Do TRes Weapon/Lifeform drops belong in the game?
Zek
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Disclaimer: This thread isn't for arguing current game balance or complaining about early Onos, although that is the most prevalent problem with TRes drops right now. This is a discussion about whether or not that system is worth fixing, or if the game would be better off if it was scrapped.
I feel that philosophically the idea of the commander being able to spend his own TRes to drop weapons/lifeforms is a flawed one, and does not belong in NS2. From the very start of the alpha the design of the res model has been clear: resources were split into Team and Personal pools so that the game would scale relatively evenly to any player count. Placing all the functionality of PRes back into TRes again undermines that and effectively reverts things right back to how they were in NS1: a supply of weapons/lifeforms that is tied to a static pool of res, and is disproportionately more powerful the smaller the team.
Basically I think this system creates a number of problems:
- Difficult-to-balance implications depending on team size. See the power of the fast Onos in competitive games with their small teams. The res value of turning 1/6 of your team into an Onos is huge compared to the value of structures and most upgrades/abilities. If Onos egg drops were nerfed/delayed the same would be true of Fade egg drops, etc.
- Impacts balance decisions in negative ways for PRes spenders. Logically, given that TRes drops increase the availability of weapons/lifeforms, and we don't want the game to be flooded with powerful units, PRes income has to be slower to compensate. That makes the game less fun for most players and results in a further regression towards the NS1 way of doing things(which I would argue has already happened).
- Forces the comm to make unfun decisions with his money. Does he spend his res doing fun stuff like active abilities and building structures/ARCs/etc, or does he hand it all out to his team and twiddle his thumbs? If the alien comm knows that the most effective strategy at a given time is to save up 75 res for an Onos, that's quite a lot of time where he literally can't do anything else. Every time he wants to throw down a Crag somewhere he has to think "is this really worth delaying that Onos?". Tough decisions are only a good thing when both choices are equally fun.
- Messes up the delicate balance of lifeform appearance timing. We all know this one. Marines are less affected because all their tech is locked behind upgrades, and most of it isn't expensive, but the Onos is available to the first person who hits 75 res, which incidentally is always the commander.
I feel that the ability for the commander to spend his TRes on weapons/lifeforms should be removed, the sooner the better, and the game should be balanced around its removal as necessary. Does anybody else feel the same way? I'd like to make the community's stance on this clear before it goes any further since I think it's a big decision with a lot of repercussions that will require more work to change the more the game is balanced around it.
I feel that philosophically the idea of the commander being able to spend his own TRes to drop weapons/lifeforms is a flawed one, and does not belong in NS2. From the very start of the alpha the design of the res model has been clear: resources were split into Team and Personal pools so that the game would scale relatively evenly to any player count. Placing all the functionality of PRes back into TRes again undermines that and effectively reverts things right back to how they were in NS1: a supply of weapons/lifeforms that is tied to a static pool of res, and is disproportionately more powerful the smaller the team.
Basically I think this system creates a number of problems:
- Difficult-to-balance implications depending on team size. See the power of the fast Onos in competitive games with their small teams. The res value of turning 1/6 of your team into an Onos is huge compared to the value of structures and most upgrades/abilities. If Onos egg drops were nerfed/delayed the same would be true of Fade egg drops, etc.
- Impacts balance decisions in negative ways for PRes spenders. Logically, given that TRes drops increase the availability of weapons/lifeforms, and we don't want the game to be flooded with powerful units, PRes income has to be slower to compensate. That makes the game less fun for most players and results in a further regression towards the NS1 way of doing things(which I would argue has already happened).
- Forces the comm to make unfun decisions with his money. Does he spend his res doing fun stuff like active abilities and building structures/ARCs/etc, or does he hand it all out to his team and twiddle his thumbs? If the alien comm knows that the most effective strategy at a given time is to save up 75 res for an Onos, that's quite a lot of time where he literally can't do anything else. Every time he wants to throw down a Crag somewhere he has to think "is this really worth delaying that Onos?". Tough decisions are only a good thing when both choices are equally fun.
- Messes up the delicate balance of lifeform appearance timing. We all know this one. Marines are less affected because all their tech is locked behind upgrades, and most of it isn't expensive, but the Onos is available to the first person who hits 75 res, which incidentally is always the commander.
I feel that the ability for the commander to spend his TRes on weapons/lifeforms should be removed, the sooner the better, and the game should be balanced around its removal as necessary. Does anybody else feel the same way? I'd like to make the community's stance on this clear before it goes any further since I think it's a big decision with a lot of repercussions that will require more work to change the more the game is balanced around it.
Comments
At the very least UWE needs to stick with <b>something</b>. Either pure tres system with equipment/lifeform drops, or pres/tres separation not only in name but function.
As for the idea I think it could work out pretty nice, it would let the commander focus more on supporting the team, too. Might need to keep an eye out for support ability spam becoming too excessive though with the commander being able to manage his attention better and having the resources to use those abilities more freely.
<!--quoteo(post=2023443:date=Nov 14 2012, 03:08 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Nov 14 2012, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it should be a late game upgrade, when you control the map and your gunna win anyway and you're flowing with tres from 5+ RT's. Then you should be able to upgrade but must have 3 CC/Hives to do soo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I see with that is it creates the dynamic that some poorer RTS games have where "Once you start winning, its over", many RTS games, you can call the winner within the first 3-5 minutes of gameplay and the rest is just a timekiller. As it stands, one team can be winning in NS2, then suddenly, they are losing. If you put something like this in it muddies the terrain a lot for the other team to have a chance at coming back.
Suppose the comm had the ability to reduce the cost of certain lifeforms by researching at the hive. Once per hive you could spend 20 resources, and reduce the cost of one type of lifeform by 5 resources. So after two hives, spend 40tres for free gorges, or 20 pres lerks, or 30 pres fades.
This would open up a lot of strategic possibilities to focus on lifeforms instead of upgrades, but scales with team size properly, and isn't as crazy high risk as dropping an expensive egg.
What value do they add to the game? Supposedly strategic depth but I think actually the opposite. Makes lifeform timings near impossible to predict and in smaller games will always be imbalanced. If they nerf the fast onos, I foresee multiple fast fades to be just around the corner. There is basically never going to be a time when its better to build stuff like crags/shades/whips then to save for lifeforms.
In exchange I would be OK with the commander gaining Pres.
I really like who the comm has the option to use his tRes for lifeforms, I just think it currently needs more tweaking.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is basically never going to be a time when its better to build stuff like crags/shades/whips then to save for lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say the problem is then, that the other path are viable enough and need improvement, not the other way around.
<!--quoteo(post=2023514:date=Nov 14 2012, 01:55 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Nov 14 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Tres for lifeforms is a must have in order to break stalemates and reward map control in long drawn out games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First sentence of the thread is how this thread is not about balance. There's plenty of ways to deal with stalemates, and map control gives plenty of Pres for lifeforms on its own.
A way to preserve the ability to dump tres into helping players would be to implement a way for the comm/khamm to convert 10 tres into N pres <i> for each player </i>. That way the scaling is preserved.
Suppose the comm had the ability to reduce the cost of certain lifeforms by researching at the hive. Once per hive you could spend 20 resources, and reduce the cost of one type of lifeform by 5 resources. So after two hives, spend 40tres for free gorges, or 20 pres lerks, or 30 pres fades.
This would open up a lot of strategic possibilities to focus on lifeforms instead of upgrades, but scales with team size properly, and isn't as crazy high risk as dropping an expensive egg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can already pretty much influence which lifeforms people use by selecting certain chamber upgrades or T2 abilities to research. I think having tech that reduces pres costs would honestly be a nightmare to balance.
edit: also another core issue with NS2 is the lack of scaling; perhaps with proper scaling introduced then t-res drops might not become as large of an issue
However I do agree that lifeform drops don't scale well...but again, I think thats a problem with the comm's non-scaleable resource system. Lifeform drops are just the most obvious symptom on alien side. You still got things like medpacks, ammo, weapon/exo drops on marine side.
Lifeform drops could still be in the game if they weren't available at such crucial timings. 5-6 minute onos is faster than what players can get, and it makes it too difficult to pass up. However if onos drop was only available at 3 hive (or 2 mature hives), then by the time a comm can drop it, many players can probably already save enough to buy one. BUT I would only keep lifeform drops if commander had some form of scaled resource.
As is they are a problem, but with another layer of complexity it could work out quite well
I made a thread less than a week ago talking about <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124009&hl=" target="_blank">pushing "Mature" status further</a>
It's a very real way that a drop mechanic could stay in the game
If anything I'd like to see the mechanic expanded upon to allow gorges to use their pres to morph and egg for a teamate
Currently the drop system isn't even balanced since Marines cannot even drop a dual exo
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I agree with tres drops going against the grain of separating tres and pres, but at this point I don't think dropping it is the best idea, as the alien tech tree is lopsided and thus there are pretty linear paths for upgrade at the moment. Once there is a bit more diversity/balance there I think tres drops could be taken out.
I would be okay with the comm being able to translate his spare TRes into bonus PRes for all players. I still don't love it because I don't think the comm should feel pressured to do that when he really wants to spend it himself, and it still could create pacing issues, but at least it's easier to fine-tune. I definitely don't think we need to wait for a system like that to be ready before this one is removed though.
<!--quoteo(post=2023514:date=Nov 14 2012, 03:55 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Nov 14 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Tres for lifeforms is a must have in order to break stalemates and reward map control in long drawn out games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, there's no reason aliens can't break a base without TRes drops. They just need to be balanced for that. Map control is already rewarded with more res flow, which is where PRes comes from. Three hives, all the upgrades, tons of structures and lots of PRes should be more than enough to end the game, even if it often isn't right now.
<!--quoteo(post=2023622:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:18 PM:name=Toastie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toastie @ Nov 14 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, I think this is an important and well written post.
I agree with tres drops going against the grain of separating tres and pres, but at this point I don't think dropping it is the best idea, as the alien tech tree is lopsided and thus there are pretty linear paths for upgrade at the moment. Once there is a bit more diversity/balance there I think tres drops could be taken out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The early onos drop is by far the most linear and powerful tech tree path there is right now. Removing it could only benefit build variety. Personally I think the alien comm already has a bit too much research, he should be more focused on using structures in the field IMO. And as I mentioned, when making a big change like this it's better to do it while balance is still in flux than in the future when things have settled down and this would just disrupt everything again.
Do you spend tons and tons of res upgrading your base RT a lot, hoping that it's safe, or do you spend less res to spread the upgrades around and be at risk of losing them? Suddenly, the starting RT becomes a very tempting target for enemy raids.
Except commanders to acquire pres while commanding. You spend 20 minutes in the com chair on 6 res towers and hop out, you still only have 20 res. It's actually rather annoying. Sometimes i use the drop weapon to give myself a grenade launcher when i get out because otherwise i'll never be able to afford it unless the team doesn't mind being without a commander for a few moments, but then you're stuck with zero pres and there's also the problem that in pub games, other players like to jump into the chair. The amount of times i've been at a stalemate only for some scrub to hop into the chair whilst i jumped out to help the team fight off an onos and then lose map control isn't even funny. Sometimes you can kick them, but by then the damage is done.
Do you spend tons and tons of res upgrading your base RT a lot, hoping that it's safe, or do you spend less res to spread the upgrades around and be at risk of losing them? Suddenly, the starting RT becomes a very tempting target for enemy raids.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Income upgrades on RTs used to be in the game but they were removed. I could maybe see it being an active ability though, i.e. you toggle the RT to channel some/all of its TRes into additional PRes.