I don't like alien commander
dota girl
Join Date: 2012-11-07 Member: 167954Members
Join Date: 2012-11-07 Member: 167954Members
My biggest issue with it is that it's boring, and many facets of alien gameplay have been rendered completely unintuitive simply to justify there being a commander. Researching abilities, researching uprades, cyst chains, none of these really improve the game at all, they seem only to exist so the commander has something to do. As if the game was pulled apart and redesigned to fit around the commander role, not because the commander role seemed like a natural fit for aliens or the game itself.
In the handful of games I've played alien commander I've felt redundant. I drop nodes, and if we hold them I research things, typically in a set order, like celerity, hive, leap, carapace but the order really doesn't matter, and eventually I'll be researching everything worthwhile within a matter of minutes regardless of what I go with first or last.
Between that and fixing cyst chains I don't have any resources to do anything else. If we are really winning and have a huge node lead I can build support structures for people, but generally it's all kind of pointless, we've already won. I don't even have to talk, I may as well be an automaton while they play the game. If they keep the marines out of our side of the map we win, if not we lose.
That's ultimately my problem with alien comm, the games are decided largely without your input so long as you understand to press buttons to get upgrades. Meanwhile you have one less alien player because the opportunities to leave the hive are rare until much later when everything is researched, unlike with a permanent or temporary gorge player who is an active participant. Yes I can direct people, and I do if the team isn't communicating, but it's not nearly as important as with marine comm.
Maybe instead of jacking creep from SC2 they should have taken the queen or something? An active role that is above gorges and drops hives/chambers etc. You'd still have to fix gorges though. I would love to be a queen someday
In the handful of games I've played alien commander I've felt redundant. I drop nodes, and if we hold them I research things, typically in a set order, like celerity, hive, leap, carapace but the order really doesn't matter, and eventually I'll be researching everything worthwhile within a matter of minutes regardless of what I go with first or last.
Between that and fixing cyst chains I don't have any resources to do anything else. If we are really winning and have a huge node lead I can build support structures for people, but generally it's all kind of pointless, we've already won. I don't even have to talk, I may as well be an automaton while they play the game. If they keep the marines out of our side of the map we win, if not we lose.
That's ultimately my problem with alien comm, the games are decided largely without your input so long as you understand to press buttons to get upgrades. Meanwhile you have one less alien player because the opportunities to leave the hive are rare until much later when everything is researched, unlike with a permanent or temporary gorge player who is an active participant. Yes I can direct people, and I do if the team isn't communicating, but it's not nearly as important as with marine comm.
Maybe instead of jacking creep from SC2 they should have taken the queen or something? An active role that is above gorges and drops hives/chambers etc. You'd still have to fix gorges though. I would love to be a queen someday
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Also, Khamms can already do a lot of cool things with bone walls, especially when the marines over commit to a push.
It's very similar to the Sentry's force fields in SC2.
Like the Gorge, the Commander needs more "toys." He also simply needs more potential decisions to make. I think this might be a little alleviated when 6 minute onos is fixed. Then, we'll start seeing khammanders dictate strategy more often, since no one will be assuming what strategy will be taken.
The alternative would be giving gorges back the ability to drop hive / research upgrades. From NS1, all I remember is "IS ANYONE GOING TO DROP THE HIVE" and defense upgrades always being the first ones upgraded. The alien commander allows an unbiased selection of upgrades, so to benefit the team versus any single individuals preferred play style.
Also, instead of just cyst chaining and researching, practice <i>leading</i> your team. There are more than a few threads of people complaining that the alien commander position, but why? Why do you feel as if it is less than that of the marine commander? Both positions require upgrades & commander involvement. Heck, the main job of the commander should be to lead the team to complete team oriented objectives. Without a commander, people will run around aimlessly, trying to rack up kills instead of taking map control. Lead your team, create waypoints, congratulate them when they do well -- these are what a good commander does.
Have you tried using drifters to support your team?
You can pretty much get by alien commanding just by hopping in and out of the chair every so often once you have res for an upgrade. It's done in matches all the time. The alien commander is redundant and completely un-needed in the game. If UWE wants to keep alien commander (Which im sure they do) they need to add more timing aspects and micro. Cyst build times are stupid fast and too easy... it requires no timing to get up 3 RT's. Also you don't even need to mist researches... its just an added thing if you have too much res.
Alien comm is kinda boring, but you can make it fun by using drifters and doing funny things like using bone wall or making a shade near 4 whips... lulz.
uwe said they want to stay away from micro for khamm, but i agree they will need to do something like that to maintain interest for the player, unless they want it to be an exclusively temporary role.
aliens are quite under developed compared to marines - stuff being left out due to dev time, ideas implemented rather late in the beta and not fully fleshed out. it's going to take some time, but aliens are owed some dev focus. they'll get there.
These kind of problem can be very hard and thus very interesting. I even made the cyst prototype, <a href="http://www.openprocessing.org/sketch/27777" target="_blank">http://www.openprocessing.org/sketch/27777</a>
But then I realized that this idea was flawed, mainly because the map constraints completely the topology of the network; maps have pretty much a room-hallway structure that determine where you need to put you cysts. As a result optimal cysting is very easy and can be done by someone with a functional brain at the first attempt. Not much to practice, experiment or think about there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe instead of jacking creep from SC2 they should have taken the queen or something? An active role that is above gorges and drops hives/chambers etc. You'd still have to fix gorges though. I would love to be a queen someday<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think some people though about the queen idea during the beta, it could be an interesting one. You would go into the hive, evolve and drop off as a super gorgy with building powers. It would work a bit like a king/queen in chess, an important piece for the marines to kill, and important for the aliens to protect. Field commander is superior to the top-down alien in some aspect, for example you can build stuff in on the wall and ceiling.
Charlie Cleveland im sorry to say but the gameplay in ns2 is just not very strategic. The gameplay needs to be reworked. Just because you have released the game doesn't mean you cant change it drastically. In general the gameplay needs to be faster. So both players and commanders.
And charlie i dont know why you think ns1 was bad? ns1 is 1000times better then ns2 gameplay wise. You will never balance the game for all player counts! Wont happen in ns1 and WONT happen in ns2. It's an asymmetric game! its impossible to balance! The only thing you can do is make it fair and strategic.
this might have been a cool idea, but khamm had a lot of inertia. the multi-khamm concept would also argue against the change early on. good ideas get discarded for 'fundamental reasons'. but when the fundamental reason is discarded later, it's rare for the good, but bold idea to come back.
<!--quoteo(post=2020897:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:14 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 12 2012, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok tbh the alien commander can be fixed but to do this the entire alien team needs to be reworked a bit. <b>First and foremost we need to remove creep. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and stopped reading. you know that proposal has <b>zero </b> chance of happening in NS2.
If there really has to be a tech component I would rather see the lifeforms themselves be tech purchases. At least that way it's never a mystery when you'll get your abilities, you know you can't go that lifeform because the comm hasn't researched it.
fwiw: I also played NS1 10 years ago. For about 3-4 years.
Indeed. A lot of alien commanders miss the smaller and synergistic elements. It's a rare game I see a drifter spawned, let alone actually used. A drifter supported push on a base power node is very powerful, and that's 100% the control of the commander.
Yes Bone Wall is largely defensive, but in that role it is very powerful in not only delaying attackers but splitting them up as well for easier takedown of Exo's or just large assault groups.
Another aspect of alien commanding I rarely see is upgraded whips that throw big bile bombs. Those things destroy exo's. Sure a gorge with Bilebomb is more potent, but a couple of upgraded whips in a hive is gonna destroy an exo is 3-4 hits. Since they are used so infrequently, I've comm'd a couple of games where marines actually ignore my upgraded whips thinking they are out of range while their armor/exo's get destroyed. Made me laugh :)
Building on that, whip rushes on a base (particularly upgraded whips) can be devastating. Marines see an Onos and get all tunnelvisioned on it, while your whips root themselves and start obliterating their base. Won several games that way.
Creating forward healing/energy/stealth points is crucial as well. Getting them up quickly with nutrient cloud helps immensely (rarely see nutrient cloud used)
Forward egg spawns for faster skulk rushes is another tactic that is comm controlled.
And above all, constant communication is a game winner. As the commander you know far more then any individual player whats going on. If your team isn't willing to listen to you well you can't fix stupid, but keeping a constant stream of where marines are and where your looking to expand to can help "herd the skulks" so to speak :)
I actually think bone wall is really cool, but it is VERY limited by the on infestation requirement, and its also damn expensive for close games. Maybe a reduction to 1 or 2 res is in order.
I admit that the drifter enzyme cloud is pretty much exactly what I am asking for but it is limited it so many ways.
1) You have to have a drifter at the point of combat and to be honest, its usually pretty hard to predict where combat is going to occur except obviously if your launching an attack.
2) Drifter + enzyme cloud combines to cost 5 Tres, a HUGE cost for a measley 25% attack speed boost when most people already can't use their full attack speed to accurately attack marines. Even if you assume the drifter lives every time, thats still 2 res for a crappy ability.
2.1) Attack speed boost kind of sucks as a buff for aliens for the reason above
I would love to see alien commanders able to drop a temporary movement speed buff (maybe 20%) for 1 res like medpacks. That way alien comms would just have way more stuff to do, and maybe shift hive/leap first would be a little less important as an added bonus.
Or make the infestation start latching on to peoples feet in a small area slowing movement down a ton. Jumppacks and xenos also immune to this.
Furthermore, I think that cyst placement is boring and flawed. Infestation should grow automatically around structures and structures should not starve when they are disconnected from a hive. (== a lot of structures => a lot of infestation) To clean up infestation you should destroy the structure that grows it. Building structures should require infestation as it does now, but to build anywhere, there should be an ability to deploy infestation anywhere, maybe with some sort of "infestation bomb" drifter or gorge ability. Cysts could stay in the game to fertilize infestation growth in some areas.
To summarize, gorges would be the backbone of the team again, and emphasis on "temp commanding" to support the rest of the team with legacy commander functions.
wrong, but eh feel free not to look at the menus.
Did you have anything productive to contribute? If you watch competitive games you'll frequently see the comm leave the hive to go fight for prolonged periods of time.
I enjoy khammander but each to their own I guess. I do like the idea of Ink, enzyme and umbra on Drifters. Would promote their use much more than now.
That being said, the idea of Gorges being the structure backbone again sounds fun. I never played NS1 but I can definitely see the appeal of having a class that's all about expansion and support from an FPS perspective rather than the (as someone else put it) gardening style of the current Khammander.
When you're the alien commander your primary focus is somewhat different; you need to put HEAVY emphasis on offensive/defensive coordination, controlling the idle resource flow by including your teammates in the decision process, conception and fast&accurate execution of very creative strategies and instructively directing actions to synchronize and maximize the efficiency of coordinated efforts.
As far as it being 'fun' or not, well that's highly subjective. There are plenty of people that think being alien commander is the most fun you can have in NS2, myself included. I won't lie and say it's perfect, but it has all the necessary tools to get the job done and be fun while doing it. Anything they add on will be gravy.
I see a ton of alien commanders that never spawn a single drifter, never build a single whip, and don't build any structures. Can such a commander win? Of course. Are they helping as much as they could? Certainly not. They aren't saving for an early Onos either, they're just suboptimal commanders. In time, more commanders will learn the more advanced options and the complaints will recede.
As a final point, I see <i>very</i> few players that go gorge, and even fewer gorges that will actually interact with the commander. If you think whips and forward structures are useless, it's because you don't have a competent gorge helping you out. Team work is still rewarded as a gorge, you just gotta work with the hive a little. A gorge healing a few whips while covering them with Hydra's behind a clog can hold off <i>several</i> marines, depending on the situation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you're the alien commander your primary focus is somewhat different; you need to put HEAVY emphasis on offensive/defensive coordination, controlling the idle resource flow by including your teammates in the decision process, conception of very creative strategies and instructively directing actions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I view alien command as being an enabler. You enable your team to do what they do best, while supporting them with structures and watching the places where they aren't. There are strategies certainly, but if you have a player that is an amazing fade you want to get him blink before leap. Aliens, more than marines, requires your team to be vocal in what they can do. My job as commander is made infinitely easier if one or two team-mate's step up and coordinate the skulks running around with them. It's a 'boots on the ground' leadership dynamic, since it's all about timing your attacks as skulks. I can lead a skulk to marines, but I can't make them slaughter. Good players don't need to be prodded to work together a lot of the time, whereas bad players won't listen no matter what the circumstance.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That being said, the idea of Gorges being the structure backbone again sounds fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge is an area denial / heavy assault specialist right now. Bile bomb is one of the single best abilities in NS2, and yet is one of the most underused life forms in public play. For 10 P.Res, it is quite possibly the best upgrade you can buy if you like stopping the Marines cold. You might not kill them all immediately, but unless they charge en masse you have a very good chance at killing them all eventually. (Did you know heal spray damages marines, and can be fired through your clog walls? Weakens marines for your Hydra's on the other side when they inevitably push through. Spit also does <i>a ton</i> of damage if you can hit someone with it.)
When you're the alien commander your primary focus is somewhat different; you need to put HEAVY emphasis on offensive/defensive coordination, controlling the idle resource flow by including your teammates in the decision process, conception and fast&accurate execution of very creative strategies and instructively directing actions to synchronize and maximize the efficiency of coordinated efforts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that was probably the most vague paragraph I've read in my entire life
I don't put too much effort into making solid explanations, and connections to underlying facts, of what I say. :/