<!--quoteo(post=2026655:date=Nov 17 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Clyde)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clyde @ Nov 17 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My impression is that the game is probably balanced for competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2026320:date=Nov 16 2012, 08:35 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 16 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've noticed that, for some strange reason, Marines feel like they need to axe down each cyst in a chain as they go along. This alerts every single alien on the map to where, exactly, they are located. While your team is hacking merrily away, I'm silently coming up behind them for a free kill. It's even better when they use their gun to shoot the cyst they're standing next to. A marine without ammo is a dead marine.
I guess none of them realize that axing each Cyst is a horrible move. Good Marines will just kill one, maybe two cysts, and take out half the map.
I use this example to illustrate that most Marines players are, quite simply, terrible. They're easily distracted, easy to find, and have zero situation awareness.
With a team like that, you won't win. The best commander in the world couldn't forge such a team into an effective fighting force.
The saddest thing? They don't even realize how big of a mistake they're making most of the time, and either no one tells them to stop or the individual doesn't listen. They often times don't even notice that I'm rebuilding cysts behind them as they go.
The game is relatively balanced when people have a clue. It's impossible to balance around the clueless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A team of idiots can win as aliens. Same can't be said for marines.
We don't need the game to be "balanced" like COD or other games where all the classes are the same, both sides are the same, but just look different.
What every review of NS2 since release through 228 said was THEY NAILED ASYMMETRIC WARFARE PERFECTLY. This is what I also found most striking since launch. It was great, and I was all praise for how they managed to do it.
Then 229 came out and blew that to smithereens.
Maybe that ridiculous first Gamespot review was oddly prescient afterall...
Back in 228 I was lamenting my failure to purchase the beta and get the cool black armor (though it looks like some polyester in some angles). Now I'm thankful I didn't fork out $40 or whatever for it. Because if I had, I'd be so incredibly irritated for having paid so much back then for the piffle that would result in 229.
All these kind of threads mostly boil down to this: I lost a few games in a row because the teams were stacking, and our team wasn't that good, so it must be unbalanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2026772:date=Nov 17 2012, 08:02 AM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 17 2012, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All these kind of threads mostly boil down to this: I lost a few games in a row because the teams were stacking, and our team wasn't that good, so it must be unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you even bothered to read what people are writing? It isn't a "few" games. It's the majority of games. And most of these threads and posts actually have considered opinions backed by personal experience. Please stop the fanboyism and take into account that not everyone has the same gameplay experience as you. In fact, it looks like the majority of the community are very upset about the recent alien buffs, and there are stats to prove it.
Don't you think it's odd that all these threads appeared AFTER 229? And by people who had no such problems BEFORE 229?
Please think a little harder before dismissing people's comments.
<!--quoteo(post=2026777:date=Nov 17 2012, 07:07 AM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Nov 17 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you even bothered to read what people are writing? It isn't a "few" games. It's the majority of games. And most of these threads and posts actually have considered opinions backed by personal experience. Please stop the fanboyism and take into account that not everyone has the same gameplay experience as you. In fact, it looks like the majority of the community are very upset about the recent alien buffs, and there are stats to prove it.
Thanks :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I read. I think. I compare to my own experiences. And I conclude that OP must have gotten stuck with a bad team/comm for a few games in a row.
There's no need to call me a fanboy (although technically I am a fan). I see the good and the bad in this game. Yes, there are some alien buffs this build that need some attention, and I hate the early onos as much as anyone, but it's ridiculous how much of these "game is unbalanced!" threads are just poorly argumented rants. OP is claiming he has yet to win a game as marines, with I think is a either a preposterous claim or just an unusual long series of bad luck. Why do I think that? Because I've seen marines win plenty, and because they can expand much quicker than aliens if the team is any good.
Also, don't speak for the majority of the community.
<!--quoteo(post=2026783:date=Nov 17 2012, 07:18 AM:name=NoMoreChillies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NoMoreChillies @ Nov 17 2012, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->play as alien: go where u like, do what u want and still win with Onos spam
play as marine: play perfect teamwork or face Onos spam stomping your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a gross oversimplification. Aliens might require less teamwork than marines, but you still have to watch the minimap, defend vital res nodes and your hives, harass enemy res nodes, etc. You can't just do what you want and still win.
I've been playing MP games for a long time now, and as far as the lamentations of "It's broken!" are concerned, it's not so bad as you may think. I can recall a number of games that were said to be 'unplayable', at various points in their lives, and they continued the cycle of patch / exploit for years. Half of the fun to be had with playing against humans is learning sneaky ###### tricks, and then having them turned against you.
There are issues that need to be addressed, yet as far as my research into the subject goes, they ARE being looked at. A patch is in the works, and while it may not IMMEDIATELY and IRREVOCABLY address all your issues, it is a step forward. Many of these steps are yet to be taken, but they are inevitable. Your concerns are founded, but it's not the end of the world! If you find yourself getting killed by an early onos, grow a mustache, harden the **** up, and chase that ###### down. Chase him with all the rabid, suicidal energy you (######) chase a gorge with, and then find the aliens gimped of Tres.
The greatest difficulty of balancing asymmetric games is that there is always going to be some smart-arse somewhere who figures out a game winner, and abuses it. This is human nature, to probe and to analyse, and to find loopholes. UWE can never prevent it, only fix it afterwards.
Perhaps what is needed isn't for everyone to come here and complain about it, but to get in the damn game and develop some ######ly stratagems against it.
For UWE, thanks for the great game. I thoroughly enjoy it.
<!--quoteo(post=2026808:date=Nov 17 2012, 08:49 AM:name=Soruz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soruz @ Nov 17 2012, 08:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been playing MP games for a long time now, and as far as the lamentations of "It's broken!" are concerned, it's not so bad as you may think. I can recall a number of games that were said to be 'unplayable', at various points in their lives, and they continued the cycle of patch / exploit for years. Half of the fun to be had with playing against humans is learning sneaky ###### tricks, and then having them turned against you.
There are issues that need to be addressed, yet as far as my research into the subject goes, they ARE being looked at. A patch is in the works, and while it may not IMMEDIATELY and IRREVOCABLY address all your issues, it is a step forward. Many of these steps are yet to be taken, but they are inevitable. Your concerns are founded, but it's not the end of the world! If you find yourself getting killed by an early onos, grow a mustache, harden the **** up, and chase that ###### down. Chase him with all the rabid, suicidal energy you (######) chase a gorge with, and then find the aliens gimped of Tres.
The greatest difficulty of balancing asymmetric games is that there is always going to be some smart-arse somewhere who figures out a game winner, and abuses it. This is human nature, to probe and to analyse, and to find loopholes. UWE can never prevent it, only fix it afterwards.
Perhaps what is needed isn't for everyone to come here and complain about it, but to get in the damn game and develop some ######ly stratagems against it.
For UWE, thanks for the great game. I thoroughly enjoy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice little PR piece. wink wink
Now please tell me how marines can possibly stand up to 6 min onos.
Or maybe your mustached mouth can tell me why we would need to chase an onos when he doesn't run away anymore... remember, they regen while being shot at now. Furthermore, if a noob onos doesn't have regen and runs, please tell me how to kill him after chasing him when he stops round a corner at the alien forward base, equipped with unlimited whips and two crags and a shade. Tell me please how easy that is.
<!--quoteo(post=2026466:date=Nov 17 2012, 05:06 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 17 2012, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed, the best methodology for balancing a game as complex as this is with small changes, like using a chisel to carve out the perfect statue. Just look at SC2 for example, in the first beta there were changes like an increase of 3 seconds in marine build time, and something like the slight queen range increase changed the metagame completely at a high level. I think the key to NS2 is taking a lot more thought in balance changes like having it go through a balance team for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference being that Starcraft isn't asymmetrical, and therefore doesn't face balance challenges anywhere near the kind NS2 does. Everybody plays the game in the exact same way, the things they click on just happen to look a little different. Ask yourself what the profound game changing assymetrical differences there are between a zergling and a zealout. Protip: there aren't any. Its basically just a reskin.
<!--quoteo(post=2026844:date=Nov 17 2012, 09:28 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 17 2012, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference being that Starcraft isn't asymmetrical, and therefore doesn't face balance challenges anywhere near the kind NS2 does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
higher league players would disagree with you here.... just ask them about the balance between each matchup....
<!--quoteo(post=2026844:date=Nov 17 2012, 09:28 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 17 2012, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ask yourself what the profound game changing assymetrical differences there are between a zergling and a zealout. Protip: there aren't any. Its basically just a reskin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2026467:date=Nov 17 2012, 03:07 AM:name=Hivelord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hivelord @ Nov 17 2012, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is, in pubs marines are more unforgiving. If you make any mistakes on marines such as loss of RT's or map control you're suddenly at a massive disadvantage. Most pubs I've played with recently the marines haven't even been able to get and hold a second command station.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually its the other way around. Marines can recycle and the spawn mechanism makes it incredibly difficult for aliens to snipe off upgrade buildings. Onotp of that you can have instant travel to any important part of the map (PGs) and your res towers (and buildings in general) are not dependant on a massive expensive vulgnerable chain of cysts. Aliens are the ones who get screwed by losing 1 harvester not marines....
Aliens are way more unforgiving to play than marines, if you lose your second hive it's almost always a GG, where as marines can easily turtle on 1 CC and even have a fair shot at winning with just that. An inexperienced commander however IS more detrimental to marines than it is to aliens, and I honestly wouldn't underestimate the significant impact this has on marine win rates.
The problem is not the balance, its nearly always the players, as I've seen. The aliens do not need so much communication with the commander than the marines. I've played both sides as Com and I always realize that you can't play MarineCommander when your team is bad, but you can easily play (is it called) Kharmmander (?) even with a bad team.
I've often give marines orders, sometimes even with ingame voice and they completely ignore it, do their own thing or are just bad players because they are new to the game.
I set up a second Commandstation, phasegate and armory and all they do is running around the map and not defending it even when i say so... and then i get flamed why i didn't built any sentrys :(
Whereas as Kharmmander you skulks can simply run around the map and harass the marines when you are building up everything you need.
Also the marines tend to turtle and be defensive. this is good in several situations (for example when you have not so good players or being rushed very hard) but most of the time marines need to rush right from the start so the aliens don't get mapcontrol.
People need to learn how the game works, that marines need to rush, need to defend the extractors and be more communicative, then everything goes right ;)
What the game currently needs is just a longer "warmup round" before the actual match starts. Very often the match is already going for 30-60 seconds before players could even load the map. No time for organization there to see who is going commander and in which direction people are supposed to spread out. And a khammander can already secure two or more additional RTs in that time while the marine commander is waiting for enough players on his team to actually build RTs, base structures and being able to defend those against the initial alien rush.
<!--quoteo(post=2026951:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:48 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Nov 17 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the game currently needs is just a longer "warmup round" before the actual match starts. Very often the match is already going for 30-60 seconds before players could even load the map. No time for organization there to see who is going commander and in which direction people are supposed to spread out. And a khammander can already secure two or more additional RTs in that time while the marine commander is waiting for enough players on his team to actually build RTs, base structures and being able to defend those against the initial alien rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2026951:date=Nov 17 2012, 11:48 AM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Nov 17 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the game currently needs is just a longer "warmup round" before the actual match starts. Very often the match is already going for 30-60 seconds before players could even load the map. No time for organization there to see who is going commander and in which direction people are supposed to spread out. And a khammander can already secure two or more additional RTs in that time while the marine commander is waiting for enough players on his team to actually build RTs, base structures and being able to defend those against the initial alien rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2026701:date=Nov 17 2012, 04:18 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 17 2012, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you looked at current competitive balance compared to how it is in pubs, you would wish that you have never seen such a horror.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which team is it unbalanced towards in competitive play?
<!--quoteo(post=2026466:date=Nov 16 2012, 10:06 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 16 2012, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed, the best methodology for balancing a game as complex as this is with small changes, like using a chisel to carve out the perfect statue. Just look at SC2 for example, in the first beta there were changes like an increase of 3 seconds in marine build time, and something like the slight queen range increase changed the metagame completely at a high level. I think the key to NS2 is taking a lot more thought in balance changes like having it go through a balance team for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason changes in build time are stuff like 3 seconds in SC2 is because in SC you deal with many, many, small units. Small changes like that in SC make a big difference when you're building 50+ Marines. NS2 is going to take bigger changes to balance because, gameplay wise, it's nothing like SC2.
<!--quoteo(post=2027271:date=Nov 17 2012, 06:48 PM:name=digitalpacman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (digitalpacman @ Nov 17 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you seen their released stats? Overall it's like 2-3% from 50-50 win/loss
Maybe you are just bad at it and your team suffers because of it? Bad luck?
I think it's really balanced, and the game changes as the game goes on.
While marines get upgrades, aliens don't get increased damage. They get carapace but that doesn't do much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2027312:date=Nov 17 2012, 04:49 PM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Nov 17 2012, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you seen the stats since 229 came out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've well made your point you think things are horrifyingly unbalanced now, and fortunately that's nothing more than your opinion. Its as if you didn't play the Aliens at all in 228, because while it was balanced it was rarely fun, and significantly lacking in tactics for the Alien team. Competitive alone demonstrated what fights boiled down to, not because it was the easiest option but because its the only option.
The NS2stats doesn't even look that different from build 228, Aliens had an insignificant lead there, now it's grown by another insignificant amount. The only thing build 229 has effectively done is forced marine-lovers to stomp onto the forums to complain about the buff to crag hives. While it is somewhat absurd that certain setups can cause the onos to regenerate faster than you can kill them, I'm surprised such changes were made without fixing the ability to land an onos on the field so early. This buff to regeneration sounds fantastic for alien hives and lesser alien evolutions because it's actually useful for hit and run tactics and discourages marines from rambo sniping hives. Before this carapace was generally a landslide decision since it was simply better to survive more damage and heal back at your hive unless you wanted to wait minutes for regeneration to put you back together. But the onos didn't need to benefit from it by such a significant amount, or at least not as long as its so easy to get an onos on the field through tres.
As it stands, marine weapons are still devastating to Aliens. By the time Aliens can regenerate so effectively with crag mini-bases the marines should already be at weapons 3 and have plenty of toys to play with, you can still kill aliens faster than they can regenerate, and if there are crag structures nearby then flamethrowers and grenade launchers are still highly effective. I got locked up on adrenaline as an onos during one match because of flamethrowers draining me until I was unable to attack or even run.
I've stopped playing Marines for this patch. There's really not much point. I've found that if the Marines don't have an overly significant footing in the map 20 minutes in(or at least continue denying the Aliens the res needed to go Onos), they've lost no matter what they do. The Onos is already far too strong for its own good, and now you're coupling it with an ungodly amount of regeneration. It has the most health and armor by far, it runs just as fast as any other alien unit, it hits the hardest, and it can stun anyone within a 20 foot radius seemingly(and jumping either doesn't work at all or isn't intuitive with what you're seeing in terms of the model animation). I know the Onos thing has been beaten to death but it really doesn't have a weakness, at all.
The Marine siege weapon on the other hand is ungodly slow, can't be recalled back to base via beacon, can't regenerate itself(which makes soloing highly undesirable), and thus you never really see more than 2 or 3 on the field at the same time(probably in fear of a lack of man-power and utter res waste if a base gets attacked that triggers a beacon and you've then got stranded Exos out there without welding support AND a lack of troops responding to a big attack, not to mention the more Exos there are the less welders there are to support them). The limitations/weaknesses of the Exos is a clever way to prevent Marines from spamming them, it's a massive risk to do so. The Onos on the other hand, as long as you have that one Gorge or two that you've had all game, everyone else can go Onos without a care in the world. I don't like the idea of a hard cap of how many Oni can be on the field at one time... that's the lazy way of preventing that. Again, the limitations of the Exosuit brings about a brilliant sense of caution and the cap on how many you'll see on the field is totally natural and not forced artificially.
<!--quoteo(post=2027605:date=Nov 18 2012, 01:54 AM:name=BearTornado)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BearTornado @ Nov 18 2012, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've well made your point you think things are horrifyingly unbalanced now, and fortunately that's nothing more than your opinion. Its as if you didn't play the Aliens at all in 228, because while it was balanced it was rarely fun, and significantly lacking in tactics for the Alien team. Competitive alone demonstrated what fights boiled down to, not because it was the easiest option but because its the only option.
The NS2stats doesn't even look that different from build 228, Aliens had an insignificant lead there, now it's grown by another insignificant amount. The only thing build 229 has effectively done is forced marine-lovers to stomp onto the forums to complain about the buff to crag hives. While it is somewhat absurd that certain setups can cause the onos to regenerate faster than you can kill them, I'm surprised such changes were made without fixing the ability to land an onos on the field so early. This buff to regeneration sounds fantastic for alien hives and lesser alien evolutions because it's actually useful for hit and run tactics and discourages marines from rambo sniping hives. Before this carapace was generally a landslide decision since it was simply better to survive more damage and heal back at your hive unless you wanted to wait minutes for regeneration to put you back together. But the onos didn't need to benefit from it by such a significant amount, or at least not as long as its so easy to get an onos on the field through tres.
As it stands, marine weapons are still devastating to Aliens. By the time Aliens can regenerate so effectively with crag mini-bases the marines should already be at weapons 3 and have plenty of toys to play with, you can still kill aliens faster than they can regenerate, and if there are crag structures nearby then flamethrowers and grenade launchers are still highly effective. I got locked up on adrenaline as an onos during one match because of flamethrowers draining me until I was unable to attack or even run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet, all that prose above is also nothing more than your own opinion, which I think is again disrespectful since you are ignoring the reasoned and considered, gameplay-based, experiences of so many posters here and even more people who chat in-game and don't bother to come here to write.
I played both sides in 228 and loved the experience. Whether my team won or lost, I had fun and felt like we had a chance whichever race we were.
As it stands today the only way to win as marines is to relentlessly attack all the alien res nodes and deny them even a second hive. While this is possible with a competent commander and some dedicated foot-soldiers, you really aren't going to get that level of team play in pub servers, especially since there are so many rookies about. Using the above formula my marine side won one out of 5 games I played in a row.
The thing is, this isn't just my opinion but also my actual experience. And what is important is that I'm not alone writing about alien favored game in 229. As it stands, aliens can just cruise to victory while clan-level performance is required from a marine team. This just isn't going to happen.
And while a lone marine could have killed a hive in 228, that would only happen if aliens were too incompetent to send one or two skulks down there to defend.
I will say again, in 228 it felt like either side could win. In 229 the default outcome for any game is alien victory, unless the aliens don't get any res towers up or any upgrades -- and as I found out yesterday, even at the 15min mark with a noob alien commander, aliens can still win if someone with half a clue takes over command.
If they hadn't messed up balance and kept gameplay like 228 as I have said from day 2 of 229 release, everyone would have had a chance to improve their skills for both sides and the game would have really improved.
The consensus is that the game is broken now, and needs fixing ASAP. I think the devs have also accepted this (I refer to a post by Flayra in one of the threads regarding this: "I'm not playing till aliens are fixed" or something).
Am I the only one who sadistically loves it when the balance goes askew?? I love when Aliens are OP and I'm a marines, running for my life in the dark corridors. Obviously it gets a little boring in the end but you've gotta play the game and just have faith that they'll fix it ;-)
However can we have the following please:
1) Flamethrower that ignites the entire map 2) Cyst that covers everything on the map with infestation (e.g. covers marines, air, space, voids and EVERYTHING.....)
Then the balance will truly be perfect!
p.s. I lurve you UWE!! :D
p.p.s. Hugh, I almost forgive you for abandoning Australia ;-)
Comments
It's not.
I guess none of them realize that axing each Cyst is a horrible move. Good Marines will just kill one, maybe two cysts, and take out half the map.
I use this example to illustrate that most Marines players are, quite simply, terrible. They're easily distracted, easy to find, and have zero situation awareness.
With a team like that, you won't win. The best commander in the world couldn't forge such a team into an effective fighting force.
The saddest thing? They don't even realize how big of a mistake they're making most of the time, and either no one tells them to stop or the individual doesn't listen. They often times don't even notice that I'm rebuilding cysts behind them as they go.
The game is relatively balanced when people have a clue. It's impossible to balance around the clueless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A team of idiots can win as aliens. Same can't be said for marines.
What every review of NS2 since release through 228 said was THEY NAILED ASYMMETRIC WARFARE PERFECTLY. This is what I also found most striking since launch. It was great, and I was all praise for how they managed to do it.
Then 229 came out and blew that to smithereens.
Maybe that ridiculous first Gamespot review was oddly prescient afterall...
Back in 228 I was lamenting my failure to purchase the beta and get the cool black armor (though it looks like some polyester in some angles). Now I'm thankful I didn't fork out $40 or whatever for it. Because if I had, I'd be so incredibly irritated for having paid so much back then for the piffle that would result in 229.
Have you even bothered to read what people are writing? It isn't a "few" games. It's the majority of games. And most of these threads and posts actually have considered opinions backed by personal experience. Please stop the fanboyism and take into account that not everyone has the same gameplay experience as you. In fact, it looks like the majority of the community are very upset about the recent alien buffs, and there are stats to prove it.
Don't you think it's odd that all these threads appeared AFTER 229? And by people who had no such problems BEFORE 229?
Please think a little harder before dismissing people's comments.
Thanks :)
Thanks :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I read. I think. I compare to my own experiences. And I conclude that OP must have gotten stuck with a bad team/comm for a few games in a row.
There's no need to call me a fanboy (although technically I am a fan). I see the good and the bad in this game. Yes, there are some alien buffs this build that need some attention, and I hate the early onos as much as anyone, but it's ridiculous how much of these "game is unbalanced!" threads are just poorly argumented rants. OP is claiming he has yet to win a game as marines, with I think is a either a preposterous claim or just an unusual long series of bad luck. Why do I think that? Because I've seen marines win plenty, and because they can expand much quicker than aliens if the team is any good.
Also, don't speak for the majority of the community.
go where u like, do what u want and still win with Onos spam
play as marine:
play perfect teamwork or face Onos spam stomping your base.
go where u like, do what u want and still win with Onos spam
play as marine:
play perfect teamwork or face Onos spam stomping your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a gross oversimplification. Aliens might require less teamwork than marines, but you still have to watch the minimap, defend vital res nodes and your hives, harass enemy res nodes, etc. You can't just do what you want and still win.
There are issues that need to be addressed, yet as far as my research into the subject goes, they ARE being looked at. A patch is in the works, and while it may not IMMEDIATELY and IRREVOCABLY address all your issues, it is a step forward. Many of these steps are yet to be taken, but they are inevitable. Your concerns are founded, but it's not the end of the world! If you find yourself getting killed by an early onos, grow a mustache, harden the **** up, and chase that ###### down. Chase him with all the rabid, suicidal energy you (######) chase a gorge with, and then find the aliens gimped of Tres.
The greatest difficulty of balancing asymmetric games is that there is always going to be some smart-arse somewhere who figures out a game winner, and abuses it. This is human nature, to probe and to analyse, and to find loopholes. UWE can never prevent it, only fix it afterwards.
Perhaps what is needed isn't for everyone to come here and complain about it, but to get in the damn game and develop some ######ly stratagems against it.
For UWE, thanks for the great game. I thoroughly enjoy it.
There are issues that need to be addressed, yet as far as my research into the subject goes, they ARE being looked at. A patch is in the works, and while it may not IMMEDIATELY and IRREVOCABLY address all your issues, it is a step forward. Many of these steps are yet to be taken, but they are inevitable. Your concerns are founded, but it's not the end of the world! If you find yourself getting killed by an early onos, grow a mustache, harden the **** up, and chase that ###### down. Chase him with all the rabid, suicidal energy you (######) chase a gorge with, and then find the aliens gimped of Tres.
The greatest difficulty of balancing asymmetric games is that there is always going to be some smart-arse somewhere who figures out a game winner, and abuses it. This is human nature, to probe and to analyse, and to find loopholes. UWE can never prevent it, only fix it afterwards.
Perhaps what is needed isn't for everyone to come here and complain about it, but to get in the damn game and develop some ######ly stratagems against it.
For UWE, thanks for the great game. I thoroughly enjoy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice little PR piece. wink wink
Now please tell me how marines can possibly stand up to 6 min onos.
Or maybe your mustached mouth can tell me why we would need to chase an onos when he doesn't run away anymore... remember, they regen while being shot at now. Furthermore, if a noob onos doesn't have regen and runs, please tell me how to kill him after chasing him when he stops round a corner at the alien forward base, equipped with unlimited whips and two crags and a shade. Tell me please how easy that is.
Thanks :)
The difference being that Starcraft isn't asymmetrical, and therefore doesn't face balance challenges anywhere near the kind NS2 does. Everybody plays the game in the exact same way, the things they click on just happen to look a little different. Ask yourself what the profound game changing assymetrical differences there are between a zergling and a zealout. Protip: there aren't any. Its basically just a reskin.
higher league players would disagree with you here.... just ask them about the balance between each matchup....
<!--quoteo(post=2026844:date=Nov 17 2012, 09:28 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 17 2012, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ask yourself what the profound game changing assymetrical differences there are between a zergling and a zealout. Protip: there aren't any. Its basically just a reskin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:/
Actually its the other way around. Marines can recycle and the spawn mechanism makes it incredibly difficult for aliens to snipe off upgrade buildings. Onotp of that you can have instant travel to any important part of the map (PGs) and your res towers (and buildings in general) are not dependant on a massive expensive vulgnerable chain of cysts. Aliens are the ones who get screwed by losing 1 harvester not marines....
I've often give marines orders, sometimes even with ingame voice and they completely ignore it, do their own thing or are just bad players because they are new to the game.
I set up a second Commandstation, phasegate and armory and all they do is running around the map and not defending it even when i say so...
and then i get flamed why i didn't built any sentrys :(
Whereas as Kharmmander you skulks can simply run around the map and harass the marines when you are building up everything you need.
Also the marines tend to turtle and be defensive. this is good in several situations (for example when you have not so good players or being rushed very hard) but most of the time marines need to rush right from the start so the aliens don't get mapcontrol.
People need to learn how the game works, that marines need to rush, need to defend the extractors and be more communicative, then everything goes right ;)
Well said!
QFT
Which team is it unbalanced towards in competitive play?
The reason changes in build time are stuff like 3 seconds in SC2 is because in SC you deal with many, many, small units. Small changes like that in SC make a big difference when you're building 50+ Marines. NS2 is going to take bigger changes to balance because, gameplay wise, it's nothing like SC2.
Maybe you are just bad at it and your team suffers because of it? Bad luck?
I think it's really balanced, and the game changes as the game goes on.
While marines get upgrades, aliens don't get increased damage. They get carapace but that doesn't do much.
Maybe you are just bad at it and your team suffers because of it? Bad luck?
I think it's really balanced, and the game changes as the game goes on.
While marines get upgrades, aliens don't get increased damage. They get carapace but that doesn't do much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you seen the stats since 229 came out?
You've well made your point you think things are horrifyingly unbalanced now, and fortunately that's nothing more than your opinion. Its as if you didn't play the Aliens at all in 228, because while it was balanced it was rarely fun, and significantly lacking in tactics for the Alien team. Competitive alone demonstrated what fights boiled down to, not because it was the easiest option but because its the only option.
The NS2stats doesn't even look that different from build 228, Aliens had an insignificant lead there, now it's grown by another insignificant amount. The only thing build 229 has effectively done is forced marine-lovers to stomp onto the forums to complain about the buff to crag hives. While it is somewhat absurd that certain setups can cause the onos to regenerate faster than you can kill them, I'm surprised such changes were made without fixing the ability to land an onos on the field so early. This buff to regeneration sounds fantastic for alien hives and lesser alien evolutions because it's actually useful for hit and run tactics and discourages marines from rambo sniping hives. Before this carapace was generally a landslide decision since it was simply better to survive more damage and heal back at your hive unless you wanted to wait minutes for regeneration to put you back together. But the onos didn't need to benefit from it by such a significant amount, or at least not as long as its so easy to get an onos on the field through tres.
As it stands, marine weapons are still devastating to Aliens. By the time Aliens can regenerate so effectively with crag mini-bases the marines should already be at weapons 3 and have plenty of toys to play with, you can still kill aliens faster than they can regenerate, and if there are crag structures nearby then flamethrowers and grenade launchers are still highly effective. I got locked up on adrenaline as an onos during one match because of flamethrowers draining me until I was unable to attack or even run.
The Marine siege weapon on the other hand is ungodly slow, can't be recalled back to base via beacon, can't regenerate itself(which makes soloing highly undesirable), and thus you never really see more than 2 or 3 on the field at the same time(probably in fear of a lack of man-power and utter res waste if a base gets attacked that triggers a beacon and you've then got stranded Exos out there without welding support AND a lack of troops responding to a big attack, not to mention the more Exos there are the less welders there are to support them). The limitations/weaknesses of the Exos is a clever way to prevent Marines from spamming them, it's a massive risk to do so. The Onos on the other hand, as long as you have that one Gorge or two that you've had all game, everyone else can go Onos without a care in the world. I don't like the idea of a hard cap of how many Oni can be on the field at one time... that's the lazy way of preventing that. Again, the limitations of the Exosuit brings about a brilliant sense of caution and the cap on how many you'll see on the field is totally natural and not forced artificially.
The NS2stats doesn't even look that different from build 228, Aliens had an insignificant lead there, now it's grown by another insignificant amount. The only thing build 229 has effectively done is forced marine-lovers to stomp onto the forums to complain about the buff to crag hives. While it is somewhat absurd that certain setups can cause the onos to regenerate faster than you can kill them, I'm surprised such changes were made without fixing the ability to land an onos on the field so early. This buff to regeneration sounds fantastic for alien hives and lesser alien evolutions because it's actually useful for hit and run tactics and discourages marines from rambo sniping hives. Before this carapace was generally a landslide decision since it was simply better to survive more damage and heal back at your hive unless you wanted to wait minutes for regeneration to put you back together. But the onos didn't need to benefit from it by such a significant amount, or at least not as long as its so easy to get an onos on the field through tres.
As it stands, marine weapons are still devastating to Aliens. By the time Aliens can regenerate so effectively with crag mini-bases the marines should already be at weapons 3 and have plenty of toys to play with, you can still kill aliens faster than they can regenerate, and if there are crag structures nearby then flamethrowers and grenade launchers are still highly effective. I got locked up on adrenaline as an onos during one match because of flamethrowers draining me until I was unable to attack or even run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet, all that prose above is also nothing more than your own opinion, which I think is again disrespectful since you are ignoring the reasoned and considered, gameplay-based, experiences of so many posters here and even more people who chat in-game and don't bother to come here to write.
I played both sides in 228 and loved the experience. Whether my team won or lost, I had fun and felt like we had a chance whichever race we were.
As it stands today the only way to win as marines is to relentlessly attack all the alien res nodes and deny them even a second hive. While this is possible with a competent commander and some dedicated foot-soldiers, you really aren't going to get that level of team play in pub servers, especially since there are so many rookies about. Using the above formula my marine side won one out of 5 games I played in a row.
The thing is, this isn't just my opinion but also my actual experience. And what is important is that I'm not alone writing about alien favored game in 229. As it stands, aliens can just cruise to victory while clan-level performance is required from a marine team. This just isn't going to happen.
And while a lone marine could have killed a hive in 228, that would only happen if aliens were too incompetent to send one or two skulks down there to defend.
I will say again, in 228 it felt like either side could win. In 229 the default outcome for any game is alien victory, unless the aliens don't get any res towers up or any upgrades -- and as I found out yesterday, even at the 15min mark with a noob alien commander, aliens can still win if someone with half a clue takes over command.
If they hadn't messed up balance and kept gameplay like 228 as I have said from day 2 of 229 release, everyone would have had a chance to improve their skills for both sides and the game would have really improved.
The consensus is that the game is broken now, and needs fixing ASAP. I think the devs have also accepted this (I refer to a post by Flayra in one of the threads regarding this: "I'm not playing till aliens are fixed" or something).
However can we have the following please:
1) Flamethrower that ignites the entire map
2) Cyst that covers everything on the map with infestation (e.g. covers marines, air, space, voids and EVERYTHING.....)
Then the balance will truly be perfect!
p.s. I lurve you UWE!! :D
p.p.s. Hugh, I almost forgive you for abandoning Australia ;-)