<!--quoteo(post=2019829:date=Nov 12 2012, 04:19 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 12 2012, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This particular asymmetrical aspect of NS2 is a bad thing for the game and will prevent large scale adoption. It adds too much frustration to Alien gameplay for the majority of people, leaving only the hardcore left. Psychologically people will always do more to avoid frustration than gain fun. Even if NS2 is the most fun game out there sometimes (and I believe it is), it also ranks quite high on the frustration scale too. This is what will make NS2 a niche game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ul><li>This is true, but not absolute. Exactly how many people will stop playing NS because of skulk mechanics is probably not as big as you think.</li><li>There are plenty of other things to do in NS which are not skulking - namely being a marine or being a comm. Of course, playing such a diminished version of NS would be pretty disappointing, but there's still quite a lot of game to play.</li><li>It's good that NS is different from other games. I probably wouldn't be here if it was more homogenised.</li><li>This issue was present in NS1. It's been present all throughout the beta. I can't help but think some peripheral balance changes would make this issue go away. Some minor changes to alien wave spawn and wall jump would probably go a long way. The frustration of playing skulk could be reduced without making skulks equally powerful to marines.</li><li>Any proposed change you can offer would require such a structural change to the game that it would break the rest of the game for many, many patches. The only way for some kind of solution to emerge is through a hugely popular balance mod.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=2019829:date=Nov 12 2012, 04:19 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 12 2012, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We already know Skulks are designed and purposefully cannon fodder, thats what the thread is about and it is also part of the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yea, i thought it was kinda funny in the first esl match with exertus literally all sitting on kdr's like 2/30 or something with exception of onos. Sure arc are great shooters no doubt, but exertus arn't pushover players either and the match was considered a 'close' game later on. I lol'd. Such a huge disconnect between balance and skulk fun.
I don't think that the skulk's gameplay is necessarily damaging but it is unusual in that to effectively play skulk you have to be acutely aware that you are no match for a single marine 1v1 (assuming the marine isn't awful) even though you might intuitively expect the two sides to have more or less equally effective base units. The skulk's strength comes in speed and stealth and as the game goes on both of those strengths are worn away by marine tech (phase/obs). In NS1, good skulk play early on lead to lots of R4K which lead into early fade which meant that if you were having a good game you rarely had to spend too much time as a skulk. Now, optimal play is to mostly ignore lifeforms before the onos, making the skulk-only period longer and crucially making a much bigger overlap where marines have phases and obs everywhere but you're still stuck as a skulk.
Of course the flipside of that is that (at least for me) when I accomplish anything as a skulk I feel <i>smug as hell</i> because I just used my horrible weak base unit to do something useful. Extractors are delicious, landing on marine heads is even better.
In any case assuming that fades are to be buffed or made cheaper, the 'skulk problem' is ameliorated. Of course, it's not really a problem at all, just an issue with how the playstyle is perceived, but it is definitely more pronounced in NS2 than NS1 for the reasons given above (no r4k, weaker lifeforms leading to a longer period of reliance on skulks).
As has been mentioned in here and other places before, I think one of the biggest problems with skulk play is that dieing has very negative personal consequences. High respawn timer, egg lock, and worst of all lack of pres when dead makes dieing a very bad thing. As an old NS1 player, the first thing I would tell someone about skulk play would be "don't be afraid to die".
I see a good 25 to 33% of new skulks spend most of the game waiting to "ambush" marines in places that have no tactical value, or worse just hive camping. There is nothing wrong with playing a skulk slow and sneaky or waiting over a res node you know marines will be coming to build, but it really feels like a lot of players are simply afraid of death. The skulk is and always will be a throw away life form. If a marine with even an unupgraded lmg looks at you funny, you are going to die, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that, so long as it doesn't make the player feel like they are being penalized for it. That leads to new players not having fun, or spending half the game hiding.
Why isnt there an option to play a more expensive version of the skulk or something.
Sometimes i wish you could play a version of skulk that costed like 10-15 or maybe 20 res and it would have some advantages. or maybe aliens just need another mid tier alien to fill this gap.
Or why doesnt aliens have 3armor and 3 melee upgrade system.
Imagine if in Starcraft 2 only terran had armor and weapon upgrades and protoss and zerg did not, that would be stupid hard to balance.
instead of being armor and dmg, for aliens it could be speed and healthy or something, speed and melee dmg.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why isnt there an option to play a more expensive version of the skulk or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only they could somehow evolve into a stronger, more powerful life form? Perhaps some type of gas attack that kills multiple marines in seconds? Maybe the ability to teleport and ambush small groups of marines? I'd also like to see some kind of healer alien, but give it something that makes it useful mid-end game like an anti-structure AoE or turrets?
Man, that would make the game <i>so much better</i>
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Marines scale better end game with their default unit, yet fall behind on their advanced units when both teams have them fielded. Newer players not knowing when to evolve is a huge issue. I said it earlier, I'll say it again...
If you are skulk at the end game, it means you made poor decisions early to mid game. If your whole team are skulks end-game, it means you were outplayed either individually or as a team. That is literally the condition to win, play better as a team. Failing that, you lose the match.
1. why is there a K:D ratio in the score menu? Informing the player about how many times he has died serves no purpose in an assymetrical game where one side explicitly has to intuitively work as a team of better/less expendable and weaker/more expendable units. It works against teamwork by letting new players aim for the goal of the best K:D ratio on the team, making them roam around looking for marines by themselves or hanging back to heal when they could have taken a bullet for another guy. Get rid of it please - replace it with a "time played" for that server or round, and put the K:D in the spectator mode if you need it for competitive reasons.
2. Why not scale down the model of the skulk? - Why was it made bigger compared to in NS1 in the first place? It doesn't need to be as small as the ones in NS1, but if it was moderately smaller it would be a harder target for marines to hit, regardless of weapon and upgrades + feel much better with the smaller model+viewpoint at the current speed and jumpheight compared to the somewhat cumbersome dog it feels like now. Edit: Making the skulk smaller would make no difference against the AoE weapons marines have, giving them more purpose, and punish the shotgun for its small spread if you aren't a master at aiming
<!--quoteo(post=2020112:date=Nov 11 2012, 04:23 PM:name=mokkat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mokkat @ Nov 11 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. why is there a K:D ratio in the score menu? Informing the player about how many times he has died serves no purpose in an assymetrical game where one side explicitly has to intuitively work as a team of better/less expendable and weaker/more expendable units. It works against teamwork by letting new players aim for the goal of the best K:D ratio on the team, making them roam around looking for marines by themselves or hanging back to heal when they could have taken a bullet for another guy. Get rid of it please - replace it with a "time played" for that server or round, and put the K:D in the spectator mode if you need it for competitive reasons.
2. Why not scale down the model of the skulk? - Why was it made bigger compared to in NS1 in the first place? It doesn't need to be as small as the ones in NS1, but if it was moderately smaller it would be a harder target for marines to hit, regardless of weapon and upgrades + feel much better with the smaller model+viewpoint at the current speed and jumpheight compared to the somewhat cumbersome dog it feels like now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) K/D can help an alien or marine commander decide who to give something to for specific missions. (I.E. Choose the guy that has 40-1 ratio to drop an Exo or JP/weapon of choice for). It doesn't really serve much of a purpose outside of that. What you're asking for is in the next column over and is called the 'score' which only slightly relates to K/D. I'll often times have a horrible K/D/R as an alien skulk yet have the highest score on the team. A good skulk might spend more time chewing resource nodes, at which point you're fighting their commander and not their fielded units. Beat him, you beat their team.
There are cases where one flipping Marine or alien is just so much better than everyone on your team that you lose on just the merits of that one player. This is an exception rather than a rule, and is impossible to balance around.
2) Because some Marines can't hit skulks as things are right now. A wall-jumping skulk that can bite while slingshotting off walls is tough for even a pro to hit. This is a case of being unable to balance against pro and new players. The vertical jump height is mitigated by wall jumping being a sling shot that launches skulks upwards like a missile. If you can run on the ceiling and use walls like a trampoline, why do you need flat-ground jump as well? For that matter, what are you doing on the floor in the first place?
<!--quoteo(post=2020123:date=Nov 11 2012, 11:37 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 11 2012, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) K/D can help an alien or marine commander decide who to give something to for specific missions. (I.E. Choose the guy that has 40-1 ratio to drop an Exo or JP/weapon of choice for). It doesn't really serve much of a purpose outside of that. What you're asking for is in the next column over and is called the 'score' which only slightly relates to K/D. I'll often times have a horrible K/D/R as an alien skulk yet have the highest score on the team. A good skulk might spend more time chewing resource nodes, at which point you're fighting their commander and not their fielded units. Beat him, you beat their team.
There are cases where one flipping Marine or alien is just so much better than everyone on your team that you lose on just the merits of that one player. This is an exception rather than a rule, and is impossible to balance around.
2) Because some Marines can't hit skulks as things are right now. A wall-jumping skulk that can bite while slingshotting off walls is tough for even a pro to hit. This is a case of being unable to balance against pro and new players. The vertical jump height is mitigated by wall jumping being a sling shot that launches skulks upwards like a missile. If you can run on the ceiling and use walls like a trampoline, why do you need flat-ground jump as well? For that matter, what are you doing on the floor in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont disagree. Wrote that in the spirit of making the game more intuitive/accessible/less frustrating for newcomers, so this game can remain increasingly popular, without breaking it for the competitive clans
Hit and run ambusher, if you discount that marines have all the time in the world to just turn around and shoot you while you are getting bite 4 or 5 on them
Cannon fodder, if we forget they spawn like 3000 times slower than marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah the skulk is just flawed conceptually, as is the egg-spawning system. they have perfect synergy in being awful, where the skulks suicide and then get punished for performing their role.
it really doesn't make any sense from a gameplay perspective to have a fodder unit not have some other balancing mechanic, e.g. zerglings spawn in pairs, spawn quickly, cost very little money. skulks are equal in number to marines, spawn slowly, and it's insanely easy to egg lock and punish them for suiciding. how many times have you seen a pair of marines chilling in a hive and egg-locking, versus two skulks staying on top of an IP and spawncamping? the roles are completely reversed and broken
edit: and most of this stuff about the "pros being unable to hit walljumping skulks" is completely silly. high level skulk play is entirely focused around +walk, mindgames, baiting, and ambushing. rarely do I see walljump used to initiate fights unless it has already started and the attention has been diverted.
skulk power is lacking, and i think any player with alot of hours in ns2 will tell you this. It's not about overall 50/50 balance as much as it is about fun - i think spawn waves are really hiding alot of ugly issues. They just don't scale as well as marine aim/movement. It isn't about "oh you need to ambush more" or be more "sneaky". Along with a big model size, movement and collision are subpar - especially the latter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think it was the original intention, but essentialy skulks are now balanced around dying often and respawning quickly; which unfortunately is not a whole lot of fun for the skulk players.
It isn't really a surprise either, when you consider that skulks are bigger and slower than their NS1 counterparts, yet they have identical health/armor values and are expected to be played for a longer period of time, with pres lifeforms arriving on average 6 minutes later in NS2 than NS1.
Suggestion in one sentence: Remove wavespawning and make skulks faster and tougher.
<!--quoteo(post=2020172:date=Nov 11 2012, 07:23 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 11 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a shame that such a relevant thread and reasoned OP gets essentially spammed with -1s because posters don't understand the problem.
I don't think it was the original intention, but essentialy skulks are now balanced around dying often and respawning quickly; which unfortunately is not a whole lot of fun for the skulk players.
It isn't really a surprise either, when you consider that skulks are bigger and slower than their NS1 counterparts, yet they have identical health/armor values and are expected to be played for a longer period of time, with pres lifeforms arriving on average 6 minutes later in NS2 than NS1.
Suggestion in one sentence: Remove wavespawning and make skulks faster and tougher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also widen the LMG firing cone. it's currently 3 degrees iirc, and in NS1 it was 4 degrees. if it was raised to 4-5 degrees, i think that would solve a lot of issues without really affecting LMG play against the larger lifeforms. would also give lerks a better time at engaging marines. currently it's just ridiculous as the LMG is superior to the pistol at any range.
<!--quoteo(post=2019599:date=Nov 11 2012, 08:40 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 11 2012, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen a lot of "this should change, because of X"
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The only issue I currently see with the Skulk is not early gameplay<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, it is the fact that it simply doesn't scale with A3-W3 marines end game. Which in turn makes the Skulk increasingly hard to play and frustrating, because players are playing Skulk most of the time. This is also a side affect of trying to balance a game for both competitive gameplay and public gameplay, the things that make it easier will in turn make skilled players extremely good.
That and some of the upgrades are weird in NS2, Celerity out of combat, Adrenaline is just a bigger pool, focus is not there, alien spawn waves that do not scale with team size. However those were implemented as such to make it easier for marines. So boosting those will in turn make it harder for marines once more. It is a delicate balance we're talking about (public play vs competitive play once more), Also the Skulk is free, samegoes for a freshly spawned marine of course, but there is team res spend on his end game capabilities. Free Skulks will remain free throughout the match, this is part of the no scaling bit I guess...
I also see a lot of "equal skill vs equal skill -> 1v1". I mean this game is about teamplay, where a group of Skulk that do a good ambush will have the advantage. This is is a group vs group game and if you're skilled enough you can try and take on multiple enemies...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off it is not the early game play marine vs skulk but rather the limited tactics available. Not sure if by ambush you mean camp on a ceiling till a marine enters the room, if that is the case try looking at your minimap as you enter the room or have your map up; as long as the alien is in you LOS he/she shows up. You remember that feeling of how the hell did they see me? Ya that is how. Even the marine comm can see you when the marine enters the room.
The focus argument has a huge flaw and problem that people are missing from NS1 that is in order to get focus it required a chamber dropped. This chamber was known as the sensory chamber which gave alot more benefits then just focus. It also provided aliens with cloaking and a free scent of fear if the marines where in range of the chamber. It required 3 chambers to provide the full effect of focus. So alien typically would place these chambers in strategic vents or under floors where marines couldn't easily locate and kill them and gave the aliens control over those areas. NS 2 chambers have to be placed out in the open and only placed by the comm. The easiest way for marines to counter this in NS1 was to rush motion tracking and mines. This is what I mean by tactics NS 2 tactics are extremely limited. This is where UWE needs to focus alot of their time creating more tactics and counters not trying to put both sides on equal footing.
<!--quoteo(post=2020172:date=Nov 11 2012, 07:23 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 11 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a shame that such a relevant thread and reasoned OP gets essentially spammed with -1s because posters don't understand the problem.
I don't think it was the original intention, but essentialy skulks are now balanced around dying often and respawning quickly; which unfortunately is not a whole lot of fun for the skulk players.
It isn't really a surprise either, when you consider that skulks are bigger and slower than their NS1 counterparts, yet they have identical health/armor values and are expected to be played for a longer period of time, with pres lifeforms arriving on average 6 minutes later in NS2 than NS1.
Suggestion in one sentence: Remove wavespawning and make skulks faster and tougher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks need skill-based movement. Might as well make them have leap at the start.
<!--quoteo(post=2020235:date=Nov 11 2012, 04:37 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 11 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks need skill-based movement. Might as well make them have leap at the start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 needs skill-based movement :P
Part of the problem is pretty obvious even in this threat. People view skulks as expendable. But the game only half supports this fact.
Skulks, while free, die easily. The respawn timer is the same for EVERY life form. Which means every time a skulk dies, its a 12 second + wait till they can rejoin the game. Add in the fact that evolving traits also takes additional time, it winds up being around 14 - 15 seconds of downtime after each death.
You don't gain res while dead. This means every time you die, you lose out on 12 seconds of res you would of gained otherwise.
Skulks get weaker as the game progresses. Marines get more armor and more attack power. Making it even easier for aliens in general to die, but harder for them to get a kill.
This doesn't really encourage expendable gameplay. Its not fun rushing into a fight just to die quickly. You have to be far superior to the person you're fighting in order to win against them. By trying to rush in and die for the cause, you basically are gimping yourself in the future. Pushing back when you'll get a new form if you die. Its a bit too punishing at the moment I feel for aliens in general.
The original NS2 skulk concept had them be bigger, meaner and stronger than the NS1 skulks. The skulk in early alpha was in fact bigger than what we have now. It was supposed to be easier to get into for beginners, able to go toe to toe with a marine without having to rely too much on movement skills. That idea was soon dropped and we're now having an intermediate version that sits somewhere between NS1 and NS2 alpha speed, size and movement wise, but with NS1 health and armor.
<!--quoteo(post=2019428:date=Nov 11 2012, 06:01 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 11 2012, 06:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks die a lot, but the reward is to get a higher life form and then not die as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The reward for dying a lot is to get a higher life form even slower. And as a higher lifeform not named Onos, you will die less because you'll be paranoid about losing your pres investment.
<!--quoteo(post=2019422:date=Nov 11 2012, 02:45 AM:name=Tunska)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tunska @ Nov 11 2012, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have seen many new players hiding and being too scared to jump in when you need to pretty much sacrifice yourself for the team to stop marines. Some don't realize that skulks are some what expandable. Many times I have jumped in to draw fire to myself just noticing that two other skulks that were near me are still hiding.
I don't expect any major changes since we are not in beta anymore. I think the best thing to do right now is to teach and organize attacks with people. At least personally I'm trying to communicate more with my team in the future. I can only hope that new players have patience to learn and hang on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats what I don't understand though. They AREN'T somewhat expendable AT ALL. Seriously half of the posts on this thread keep saying they are expendable, its not true at all. Honestly its better to get to 5 hp and walk across the map heal and walk back because you can do it faster than you will have spawned and evolved. Do many people do it ? Heck no, its boring and you feel useless cause you are doing nothing objectively for your team. I'd like someone to explain to me EXACTLY how aliens are more expendable then marines. Cause as it stands aliens :
1. When dead they recieve no Rez so they are actively losing rez. 2. They have a longer spawning time so when you go for a 1 for 1 trade the number of players alive for Marines will be higher in the short run. 3. Marines can get around the map faster with phase gates.
They aren't expendable. They are nothing like zerglings. Zerglings spawn in batches of 2 for 50 minerals. Zerglings hatch time is smaller. Zerglings require less tech to be built.
Aliens in the current game are nothing like zerglings but it FEELS like they should be because they are weak as ######.
So please enlighten me, atleast 10 people have said it without telling me WHY are skulks expendable ?
The fun part about K/D is that even when those uber badass marines that go in the rookie server and show off, and its all oh yeah baby 70-5 or something like that.
Then somehow out of sheer luck, they get put on the alien team and they cant even go equal K/D let alone more kills than deaths.
Very rarely do i see an alien have more Kill than deaths.
It doesnt fit the game as it stands atm.
I also dont understand why people says skulks are okay to die, its really not, you loose res, it takes ages to respawn, you have to evolve the mutations you have to get back to where you were. that is like 1 min atleast.
Marine respawn get everything instantly, and then steps into Phase gate, so basically as marine it never takes more than 10 sec to get back into the same spot vs 1 min or so. wonderful.
lets say it again. You cannot go around dying as skulk, you will loose so much res.
Maybe its time to let skulks or aliens in general regen res when dead, if skulks are just supposed to be cannon fodder.
I usually get around a 20/1 k/d as skulk, but I'm not very good at it. My marine k/d is about 3 times better usually, but I don't value my life as much as a skulk than as a marine.
As a marine, if I have T3 Weapon and Armor I can feel just as effective with the default weapons in endgame as I did when the game first started. Maybe a 15pres investment in a jetpack/welder to put the icing on the cake.
So why can't a skulk with all 3 evolutions and an overhwelming advantage over the marines map-wise not feel as effective? Even the 50pres fade doesn't feel justified for the cost. The stuff that marines can buy with 50pres would most likely cancel out the fade's effectiveness anyway.
I'll admit I've never tried playing a fade myself outside of explore mode, but I've seen how they work and I've seen the difference between good/bad fades, and even the good fades are effective against groups of marines for a very small window if you can get one on the field early enough.
Not intending to take away from the absolutely amazing skills of current NS2 competitive players... but watching what goes on in an NS2 game at arguably the highest level of competitive play right now, compared to what I'm used to seeing in starcraft, in terms of map movement, the alien metagame is in a really bad place in NS2 right now. Marines are strong, and so aliens are allowing them to force the action against them. Any zerg player in starcraft knows the opposite should be true. Skulks have 4 massive mobility advantages. 1: They never have to stop to build res nodes and power nodes. 2: They have wall jumping. 3: They have vents. 4: Their base movement speed is 16% faster than a sprinting marine. Marines should be too afraid of getting too far away from marine start because as soon as they do they should begin losing every structure they have. Consolidated skulk teams should be doing a lot more damage than they do...
The current standard is for a group of 4-5 skulks to find the strongest group of marines and just die as quickly as they can hoping to take one out before there is a marine push team close to the hive. I realize this is arguably necessary... but there's a lot more metagame to be explored in forcing the marines to be more diligent with base defense as well. The timings are just utterly unknown right now aside from knowing the 6 minute onos. The feeling I really got was aliens consistently trying to react to marines, which is absurd considering the map advantage they possess. Skulks are consistently attempting to play for positional advantages to win a battle that they really don't even need to fight.
I'm not going to argue against alien buffs, if they come, I don't think it will hurt the game too much to balance in response to the current meta-game, but the reality is that part of the problem is that alien is a lot less figured out than marines right now. At some point the meta-game at the highest levels will shift and aliens will start to get a lot more mileage out of their mobility than they are currently able to.
The combination of marine sprint speed, fast respawns and small maps (relative to NS1) removes a lot of the alien mobility advantage.
I think you are wholely underestimating the complete and brutal advantage marines have in almost every area early game (assuming equal skill levels). You see aliens moving in groups of 4-5 because that is the only way to be <b>reasonably sure</b> you can kill a group of 2-3 marines. You know those marines that go 50-2 in public servers, this is facing a team of them. Attempting to be aggressive as aliens early on is good in theory, but in competitive matches the alien team is seconds from being egg locked in their hive at any moment which makes aggressive play very risky.
It is much like marines developing to now play more defensively, researching mines first, always holding res for a beacon. Aliens now cannot afford to be too aggressive or they can lose early too.
Dying isn't fun. Designing a life form purposely weaker than the counterpart in the other team, makes playing this life form not fun.
I don't think the skulk-vs-marine play is heavy unbalanced right now. But it is to some extent, that makes skulk-play less fun than marine play. The other alien life forms may balance the teams again. But I don't like this design. I think a vanilla skulk should be toe on toe with a vanilla marine.
I think this can be achieved by easy tweakes. Like making the skulk model a bit smaller.
I understand that it can be frustrating to go 1v1 against a shotgunner with no carapace or leap, which noticeably in late game makes it almost impossible to retake a hive location when the opposite team has everything and you have nothing, making comebacks for aliens much harder if the marines are co-ordinated.
But at the same time I do not see skulks needing a significant buff, sure it is difficult, but you just need to make sure you move around a lot more and not do a beeline to a marine. Of course this said, there is some addressing needed to ensure late game a skulk is on par with a marine even when they are struggling with a single hive and trying to retake territory.
- Skulk vs marine should be about 50% (+/- 10% maybe) : it's more fun, it's more fair. It should be so across skill level, player count, and possibly tech progression (not too sure about this one, because you might need "room" for higher lifeforms).
- In order to measure skulk vs marine one has to use balance teams, with different skill level, in controlled and well designed conditions. Personal anecdotes ("e.g. I can kill noob marines on this random server") are useless.
- Once the skulk vs marine is balanced the rest of the game can be changed accordingly.
ahh.... the issue that is being addressed by unexperienced players, because this is not issue if you know how to play skulk.
it's easy to dodge attacks from 3-4 marines without dying, even if they're experienced, ofcourse, dodging alone won't help but you need help of your team while you take fire they'll kill.
when it's 1v1 i usually win with skulk, because marine wastes clip shooting air and then i put in few well aimed bites and and he's dead, most of the time commander is spamming healthpacks if he wins.
in endgame however, skulks cannot compare to marine with a3 and w3 with jetpacks / shotguns etc, but skulks aren't useless even then, they can kill rt's quite easily, support onoses / fades while they draw fire you go to their legs and bite them.
Comments
But. Skulk is my favorite...
<ul><li>This is true, but not absolute. Exactly how many people will stop playing NS because of skulk mechanics is probably not as big as you think.</li><li>There are plenty of other things to do in NS which are not skulking - namely being a marine or being a comm. Of course, playing such a diminished version of NS would be pretty disappointing, but there's still quite a lot of game to play.</li><li>It's good that NS is different from other games. I probably wouldn't be here if it was more homogenised.</li><li>This issue was present in NS1. It's been present all throughout the beta. I can't help but think some peripheral balance changes would make this issue go away. Some minor changes to alien wave spawn and wall jump would probably go a long way. The frustration of playing skulk could be reduced without making skulks equally powerful to marines.</li><li>Any proposed change you can offer would require such a structural change to the game that it would break the rest of the game for many, many patches. The only way for some kind of solution to emerge is through a hugely popular balance mod.</li></ul>
yea, i thought it was kinda funny in the first esl match with exertus literally all sitting on kdr's like 2/30 or something with exception of onos. Sure arc are great shooters no doubt, but exertus arn't pushover players either and the match was considered a 'close' game later on. I lol'd. Such a huge disconnect between balance and skulk fun.
Of course the flipside of that is that (at least for me) when I accomplish anything as a skulk I feel <i>smug as hell</i> because I just used my horrible weak base unit to do something useful. Extractors are delicious, landing on marine heads is even better.
In any case assuming that fades are to be buffed or made cheaper, the 'skulk problem' is ameliorated. Of course, it's not really a problem at all, just an issue with how the playstyle is perceived, but it is definitely more pronounced in NS2 than NS1 for the reasons given above (no r4k, weaker lifeforms leading to a longer period of reliance on skulks).
I see a good 25 to 33% of new skulks spend most of the game waiting to "ambush" marines in places that have no tactical value, or worse just hive camping. There is nothing wrong with playing a skulk slow and sneaky or waiting over a res node you know marines will be coming to build, but it really feels like a lot of players are simply afraid of death. The skulk is and always will be a throw away life form. If a marine with even an unupgraded lmg looks at you funny, you are going to die, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that, so long as it doesn't make the player feel like they are being penalized for it. That leads to new players not having fun, or spending half the game hiding.
Sometimes i wish you could play a version of skulk that costed like 10-15 or maybe 20 res and it would have some advantages. or maybe aliens just need another mid tier alien to fill this gap.
Or why doesnt aliens have 3armor and 3 melee upgrade system.
Imagine if in Starcraft 2 only terran had armor and weapon upgrades and protoss and zerg did not, that would be stupid hard to balance.
instead of being armor and dmg, for aliens it could be speed and healthy or something, speed and melee dmg.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why isnt there an option to play a more expensive version of the skulk or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only they could somehow evolve into a stronger, more powerful life form? Perhaps some type of gas attack that kills multiple marines in seconds? Maybe the ability to teleport and ambush small groups of marines? I'd also like to see some kind of healer alien, but give it something that makes it useful mid-end game like an anti-structure AoE or turrets?
Man, that would make the game <i>so much better</i>
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Marines scale better end game with their default unit, yet fall behind on their advanced units when both teams have them fielded. Newer players not knowing when to evolve is a huge issue. I said it earlier, I'll say it again...
If you are skulk at the end game, it means you made poor decisions early to mid game. If your whole team are skulks end-game, it means you were outplayed either individually or as a team. That is literally the condition to win, play better as a team. Failing that, you lose the match.
QED.
Get rid of it please - replace it with a "time played" for that server or round, and put the K:D in the spectator mode if you need it for competitive reasons.
2. Why not scale down the model of the skulk? - Why was it made bigger compared to in NS1 in the first place? It doesn't need to be as small as the ones in NS1, but if it was moderately smaller it would be a harder target for marines to hit, regardless of weapon and upgrades + feel much better with the smaller model+viewpoint at the current speed and jumpheight compared to the somewhat cumbersome dog it feels like now.
Edit: Making the skulk smaller would make no difference against the AoE weapons marines have, giving them more purpose, and punish the shotgun for its small spread if you aren't a master at aiming
Get rid of it please - replace it with a "time played" for that server or round, and put the K:D in the spectator mode if you need it for competitive reasons.
2. Why not scale down the model of the skulk? - Why was it made bigger compared to in NS1 in the first place? It doesn't need to be as small as the ones in NS1, but if it was moderately smaller it would be a harder target for marines to hit, regardless of weapon and upgrades + feel much better with the smaller model+viewpoint at the current speed and jumpheight compared to the somewhat cumbersome dog it feels like now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) K/D can help an alien or marine commander decide who to give something to for specific missions. (I.E. Choose the guy that has 40-1 ratio to drop an Exo or JP/weapon of choice for). It doesn't really serve much of a purpose outside of that. What you're asking for is in the next column over and is called the 'score' which only slightly relates to K/D. I'll often times have a horrible K/D/R as an alien skulk yet have the highest score on the team. A good skulk might spend more time chewing resource nodes, at which point you're fighting their commander and not their fielded units. Beat him, you beat their team.
There are cases where one flipping Marine or alien is just so much better than everyone on your team that you lose on just the merits of that one player. This is an exception rather than a rule, and is impossible to balance around.
2) Because some Marines can't hit skulks as things are right now. A wall-jumping skulk that can bite while slingshotting off walls is tough for even a pro to hit. This is a case of being unable to balance against pro and new players. The vertical jump height is mitigated by wall jumping being a sling shot that launches skulks upwards like a missile. If you can run on the ceiling and use walls like a trampoline, why do you need flat-ground jump as well? For that matter, what are you doing on the floor in the first place?
There are cases where one flipping Marine or alien is just so much better than everyone on your team that you lose on just the merits of that one player. This is an exception rather than a rule, and is impossible to balance around.
2) Because some Marines can't hit skulks as things are right now. A wall-jumping skulk that can bite while slingshotting off walls is tough for even a pro to hit. This is a case of being unable to balance against pro and new players. The vertical jump height is mitigated by wall jumping being a sling shot that launches skulks upwards like a missile. If you can run on the ceiling and use walls like a trampoline, why do you need flat-ground jump as well? For that matter, what are you doing on the floor in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont disagree. Wrote that in the spirit of making the game more intuitive/accessible/less frustrating for newcomers, so this game can remain increasingly popular, without breaking it for the competitive clans
Hit and run ambusher, if you discount that marines have all the time in the world to just turn around and shoot you while you are getting bite 4 or 5 on them
Cannon fodder, if we forget they spawn like 3000 times slower than marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah the skulk is just flawed conceptually, as is the egg-spawning system. they have perfect synergy in being awful, where the skulks suicide and then get punished for performing their role.
it really doesn't make any sense from a gameplay perspective to have a fodder unit not have some other balancing mechanic, e.g. zerglings spawn in pairs, spawn quickly, cost very little money. skulks are equal in number to marines, spawn slowly, and it's insanely easy to egg lock and punish them for suiciding. how many times have you seen a pair of marines chilling in a hive and egg-locking, versus two skulks staying on top of an IP and spawncamping? the roles are completely reversed and broken
edit: and most of this stuff about the "pros being unable to hit walljumping skulks" is completely silly. high level skulk play is entirely focused around +walk, mindgames, baiting, and ambushing. rarely do I see walljump used to initiate fights unless it has already started and the attention has been diverted.
<!--quoteo(post=2019482:date=Nov 11 2012, 12:49 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 11 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 arga.
skulk power is lacking, and i think any player with alot of hours in ns2 will tell you this. It's not about overall 50/50 balance as much as it is about fun - i think spawn waves are really hiding alot of ugly issues. They just don't scale as well as marine aim/movement. It isn't about "oh you need to ambush more" or be more "sneaky". Along with a big model size, movement and collision are subpar - especially the latter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it was the original intention, but essentialy skulks are now balanced around dying often and respawning quickly; which unfortunately is not a whole lot of fun for the skulk players.
It isn't really a surprise either, when you consider that skulks are bigger and slower than their NS1 counterparts, yet they have identical health/armor values and are expected to be played for a longer period of time, with pres lifeforms arriving on average 6 minutes later in NS2 than NS1.
Suggestion in one sentence: Remove wavespawning and make skulks faster and tougher.
I don't think it was the original intention, but essentialy skulks are now balanced around dying often and respawning quickly; which unfortunately is not a whole lot of fun for the skulk players.
It isn't really a surprise either, when you consider that skulks are bigger and slower than their NS1 counterparts, yet they have identical health/armor values and are expected to be played for a longer period of time, with pres lifeforms arriving on average 6 minutes later in NS2 than NS1.
Suggestion in one sentence: Remove wavespawning and make skulks faster and tougher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also widen the LMG firing cone. it's currently 3 degrees iirc, and in NS1 it was 4 degrees. if it was raised to 4-5 degrees, i think that would solve a lot of issues without really affecting LMG play against the larger lifeforms. would also give lerks a better time at engaging marines. currently it's just ridiculous as the LMG is superior to the pistol at any range.
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The only issue I currently see with the Skulk is not early gameplay<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, it is the fact that it simply doesn't scale with A3-W3 marines end game. Which in turn makes the Skulk increasingly hard to play and frustrating, because players are playing Skulk most of the time. This is also a side affect of trying to balance a game for both competitive gameplay and public gameplay, the things that make it easier will in turn make skilled players extremely good.
That and some of the upgrades are weird in NS2, Celerity out of combat, Adrenaline is just a bigger pool, focus is not there, alien spawn waves that do not scale with team size. However those were implemented as such to make it easier for marines. So boosting those will in turn make it harder for marines once more. It is a delicate balance we're talking about (public play vs competitive play once more), Also the Skulk is free, samegoes for a freshly spawned marine of course, but there is team res spend on his end game capabilities. Free Skulks will remain free throughout the match, this is part of the no scaling bit I guess...
I also see a lot of "equal skill vs equal skill -> 1v1". I mean this game is about teamplay, where a group of Skulk that do a good ambush will have the advantage. This is is a group vs group game and if you're skilled enough you can try and take on multiple enemies...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off it is not the early game play marine vs skulk but rather the limited tactics available. Not sure if by ambush you mean camp on a ceiling till a marine enters the room, if that is the case try looking at your minimap as you enter the room or have your map up; as long as the alien is in you LOS he/she shows up. You remember that feeling of how the hell did they see me? Ya that is how. Even the marine comm can see you when the marine enters the room.
The focus argument has a huge flaw and problem that people are missing from NS1 that is in order to get focus it required a chamber dropped. This chamber was known as the sensory chamber which gave alot more benefits then just focus. It also provided aliens with cloaking and a free scent of fear if the marines where in range of the chamber. It required 3 chambers to provide the full effect of focus. So alien typically would place these chambers in strategic vents or under floors where marines couldn't easily locate and kill them and gave the aliens control over those areas. NS 2 chambers have to be placed out in the open and only placed by the comm. The easiest way for marines to counter this in NS1 was to rush motion tracking and mines. This is what I mean by tactics NS 2 tactics are extremely limited. This is where UWE needs to focus alot of their time creating more tactics and counters not trying to put both sides on equal footing.
I don't think it was the original intention, but essentialy skulks are now balanced around dying often and respawning quickly; which unfortunately is not a whole lot of fun for the skulk players.
It isn't really a surprise either, when you consider that skulks are bigger and slower than their NS1 counterparts, yet they have identical health/armor values and are expected to be played for a longer period of time, with pres lifeforms arriving on average 6 minutes later in NS2 than NS1.
Suggestion in one sentence: Remove wavespawning and make skulks faster and tougher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks need skill-based movement. Might as well make them have leap at the start.
NS2 needs skill-based movement :P
Skulks, while free, die easily. The respawn timer is the same for EVERY life form. Which means every time a skulk dies, its a 12 second + wait till they can rejoin the game. Add in the fact that evolving traits also takes additional time, it winds up being around 14 - 15 seconds of downtime after each death.
You don't gain res while dead. This means every time you die, you lose out on 12 seconds of res you would of gained otherwise.
Skulks get weaker as the game progresses. Marines get more armor and more attack power. Making it even easier for aliens in general to die, but harder for them to get a kill.
This doesn't really encourage expendable gameplay. Its not fun rushing into a fight just to die quickly. You have to be far superior to the person you're fighting in order to win against them. By trying to rush in and die for the cause, you basically are gimping yourself in the future. Pushing back when you'll get a new form if you die. Its a bit too punishing at the moment I feel for aliens in general.
And as a higher lifeform not named Onos, you will die less because you'll be paranoid about losing your pres investment.
I don't expect any major changes since we are not in beta anymore. I think the best thing to do right now is to teach and organize attacks with people. At least personally I'm trying to communicate more with my team in the future. I can only hope that new players have patience to learn and hang on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats what I don't understand though. They AREN'T somewhat expendable AT ALL. Seriously half of the posts on this thread keep saying they are expendable, its not true at all. Honestly its better to get to 5 hp and walk across the map heal and walk back because you can do it faster than you will have spawned and evolved. Do many people do it ? Heck no, its boring and you feel useless cause you are doing nothing objectively for your team. I'd like someone to explain to me EXACTLY how aliens are more expendable then marines. Cause as it stands aliens :
1. When dead they recieve no Rez so they are actively losing rez.
2. They have a longer spawning time so when you go for a 1 for 1 trade the number of players alive for Marines will be higher in the short run.
3. Marines can get around the map faster with phase gates.
They aren't expendable. They are nothing like zerglings. Zerglings spawn in batches of 2 for 50 minerals. Zerglings hatch time is smaller. Zerglings require less tech to be built.
Aliens in the current game are nothing like zerglings but it FEELS like they should be because they are weak as ######.
So please enlighten me, atleast 10 people have said it without telling me WHY are skulks expendable ?
Then somehow out of sheer luck, they get put on the alien team and they cant even go equal K/D let alone more kills than deaths.
Very rarely do i see an alien have more Kill than deaths.
It doesnt fit the game as it stands atm.
I also dont understand why people says skulks are okay to die, its really not, you loose res, it takes ages to respawn, you have to evolve the mutations you have to get back to where you were. that is like 1 min atleast.
Marine respawn get everything instantly, and then steps into Phase gate, so basically as marine it never takes more than 10 sec to get back into the same spot vs 1 min or so. wonderful.
lets say it again. You cannot go around dying as skulk, you will loose so much res.
Maybe its time to let skulks or aliens in general regen res when dead, if skulks are just supposed to be cannon fodder.
So why can't a skulk with all 3 evolutions and an overhwelming advantage over the marines map-wise not feel as effective? Even the 50pres fade doesn't feel justified for the cost. The stuff that marines can buy with 50pres would most likely cancel out the fade's effectiveness anyway.
I'll admit I've never tried playing a fade myself outside of explore mode, but I've seen how they work and I've seen the difference between good/bad fades, and even the good fades are effective against groups of marines for a very small window if you can get one on the field early enough.
The current standard is for a group of 4-5 skulks to find the strongest group of marines and just die as quickly as they can hoping to take one out before there is a marine push team close to the hive. I realize this is arguably necessary... but there's a lot more metagame to be explored in forcing the marines to be more diligent with base defense as well. The timings are just utterly unknown right now aside from knowing the 6 minute onos. The feeling I really got was aliens consistently trying to react to marines, which is absurd considering the map advantage they possess. Skulks are consistently attempting to play for positional advantages to win a battle that they really don't even need to fight.
I'm not going to argue against alien buffs, if they come, I don't think it will hurt the game too much to balance in response to the current meta-game, but the reality is that part of the problem is that alien is a lot less figured out than marines right now. At some point the meta-game at the highest levels will shift and aliens will start to get a lot more mileage out of their mobility than they are currently able to.
God only knows where that leaves pubs.
The combination of marine sprint speed, fast respawns and small maps (relative to NS1) removes a lot of the alien mobility advantage.
I think you are wholely underestimating the complete and brutal advantage marines have in almost every area early game (assuming equal skill levels). You see aliens moving in groups of 4-5 because that is the only way to be <b>reasonably sure</b> you can kill a group of 2-3 marines. You know those marines that go 50-2 in public servers, this is facing a team of them. Attempting to be aggressive as aliens early on is good in theory, but in competitive matches the alien team is seconds from being egg locked in their hive at any moment which makes aggressive play very risky.
It is much like marines developing to now play more defensively, researching mines first, always holding res for a beacon. Aliens now cannot afford to be too aggressive or they can lose early too.
I don't think the skulk-vs-marine play is heavy unbalanced right now. But it is to some extent, that makes skulk-play less fun than marine play. The other alien life forms may balance the teams again. But I don't like this design. I think a vanilla skulk should be toe on toe with a vanilla marine.
I think this can be achieved by easy tweakes. Like making the skulk model a bit smaller.
But at the same time I do not see skulks needing a significant buff, sure it is difficult, but you just need to make sure you move around a lot more and not do a beeline to a marine. Of course this said, there is some addressing needed to ensure late game a skulk is on par with a marine even when they are struggling with a single hive and trying to retake territory.
- Skulk vs marine should be about 50% (+/- 10% maybe) : it's more fun, it's more fair. It should be so across skill level, player count, and possibly tech progression (not too sure about this one, because you might need "room" for higher lifeforms).
- In order to measure skulk vs marine one has to use balance teams, with different skill level, in controlled and well designed conditions. Personal anecdotes ("e.g. I can kill noob marines on this random server") are useless.
- Once the skulk vs marine is balanced the rest of the game can be changed accordingly.
it's easy to dodge attacks from 3-4 marines without dying, even if they're experienced, ofcourse, dodging alone won't help but you need help of your team while you take fire they'll kill.
when it's 1v1 i usually win with skulk, because marine wastes clip shooting air and then i put in few well aimed bites and and he's dead, most of the time commander is spamming healthpacks if he wins.
in endgame however, skulks cannot compare to marine with a3 and w3 with jetpacks / shotguns etc, but skulks aren't useless even then, they can kill rt's quite easily, support onoses / fades while they draw fire you go to their legs and bite them.