<!--quoteo(post=2028656:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:41 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 19 2012, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For some weird reason I'm having some faith in humanity today, so I'm letting you think about why a skulk shouldn't be cloaked and silent at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to make an argument? In NS1 you could be silent and cloaked at the same time, to me that's an argument for it actually working and being viable. Not to mention the other comparisons (Cara near Crag, Cele near Shift) that give ability synergies akin to cloak+silence.
Unless you are trying to be a smartass about it and arguing that cloak would fade away as soon as the skulk does something that's silenced (like biting, leaping, shooting para). Having said that: Being cloaked by a Shade should not slow you down to crawling speed, that way silence could be actually useful why being cloaked :P
<!--quoteo(post=2028656:date=Nov 19 2012, 10:41 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 19 2012, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For some weird reason I'm having some faith in humanity today, so I'm letting you think about why a skulk shouldn't be cloaked and silent at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Presumably this would only be if you had silence evolution and were in range of a shade? In which case a lone marine deserves to get killed and a group of marines would be calling down for scans or actively hunting the shade so the cloaking would disappear. I don't see why that's a problem as it comes back to teamwork being the answer, which is what this game is all about.
P.S. A lot of users of this forum do not have English as their first language so it's probably better to write as clearly and honestly as possible and avoid sarcasm, except where hilarious of course.
Just try it out more. So many people arguing here haven't even tried it yet. Go shade hive first and say your skulks they should use camo. It is very effective against lone marines. It is very effective when marines play passive. But if they push hard and in groups toward your hives, camo starts to get useless.
Just try it out more. Try to find a counter. Than we talk about imbalance.
<!--quoteo(post=2028652:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:35 PM:name=YoungTrotsky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YoungTrotsky @ Nov 19 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about if camo was 100% normally but went down to build 228 level when a marine had his flashlight on you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm loving the idea of marines cautiously shining their flashlight all over the room. Definite +1 to this.
<!--quoteo(post=2028656:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:41 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 19 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For some weird reason I'm having some faith in humanity today, so I'm letting you think about why a skulk shouldn't be cloaked and silent at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I definitely think this needs to be played more before deciding one way or the other, but anything that makes things more interesting by forcing a different approach to counter it is a good thing to me. Also note that as well as scanning you can reveal aliens by damaging them, so spraying a few bullets around can be useful particularly if you know there is a camo onos about.
To clarify be silent I don't mean only having the silence upgrade, but walking as well. Skulks shouldn't be able to be cloaked when they walk silently.
<!--quoteo(post=2028644:date=Nov 19 2012, 06:23 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 19 2012, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm amazed that this urban legend is still around. Motion Tracking did <b>nothing at all</b> against cloaking, as a matter of fact cloaking is the hardcounter to motion tracking. Cloaked aliens do not show up on MT even when they are moving, for that very same reason i never researched MT when Kharaa got SC first. Having MT in that kind of situation only gives your Marines a wrong sense of security as most players still believe that cloaked Kharaa do show up on MT (They do not). So when MT had been clear Marines didn't expect any sneaky, cloaked Skulks to be around.
Not to mention that NS2 maps are way too small for MT, having an NS1 like MT in NS2 would give Marines an immense advantage and an even easier time getting and holding map control.
Haven't seen the new camo too much, but the old one had been way too easy to spot most of the time. So if the new one is harder to spot that's fine with me, it's an vastly overrated upgrade anyway, in an ideal situation the camo should come from a nearby shade so you can take silence as an actual upgrade for best synergy effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cloaking was the hard counter to motion tracking in the same way crosswalks are the hard counter to getting hit by cars.
The issue was, without motion tracking, you'd walk into a room and have absolutely zero clue as to where the skulk ran just moments before you got there. With motion tracking you knew there was a skulk in the room, you know he just ran behind the boxes in the corner, but when you get in you just can't see him any more (hint, shoot the area's he could now be sneaking)
Cloaking didn't decrease the effect of motion tracking in any way, motion tracking didn't work for any aliens moving at walking speed weather or not they were cloaked. The only thing cloaking added was the inability to see the skulk standing in the middle of a hallway or what not. The problem was, it was never feasible in NS, under any circumstances, to walk everywhere you went in the map. You just couldn't cover the ground you needed to in order to actually be effective as a team.
Motion tracking was a soft counter to cloaking because it allowed you better map awareness of where cloakers MIGHT be. It wasn't a hard counter, cloaked skulks could still sneak up on you if they had a bit of luck and a good position to start with, however, used in conjunction with scans, and because aliens lacked movement upgrades if they went SC first, (movement upgrades made motion tracking not matter so much, because if you're moving too fast the 5 second delay began to get deceptive) the two obs technologies effectively crushed any attempt to use SC chambers in a sneaky way.
The myth was that cloaking countered motion tracking. That myth was based off of theory crafting. The thousands of hours of gameplay experience were the reality, and they said the opposite.
Camo OP? Lol, it really isn't. Obs and scans still hardcounter it, not to mention it doesn't help you in combat, it only helps you get in that initial bite in, at which point a good marine or marines grouping together will still have a fair chance to win the engagement. Let me know when aliens start using it in competitive play, and actually win games with it, THEN I'll believe it's OP. For now it's still nothing more than a pub gimmick.
<!--quoteo(post=2028675:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:30 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 19 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To clarify be silent I don't mean only having the silence upgrade, but walking as well. Skulks shouldn't be able to be cloaked when they walk silently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG u are crazy you mean shift walk ?!? what have you been smoking so now ailens have to have a downside to moving slowy aswell :P I hope ur just a helpless troll
<!--quoteo(post=2028675:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:30 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 19 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To clarify be silent I don't mean only having the silence upgrade, but walking as well. Skulks shouldn't be able to be cloaked when they walk silently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would mean cloaking only works on skulks moving at full speed. That seems not only counter-intuitive but also would give skulks an advantage in being able to cover the map cloaked with no speed handicap. I don't think being able to hear those little feet a-tap-tap-tapping would be that useful for a marine when an invisible skulks was jumping around at full speed.
<!--quoteo(post=2028639:date=Nov 19 2012, 03:13 AM:name=arnyboy87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arnyboy87 @ Nov 19 2012, 03:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it's worth not playing for and I am sure you will find that there is a very easy way around camo (obs/scans)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the way around it is very easy. It also destroys the marine economy to the point of unplayability.
<!--quoteo(post=2028680:date=Nov 19 2012, 04:35 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 19 2012, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo OP? Lol, it really isn't. Obs and scans still hardcounter it, not to mention it doesn't help you in combat, it only helps you get in that initial bite in, at which point a good marine or marines grouping together will still have a fair chance to win the engagement. Let me know when aliens start using it in competitive play, and actually win games with it, THEN I'll believe it's OP. For now it's still nothing more than a pub gimmick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a pub gimmick when you could see a silhouette at close range. Now it's game-ending. Funny thing is, you can get it first, so the game can end at 1:00 or so.
<!--quoteo(post=2028638:date=Nov 19 2012, 03:12 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 19 2012, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shade rips the alien team apart in tech in the early and mid game. Craig and Shift upgrades are JUST so necessary to keep up in the group vs group combat. Marines are not at a disadvantage when they bunch up, it's actually good for them. Scanning is extremely inexpensive. Obs should really be dropped in every new tech point you get anyways. There is very little economic disadvantage on the marine side from the amount of scanning they have to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree completely. While crag is a must, shift is not so necessary. Shade is extremely effective first or third, probably less-effective second. And marines grouping together is hardly ever good. Marines need to exert map pressure all over the map, and be able to snipe alien RTs and upgrades the same way aliens are able to snipe marine RTs. To disable this ability means easy wins for aliens, which is what at least I'm seeing in 229 so far.
Scanning is extremely expensive. One scan isn't, but when you have to keep rescanning and rescanning, it makes other upgrades get delayed which ends the game economically. By the time fade or onos spam occurs, marines are unable to keep up with it, nevermind that by that time they've probably lost most if not all RTs where there is no obs coverage and "double" RT points on maps, effectively ending the game.
Camo is absolutely DEVASTATING in pubs, even with half-decent commanders and half-decent teams right now. To think otherwise makes me think you haven't actually played against an alien team using it in 229.
<!--quoteo(post=2028690:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:48 AM:name=arnyboy87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arnyboy87 @ Nov 19 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See Troktsky even at work deicated to NS2 :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2028697:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:02 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 19 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When they removed feign death and made silence not really silent by skulks causing the flesh sound when they bite, I started getting shade 3rd too.
Not much of a choice anymore, since camo is a 90% guaranteed win in 229 though. You either do it or you... win more slowly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol this is just false It may be a 90% win against a single marine (I could accept that maybe) but not a 90% chance to win the game.
Real question,,, do you play the game? I want to know how many hours you have played because and I don't mean this to be cheeky but either you type alot and don't play,,, or you just troll
<!--quoteo(post=2028686:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:42 PM:name=YoungTrotsky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YoungTrotsky @ Nov 19 2012, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would mean cloaking only works on skulks moving at full speed. That seems not only counter-intuitive but also would give skulks an advantage in being able to cover the map cloaked with no speed handicap. I don't think being able to hear those little feet a-tap-tap-tapping would be that useful for a marine when an invisible skulks was jumping around at full speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. I don't think cloak is intuitively linked to being slow or being fast. The fade cloaks when blinking at high speed, so at least it would be thematically coherent. Shooting from sound is interesting and not that hard, and is unarguably easier than shooting something that is both invisible and silent.
Shift will almost certainly get nerfed making crag or shade hive a much more viable opener
Veils are cheap and you can usually drop both camo and silence without breaking your early economy
Down the road it might be too good, but for the moment I agree that I would like it to remain as is where Lerks can cloak while gliding and recloak quickly in teh air
Talk about some exaggeration...cloak is not just easymode win for either team. I think its pretty good right now, especially strong in disorganized pub games.
Even if you have a good comm who builds extra obs and scans, at what point in the game do you think you have enough res to afford all that, it shows a complete lack of comm experience to say that you can just place extra obs and scan all the time, you just don't have the res for that for a good portion of the game. It costs alot to scan constantly and even 1 extra obs in the early game is extremely expensive when you consider that you basically MUST have phase gates to hold positions against camo as well, and oh ######, you can't delay your upgrades too long either because shade hive camo is super cheap so that second hive is coming up soon and aliens are holding a bunch of rts because marines can't ninja them easily.
That said its hardly a free win, a strong commander will set up a forward position towards your hive with an observatory and it will be difficult for aliens to defend with the shade upgrades. My personal preference is to get a second hive asap and get some crags to help your team defend and this seems to work well.
I hope that we get a chance to see it in action in competitive play as well. Because its so cheap, you can go immediate hive, shade, camo all right away on 1RT and then put up the second RT at the second hive (somewhat viable on veil perhaps where its hard to pick up a quick second rt?). I played a gather where we did exactly this strategy with silence back in 228 and it actually worked pretty well.
<!--quoteo(post=2028717:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:59 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 19 2012, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. I don't think cloak is intuitively linked to being slow or being fast. The fade cloaks when blinking at high speed, so at least it would be thematically coherent. Shooting from sound is interesting and not that hard, and is unarguably easier than shooting something that is both invisible and silent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you're saying they should then uncloak when walking (holding shift key) as this makes them silent. I think that is counter-intuitive, something that wants to sneak up unseen should have to move slower not faster. Fade blinking isn't really cloaking, they are just moving very fast and surrounded by fog. I don't see how what you're suggesting would be implemented, it seems like you would have it be so that a stationary alien was cloaked (I assume you still want camo on non-moving players), would uncloak if they set off sneaking, and then re-cloak if they went up to full speed. That to me is counter-intuitive and I think new players would be completely baffled.
And I don't think you would be able to aim by sound, the skulk running sound is very disconcerting in terms of spatial awareness, which I think is a good thing. If you choose to evolve camo you sacrifice your ability to get around the map quickly if you want to stay undetected, making it good for ambushing marines in key areas of the map. It shouldn't mean that you can't do anything undetected because you are always making footstep sounds, that would be contrary to the ambush style play it is meant for.
I would make cloak directly proportional to speed, so you would be completely cloaked when at full speed, and not cloaked at all when standing still. It's pretty much the inverse of the current rule so it wouldn't be more complicated for new players. Transparency would be instantaneous and continuous function of speed so it would actually be easier to learn (instantaneous and continuous feedback).
Of course damaging the skulk would make it visible for a while, like here at second 5:
Sure it would change how cloak is played, both for marines and skulk. A skulk wouldn't be able to camp and wait for a marine to pass by, or to crawl its slow ass around the map. Marines would be able to hear and shoot skulks from sound instead of getting bitten by invisible and silent creatures.
<!--quoteo(post=2028678:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:34 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 19 2012, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The myth was that cloaking countered motion tracking. That myth was based off of theory crafting. The thousands of hours of gameplay experience were the reality, and they said the opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the myth i'm referring to is the one that "Cloaked aliens show up on MT" and that simply does not apply. Sure your point is true to a certain extend, MT helps seeing Cloakers before they cloak, but that advantage had been rendered useless when SC's had been distributed around the map (Wouldn't show up to begin with) or the Skulk has been aware of that shortcoming and simply goes into "Sneaky cloak mode" way before entering a room.
But it all depends on the round and the style of gameplay the commander prefers, lazy comm's that can't keep up with scan requests go better with MT, other comm's rather spend those resources on a quick Armor1 (Focus) and an additional OBs for more scan energy.
About the walking and when to be cloaked part: Maybe my memory is wrong, but didn't NS1 SC's allow you to run at full speed and still stay cloaked? Why not handle it the same way in NS2 with Shade's? Shade cloak = Move around at full speed while staying cloaked, Camo upgrade = Cloak breaks when you go over Walk speed.
Or combine it.. people with Camo can run at full speed in Shade range?
So what's the problem in hindering the marines economy by forcing them to constantly scan everywhere from the beginning? Most marine teams will spread into 2 groups. Everytime they go anywhere, 6 res to scan both places. Res node is down? Scan before placing another one or risk losing it again. I wish I could see how many res the commander uses on scans, but usually at the end of the game it can easily go up to 180res invested in scans. It adds up. It slows upgrades down. You can scan all the time early, but you'll get through your res fast.
I like to think of different strategies than the usual 5 minutes Onos most commanders seems to be stuck on. If you get that ultra fast Camo before marines and aliens even met each other, you can severely hinder their res nodes. Nothing stops you from getting a second hive afterwards.
Sure, Celerity or Carapace are better, but in their own different playstyle.
and that's the point I'm trying to make; It's a different playstyle. If you get camo but still hide in the same spots, why use camo at all? Scans are most likely to go off in big rooms, or corridors with vents to prevent an ambush. It's early game; the Marine comm doesn't swim in resources and wont start scanning every inches of the map. Camo is there to force marines into playing more cautiously. It's not about moving around in camo 100% of the time. It does take more teamwork and communication with your team, but ambushing was never easier. So what they can scan; they could've scanned anyway, camo or not.
And Spear, funny how you compare 6pool to anything in this game. I don't see any connection beside fast shift hive and shifts in enemy base + eggs.
Just a matter of trying stuff out. Players aren't used to camo first, and it's a different playstyle; one that's worth investing your time in to try and perfect it.
It's a matter of time before we start seeing original strategies that work well.
I'm pretty sure motion tracking already exists in the game now, it's a passive ability of all observatories. IE you build an obs and BAM, you've got motion tracking within the obs range. Just like in NS1. Why is everyone talking like it doesn't exist?
Scans have the same effect, but can replicate it outside of the obs range.
Camo is in a good spot, I think. Aliens needed a way to make skulks more viable.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:09 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 19 2012, 02:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would make cloak directly proportional to speed...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, that's your opinion. Personally I think the point of camo is to sneak into position and make ambushes, for getting quickly around the map and being vulnerable when standing still there is celerity. The point I wanted to make was that I agree with people that there should probably be something a single marine can do to stand a chance against a camo skulk, so my suggestion is the flashlight reducing the effectiveness of camo.
<!--quoteo(post=2028787:date=Nov 19 2012, 08:08 AM:name=YoungTrotsky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YoungTrotsky @ Nov 19 2012, 08:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK, that's your opinion. Personally I think the point of camo is to sneak into position and make ambushes, for getting quickly around the map and being vulnerable when standing still there is celerity. The point I wanted to make was that I agree with people that there should probably be something a single marine can do to stand a chance against a camo skulk, so my suggestion is the flashlight reducing the effectiveness of camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then make it so the flash light has some sort of warped effect when it hits a cloaked skulk. It doesn't need to be obvious to the point that you can just spin around a room and notice it but if you don't want to get stealth chomped you'll have to take your time to scan over a room yourself and save your team some res.
But keep camo as it is, it should have never been visible under normal conditions in the first place, especially with hard counters like scan and obs.
The thing with Camo is that it's extremely pub friendly. Pretty much everyone is guaranteed to get one bite in, and if you're facing marines who struggle with aiming then that free bite also pretty much guarantees the kill.
However, against people with any sort of experience that advantage disappears. Lots of people hide in the same places. Lob a grenade into a vent and you're almost guaranteed some angry chat about wallhacks. Firing above a door arch will get you accused of cheating.
The money you put into an Obs is easily justified. It immediately levels the playing field, and that free first bite is no longer guaranteed. Scanning also means you can trick Kharaa into thinking a rush is coming, as well as easily identifying things that Marines want to make less of. An Obs also continues to be useful right through. Cloaking, once nullified, is effectively useless for the rest of the game.
Therefore what you could say is that in pubs cloaking shortens a foregone conclusion. If a comm won't react to cloaking then chances are they won't react to a "real" threat. Aliens are doing you a mercy. If the comm reacts, well then you know you've got a good game going.
Frankly I'm surprised that we're into NS2 and the same starting problems from NS1 are being encountered. By now I thought we'd have had an interactive commanding tutorial, either ingame or outside, to explain these things to new players. Whatever happened to Commander training nights on training servers?
Comments
Way to make an argument?
In NS1 you could be silent and cloaked at the same time, to me that's an argument for it actually working and being viable.
Not to mention the other comparisons (Cara near Crag, Cele near Shift) that give ability synergies akin to cloak+silence.
Unless you are trying to be a smartass about it and arguing that cloak would fade away as soon as the skulk does something that's silenced (like biting, leaping, shooting para).
Having said that: Being cloaked by a Shade should not slow you down to crawling speed, that way silence could be actually useful why being cloaked :P
Presumably this would only be if you had silence evolution and were in range of a shade? In which case a lone marine deserves to get killed and a group of marines would be calling down for scans or actively hunting the shade so the cloaking would disappear. I don't see why that's a problem as it comes back to teamwork being the answer, which is what this game is all about.
P.S. A lot of users of this forum do not have English as their first language so it's probably better to write as clearly and honestly as possible and avoid sarcasm, except where hilarious of course.
It is very effective against lone marines. It is very effective when marines play passive. But if they push hard and in groups toward your hives, camo starts to get useless.
Just try it out more. Try to find a counter. Than we talk about imbalance.
I'm loving the idea of marines cautiously shining their flashlight all over the room. Definite +1 to this.
<!--quoteo(post=2028656:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:41 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 19 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For some weird reason I'm having some faith in humanity today, so I'm letting you think about why a skulk shouldn't be cloaked and silent at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because babies would cry to mommy?
Motion Tracking did <b>nothing at all</b> against cloaking, as a matter of fact cloaking is the hardcounter to motion tracking.
Cloaked aliens do not show up on MT even when they are moving, for that very same reason i never researched MT when Kharaa got SC first. Having MT in that kind of situation only gives your Marines a wrong sense of security as most players still believe that cloaked Kharaa do show up on MT (They do not). So when MT had been clear Marines didn't expect any sneaky, cloaked Skulks to be around.
Not to mention that NS2 maps are way too small for MT, having an NS1 like MT in NS2 would give Marines an immense advantage and an even easier time getting and holding map control.
Haven't seen the new camo too much, but the old one had been way too easy to spot most of the time. So if the new one is harder to spot that's fine with me, it's an vastly overrated upgrade anyway, in an ideal situation the camo should come from a nearby shade so you can take silence as an actual upgrade for best synergy effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cloaking was the hard counter to motion tracking in the same way crosswalks are the hard counter to getting hit by cars.
The issue was, without motion tracking, you'd walk into a room and have absolutely zero clue as to where the skulk ran just moments before you got there. With motion tracking you knew there was a skulk in the room, you know he just ran behind the boxes in the corner, but when you get in you just can't see him any more (hint, shoot the area's he could now be sneaking)
Cloaking didn't decrease the effect of motion tracking in any way, motion tracking didn't work for any aliens moving at walking speed weather or not they were cloaked. The only thing cloaking added was the inability to see the skulk standing in the middle of a hallway or what not. The problem was, it was never feasible in NS, under any circumstances, to walk everywhere you went in the map. You just couldn't cover the ground you needed to in order to actually be effective as a team.
Motion tracking was a soft counter to cloaking because it allowed you better map awareness of where cloakers MIGHT be. It wasn't a hard counter, cloaked skulks could still sneak up on you if they had a bit of luck and a good position to start with, however, used in conjunction with scans, and because aliens lacked movement upgrades if they went SC first, (movement upgrades made motion tracking not matter so much, because if you're moving too fast the 5 second delay began to get deceptive) the two obs technologies effectively crushed any attempt to use SC chambers in a sneaky way.
The myth was that cloaking countered motion tracking. That myth was based off of theory crafting. The thousands of hours of gameplay experience were the reality, and they said the opposite.
OMG u are crazy you mean shift walk ?!? what have you been smoking so now ailens have to have a downside to moving slowy aswell :P I hope ur just a helpless troll
That would mean cloaking only works on skulks moving at full speed. That seems not only counter-intuitive but also would give skulks an advantage in being able to cover the map cloaked with no speed handicap. I don't think being able to hear those little feet a-tap-tap-tapping would be that useful for a marine when an invisible skulks was jumping around at full speed.
Yeah, the way around it is very easy. It also destroys the marine economy to the point of unplayability.
<!--quoteo(post=2028680:date=Nov 19 2012, 04:35 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 19 2012, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo OP? Lol, it really isn't. Obs and scans still hardcounter it, not to mention it doesn't help you in combat, it only helps you get in that initial bite in, at which point a good marine or marines grouping together will still have a fair chance to win the engagement. Let me know when aliens start using it in competitive play, and actually win games with it, THEN I'll believe it's OP. For now it's still nothing more than a pub gimmick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a pub gimmick when you could see a silhouette at close range. Now it's game-ending. Funny thing is, you can get it first, so the game can end at 1:00 or so.
<!--quoteo(post=2028638:date=Nov 19 2012, 03:12 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 19 2012, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shade rips the alien team apart in tech in the early and mid game. Craig and Shift upgrades are JUST so necessary to keep up in the group vs group combat. Marines are not at a disadvantage when they bunch up, it's actually good for them. Scanning is extremely inexpensive. Obs should really be dropped in every new tech point you get anyways. There is very little economic disadvantage on the marine side from the amount of scanning they have to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree completely. While crag is a must, shift is not so necessary. Shade is extremely effective first or third, probably less-effective second. And marines grouping together is hardly ever good. Marines need to exert map pressure all over the map, and be able to snipe alien RTs and upgrades the same way aliens are able to snipe marine RTs. To disable this ability means easy wins for aliens, which is what at least I'm seeing in 229 so far.
Scanning is extremely expensive. One scan isn't, but when you have to keep rescanning and rescanning, it makes other upgrades get delayed which ends the game economically. By the time fade or onos spam occurs, marines are unable to keep up with it, nevermind that by that time they've probably lost most if not all RTs where there is no obs coverage and "double" RT points on maps, effectively ending the game.
Camo is absolutely DEVASTATING in pubs, even with half-decent commanders and half-decent teams right now. To think otherwise makes me think you haven't actually played against an alien team using it in 229.
Good lad
It makes the game pace slower for sure over the standard Shift/Shell/Shade.
I guess it comes down to personal choice as it did in NS1.
Not much of a choice anymore, since camo is a 90% guaranteed win in 229 though. You either do it or you... win more slowly.
Not much of a choice anymore, since camo is a 90% guaranteed win in 229 though. You either do it or you... win more slowly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol this is just false It may be a 90% win against a single marine (I could accept that maybe) but not a 90% chance to win the game.
Real question,,, do you play the game? I want to know how many hours you have played because and I don't mean this to be cheeky but either you type alot and don't play,,, or you just troll
Exactly. I don't think cloak is intuitively linked to being slow or being fast. The fade cloaks when blinking at high speed, so at least it would be thematically coherent. Shooting from sound is interesting and not that hard, and is unarguably easier than shooting something that is both invisible and silent.
You gotta look froward a bit. . .
Shift will almost certainly get nerfed making crag or shade hive a much more viable opener
Veils are cheap and you can usually drop both camo and silence without breaking your early economy
Down the road it might be too good, but for the moment I agree that I would like it to remain as is where Lerks can cloak while gliding and recloak quickly in teh air
Even if you have a good comm who builds extra obs and scans, at what point in the game do you think you have enough res to afford all that, it shows a complete lack of comm experience to say that you can just place extra obs and scan all the time, you just don't have the res for that for a good portion of the game. It costs alot to scan constantly and even 1 extra obs in the early game is extremely expensive when you consider that you basically MUST have phase gates to hold positions against camo as well, and oh ######, you can't delay your upgrades too long either because shade hive camo is super cheap so that second hive is coming up soon and aliens are holding a bunch of rts because marines can't ninja them easily.
That said its hardly a free win, a strong commander will set up a forward position towards your hive with an observatory and it will be difficult for aliens to defend with the shade upgrades. My personal preference is to get a second hive asap and get some crags to help your team defend and this seems to work well.
I hope that we get a chance to see it in action in competitive play as well. Because its so cheap, you can go immediate hive, shade, camo all right away on 1RT and then put up the second RT at the second hive (somewhat viable on veil perhaps where its hard to pick up a quick second rt?). I played a gather where we did exactly this strategy with silence back in 228 and it actually worked pretty well.
But you're saying they should then uncloak when walking (holding shift key) as this makes them silent. I think that is counter-intuitive, something that wants to sneak up unseen should have to move slower not faster. Fade blinking isn't really cloaking, they are just moving very fast and surrounded by fog. I don't see how what you're suggesting would be implemented, it seems like you would have it be so that a stationary alien was cloaked (I assume you still want camo on non-moving players), would uncloak if they set off sneaking, and then re-cloak if they went up to full speed. That to me is counter-intuitive and I think new players would be completely baffled.
And I don't think you would be able to aim by sound, the skulk running sound is very disconcerting in terms of spatial awareness, which I think is a good thing. If you choose to evolve camo you sacrifice your ability to get around the map quickly if you want to stay undetected, making it good for ambushing marines in key areas of the map. It shouldn't mean that you can't do anything undetected because you are always making footstep sounds, that would be contrary to the ambush style play it is meant for.
Of course damaging the skulk would make it visible for a while, like here at second 5:
<img src="http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9132/blinkablink.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Sure it would change how cloak is played, both for marines and skulk. A skulk wouldn't be able to camp and wait for a marine to pass by, or to crawl its slow ass around the map.
Marines would be able to hear and shoot skulks from sound instead of getting bitten by invisible and silent creatures.
Actually the myth i'm referring to is the one that "Cloaked aliens show up on MT" and that simply does not apply.
Sure your point is true to a certain extend, MT helps seeing Cloakers before they cloak, but that advantage had been rendered useless when SC's had been distributed around the map (Wouldn't show up to begin with) or the Skulk has been aware of that shortcoming and simply goes into "Sneaky cloak mode" way before entering a room.
But it all depends on the round and the style of gameplay the commander prefers, lazy comm's that can't keep up with scan requests go better with MT, other comm's rather spend those resources on a quick Armor1 (Focus) and an additional OBs for more scan energy.
About the walking and when to be cloaked part: Maybe my memory is wrong, but didn't NS1 SC's allow you to run at full speed and still stay cloaked? Why not handle it the same way in NS2 with Shade's? Shade cloak = Move around at full speed while staying cloaked, Camo upgrade = Cloak breaks when you go over Walk speed.
Or combine it.. people with Camo can run at full speed in Shade range?
I like to think of different strategies than the usual 5 minutes Onos most commanders seems to be stuck on. If you get that ultra fast Camo before marines and aliens even met each other, you can severely hinder their res nodes. Nothing stops you from getting a second hive afterwards.
Sure, Celerity or Carapace are better, but in their own different playstyle.
and that's the point I'm trying to make; It's a different playstyle. If you get camo but still hide in the same spots, why use camo at all? Scans are most likely to go off in big rooms, or corridors with vents to prevent an ambush. It's early game; the Marine comm doesn't swim in resources and wont start scanning every inches of the map. Camo is there to force marines into playing more cautiously. It's not about moving around in camo 100% of the time. It does take more teamwork and communication with your team, but ambushing was never easier. So what they can scan; they could've scanned anyway, camo or not.
And Spear, funny how you compare 6pool to anything in this game. I don't see any connection beside fast shift hive and shifts in enemy base + eggs.
Just a matter of trying stuff out. Players aren't used to camo first, and it's a different playstyle; one that's worth investing your time in to try and perfect it.
It's a matter of time before we start seeing original strategies that work well.
Plus, Camo + Regen is damn fun.
I'm pretty sure motion tracking already exists in the game now, it's a passive ability of all observatories. IE you build an obs and BAM, you've got motion tracking within the obs range. Just like in NS1. Why is everyone talking like it doesn't exist?
Scans have the same effect, but can replicate it outside of the obs range.
Camo is in a good spot, I think. Aliens needed a way to make skulks more viable.
OK, that's your opinion. Personally I think the point of camo is to sneak into position and make ambushes, for getting quickly around the map and being vulnerable when standing still there is celerity.
The point I wanted to make was that I agree with people that there should probably be something a single marine can do to stand a chance against a camo skulk, so my suggestion is the flashlight reducing the effectiveness of camo.
The point I wanted to make was that I agree with people that there should probably be something a single marine can do to stand a chance against a camo skulk, so my suggestion is the flashlight reducing the effectiveness of camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then make it so the flash light has some sort of warped effect when it hits a cloaked skulk. It doesn't need to be obvious to the point that you can just spin around a room and notice it but if you don't want to get stealth chomped you'll have to take your time to scan over a room yourself and save your team some res.
But keep camo as it is, it should have never been visible under normal conditions in the first place, especially with hard counters like scan and obs.
If it works because your team and comm are awful, it's OP. A team and comm that actually know how to play? They'll spank your sorry asses.
imo soooo much more entertaining than current tres onos metagame :/
However, against people with any sort of experience that advantage disappears. Lots of people hide in the same places. Lob a grenade into a vent and you're almost guaranteed some angry chat about wallhacks. Firing above a door arch will get you accused of cheating.
The money you put into an Obs is easily justified. It immediately levels the playing field, and that free first bite is no longer guaranteed. Scanning also means you can trick Kharaa into thinking a rush is coming, as well as easily identifying things that Marines want to make less of. An Obs also continues to be useful right through. Cloaking, once nullified, is effectively useless for the rest of the game.
Therefore what you could say is that in pubs cloaking shortens a foregone conclusion. If a comm won't react to cloaking then chances are they won't react to a "real" threat. Aliens are doing you a mercy. If the comm reacts, well then you know you've got a good game going.
Frankly I'm surprised that we're into NS2 and the same starting problems from NS1 are being encountered. By now I thought we'd have had an interactive commanding tutorial, either ingame or outside, to explain these things to new players. Whatever happened to Commander training nights on training servers?