical position. But it does alert to alien presence and gives a vague idea of the general direction. And possibly make it detect skulks only if they aren't using stalk, camo or otherwise. In AVP the sensor picked up everything from aliens to doors, grenades, team mates, giving a lot of false alarms which made things even more tense.
In Team Fortress 2, the Spy's cloak is balanced out with a certain time that it takes to uncloak. While cloaked or uncloaking, you can't attack. Maybe if Skulks maintain their speed loss during this moment, this would be the perfect time for marines to get their own ambush in; so that a camoflauge attack only works when the marine genuinely wasn't expecting it at all and doesn't react in time.
<!--quoteo(post=2028652:date=Nov 19 2012, 06:35 AM:name=YoungTrotsky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YoungTrotsky @ Nov 19 2012, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about if camo was 100% normally but went down to build 228 level when a marine had his flashlight on you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This suggestion is incredibly win.
Drop shade hive first, get camo fairly quick (i'd say before 3 or 4 minutes), enjoy your map control. Docking and Veil are the best maps for it, I find.
What I think camo should be changed to... •100% cloaked while on infestation •75% cloaked moving off infestation •90% cloaked standing still off infestation
obviously the numbers would probably be different, it's hard to guess without seeing it visually, but you get my point.
edit: "How about if camo was 100% normally but went down to build 228 level when a marine had his flashlight on you?" ~YoungTrotsky I think I might prefer this idea, actually.
I think the risk with ANY visibility is that people will fiddle with graphics settings to always get what they want. If simply looking at an alien sitting still in camoflauge will show -any- part of him, then you have to assume he is fully visible, and that is going to become extremely frustrating to players that feel they're invisible. Crysis had this issue too. I kept wondering how a guy kept sniping me across the map while I was cloaked. Then, after tweaking some video options quite a bit, I found that I could get cloaked players to stick out like a sore, glowing thumb.
TF2 did this correctly too - When invisible, the Spy is INVISIBLE. As in, INVISIBLE. He's just given various other tradeoffs to ensure this isn't overpowered.
I have little doubt that camouflage will be deemed OP pretty soon. It's incredibly strong and might start to break pubs.
<!--quoteo(post=2029077:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Nov 19 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion would be to let the camo give you 100% invisibility if you are not moving, 228 invis if you are moving slowly (and make that movement slightly slower) and non at all once you move fast, attack or jump etc.
Could be a good compromise and also the OBs is the counter against camo, as is scans.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this suggestion a lot. Another idea would be to make it like TF2 where you have to decloak before you can attack which takes a bit of time.
<!--quoteo(post=2029558:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:01 PM:name=turtsmcgurt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (turtsmcgurt @ Nov 19 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drop shade hive first, get camo fairly quick (i'd say before 3 or 4 minutes), enjoy your map control. Docking and Veil are the best maps for it, I find.
What I think camo should be changed to... •100% cloaked while on infestation •75% cloaked moving off infestation •90% cloaked standing still off infestation
obviously the numbers would probably be different, it's hard to guess without seeing it visually, but you get my point.
edit: "How about if camo was 100% normally but went down to build 228 level when a marine had his flashlight on you?" ~YoungTrotsky I think I might prefer this idea, actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can get camo within a minute or two and then see how the marines like that they have no range advantage early game when the battles matter the most.
Camo is incredibly fun (and troll) for aliens at the moment, but incredibly frustrating for marines. I still think silence is better for a skulk, but camo trumps silence on every other lifeform. It doesn't help that camo kicks in so fast and coupled with regen? Yeah marine team better has one hell of a comm or say goodbye to winning that game.
Camo is stupid for both marines and aliens. Get bitten by an invisible-silent alien? what could you have done better ? Nothing really, can't see, can't hear, can't do. Or maybe camp near an obs, ask for scan constantly.
As a skulk, you got scanned while crawling to a marine and got killed. What could you have done better ? Nothing really, you just got hard-countered. You crawl to a marine a bite his ass, do you feel like you're smart and you outplayed the marine? Nope.
I have to concede that camo is good for trolling though.
<!--quoteo(post=2029661:date=Nov 19 2012, 10:13 PM:name=AFireInAsa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AFireInAsa @ Nov 19 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can get camo within a minute or two and then see how the marines like that they have no range advantage early game when the battles matter the most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only that, but they also lose map control, which is also extremely vital early game, because every group of 1-2 marines is doomed. Good luck taking and keeping the 5+ RTs marines need to keep up with aliens in the mid/late-game with invisible skulks camping at each nozzle, WHILE the com scans and rescans everywhere people go, for 3 res a pop (IF he's not absolutely terrible in which case the game just ended). Nevermind that it makes alien RTs and even cysts effectively unkillable (Axing something? Nom nom nom...)
100% camo while still is fine. I think the issue is being able to move with no risk of being spotted (albeit slowly), either being slightly visible when moving (even 99% gives marines a chance) or moving even slower (making it only good for slightly readjusting not getting round the map, and certainly not being able to sneak up on moving marines as easily, and taking much longer to get to building/axing marines).
I'd like to see very slow movement mixed with a fast re-cloak time. Would allow an ambush, retreat and set-up again quickly, forcing marines to use scan without being too overpowered.
If you plan on using Camo, it's most useful against new commanders as a first hive. It's also the most useless at the mid-game against decent commanders. It's a choice, and a risky one. If you're smart, you'll still go shift hive first and if the Marines appear to suck badly grab Camo second. Problem is, now that you need a third hive to end the game as Aliens Camo <i>also</i> isn't good at attacking Marine locations. Especially if they're smart and have an Obs. So it can definitely bite you, but if you think you can grab a third hive with minimal issue it's not such a bad option. This is where early drifters come into play.
Eh, it's a Risk vs. Reward. Camo is either going to be useful, like it is now, or something you never see like it was. At least give people that want to try it out something that doesn't <i>completely</i> suck. It's important to realize that good skulks will be even more dangerous early to mid-game with Camo, so it certainly can pay off late game as well. When it pays off though, new Marines players are going to be angry that they were killed by something they couldn't see. They probably don't even realize it's their commanders fault.
So in essence, not really OP or UP. It's in an OK place right now.
<!--quoteo(post=2029351:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:53 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 19 2012, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what kind of aiming god you must be, but in a 1v1 situation, you simply cannot react fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's your problem, right there. You don't try to 1v1 invisible Kharaa. As soon as you confirm cloaks, you should be buddying up. The skulk gets his free bite, and your buddy sprays the skulk. Next time it'll be 2v2, and they'll either synch their bites on one marine (after which the buddy kills the first and maybe dies to the second) or bite both to soften them up for the next encounter. This, of course, leads to 3v2, and so on.
The net effect here is that once the marines buddy up, the aliens have to buddy up.. until the Comm gets that Obs going, and then the aliens can do *nothing*. Obviously if the Comm does nothing then coordinated aliens get a free hit on every marine passing through, and the game ends a lot faster to everyone's mutual benefit.
But once the Obs goes up, there's no more free hit and you're still "stuck" with cloak. If you have some sort of chronic fear of Obs then you can try pushing A1, and again I point out that A1 continues to give benefit as it leads to the other upgrades whereas Cloak's useful just stops.
I don't understand why people are saying Obs/scanning is expensive, being able to see where an attack is coming from gives even the most challenged marine a sporting chance of actually shooting in the right direction.
<!--quoteo(post=2029983:date=Nov 20 2012, 04:49 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 20 2012, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's your problem, right there. You don't try to 1v1 invisible Kharaa. As soon as you confirm cloaks, you should be buddying up. The skulk gets his free bite, and your buddy sprays the skulk. Next time it'll be 2v2, and they'll either synch their bites on one marine (after which the buddy kills the first and maybe dies to the second) or bite both to soften them up for the next encounter. This, of course, leads to 3v2, and so on.
The net effect here is that once the marines buddy up, the aliens have to buddy up.. until the Comm gets that Obs going, and then the aliens can do *nothing*. Obviously if the Comm does nothing then coordinated aliens get a free hit on every marine passing through, and the game ends a lot faster to everyone's mutual benefit.
But once the Obs goes up, there's no more free hit and you're still "stuck" with cloak. If you have some sort of chronic fear of Obs then you can try pushing A1, and again I point out that A1 continues to give benefit as it leads to the other upgrades whereas Cloak's useful just stops.
I don't understand why people are saying Obs/scanning is expensive, being able to see where an attack is coming from gives even the most challenged marine a sporting chance of actually shooting in the right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For 1v2 camo is actually amazing. What you do is wait for both marines to go by you, then you kill the second one, hide behind a corner, box whatever and just stealth and kill the first one. Works very effectively even in 3v1 situations. IMO camo just makes skulks amazing but unfortunately most people just don't know how to do it well yet.
HOWEVER with the removal of 2hive onos drop, the midgame of a camo first alien team is simply awful. Fades and lerks need the shift/crag combo pretty badly to do well. So its really quite a big tradeoff - strong early game, weak late game.
The cost of obs/scanning IS large, having to put an obs down in 3-4 locations by midgame is very expensive and delays your ugprades/jetpacks by alot. So even if a commander reacts well to camo, there are still going to be many in between areas where camo will pay off and upgrades will be really late.
Another really powerful camo tactic is to just sit beside an RT when a marine is approaching, let him drop it and instantly kill him and the just started RT goes down in seconds. This is possible obviously without camo, but it is much easier with it.
Statikg has it down right. Camou is strong early game, weak late game. A camou-first alien team actually needs to be AGGRESSIVE. This is not contradictory. Strategically aggressive, tactically passive. Skulks need to rush to forward positions, cloak and set up ambushes as close to marine start as possible. Think of it as an offensive-defence.
Because once marines set up a forward base, then you've lost territory in which you could have ambushed with impunity.
The counter by marines, other than by obs/scans, is actually to push up in a group as fast as possible to a room near the hive, set up PG and Obs, then cut off the aliens' resource towers. With obs/PG next to the hive, camou is negated and skulks are weaker overall.
<!--quoteo(post=2030109:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:17 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 20 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For 1v2 camo is actually amazing. What you do is wait for both marines to go by you, then you kill the second one, hide behind a corner, box whatever and just stealth and kill the first one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The situation you describe relies heavily on the utter incompetence of marines at covering each other. You cannot rely longterm on a strategy that demands the incompetence of your opponents. Sooner or later you'll meet a real challenge, and get utterly destroyed.
I really don't see why earlygame you need to drop 3-4 Obs, when you can cheerfully scan as required. Perhaps as a decoy to occupy a skulk? Again, competent skulks are probably going to be hitting your res first and Obs second. Versus cloak skulks you only need scan, and then your next priority is A1.
With the latest balance changes you would be very foolish to go Camo first without a very aggressive followup. It can be done, and it can be fun, but all skill being equal I'd suggest picking something else.
<!--quoteo(post=2030138:date=Nov 20 2012, 07:50 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 20 2012, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The situation you describe relies heavily on the utter incompetence of marines at covering each other. You cannot rely longterm on a strategy that demands the incompetence of your opponents. Sooner or later you'll meet a real challenge, and get utterly destroyed.
I really don't see why earlygame you need to drop 3-4 Obs, when you can cheerfully scan as required. Perhaps as a decoy to occupy a skulk? Again, competent skulks are probably going to be hitting your res first and Obs second. Versus cloak skulks you only need scan, and then your next priority is A1.
With the latest balance changes you would be very foolish to go Camo first without a very aggressive followup. It can be done, and it can be fun, but all skill being equal I'd suggest picking something else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't require incompetence at all, if your the front most marine, you are typically not looking at the marine behind you. It takes 3 bites to kill a marine and you rarely should miss when you are engaging from invisibility right beside them, this takes about 1 second. Even if we ignore the situations where one marine is building or one marine has just gone around a corner, assuming that your team mate can hear the biting sound, spin 180 degrees and instantly kill a skulk is just false. At best you might get the kill after your friend is already dead, but I would say that your claim that its utter incompetence to let the skulk get behind the nearest box is stretching it if the skulk knows how to dodge around.
Scan costs 3 resources, even if your team is grouped up at only 2 positions (more commonly at least 3), that's 6 resources every time you enter a room, that would be at least half your income going to scanning. Then if as you imply you don't build any observatories, you also need to constantly be scanning wherever your marines are building or defending RTs or doing anything at all stationary for extended periods of time. Its also easy for skulks who get scanned but are not totally committed yet to back off, and move in 10 seconds later.
It also makes it easier to kill marines who are defending RTs. When you hear or see a marine coming, just escape to cover, kill them and continue killing the RT.
Of course I already mentioned that I agree without Tres Onos it gets much harder to effectively fight with shade first, unless the marines do you a favor and jp snipe one of your hives, ;) can't count on that though.
<!--quoteo(post=2028552:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:22 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 19 2012, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo is OP. Having an alien upgrade which is uncounterable by individual marines is just not good. Maybe if marines could do some kind of pulse scans for free, or maybe if there was some cooldown obs scan to show camo skulks for free with a cooldown, it could work.
As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, except if they go in a group and the com keeps scanning. That is a death sentence for the team, more often than not.
You must have not played in the last 3 days, have you...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh please... camo op ? it can be countered so easily, if you defend buy obs, if you're offensive com needs to scan everyonce and while.
if com is ready to drop 6medkits to solo marine, why shouldn't he be ready to scan ? no, sorry, the only problem here is noob coms, if there is shadehive, com needs to scan, simple as that.
camo is fine the way it is now, before it was USELESS.
edit : those who cry "omg scan costs 3tres" i say this again... OH PLEASE.... it's commanders job to support his marines, there is no other problem that stupid commanders that rather save tres for upgrades than support his soldiers.
when i com, i always support my marines from beginning to end, and i win a lot because of it, and if there is shadehive againts, that just means i need to scan and usually my marines gets freekills because skulks are being still and comfortable staying still because of shade / camo.
<!--quoteo(post=2028552:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:22 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 19 2012, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo is OP. Having an alien upgrade which is uncounterable by individual marines is just not good. Maybe if marines could do some kind of pulse scans for free, or maybe if there was some cooldown obs scan to show camo skulks for free with a cooldown, it could work.
As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, except if they go in a group and the com keeps scanning. That is a death sentence for the team, more often than not.
You must have not played in the last 3 days, have you...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ill quote exactly why this argument is fail but i doubt youll even understand
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having an alien upgrade which is <b>uncounterable</b> by <b>individual marines</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, <b>except</b> if they <b>go in a group and the com keeps scanning</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
again, i doubt youll understand, and even see this as nothing but a "flame" . but your own words point out how incorrect you are in every way possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2030143:date=Nov 20 2012, 04:02 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 20 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if your the front most marine, you are typically not looking at the marine behind you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, and the last marine should also be looking behind him. Bite, uncloak, bite while marine reaction fires, bite, his buddies hose the skulk. The skulk is almost certainly uncloaked or has to do some major ballet to dodge reaction fire. Problem is compounded as the number of marines increases, which means you need more skulks to get the same effect. Now, add in more competence and you have marines plus a scan showing exactly where you're hiding.
Sure you could argue something more situational, but I don't think you can say relying on being cloaked beside a vent/box to attack marines is representative of standard play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scan costs 3 resources, even if your team is grouped up at only 2 positions (more commonly at least 3), that's 6 resources every time you enter a room, that would be at least half your income going to scanning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scanning is for moving between bases. You don't drop an Obs at every node, only at bases. If you've 4 bases you're at endgame, and I'd be surprised if anyone is still rocking cloaking during the defense of the last hive. If you've just secured a double node or locked a hive, then certainly it is time to drop an Obs. With competent aim, 3 res of scan is much better than any alternative (with an argument over A1). Competent aim may be a contradiction in terms for the pub game, but 3 marines aiming at the same blip should at the very least be able to fluke enough damage to kill.
I agree that it's great for RT harassment, and to be honest Silenced higher lifeforms are a real pain.
Comments
But it is. You are not bound to one position. You can follow marines. Wait until they start building. You can sit directly in the middle of a passage and just start biting when he connects to you. As I said already 2 times in this thread. People should try it. It is really fun.
Most people are just arguing out of their knowledge from camo in 228. It plays really different now.
Most people are just arguing out of their knowledge from camo in 228. It plays really different now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know how Camo works now, it was just plain bad before. I'm just saying that ambushing pub marines is really really easy even without Camo. Just make intelligent use of crawling and they let their guard down every time. I think the other chambers still provide more value.
For example, say your fighting 2 marines and you kill one and then you know the other is too far. No problem, hop behind a box that would normally have no escape go invisible, now you can walk up and kill the other marine who is running over to kill a trapped and injured skulk. *protip* don't walk in the most predictable path.
Verdict > marines got roflstomped every single game.
Both teams were sensibly the same skill level and commander knew how to scan.
The stay together works well on paper but you tend to forget that aliens can do the same ( and they were ) and scan is very expensive ( 3 is way too high ).
In addition without any "electrify" or such thing alien can navigate through the map without any fear and harass extractors ( since marines all group up that leaves a lot of routes for rt harassment ).
The main issue I think is how fast you can cloack and the new very efficient way of sticking to thing that NS2 introduced.
In NS1 I dont remember being able to move that fast and easily when cloacked.
This is just insane
Could be a good compromise and also the OBs is the counter against camo, as is scans.
Sal
Could be a good compromise and also the OBs is the counter against camo, as is scans.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ this. That's the way it was always supposed to work, I thought. Only 100% when not moving.
<!--quoteo(post=2028705:date=Nov 19 2012, 05:22 AM:name=arnyboy87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arnyboy87 @ Nov 19 2012, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol this is just false It may be a 90% win against a single marine (I could accept that maybe) but not a 90% chance to win the game.
Real question,,, do you play the game? I want to know how many hours you have played because and I don't mean this to be cheeky but either you type alot and don't play,,, or you just troll<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unreal answer: Unfortunately I play the game too much. With this patch, I'm thinking I should probably take a break though... This is honestly the worst I've personally seen the game overall in the last 2+ months. Even the notorious 223g when marines used to bounce like ping pong balls when aliens hit them was preferable to this.
<!--quoteo(post=2028875:date=Nov 19 2012, 09:32 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 19 2012, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing with Camo is that it's extremely pub friendly. Pretty much everyone is guaranteed to get one bite in, and if you're facing marines who struggle with aiming then that free bite also pretty much guarantees the kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what kind of aiming god you must be, but in a 1v1 situation, you simply cannot react fast enough. A camo skulk will end up behind you in your feet, no matter what. There's no way to avoid that without a scan. Zero chance to avoid. When that happens, he is guaranteed to get 2 bites in. With lag comp, even if you have <50 ping, the bites come so fast that he's guaranteed at least 1 bite + 1 glancing bite. The only thing you can then do is sprint-jump in a random direction and 180-shoot a skulk 11 times (13 with cara) before he lands a third, even glancing bite. Good luck with that.
By the way, if you lose, PASSIVE regen will have him up to full health for the next skirmish.
Have fun playing that. I didn't.
The ONLY counter to camo is to get marines into 1 or 2 groups and keep scanning and rescanning and rescanning and rescanning as those one or two groups move around the map, or have groups of players outnumbering the camo skulks watching each other's feet like hawks 100% of the time. First of all, good luck having that kind of organization in a pub game. Second, res is extremely short on marine side and you NEED shotguns/mines/welders/weapon&armor levels/jetpacks/grenade launchers to keep up with the game progression and be able to counter lerks, fades, and oni effectively. Those constant scans just demolish that economy and deliver an easy alien win with regen lerk & cara fade/onos spam.
And why would people want to punish solo marines any further? Doesn't low health, welding, building, reloading, night vision, wall walking, poor lighting and map design make them vulnerable enough? Do you want them to just drop dead if they leave base without holding hands? All the while aliens are free to ###### around solo without much to worry about?
It is hard enough to pressure alien rts as is. And isn't speed for aliens, range for marines a fundamental asymmetry of the game that is pretty much broken by camouflage? Don't get me wrong I love the idea and want it to work because stalking aliens is a huge part of the game. But camo in its current state is a big no, even though being OP was fun for a few games.
How about giving marines a motion sensor similar to the old alien versus predator game? (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPs8dcnEJ-E&feature=player_detailpage#t=50s" target="_blank">linky</a>) It was a two dimensional indicator showing movement in a 180 degree arc in front of you in a limited range. Unlike the scan however this doesn't show exact locations, not even vertical position. But it does alert to alien presence and gives a vague idea of the general direction. And possibly make it detect skulks only if they aren't using stalk, camo or otherwise. In AVP the sensor picked up everything from aliens to doors, grenades, team mates, giving a lot of false alarms which made things even more tense.
This suggestion is incredibly win.
What I think camo should be changed to...
•100% cloaked while on infestation
•75% cloaked moving off infestation
•90% cloaked standing still off infestation
obviously the numbers would probably be different, it's hard to guess without seeing it visually, but you get my point.
edit:
"How about if camo was 100% normally but went down to build 228 level when a marine had his flashlight on you?" ~YoungTrotsky
I think I might prefer this idea, actually.
Crysis had this issue too. I kept wondering how a guy kept sniping me across the map while I was cloaked. Then, after tweaking some video options quite a bit, I found that I could get cloaked players to stick out like a sore, glowing thumb.
TF2 did this correctly too - When invisible, the Spy is INVISIBLE. As in, INVISIBLE. He's just given various other tradeoffs to ensure this isn't overpowered.
<!--quoteo(post=2029077:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Nov 19 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion would be to let the camo give you 100% invisibility if you are not moving, 228 invis if you are moving slowly (and make that movement slightly slower) and non at all once you move fast, attack or jump etc.
Could be a good compromise and also the OBs is the counter against camo, as is scans.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this suggestion a lot. Another idea would be to make it like TF2 where you have to decloak before you can attack which takes a bit of time.
What I think camo should be changed to...
•100% cloaked while on infestation
•75% cloaked moving off infestation
•90% cloaked standing still off infestation
obviously the numbers would probably be different, it's hard to guess without seeing it visually, but you get my point.
edit:
"How about if camo was 100% normally but went down to build 228 level when a marine had his flashlight on you?" ~YoungTrotsky
I think I might prefer this idea, actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can get camo within a minute or two and then see how the marines like that they have no range advantage early game when the battles matter the most.
As a skulk, you got scanned while crawling to a marine and got killed. What could you have done better ? Nothing really, you just got hard-countered. You crawl to a marine a bite his ass, do you feel like you're smart and you outplayed the marine? Nope.
I have to concede that camo is good for trolling though.
Not only that, but they also lose map control, which is also extremely vital early game, because every group of 1-2 marines is doomed. Good luck taking and keeping the 5+ RTs marines need to keep up with aliens in the mid/late-game with invisible skulks camping at each nozzle, WHILE the com scans and rescans everywhere people go, for 3 res a pop (IF he's not absolutely terrible in which case the game just ended). Nevermind that it makes alien RTs and even cysts effectively unkillable (Axing something? Nom nom nom...)
I'd like to see very slow movement mixed with a fast re-cloak time. Would allow an ambush, retreat and set-up again quickly, forcing marines to use scan without being too overpowered.
Eh, it's a Risk vs. Reward. Camo is either going to be useful, like it is now, or something you never see like it was. At least give people that want to try it out something that doesn't <i>completely</i> suck. It's important to realize that good skulks will be even more dangerous early to mid-game with Camo, so it certainly can pay off late game as well. When it pays off though, new Marines players are going to be angry that they were killed by something they couldn't see. They probably don't even realize it's their commanders fault.
So in essence, not really OP or UP. It's in an OK place right now.
There's your problem, right there. You don't try to 1v1 invisible Kharaa. As soon as you confirm cloaks, you should be buddying up. The skulk gets his free bite, and your buddy sprays the skulk. Next time it'll be 2v2, and they'll either synch their bites on one marine (after which the buddy kills the first and maybe dies to the second) or bite both to soften them up for the next encounter. This, of course, leads to 3v2, and so on.
The net effect here is that once the marines buddy up, the aliens have to buddy up.. until the Comm gets that Obs going, and then the aliens can do *nothing*. Obviously if the Comm does nothing then coordinated aliens get a free hit on every marine passing through, and the game ends a lot faster to everyone's mutual benefit.
But once the Obs goes up, there's no more free hit and you're still "stuck" with cloak. If you have some sort of chronic fear of Obs then you can try pushing A1, and again I point out that A1 continues to give benefit as it leads to the other upgrades whereas Cloak's useful just stops.
I don't understand why people are saying Obs/scanning is expensive, being able to see where an attack is coming from gives even the most challenged marine a sporting chance of actually shooting in the right direction.
The net effect here is that once the marines buddy up, the aliens have to buddy up.. until the Comm gets that Obs going, and then the aliens can do *nothing*. Obviously if the Comm does nothing then coordinated aliens get a free hit on every marine passing through, and the game ends a lot faster to everyone's mutual benefit.
But once the Obs goes up, there's no more free hit and you're still "stuck" with cloak. If you have some sort of chronic fear of Obs then you can try pushing A1, and again I point out that A1 continues to give benefit as it leads to the other upgrades whereas Cloak's useful just stops.
I don't understand why people are saying Obs/scanning is expensive, being able to see where an attack is coming from gives even the most challenged marine a sporting chance of actually shooting in the right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For 1v2 camo is actually amazing. What you do is wait for both marines to go by you, then you kill the second one, hide behind a corner, box whatever and just stealth and kill the first one. Works very effectively even in 3v1 situations. IMO camo just makes skulks amazing but unfortunately most people just don't know how to do it well yet.
HOWEVER with the removal of 2hive onos drop, the midgame of a camo first alien team is simply awful. Fades and lerks need the shift/crag combo pretty badly to do well. So its really quite a big tradeoff - strong early game, weak late game.
The cost of obs/scanning IS large, having to put an obs down in 3-4 locations by midgame is very expensive and delays your ugprades/jetpacks by alot. So even if a commander reacts well to camo, there are still going to be many in between areas where camo will pay off and upgrades will be really late.
Another really powerful camo tactic is to just sit beside an RT when a marine is approaching, let him drop it and instantly kill him and the just started RT goes down in seconds. This is possible obviously without camo, but it is much easier with it.
Because once marines set up a forward base, then you've lost territory in which you could have ambushed with impunity.
The counter by marines, other than by obs/scans, is actually to push up in a group as fast as possible to a room near the hive, set up PG and Obs, then cut off the aliens' resource towers. With obs/PG next to the hive, camou is negated and skulks are weaker overall.
The situation you describe relies heavily on the utter incompetence of marines at covering each other. You cannot rely longterm on a strategy that demands the incompetence of your opponents. Sooner or later you'll meet a real challenge, and get utterly destroyed.
I really don't see why earlygame you need to drop 3-4 Obs, when you can cheerfully scan as required. Perhaps as a decoy to occupy a skulk? Again, competent skulks are probably going to be hitting your res first and Obs second. Versus cloak skulks you only need scan, and then your next priority is A1.
With the latest balance changes you would be very foolish to go Camo first without a very aggressive followup. It can be done, and it can be fun, but all skill being equal I'd suggest picking something else.
I really don't see why earlygame you need to drop 3-4 Obs, when you can cheerfully scan as required. Perhaps as a decoy to occupy a skulk? Again, competent skulks are probably going to be hitting your res first and Obs second. Versus cloak skulks you only need scan, and then your next priority is A1.
With the latest balance changes you would be very foolish to go Camo first without a very aggressive followup. It can be done, and it can be fun, but all skill being equal I'd suggest picking something else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't require incompetence at all, if your the front most marine, you are typically not looking at the marine behind you. It takes 3 bites to kill a marine and you rarely should miss when you are engaging from invisibility right beside them, this takes about 1 second. Even if we ignore the situations where one marine is building or one marine has just gone around a corner, assuming that your team mate can hear the biting sound, spin 180 degrees and instantly kill a skulk is just false. At best you might get the kill after your friend is already dead, but I would say that your claim that its utter incompetence to let the skulk get behind the nearest box is stretching it if the skulk knows how to dodge around.
Scan costs 3 resources, even if your team is grouped up at only 2 positions (more commonly at least 3), that's 6 resources every time you enter a room, that would be at least half your income going to scanning. Then if as you imply you don't build any observatories, you also need to constantly be scanning wherever your marines are building or defending RTs or doing anything at all stationary for extended periods of time. Its also easy for skulks who get scanned but are not totally committed yet to back off, and move in 10 seconds later.
It also makes it easier to kill marines who are defending RTs. When you hear or see a marine coming, just escape to cover, kill them and continue killing the RT.
Of course I already mentioned that I agree without Tres Onos it gets much harder to effectively fight with shade first, unless the marines do you a favor and jp snipe one of your hives, ;) can't count on that though.
As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, except if they go in a group and the com keeps scanning. That is a death sentence for the team, more often than not.
You must have not played in the last 3 days, have you...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh please... camo op ? it can be countered so easily, if you defend buy obs, if you're offensive com needs to scan everyonce and while.
if com is ready to drop 6medkits to solo marine, why shouldn't he be ready to scan ? no, sorry, the only problem here is noob coms, if there is shadehive, com needs to scan, simple as that.
camo is fine the way it is now, before it was USELESS.
edit : those who cry "omg scan costs 3tres" i say this again... OH PLEASE.... it's commanders job to support his marines, there is no other problem that stupid commanders that rather save tres for upgrades than support his soldiers.
when i com, i always support my marines from beginning to end, and i win a lot because of it, and if there is shadehive againts, that just means i need to scan and usually my marines gets freekills because skulks are being still and comfortable staying still because of shade / camo.
As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, except if they go in a group and the com keeps scanning. That is a death sentence for the team, more often than not.
You must have not played in the last 3 days, have you...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ill quote exactly why this argument is fail but i doubt youll even understand
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having an alien upgrade which is <b>uncounterable</b> by <b>individual marines</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, <b>except</b> if they <b>go in a group and the com keeps scanning</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
again, i doubt youll understand, and even see this as nothing but a "flame" . but your own words point out how incorrect you are in every way possible.
remove shade
I disagree, and the last marine should also be looking behind him. Bite, uncloak, bite while marine reaction fires, bite, his buddies hose the skulk. The skulk is almost certainly uncloaked or has to do some major ballet to dodge reaction fire. Problem is compounded as the number of marines increases, which means you need more skulks to get the same effect. Now, add in more competence and you have marines plus a scan showing exactly where you're hiding.
Sure you could argue something more situational, but I don't think you can say relying on being cloaked beside a vent/box to attack marines is representative of standard play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scan costs 3 resources, even if your team is grouped up at only 2 positions (more commonly at least 3), that's 6 resources every time you enter a room, that would be at least half your income going to scanning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scanning is for moving between bases. You don't drop an Obs at every node, only at bases. If you've 4 bases you're at endgame, and I'd be surprised if anyone is still rocking cloaking during the defense of the last hive. If you've just secured a double node or locked a hive, then certainly it is time to drop an Obs. With competent aim, 3 res of scan is much better than any alternative (with an argument over A1). Competent aim may be a contradiction in terms for the pub game, but 3 marines aiming at the same blip should at the very least be able to fluke enough damage to kill.
I agree that it's great for RT harassment, and to be honest Silenced higher lifeforms are a real pain.