Fixes for skulks/aliens are pretty obvious and most are either already in the game or inferred:
Allow aliens to DO something while in the spawn queue - Pick hive to spawn at (defaults to closest or random hive if choosen hive destroyed) - Pick egg to spawn in (defaults to closest or random free egg if choosen egg destroyed) - Pick upgrades to spawn with (skulk only)
Also - Allow aliens to re-evolve to swap out upgrades (as in previous releases) - Allow hive teleport (maybe the new gorge tunnels?) - Allow focus or bring back frenzy - Make xenocide effective!
If UWE do ONE thing to make endgame skulks 1000x more effective, they simply need to buff xenocide to the efectiveness it was in NS1..
<!--quoteo(post=2020672:date=Nov 12 2012, 12:34 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 12 2012, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So to summarize:
- Skulk vs marine should be about 50% (+/- 10% maybe) : it's more fun, it's more fair. It should be so across skill level, player count, and possibly tech progression (not too sure about this one, because you might need "room" for higher lifeforms).
- In order to measure skulk vs marine one has to use balance teams, with different skill level, in controlled and well designed conditions. Personal anecdotes ("e.g. I can kill noob marines on this random server") are useless.
- Once the skulk vs marine is balanced the rest of the game can be changed accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
terrible idea. i guess you missed a good chunk of this thread.
in some situations, a skulk is 50/50 against a marine, or 20/80 or 80/20. if marines are fundamentally stronger, they will obviously strive to pressure the alien team into the position where the skulks will have a 20/80 against marines. ergo marine versus skulk isolated matchup is totally irrelevant.
balance talk should never come down to 'skulk needs to be more...'. until you can prove that alien is fundamentally weak and the only viable fix is improving the skulk. good luck with that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in some situations, a skulk is 50/50 against a marine, or 20/80 or 80/20.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you missed the part where I talk about "controlled and well designed conditions". As for having probability distribution instead of deterministic numbers, that's something educated people can handle without too much problems.
Whats amusing about xenocide is that it does the same damage as NS1, and probably has a larger effective radius. Theres a ton of other issues that prevent xenocide from actually being usefull however.
Skulk balance early game is more the issue here, hive teleport and xenocide and picking hive spawns doesnt change the balance of skulks in 1v1 engagements < 10 minutes. Skulk imbalance mainly stems from 3 things IMO:
The Marine rifle has a 3 degree spread, but with NS2's bugged spread calculations this is much closer to 1-2. Skulk is larger and slower than NS1. Lack of a well implemented and progressive skill based movement system to match marine aim.
A good place for starting -
Correct rifle spread issue and increase the spread to 4 degrees. Increase the skulks base speed by 0.5m, also really consider tweaking the model to shrink the width of the skulk somewhat (basically the part of the skulk you see when he runs straight at you). The final being the most difficul but sans some kind of more generalized bhop that all could accept, find ways to flesh out wallhop to make it fill some of the role. It still is my opinion that wallhop will never be quite enough to fully even the skulk/marine gameplay, but at the very least something is desperately needed.
From what I've played so far, skulks that are average or less get ABSOLUTELY decimated by average marines. Skulks are only strong when a significantly superior player is using them. As a marine, I can quite often take on multiple skulks that aren't particularly good or just average, although this is probably due to my pounce evasion skills still being active since AvP2 (pounce was a long range stun that pretty much meant instant death, if you couldn't avoid it, don't play marines/preds). From this, I've noticed that with correct marine movement, most skulk players have a nightmare in trying to hit you.
Since Skulks are disposable compared to other lifeforms, respawn rate could be reduced to 10 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2019422:date=Nov 11 2012, 08:45 PM:name=Tunska)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tunska @ Nov 11 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have seen many new players hiding and being too scared to jump in when you need to pretty much sacrifice yourself for the team to stop marines. Some don't realize that skulks are some what expandable. Many times I have jumped in to draw fire to myself just noticing that two other skulks that were near me are still hiding.
I don't expect any major changes since we are not in beta anymore. I think the best thing to do right now is to teach and organize attacks with people. At least personally I'm trying to communicate more with my team in the future. I can only hope that new players have patience to learn and hang on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When I first started playing I was one of those people too scared to skulk, but the video in the tutorial menu and good skulks who got on the mic and organized attacks like you're saying helped me get it. I try to do the same now, especially as commander. The servers I've played on at least people are helpful.
For a little while I tried gorge a lot because I didn't want to be a skulk. Gorge is very cheap to evolve into and when the onos is out you become incredibly useful, and bile bomb makes you the siege guy, that's always fun. Not for everyone though I guess, but it's something for new players to do as aliens if they can't stand being a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=2020845:date=Nov 12 2012, 03:14 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 12 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Marine rifle has a 3 degree spread, but with NS2's bugged spread calculations this is much closer to 1-2. Skulk is larger and slower than NS1. Lack of a well implemented and progressive skill based movement system to match marine aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to add to ths NS1 vs NS2 differences list. <ul><li>Skulk leap feels weaker (shorter distance) in NS2 </li><li>You get only 2 leaps out of a full energy bar vs 4 leaps in NS1.</li></ul>
Skulks need a vampire/leech ability or bring focus back. The vampire/leech could work like 15 life back per hit. Works on structures too.
5+ hits on armor 3 on a rine is just not doable.
Worst case make it so aliens gain res even when dead this might make skulk players more aggressive.
And Since regen is pointless can skulks at least start with cara if cara is researched? might help a tad against rine rushes,
I know the level 3 weapons and armor you spawn with so why not for aliens.
and lastly for the love of god make it so there is a draw back on making tons of armories. each additional armory cost 10 more res or something.
Also please please please add a movement slow or make the cross hair for rines start bobbling a decent amount when rines jump. 1 vs 1 at close range and its a jumping contest between a skulk and rine.
<!--quoteo(post=2020559:date=Nov 12 2012, 05:32 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 12 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The combination of marine sprint speed, fast respawns and small maps (relative to NS1) removes a lot of the alien mobility advantage.
I think you are wholely underestimating the complete and brutal advantage marines have in almost every area early game (assuming equal skill levels). You see aliens moving in groups of 4-5 because that is the only way to be <b>reasonably sure</b> you can kill a group of 2-3 marines. You know those marines that go 50-2 in public servers, this is facing a team of them. Attempting to be aggressive as aliens early on is good in theory, but in competitive matches the alien team is seconds from being egg locked in their hive at any moment which makes aggressive play very risky.
It is much like marines developing to now play more defensively, researching mines first, always holding res for a beacon. Aliens now cannot afford to be too aggressive or they can lose early too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The marine team CAN always be seconds away from being IP locked. Aliens don't play in a way to seriously threaten that, however, they should, they are the faster weaker race. The can kill the IP before marines can get into the hive. They should be forcing the marines to not have direct confrontations, not the other way around.
I realize this is WAY WAY easier said than done, Mines make it difficult, beacon allows marines to survive alien rushes (but if a beacon is forced marine team has a positional reset, which is a huge advantage for aliens), phase gates also become a hassle in this scenario. However, like I say, competitive zerg players used to make exactly the same complaints, and it wasn't giant buffs to the race that changed things for them, it was discovering more and more that if Terran had to respond to what they were doing they couldn't also kill their army.
With the power node system Flayra has unwittingly made killing the marine base directly way way easier than it really should be.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I was having a really pleasant solo skulk early game in Mineshaft. Killing the loners and pecking away at them with parasite from the shadows got myself 7-0 before any real conflict began.
Still ultimately lost the match because marines are totally op in the late game. Skulks against armor 3 might as well be wearing cones.
<!--quoteo(post=2020696:date=Nov 12 2012, 01:57 PM:name=evilgreenie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (evilgreenie @ Nov 12 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixes for skulks/aliens are pretty obvious and most are either already in the game or inferred:
Allow aliens to DO something while in the spawn queue - Pick hive to spawn at (defaults to closest or random hive if choosen hive destroyed) - Pick egg to spawn in (defaults to closest or random free egg if choosen egg destroyed) - Pick upgrades to spawn with (skulk only)
Also - Allow aliens to re-evolve to swap out upgrades (as in previous releases) - Allow hive teleport (maybe the new gorge tunnels?) - Allow focus or bring back frenzy - Make xenocide effective!
If UWE do ONE thing to make endgame skulks 1000x more effective, they simply need to buff xenocide to the efectiveness it was in NS1..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would definitely beat sitting staring at your screen for 10-15sec while respawning and then for another entire minute if you mute to fade or onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2020283:date=Nov 12 2012, 01:27 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 12 2012, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The original NS2 skulk concept had them be bigger, meaner and stronger than the NS1 skulks. The skulk in early alpha was in fact bigger than what we have now. It was supposed to be easier to get into for beginners, able to go toe to toe with a marine without having to rely too much on movement skills. That idea was soon dropped and we're now having an intermediate version that sits somewhere between NS1 and NS2 alpha speed, size and movement wise, but with NS1 health and armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess this explains why skulks are so huge now, I can't imagine them being even bigger, they're already the same size as a gorge! Strange that after making skulks bigger than NS1 and the AR/LMG more accurate, they ended up with the skulk having the exact same hp/armour that it always had.
<!--quoteo(post=2019473:date=Nov 11 2012, 05:40 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Nov 11 2012, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dont know if it was part of the design, but aliens are basically a lot less forgiving in all aspects of the game
alien comm going the wrong tech path (shade?) = gg marines going the wrong building first = ... oh wait just build the right one afterwards.. in fact just research all of them.
losing harvestor vs losing an extractor.. due to tight res control, aliens hurt more from a harvestor dying
Losing a shell/spur vs losing arms lab/proto type/adv armour.. upgrades dont need to be re-research
Losing a hive vs losing a CC, again no additional upgrades lost
Losing an advance lifeform vs losing a weapon... weapons can be picked up. jetpacks cost 10 to recover. (Exos DO cost a bit to recover... probaly why people think they suck)
Losing any lifeform Marine spawn quicker and multiple IPS to cater for increase of players Aliens can get egglocked
Aliens in marine base. Cannot spawn camp anymore, can try to chew the powernode/obs but marines can beacon
Marines in alien base. No beaconing of any kind . upgrades are in danger, can egg lock aliens
Losing a position in the map if aliens lose a position.. doh, now theres a PG there if marines lose a position, ... aliens can clog/hydra. Note any hydra/clog wall only effective if theres a gorge sitting there<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. It is so much easier to play marines from pretty much every aspect.
Skulks would be a bit more useful if celerity actually worked while in combat (and increased fade blink speed too, while were at it)
I really don't see the devs logic in not having it work while attacking. Marines have a SILLY amount of movement ability up close, thus all the circling and pogo jumping. Being able to keep the celerity speed while in combat would help the skulk compete with them.
<!--quoteo(post=2021357:date=Nov 12 2012, 03:21 PM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reeke @ Nov 12 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks would be a bit more useful if celerity actually worked while in combat (and increased fade blink speed too, while were at it)
I really don't see the devs logic in not having it work while attacking. Marines have a SILLY amount of movement ability up close, thus all the circling and pogo jumping. Being able to keep the celerity speed while in combat would help the skulk compete with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the dev logic in a lot of things, like how easy it is for aliens get this massive spawn queue to the point where they lose any and all map control incredibly easy.
My only guess is that a lot of them are just plain bad at their own game. They aren't good at marine, and that's why marine is so insanely powerful in NS2
So yeah. Just had 5 games in a row where the same people stacked Marines each time. Random put me on Aliens every time. We lost every round because we'd get boxed in almost immediately and even though we had at least 4 competent Aliens...we just couldn't do a damn thing about the Marines. It's getting frustrating as hell to play the game because of the unbalance. Whether it's from the B.S. hidden modifier that are glancing bites (which, by the way, makes med spam significantly more powerful than it was in NS1...), armory welding, or the hideous upgrade disparity.
What determines 8v8 wins and losses thus far? Whether or not the Marine team has at least three non-awful people and a Commander that can, at the least, breathe. Two doesn't quite cut it but three? Three Marines that actually know how to play determines more about the state of the round than anything else. I don't think a single one of my Alien victories thus far have been attributed to anything more than at least 5 of the 8 marines not knowing how to play.
Skulks are designed to be pack/ambush units. They have less health, spawn in batches, have abilities to close distance, etc. If you're running down hallways or you're on the ground most of the time, chomping at marines, try not doing that.
<!--quoteo(post=2021451:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:09 PM:name=Radiocage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radiocage @ Nov 12 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The solution to basically all of these skulk problems is this:
"Attack on 3! 1, 2, 3! GO GO GO GO!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only that actually worked. I literally just finished a game as Marine and had a 4v1 fight I won with two LMG kills, one Pistol kill, and finished the last one with the Hatchet. They were ###### on top of me before I started shooting and I came out of it with ~50 health, ~30 armor. W3/A3, base equipment otherwise, no med packs.
Glancing bites are bogus as hell. I should NOT have survived that fight. Period. As I said already elsewhere, I'm done playing Aliens. They are hopeless underpowered at this point and the only excuse a Marine team has for losing is their own ineptitude. Not the Aliens being good or skillful. Just the Marines being awful.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2020219:date=Nov 12 2012, 12:18 AM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Nov 12 2012, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off it is not the early game play marine vs skulk but rather the limited tactics available. Not sure if by ambush you mean camp on a ceiling till a marine enters the room, if that is the case try looking at your minimap as you enter the room or have your map up; as long as the alien is in you LOS he/she shows up. You remember that feeling of how the hell did they see me? Ya that is how. Even the marine comm can see you when the marine enters the room.
The focus argument has a huge flaw and problem that people are missing from NS1 that is in order to get focus it required a chamber dropped. This chamber was known as the sensory chamber which gave alot more benefits then just focus. It also provided aliens with cloaking and a free scent of fear if the marines where in range of the chamber. It required 3 chambers to provide the full effect of focus. So alien typically would place these chambers in strategic vents or under floors where marines couldn't easily locate and kill them and gave the aliens control over those areas. NS 2 chambers have to be placed out in the open and only placed by the comm. The easiest way for marines to counter this in NS1 was to rush motion tracking and mines. This is what I mean by tactics NS 2 tactics are extremely limited. This is where UWE needs to focus alot of their time creating more tactics and counters not trying to put both sides on equal footing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, don't know where this comes from, but why are you assuming I don't know about the game and then come up with these beyond obvious examples, to which all I can say is. No sh!t Sherlock...
And when you choose to use ambushing, I <b>obviously</b> meant that when you hear marines you go silent mode (shift). If there are more you observe and relay that info or take out the last marine coming into the room... Of course some marines use the minimap to spot ya, but this isn't always the case. Especially if you know how to avoid that minimap blip...
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->And here comes some friendly advice, maybe post a bit less aggressive to try and make your point seem more valid. You've got valid points, but you came across as the if I don't know anything about the game by misinterpreting the post and talking down to... Quite amusing. However not really good for the forum atmosphere, please keep that attitude out of these forums...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Yeah, I'll have to agree with the sentiment that Aliens suck right now. Too much dying, too much waiting, too much time traversing the map since they took out fast hive movement. You spend most of your time as a unit that is designed to die, only to wait 12 seconds to respawn. If you're alive, you should be mindlessly chewing down a resource node for the next 40 seconds or waiting on a ceiling somewhere. Oh yeah, if you're unlucky enough to join a bad alien team, expect to wait for exo's before being mercilessly spawn killed by grenades flying everywhere.
Unfortunately, a fundamental change to the skulk is highly unlikely as this problem has been around since the beginning of ns. They are unwilling to take a chance on this.
<!--quoteo(post=2020995:date=Nov 12 2012, 01:53 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Nov 12 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was having a really pleasant solo skulk early game in Mineshaft. Killing the loners and pecking away at them with parasite from the shadows got myself 7-0 before any real conflict began.
Still ultimately lost the match because marines are totally op in the late game. Skulks against armor 3 might as well be wearing cones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be honest, I'd like to see a crack-skulk upgrade. I actually do quite agree with this phenomena. It really irritates me to spawn as something all but useless in the late game.
I'd rather both the aliens and marines get ramped up and increased in coolness significantly in the late game.
It is somewhat balanced for how it is right now however (fades and onos are brutal, so the solution is just don't be skulk any more)
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
I am really impressed that there are clearly many people in the community who understand the game (and game dynamics, psychology, etc) well enough to recognise this problem. Then I am a little dissapointed that its been mostly drowned out by people who do not understand what is happening or who simply post their own anecdotal evidence. Although that has been interesting, in that there is evidence of the problem just by looking at the opinions new players form about the game and balance. I would love to hear what UWE's stance is.
Are UWE intentionally doing this to aim for a specific niche?
Is this an unintended side effect but its too late now?
Is this something they are aware of and will work on?
I love NS2 and there is huge potential for an incredibly fun and engaging game. I just think this one aspect of asymmetrical gameplay is a big mistake as it removes a large pool of potential players. The game would still have many asymmetrical features even if this was fixed and it would still be unique and special. I would love to see UWE making FPS/RTS more mainstream and I think NS2 is definately capable of that.
Maybe the minimap blip should only be shown in case of moving targets, like motion tracking. This doesn't affect actively scanning naturally. I think this change would help skulk ambushes immensely since marines would have to use their eyes to spot skulks rather than just viewing in a direction and checking the minimap.
I think the fact that marines spawn faster than aliens 'decrease the worth of skulk kills'. Just by adjusting alien spawns faster by a second or two, and marine spawning slower by a second or two, might make playing skulks more rewarding.
Other than that I don't have much qualms about the skulk, but some may emerge as people get better as marines in general.
<!--quoteo(post=2021991:date=Nov 13 2012, 12:41 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Nov 13 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the minimap blip should only be shown in case of moving targets, like motion tracking. This doesn't affect actively scanning naturally. I think this change would help skulk ambushes immensely since marines would have to use their eyes to spot skulks rather than just viewing in a direction and checking the minimap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Marine minimap is insanely powerful as detecting enemies hiding above you. Does it do a view frustum check or just directional?
If you dont already see the problems with the skulk then honestly i have no idea what to say... have you watched any recent competitve videos? In general as a marine player its extremely boring shooting skulks, and really any alien to that matter. The hardest alien to track would be the lerk, and that really isnt because of anything other than some really strange animations. All the other aliens are relatively easy to track, including skulk - barring some hitreg issues or prop collision issues where your hitting the prop instead of the skulk, its pretty easy to kill skulks extremely quickly even with the rifle.
Shortening alien respawn is the exact thing NOT to do, its marine spawn that is still too fast, coupled with sprint and slower alien movement speeds.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2022090:date=Nov 13 2012, 02:44 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 13 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2022090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shortening alien respawn is the exact thing NOT to do, its marine spawn that is still too fast, coupled with sprint and slower alien movement speeds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simply shortening Marine respawn will not address the issue that the majority of people will not be content with gameplay which causes one side to die constantly. It is simply not fun.
Im saying to lengthen marine spawn time, but yes that does not correct the problem with skulks not matching up well in terms of skill potential. IMO there are 3 quick fixes that can be made to fix skulk; Correcting the spread issue with all weapons that cause them to be very heavily biased and increasing the rifle spread to 4 degrees, and shrinking the width of the skulk model, and giving the skulk a small base speed increase (0.5ms)
Comments
Allow aliens to DO something while in the spawn queue
- Pick hive to spawn at (defaults to closest or random hive if choosen hive destroyed)
- Pick egg to spawn in (defaults to closest or random free egg if choosen egg destroyed)
- Pick upgrades to spawn with (skulk only)
Also
- Allow aliens to re-evolve to swap out upgrades (as in previous releases)
- Allow hive teleport (maybe the new gorge tunnels?)
- Allow focus or bring back frenzy
- Make xenocide effective!
If UWE do ONE thing to make endgame skulks 1000x more effective, they simply need to buff xenocide to the efectiveness it was in NS1..
- Skulk vs marine should be about 50% (+/- 10% maybe) : it's more fun, it's more fair. It should be so across skill level, player count, and possibly tech progression (not too sure about this one, because you might need "room" for higher lifeforms).
- In order to measure skulk vs marine one has to use balance teams, with different skill level, in controlled and well designed conditions. Personal anecdotes ("e.g. I can kill noob marines on this random server") are useless.
- Once the skulk vs marine is balanced the rest of the game can be changed accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
terrible idea. i guess you missed a good chunk of this thread.
in some situations, a skulk is 50/50 against a marine, or 20/80 or 80/20. if marines are fundamentally stronger, they will obviously strive to pressure the alien team into the position where the skulks will have a 20/80 against marines. ergo marine versus skulk isolated matchup is totally irrelevant.
balance talk should never come down to 'skulk needs to be more...'. until you can prove that alien is fundamentally weak and the only viable fix is improving the skulk. good luck with that.
I think you missed the part where I talk about "controlled and well designed conditions". As for having probability distribution instead of deterministic numbers, that's something educated people can handle without too much problems.
Skulk balance early game is more the issue here, hive teleport and xenocide and picking hive spawns doesnt change the balance of skulks in 1v1 engagements < 10 minutes. Skulk imbalance mainly stems from 3 things IMO:
The Marine rifle has a 3 degree spread, but with NS2's bugged spread calculations this is much closer to 1-2.
Skulk is larger and slower than NS1.
Lack of a well implemented and progressive skill based movement system to match marine aim.
A good place for starting -
Correct rifle spread issue and increase the spread to 4 degrees.
Increase the skulks base speed by 0.5m, also really consider tweaking the model to shrink the width of the skulk somewhat (basically the part of the skulk you see when he runs straight at you).
The final being the most difficul but sans some kind of more generalized bhop that all could accept, find ways to flesh out wallhop to make it fill some of the role. It still is my opinion that wallhop will never be quite enough to fully even the skulk/marine gameplay, but at the very least something is desperately needed.
Since Skulks are disposable compared to other lifeforms, respawn rate could be reduced to 10 seconds.
I don't expect any major changes since we are not in beta anymore. I think the best thing to do right now is to teach and organize attacks with people. At least personally I'm trying to communicate more with my team in the future. I can only hope that new players have patience to learn and hang on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I first started playing I was one of those people too scared to skulk, but the video in the tutorial menu and good skulks who got on the mic and organized attacks like you're saying helped me get it. I try to do the same now, especially as commander. The servers I've played on at least people are helpful.
For a little while I tried gorge a lot because I didn't want to be a skulk. Gorge is very cheap to evolve into and when the onos is out you become incredibly useful, and bile bomb makes you the siege guy, that's always fun. Not for everyone though I guess, but it's something for new players to do as aliens if they can't stand being a skulk.
Skulk is larger and slower than NS1.
Lack of a well implemented and progressive skill based movement system to match marine aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to add to ths NS1 vs NS2 differences list.
<ul><li>Skulk leap feels weaker (shorter distance) in NS2 </li><li>You get only 2 leaps out of a full energy bar vs 4 leaps in NS1.</li></ul>
5+ hits on armor 3 on a rine is just not doable.
Worst case make it so aliens gain res even when dead this might make skulk players more aggressive.
And Since regen is pointless can skulks at least start with cara if cara is researched? might help a tad against rine rushes,
I know the level 3 weapons and armor you spawn with so why not for aliens.
and lastly for the love of god make it so there is a draw back on making tons of armories. each additional armory cost 10 more res or something.
Also please please please add a movement slow or make the cross hair for rines start bobbling a decent amount when rines jump. 1 vs 1 at close range and its a jumping contest between a skulk and rine.
I think you are wholely underestimating the complete and brutal advantage marines have in almost every area early game (assuming equal skill levels). You see aliens moving in groups of 4-5 because that is the only way to be <b>reasonably sure</b> you can kill a group of 2-3 marines. You know those marines that go 50-2 in public servers, this is facing a team of them. Attempting to be aggressive as aliens early on is good in theory, but in competitive matches the alien team is seconds from being egg locked in their hive at any moment which makes aggressive play very risky.
It is much like marines developing to now play more defensively, researching mines first, always holding res for a beacon. Aliens now cannot afford to be too aggressive or they can lose early too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marine team CAN always be seconds away from being IP locked. Aliens don't play in a way to seriously threaten that, however, they should, they are the faster weaker race. The can kill the IP before marines can get into the hive. They should be forcing the marines to not have direct confrontations, not the other way around.
I realize this is WAY WAY easier said than done, Mines make it difficult, beacon allows marines to survive alien rushes (but if a beacon is forced marine team has a positional reset, which is a huge advantage for aliens), phase gates also become a hassle in this scenario. However, like I say, competitive zerg players used to make exactly the same complaints, and it wasn't giant buffs to the race that changed things for them, it was discovering more and more that if Terran had to respond to what they were doing they couldn't also kill their army.
With the power node system Flayra has unwittingly made killing the marine base directly way way easier than it really should be.
Still ultimately lost the match because marines are totally op in the late game. Skulks against armor 3 might as well be wearing cones.
Allow aliens to DO something while in the spawn queue
- Pick hive to spawn at (defaults to closest or random hive if choosen hive destroyed)
- Pick egg to spawn in (defaults to closest or random free egg if choosen egg destroyed)
- Pick upgrades to spawn with (skulk only)
Also
- Allow aliens to re-evolve to swap out upgrades (as in previous releases)
- Allow hive teleport (maybe the new gorge tunnels?)
- Allow focus or bring back frenzy
- Make xenocide effective!
If UWE do ONE thing to make endgame skulks 1000x more effective, they simply need to buff xenocide to the efectiveness it was in NS1..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would definitely beat sitting staring at your screen for 10-15sec while respawning and then for another entire minute if you mute to fade or onos.
whiners should be ignored. or THIS happens.
/thread
I guess this explains why skulks are so huge now, I can't imagine them being even bigger, they're already the same size as a gorge! Strange that after making skulks bigger than NS1 and the AR/LMG more accurate, they ended up with the skulk having the exact same hp/armour that it always had.
alien comm going the wrong tech path (shade?) = gg
marines going the wrong building first = ... oh wait just build the right one afterwards.. in fact just research all of them.
losing harvestor vs losing an extractor.. due to tight res control, aliens hurt more from a harvestor dying
Losing a shell/spur vs losing arms lab/proto type/adv armour.. upgrades dont need to be re-research
Losing a hive vs losing a CC, again no additional upgrades lost
Losing an advance lifeform vs losing a weapon... weapons can be picked up. jetpacks cost 10 to recover. (Exos DO cost a bit to recover... probaly why people think they suck)
Losing any lifeform
Marine spawn quicker and multiple IPS to cater for increase of players
Aliens can get egglocked
Aliens in marine base. Cannot spawn camp anymore, can try to chew the powernode/obs but marines can beacon
Marines in alien base. No beaconing of any kind . upgrades are in danger, can egg lock aliens
Losing a position in the map
if aliens lose a position.. doh, now theres a PG there
if marines lose a position, ... aliens can clog/hydra. Note any hydra/clog wall only effective if theres a gorge sitting there<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. It is so much easier to play marines from pretty much every aspect.
Aliens can not afford nearly as many mistakes.
I really don't see the devs logic in not having it work while attacking. Marines have a SILLY amount of movement ability up close, thus all the circling and pogo jumping. Being able to keep the celerity speed while in combat would help the skulk compete with them.
I really don't see the devs logic in not having it work while attacking. Marines have a SILLY amount of movement ability up close, thus all the circling and pogo jumping. Being able to keep the celerity speed while in combat would help the skulk compete with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the dev logic in a lot of things, like how easy it is for aliens get this massive spawn queue to the point where they lose any and all map control incredibly easy.
My only guess is that a lot of them are just plain bad at their own game. They aren't good at marine, and that's why marine is so insanely powerful in NS2
What determines 8v8 wins and losses thus far? Whether or not the Marine team has at least three non-awful people and a Commander that can, at the least, breathe. Two doesn't quite cut it but three? Three Marines that actually know how to play determines more about the state of the round than anything else. I don't think a single one of my Alien victories thus far have been attributed to anything more than at least 5 of the 8 marines not knowing how to play.
"Attack on 3! 1, 2, 3! GO GO GO GO!"
"Attack on 3! 1, 2, 3! GO GO GO GO!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only that actually worked. I literally just finished a game as Marine and had a 4v1 fight I won with two LMG kills, one Pistol kill, and finished the last one with the Hatchet. They were ###### on top of me before I started shooting and I came out of it with ~50 health, ~30 armor. W3/A3, base equipment otherwise, no med packs.
Glancing bites are bogus as hell. I should NOT have survived that fight. Period. As I said already elsewhere, I'm done playing Aliens. They are hopeless underpowered at this point and the only excuse a Marine team has for losing is their own ineptitude. Not the Aliens being good or skillful. Just the Marines being awful.
The focus argument has a huge flaw and problem that people are missing from NS1 that is in order to get focus it required a chamber dropped. This chamber was known as the sensory chamber which gave alot more benefits then just focus. It also provided aliens with cloaking and a free scent of fear if the marines where in range of the chamber. It required 3 chambers to provide the full effect of focus. So alien typically would place these chambers in strategic vents or under floors where marines couldn't easily locate and kill them and gave the aliens control over those areas. NS 2 chambers have to be placed out in the open and only placed by the comm. The easiest way for marines to counter this in NS1 was to rush motion tracking and mines. This is what I mean by tactics NS 2 tactics are extremely limited. This is where UWE needs to focus alot of their time creating more tactics and counters not trying to put both sides on equal footing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, don't know where this comes from, but why are you assuming I don't know about the game and then come up with these beyond obvious examples, to which all I can say is. No sh!t Sherlock...
And when you choose to use ambushing, I <b>obviously</b> meant that when you hear marines you go silent mode (shift). If there are more you observe and relay that info or take out the last marine coming into the room... Of course some marines use the minimap to spot ya, but this isn't always the case. Especially if you know how to avoid that minimap blip...
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->And here comes some friendly advice, maybe post a bit less aggressive to try and make your point seem more valid. You've got valid points, but you came across as the if I don't know anything about the game by misinterpreting the post and talking down to... Quite amusing. However not really good for the forum atmosphere, please keep that attitude out of these forums...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Unfortunately, a fundamental change to the skulk is highly unlikely as this problem has been around since the beginning of ns. They are unwilling to take a chance on this.
Still ultimately lost the match because marines are totally op in the late game. Skulks against armor 3 might as well be wearing cones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, I'd like to see a crack-skulk upgrade. I actually do quite agree with this phenomena. It really irritates me to spawn as something all but useless in the late game.
I'd rather both the aliens and marines get ramped up and increased in coolness significantly in the late game.
It is somewhat balanced for how it is right now however (fades and onos are brutal, so the solution is just don't be skulk any more)
Are UWE intentionally doing this to aim for a specific niche?
Is this an unintended side effect but its too late now?
Is this something they are aware of and will work on?
I love NS2 and there is huge potential for an incredibly fun and engaging game. I just think this one aspect of asymmetrical gameplay is a big mistake as it removes a large pool of potential players. The game would still have many asymmetrical features even if this was fixed and it would still be unique and special. I would love to see UWE making FPS/RTS more mainstream and I think NS2 is definately capable of that.
Other than that I don't have much qualms about the skulk, but some may emerge as people get better as marines in general.
The Marine minimap is insanely powerful as detecting enemies hiding above you. Does it do a view frustum check or just directional?
Shortening alien respawn is the exact thing NOT to do, its marine spawn that is still too fast, coupled with sprint and slower alien movement speeds.
Simply shortening Marine respawn will not address the issue that the majority of people will not be content with gameplay which causes one side to die constantly. It is simply not fun.