change what you want but leave camo alone
arnyboy87
Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155551Members
Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155551Members
Pretty much says it all ,, camo before was just bad as any marine worth his weight could see and fade in camo , the trade off is that you can get scanned out,you move alot slower
leave as is :P actual went shade instead of shift the other night and it worked :P
If a fade is killing your team 1 by 1 in a corrider, don't moan go in a group and get your comm to scan!
leave as is :P actual went shade instead of shift the other night and it worked :P
If a fade is killing your team 1 by 1 in a corrider, don't moan go in a group and get your comm to scan!
Comments
As is, camo single-handedly disables the ability of marines to be aggressive, except if they go in a group and the com keeps scanning. That is a death sentence for the team, more often than not.
<!--quoteo(post=2028551:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:21 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 19 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll be honest... I haven't even been able to tell that there was a camo change. What exactly was it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must have not played in the last 3 days, have you...?
It is funny as heck to be a Camo'd Onos around the corner and killing the first marine that turns the corner though.
Camo is by far the most pressing issue in 229 IMO. Regen's not that big of a deal.
Imbalanxd, it used to give a sort of predator-esque shimmer effect when you moved, now it's 100% invisibility. Went from pure garbage to pure gold. Most pub teams are not anywhere near good enough to pull it off yet though.
leave as is :P actual went shade instead of shift the other night and it worked :P
If a fade is killing your team 1 by 1 in a corrider, don't moan go in a group and get your comm to scan!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shade first as a chamber is the 6 pool of NS. It's a bland all in. It means nothing that you "went shade first, and it worked" because sure, it does work every once in a while, but if the marines know the counter to it, you just lose. It's not a viable skillful build path.
Also Heatsurge no offence I know I named you personal but only coz you put your commented, this patch has actual saw camo been used and I for 1 love it not having to get celerity as a must
I would like to see a ppl be happy with the upgrade but I think the 100% camo should stay maybe add a small audio noise if marines get close to a alien, so he can ask his comm for a scan,, how about that ?? (oh like the predators clicks lol how cool would that be :P )
A cloak that still leaves you visable is no cloak at all
Keep Camo the way it is.
228 camo was mostly crap, yes. But I fear that 229 camo may be op. Most things that are extreme fun to use, are op. But I would seriously miss it.
Anyway. I say, give it more time. Most people didn't realized it changed and haven't tried shade hive first yet. I can say, it's a very powerful tactic and I will use it more often in the future.
Also I think for the most part ppl just need better comms :P we have/had no problems against camo or shade tech as we have a comm that will listen to us :P and player that now to take out the shade first :P
In the low chance that EVERYONE on the marine team knows what they're doing, and the commander has experience and skill, the marines have a low chance to win.
That's just not acceptable imo, but whatever. I may stop playing for a while if it's not fixed in 230 one way or another. I'm sure I won't be missed xD .
Also I think for the most part ppl just need better comms :P we have/had no problems against camo or shade tech as we have a comm that will listen to us :P and player that now to take out the shade first :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know when the commander scans an area and white crosshairs pop up in all the areas where skulks are? It's that, but you research it once and it lasts the rest of the game and covers the entire map (until all obs are killed anyways). It basically shut down any attempt by the aliens to be sneaky ever. Even then, at a cost of 30 res most marines teams would delay it until after weapons 3 was complete.
In the low chance that EVERYONE on the marine team knows what they're doing, and the commander has experience and skill, the marines have a low chance to win.
That's just not acceptable imo, but whatever. I may stop playing for a while if it's not fixed in 230 one way or another. I'm sure I won't be missed xD .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Once aliens get camo, 1 marine shouts out "I just uncloaked a harvester" and then the marines scan in front of their armies, and the aliens instantly lose the game. It's not very difficult for the commander, he just needs to not wear underwear on his head on a daily basis pretty much.
Look, I realize we have a lot of newer players in NS2 right now, but this isn't rocket science. It's the kind of thing you only need to experience once in the chair to be able to do an incredibly effective job of countering it for the rest of your life. Scanning once every 30 seconds is not something that requires weeks of practice to master.
There are VERY few commanders out there that cannot handle this situation.
Seriously. 1 pack of mines costs as much as 5 scans. You only need 1 obs and you can scan an unlimited amount as long as you have res. It takes basically any room on the map and gives every marine nearby wall hacks, there doesn't even need to be the possibility of cloaked skulks for it to often be a good idea. I honestly thank khamms that go shade first for reminding me to use the overpowered support ability I have.
The only thing overpowered about shade first hives is my rage level as an alien player having to deal with a khamm that's inflicted that sin upon me.
Motion tracking was a researchable upgrade from NS1 that allowed the marines to view alien movement on their HUD as if an Observatory was nearby. 35 res from obs if memory serves
It only worked through walls, so while in the same room as a cloaked alien, you wouldn't be able to know exactly where it was, but you would get a warning before you entered.
It refreshed once every 5 seconds or so, so it wasn't exact.
This only worked when the alien was moving.
Obviously there are major balance implications for allowing marines to see through walls (albiet in a limited fashion), but this was the only viable way to not give cloak an almost 100% kill ratio.
Also, aliens had scent of fear in NS1 that allowed pretty much the same thing, but constant.
In any case, having to go in groups and ping every 10 seconds at 3 or 6 res (if you have two groups you have to ping two places) shuts games down rapidly - early game, or even mid- and late-game.
Marines need their res for tech. It's barely enough even when they have more RTs (which is in every game which is viable to play) than aliens, and the constant scans just shut the game down.
Camo -> Slow economic death.
Or you could scan... Scan was free in NS1 (although the general strategy for countering SC first was to drop a second obs, scan a lot, and immediately go for a 2 hive lock down to exploit the relative weakness of hive 1 skulks while they couldn't exploit cloak)
SC first became viable when focus was attached to SC, but it was still generally weaker to MC-SC because focus paired with leap and celerity was ungodly, and celerity was just so nice as the first upgrade.
NS2 has moved backwards in terms of making SC first viable.
I mean, pre-229 camo was horrible, you could EASILY see it from miles away. The camo should be maybe not 100%, but really, really hard to see. Like, you'd have to be standing still to spot it, and even then, it should only be a FAINT GLIMMER that doesn't reveal any shape or anything, just a faint obscuration in your peripheral vision.
Camo skulk right now is basically a Silence skulk that comes from behind you, except that you can hear when a Camo skulk bites you. It's not horrendously OP, but it's pretty damn easy to get the first bite in.
Also taking SC means either no celerity or no carapace at second hive. That is a massive consequence. Shade is notoriously bad for the two heavy lifter classes of the alien team, not to mention that it does absolutely nothing for the gorge.
I think that, just as rapid weapon upgrades at the cost of any other tech can be quite devastating to the aliens, while not paying off in the long run, you need to face the fact that, if the aliens go shade hive first, you are going to need to move in force, or risk being ambushed and killed. Change your play style.
In any case, having to go in groups and ping every 10 seconds at 3 or 6 res (if you have two groups you have to ping two places) shuts games down rapidly - early game, or even mid- and late-game.
Marines need their res for tech. It's barely enough even when they have more RTs (which is in every game which is viable to play) than aliens, and the constant scans just shut the game down.
Camo -> Slow economic death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shade rips the alien team apart in tech in the early and mid game. Craig and Shift upgrades are JUST so necessary to keep up in the group vs group combat. Marines are not at a disadvantage when they bunch up, it's actually good for them. Scanning is extremely inexpensive. Obs should really be dropped in every new tech point you get anyways. There is very little economic disadvantage on the marine side from the amount of scanning they have to do.
Once every 10 seconds is far too frequently. An alien can't suddenly teleport onto the ceiling and cloak as soon as your scan wears off, it takes a significant amount of time for them to establish a new ambush position. Waiting for them to try to ambush before scanning is actually beneficial, since you usually catch skulks crawling idiotically along the floor standing basically still that get shot to bits instantly as soon as the scan lays down. The thing is obs also counters silence, as the motion tracking effect of nearby obs and scans means it doesn't matter as much. 1 extractor full funds all the scanning you need to do to counter shade first hive (3.3 scans per minute), and your marine team will need to be terrible to not be able to exploit the advantage of scans shutting down all alien offensive efforts to not take at least 1 extra extractor.
If the commander is decent, and your team loses to shade first, you would have lost to shift first, and you would have been MASTICATED with craig first.
[edit] craig first shade second is viable, as the midgame is more chaotic than the early game, which means more missed scans, and the big advantage of shift first (laying down beds of eggs in high traffic areas) isn't quite as powerful in the midgame where you have the second hive also spewing out eggs as well. Adrenaline is bad, it's only really useful for lerks and gorges, neither of which are deal sealers in the midgame (onos is the only thing you really need to care about right now), and celerity stops being good as soon as you get shot, it helps map control in the early game, but you don't usually need to go very far to get into a fight in the mid game, marines have pushed so far forward by then. The viable builds right now are cr/st/sd, cr/sd/st, st/cr/sd. The other builds are all either just bad, or gimmicky and unreliable.
In the low chance that EVERYONE on the marine team knows what they're doing, and the commander has experience and skill, the marines have a low chance to win.
That's just not acceptable imo, but whatever. I may stop playing for a while if it's not fixed in 230 one way or another. I'm sure I won't be missed xD .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's worth not playing for and I am sure you will find that there is a very easy way around camo (obs/scans)
I think if having camo shuts down a marine team they aren't playing well enough don't think we should make alien upgrades suite the player skill of the marine team ( you wounldn't expect Weapon upgrades to take into account how stuipd the skulk getting shot at is, would you? ) what people need to remember is getting a 3rd hive can be really hard and Alot of res investment, so you can really only reilably get 2 hives hence by taking shade you are missing crag or shift and with not having them you loss the upgrades aswell as the building that come with them, we already have enough downsides to chossen which hive we want :P (which I like btw)
It only worked through walls, so while in the same room as a cloaked alien, you wouldn't be able to know exactly where it was, but you would get a warning before you entered.
It refreshed once every 5 seconds or so, so it wasn't exact.
This only worked when the alien was moving.
Obviously there are major balance implications for allowing marines to see through walls (albiet in a limited fashion), but this was the only viable way to not give cloak an almost 100% kill ratio.
Also, aliens had scent of fear in NS1 that allowed pretty much the same thing, but constant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm amazed that this urban legend is still around.
Motion Tracking did <b>nothing at all</b> against cloaking, as a matter of fact cloaking is the hardcounter to motion tracking.
Cloaked aliens do not show up on MT even when they are moving, for that very same reason i never researched MT when Kharaa got SC first. Having MT in that kind of situation only gives your Marines a wrong sense of security as most players still believe that cloaked Kharaa do show up on MT (They do not). So when MT had been clear Marines didn't expect any sneaky, cloaked Skulks to be around.
Not to mention that NS2 maps are way too small for MT, having an NS1 like MT in NS2 would give Marines an immense advantage and an even easier time getting and holding map control.
Haven't seen the new camo too much, but the old one had been way too easy to spot most of the time. So if the new one is harder to spot that's fine with me, it's an vastly overrated upgrade anyway, in an ideal situation the camo should come from a nearby shade so you can take silence as an actual upgrade for best synergy effects.
You just need to implement some kind of mechanism that allow you to be cloaked OR silent, but never both at the same time.
You just need to implement some kind of mechanism that allow you to be cloaked OR silent, but never both at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And why is that? Wouldn't that also mean that you should never have more Armor and Regenerate Health at the same time? (Having cara near a crag) Or be faster and generate more Adren (Cele near a shift) at the same time?
Where do people come up with these kind of "design wisdoms" that go against everything that made NS1 work in the first place?
The option to combine these things is what made them awesome in the first place, if all the upgrades and "cool perks" boil down to "pick ONE!" we might as well just remove all alternate upgrade choices.
You are going to need a reason for stating this. I don't believe that there is a universal design heuristic saying that these two attributes can never go together.