Is it even possible to balance anymore?
hsdg112718
Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171897Members
Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171897Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Seriously, do indies know what balance is?</div>I've yet to play a game where Marines have won. The Alien team is either stacked or the Marines just can't move at the same rate as Aliens do. Cysts are so preposterously quick to spread infestation that Aliens can own 80% of a map by the time the Marines get a second command chair set up. And of course, said Aliens will always down that second chair because they have Onos as early as ten minutes into the game. Is the game made to be this unplayable as the Marines by design because having access to different weapons makes them "better" at some point or did these limey ###### just not manage to get a good amount of balance down?
Or is this all my fault because my team is always populated by the worst players, bar none, and they often drop out of command without notice just as we secure a second room. Are there solutions in development to make this playable as Marines or am I death-threating someone into getting a refund?
Or is this all my fault because my team is always populated by the worst players, bar none, and they often drop out of command without notice just as we secure a second room. Are there solutions in development to make this playable as Marines or am I death-threating someone into getting a refund?
Comments
I've played 3 games today.
2 times as marines and 1 time as aliens.
I did win 2 times as marines and 1 time as aliens.
Though I did put the most pressure on aliens by axing their harvesters and rushing their hive with jetpacks.... like you should do 24/7 .
I don't really see much problems, beside regeneration actually being useful and no need to spend 300 tres to create a healing zone with crags.
Also, camo isn't anymore "OMG... COMM, WHY WOULD YOU RESEARCH THAT CRAP?!".
So sorry my good OP friend.
I don't find any major balance issues.
Have I forgot to mention, that marines actually expand way faster than aliens?
Try losing harvesters as Khammander... It's way more annoying than for rine comm. (It builds waaaaaaaay longer without gorgey nearby and dies faster than extractor).
EDIT:
Just to make sure,
6-10 min onos was before that too...
It's valid tactic and I've seen many early pub onoses go down very fast, so no problem with that.
I've played 3 games today.
2 times as marines and 1 time as aliens.
I did win 2 times as marines and 1 time as aliens.
Though I did put the most pressure on aliens by axing their harvesters and rushing their hive with jetpacks.... like you should do 24/7 .
I don't really see much problems, beside regeneration actually being useful and no need to spend 300 tres to create a healing zone with crags.
Also, camo isn't anymore "OMG... COMM, WHY WOULD YOU RESEARCH THAT CRAP?!".
So sorry my good OP friend.
I don't find any major balance issues.
Have I forgot to mention, that marines actually expand way faster than aliens?
Try losing harvesters as Khammander... It's way more annoying than for rine comm. (It builds waaaaaaaay longer without gorgey nearby and dies faster than extractor).
EDIT:
Just to make sure,
6-10 min onos was before that too...
It's valid tactic and I've seen many early pub onoses go down very fast, so no problem with that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with Jetpakcs is I haven't seen a second chair go up in any Marine game I've played yet. It's either a failing of the commander, a total lack of a commander or the complete inability to keep more than one Marine in the same room at once to build it. And Aliens expand way faster, I don't know what crap you're smoking. They can place Cysts for almost nothing and anything they place on Infection builds up in no time at all. Three Crags around every single corner is a pretty huge deal when Aliens can effectively set up a forward base anywhere at a moment's notice. Marines have got absolutely nothing over Aliens except things that require more than one Station. Aliens can get Onos with only one Hive if they really want. Alien buildings skipping the entire ghost-building phase gives them an advantage that Marines can never overcome. They can literally just spam cysts near Marine buildings once they get far enough with them and let the infestation tick down building health. The only downside to playing Aliens is that you might not be good with Skulk, and they start with enough points to go Gorge at the start of every match.
It's BS. I didn't pay to play a slower version of Tribes Ascend.
i lost a game earlier as marine when i had 45 kills 9 deaths... the next guy in the server on EITHER TEAM had 16 kills, then a few guys had 15 and less.
Q: why did i lose?
A: my team f'king sucked
Or they MUST armory block before the onos gg's them. I feel like if you don't armory block, that single onos will steamroll through your spawn. There will be no endgame tug of war without an armory block, which not all pub comm's know. No armory block = no 2nd chair = prepare to be gg'd by the slowly emerging Onos train.
Which has lead to alot more alien victories in 229, ( in my personal subjective experience ).
I guess none of them realize that axing each Cyst is a horrible move. Good Marines will just kill one, maybe two cysts, and take out half the map.
I use this example to illustrate that most Marines players are, quite simply, terrible. They're easily distracted, easy to find, and have zero situation awareness.
With a team like that, you won't win. The best commander in the world couldn't forge such a team into an effective fighting force.
The saddest thing? They don't even realize how big of a mistake they're making most of the time, and either no one tells them to stop or the individual doesn't listen. They often times don't even notice that I'm rebuilding cysts behind them as they go.
The game is relatively balanced when people have a clue. It's impossible to balance around the clueless.
Community: OMG Y U NOT NO HOW TO BALANCE?!?!?!?!1/1/1
Seriously, guys. They've got bigger priorities right now.
Basically, your post is a slightly more intelligent version of "you are a noob. Therefore, you have no say in whether this game is balanced or not."
But to answer your physiological claim, I would suggest these are possibly the greater errors most players are making: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy</a> ; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect</a> (aside from the statistical skew that you can see on <a href="http://ns2stats.org/" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/</a> ).
Note, despite Wiki's simplistic description of the Halo effect, it is used beyond simple character judgement. False attributions on anything can be described through the Halo effect. i.e. Aliens win every round.
Thank you for that. I know you meant it as an insult, but it's still an interesting read none the less.
Community: OMG Y U NOT NO HOW TO BALANCE?!?!?!?!1/1/1
Seriously, guys. They've got bigger priorities right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fixed for you. Using crag and camo change as an example here.
QFT.
NS2 is actually remarkably well balanced (well, ok, the current build is a bit wonky, but the devs have acknowledged this).
<ul><li>No marine comm from very start</li><li>Marine comm is new to game</li><li>Marines don't properly expand and control resources</li><li>Marines don't challenge kharaa held resources</li><li>Too many marines run off alone to die</li></ul>
What things are not causing marine losses?
<ul><li>Unbalanced teams (Marines almost always have the 'extra man')</li><li>Team stacking (there is no way ALL of these games are stacked)</li><li>Lack of sufficient 'tools' to win</li></ul>
There are only two things in the game that I would like to see addressed.
<ul><li>I'd like to see electrified res nodes. (which can be killed by taking down the power node first) It's far too easy for fast solo kharaa to own the map. </li><li>I'd also like a little more forgiveness in how marines can tech up to a win. As it stands I hear people saying that if we don't (insert tech progression here) then we'll lose for sure. Marines need to have a bit more forgiveness in how the comm decides to upgrade.</li></ul>
Part of the 'problem' (although it's not really a problem) is that Marines are meant to be played with a higher level of teamwork than kharaa. Players from other games used to doing whatever they want and running off solo only cripple the Marine team. I've also mentioned this before, and I would love to have some 'incentive' for Marines to stick together.
Overall, the biggest thing to remember is that the game is barely 2 weeks old. Give people some time to get up to speed before we start making sweeping generalizations.
I think a knee-jerk nerf to kharaa would be a bad idea.
NS2 is actually remarkably well balanced (well, ok, the current build is a bit wonky, but the devs have acknowledged this).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, the best methodology for balancing a game as complex as this is with small changes, like using a chisel to carve out the perfect statue. Just look at SC2 for example, in the first beta there were changes like an increase of 3 seconds in marine build time, and something like the slight queen range increase changed the metagame completely at a high level. I think the key to NS2 is taking a lot more thought in balance changes like having it go through a balance team for example.
Ah, perhaps you arent aware that a new build has just been released, with different balance issues, causing the "mob" to change their opinions, based on the new version.
When the occasional marine or two slips thru alien defenses and starts hacking down rt's and cysts, it's no longer a jolly ride to 2nd hive Onos for aliens.
If you have +5 rt's, then it's okay to kick back and relax while waiting for those upgrades to start rolling. But until then you should be sprint-247 aggressive.
In pubs though marines just seem too unforgiving. I've played this game for about 25 hours and have only seen the marines win maybe 5 times in total. Try and try as you might, but the aliens just win every. single. game.
its difficult to be a good skulk vs a good marine with a shotgun.
you see alot more good marine players than you do alien players tbh.
Aliens have the advantage of a quick start but if the marines play smart and use phase gates strategically they ccan take the lead rather easily. As the marines you shouldnyt be traveling on your own.
in my experience i would say its fairly even, aliens win abit more but i have been a part of some great marine wins on public.
Just to make sure,
6-10 min onos was before that too...
It's valid tactic and I've seen many early pub onoses go down very fast, so no problem with that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be a valid build but right now it is the 1 opener that anyone can do to win if their team isn't really bad. This might not sound so bad but consider that a marine team can do everything right and still lose to an alien team that is doing everything right. The issue isn't that marines can't win (they can, when the aliens aren't good) the issue is that when there are even, competent teams the game is unbalanced in favour of the aliens. It is really unhealthy for the game. Frankly, with the regen changes this patch things are stacked even more in their favour.
I couldn't even get on the Alien Team because it was full, so I just went marines.
And we effectively curbstomped the Aliens. We didn't even bother with exos or all of the weapons, we controlled 4/5 command stations on the map without even building bases at all of them, we just kept the Aliens out of them and put up phase gates at each one. We finished the match with a few ARCs, and some jetpack marines with grenade launchers. I don't even think we got through all of the Armor/Weapon upgrades. The Alien team likely wasn't as competent as some other teams I've fought against/played with, but in landslide games like that it comes down to the skill of the team, the game isn't that unbalanced as it is.
Stopped reading there. You really didn't bother to put much thought into this.
Did you play the previous patch? It was hardly in the favor of the aliens, so bad to the point that the aliens had to rely entirely on the onos to end a match and combat the marine turtle because mid-late game marines are far more effective at combat than the other Alien evolutions are, and at far less pres costs.
And then this patch comes out and Aliens are suddenly tougher to kill. That just means the skill floor for pub marines to deal with pub aliens has been raised. Now you might have to kill crags before killing hives, you'll have to improve your aim a little more. It hasn't changed the fact that, by the nature of how the Alien team fights, they will always face greater potential punishments for making mistakes (in terms of direct combat) than marines will.
Or is this all my fault because my team is always populated by the worst players, bar none, and they often drop out of command without notice just as we secure a second room. Are there solutions in development to make this playable as Marines or am I death-threating someone into getting a refund?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->do indies know what balance is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey there mr pot. That kettle sure looks black, don't it?
Cause those databases of game data UWE has been collecting and analyzing for the last 2 weeks since the release of this game are sure a lot less reliable than the 4 games you've played.