I don't like alien commander

dota girldota girl Join Date: 2012-11-07 Member: 167954Members
edited November 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
My biggest issue with it is that it's boring, and many facets of alien gameplay have been rendered completely unintuitive simply to justify there being a commander. Researching abilities, researching uprades, cyst chains, none of these really improve the game at all, they seem only to exist so the commander has something to do. As if the game was pulled apart and redesigned to fit around the commander role, not because the commander role seemed like a natural fit for aliens or the game itself.

In the handful of games I've played alien commander I've felt redundant. I drop nodes, and if we hold them I research things, typically in a set order, like celerity, hive, leap, carapace but the order really doesn't matter, and eventually I'll be researching everything worthwhile within a matter of minutes regardless of what I go with first or last.

Between that and fixing cyst chains I don't have any resources to do anything else. If we are really winning and have a huge node lead I can build support structures for people, but generally it's all kind of pointless, we've already won. I don't even have to talk, I may as well be an automaton while they play the game. If they keep the marines out of our side of the map we win, if not we lose.

That's ultimately my problem with alien comm, the games are decided largely without your input so long as you understand to press buttons to get upgrades. Meanwhile you have one less alien player because the opportunities to leave the hive are rare until much later when everything is researched, unlike with a permanent or temporary gorge player who is an active participant. Yes I can direct people, and I do if the team isn't communicating, but it's not nearly as important as with marine comm.

Maybe instead of jacking creep from SC2 they should have taken the queen or something? An active role that is above gorges and drops hives/chambers etc. You'd still have to fix gorges though. I would love to be a queen someday
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Comments

  • Onii-chanOnii-chan Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7164Members
    Khamms indeed might need a few more toys to actively interact with the game, we'll see as the metagame evolves and more competent Khamms start surfacing.

    Also, Khamms can already do a lot of cool things with bone walls, especially when the marines over commit to a push.
    It's very similar to the Sentry's force fields in SC2.
  • nSidianSidia Join Date: 2012-08-15 Member: 155651Members
    Needs more micro and not the dumb kind like bone wall and mist.
  • NikolaiLevNikolaiLev Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165658Members
    Yeah, pretty much. I can't think of any way to fix it, unfortunately. I can only agree the alien commander feels wholly unnecessary and "tacked on."

    Like the Gorge, the Commander needs more "toys." He also simply needs more potential decisions to make. I think this might be a little alleviated when 6 minute onos is fixed. Then, we'll start seeing khammanders dictate strategy more often, since no one will be assuming what strategy will be taken.
  • SmellyPantsSmellyPants Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166704Members
    I personally love the alien commander, more so than the marines. Sure, the beginning is basically cyst chaining, harvester building, and upgrade researching, but later on it's about strategically placing your shifts and other upgrade towers.

    The alternative would be giving gorges back the ability to drop hive / research upgrades. From NS1, all I remember is "IS ANYONE GOING TO DROP THE HIVE" and defense upgrades always being the first ones upgraded. The alien commander allows an unbiased selection of upgrades, so to benefit the team versus any single individuals preferred play style.

    Also, instead of just cyst chaining and researching, practice <i>leading</i> your team. There are more than a few threads of people complaining that the alien commander position, but why? Why do you feel as if it is less than that of the marine commander? Both positions require upgrades & commander involvement. Heck, the main job of the commander should be to lead the team to complete team oriented objectives. Without a commander, people will run around aimlessly, trying to rack up kills instead of taking map control. Lead your team, create waypoints, congratulate them when they do well -- these are what a good commander does.
  • enmokuenmoku Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168645Members
    edited November 2012
    Bone wall is purely defensive tho, khamm has little to do for helping the offensive except for somehow managing the enzyme, which is not always viable.
  • TunskaTunska Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14176Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2020768:date=Nov 12 2012, 04:05 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 12 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Needs more micro and not the dumb kind like bone wall and mist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Have you tried using drifters to support your team?
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    Build 206 alien commander was the most skill based. It required you to put upgrades close and time mist's to be on top of your game.

    You can pretty much get by alien commanding just by hopping in and out of the chair every so often once you have res for an upgrade. It's done in matches all the time. The alien commander is redundant and completely un-needed in the game. If UWE wants to keep alien commander (Which im sure they do) they need to add more timing aspects and micro. Cyst build times are stupid fast and too easy... it requires no timing to get up 3 RT's. Also you don't even need to mist researches... its just an added thing if you have too much res.

    Alien comm is kinda boring, but you can make it fun by using drifters and doing funny things like using bone wall or making a shade near 4 whips... lulz.
  • extolloextollo Ping Blip Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72457Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2020794:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:26 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Nov 12 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If UWE wants to keep alien commander (Which im sure they do) they need to add more timing aspects and micro.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    uwe said they want to stay away from micro for khamm, but i agree they will need to do something like that to maintain interest for the player, unless they want it to be an exclusively temporary role.

    aliens are quite under developed compared to marines - stuff being left out due to dev time, ideas implemented rather late in the beta and not fully fleshed out. it's going to take some time, but aliens are owed some dev focus. they'll get there.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    When they introduced the cyst mechanism I was hoping for some kind of cool network flow problem, in which you would have to design smartly a mesh, like in the Settlers II, bridge builder or world of goo so that resources flow optimally from RT's to the hive, or whatever.
    These kind of problem can be very hard and thus very interesting. I even made the cyst prototype, <a href="http://www.openprocessing.org/sketch/27777" target="_blank">http://www.openprocessing.org/sketch/27777</a>

    But then I realized that this idea was flawed, mainly because the map constraints completely the topology of the network; maps have pretty much a room-hallway structure that determine where you need to put you cysts. As a result optimal cysting is very easy and can be done by someone with a functional brain at the first attempt. Not much to practice, experiment or think about there.


    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe instead of jacking creep from SC2 they should have taken the queen or something? An active role that is above gorges and drops hives/chambers etc. You'd still have to fix gorges though. I would love to be a queen someday<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think some people though about the queen idea during the beta, it could be an interesting one. You would go into the hive, evolve and drop off as a super gorgy with building powers. It would work a bit like a king/queen in chess, an important piece for the marines to kill, and important for the aliens to protect. Field commander is superior to the top-down alien in some aspect, for example you can build stuff in on the wall and ceiling.
  • nSidianSidia Join Date: 2012-08-15 Member: 155651Members
    edited November 2012
    Ok tbh the alien commander can be fixed but to do this the entire alien team needs to be reworked a bit. First and foremost we need to remove creep. We can bring it back later with some other gameplay aspect but right now we need to remove it. The alien commander needs to be able to build anywhere at anytime. Now to make this fair I think drifters need to be the builders again. Like they were way back in the beta. So you wanna drop a hive you send a drifter there and it will turn into the hive. Or you want to build anything you send a drifter. Now i think drifters also need to have abilities tied to chambers. You go for shade hive your drifters can use ink cloud. You go for crag hive your drifters can use umbra. You go for shift hive your drifters can use enzyme. So remove umbra from lerk and ink from shade. This will make using drifters in combat far more important. Also remove this stupid maturing thing with buildings. I drop a shift I want to use echo now! I drop a shade I want to use hallucinations now.


    Charlie Cleveland im sorry to say but the gameplay in ns2 is just not very strategic. The gameplay needs to be reworked. Just because you have released the game doesn't mean you cant change it drastically. In general the gameplay needs to be faster. So both players and commanders.

    And charlie i dont know why you think ns1 was bad? ns1 is 1000times better then ns2 gameplay wise. You will never balance the game for all player counts! Wont happen in ns1 and WONT happen in ns2. It's an asymmetric game! its impossible to balance! The only thing you can do is make it fair and strategic.
  • NeoRussiaNeoRussia Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154743Members
    nSidia is the hero that NS2 needs, but not the one that it deserves.
  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Members
    edited November 2012
    alien commander was purposely designed to require less micro/interaction but that doesn't mean there isn't a sufficient amount of it. i rarely see alien commanders make use of Shift and Shade abilities to directly help their team. You can make a strategy revolving around the use of Echo be as simple or complicated as you want it to be, and will be your end game res sink along with onos eggs. It's my personal favorite of the two because it resembles the "Majestic" RTS games in that it's buildings that require your attention more so than the units. If it's simply that boring then just stick with marine commander.
  • extolloextollo Ping Blip Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72457Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2020823:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:45 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 12 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think some people though about the queen idea during the beta, it could be an interesting one. You would go into the hive, evolve and drop off as a super gorgy with building powers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    this might have been a cool idea, but khamm had a lot of inertia. the multi-khamm concept would also argue against the change early on. good ideas get discarded for 'fundamental reasons'. but when the fundamental reason is discarded later, it's rare for the good, but bold idea to come back.

    <!--quoteo(post=2020897:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:14 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Nov 12 2012, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok tbh the alien commander can be fixed but to do this the entire alien team needs to be reworked a bit. <b>First and foremost we need to remove creep. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ... and stopped reading. you know that proposal has <b>zero </b> chance of happening in NS2.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    I think the alien tech tree is needlessly complicated. Researching individual abilities and individual upgrades seems unnecessary, everybody already knows the best build orders for this stuff anyway and the actual work involved to do it is trivial. All it does is add confusion and headaches. I go early Fade but my comm thinks Fades suck so I have to wait 10 minutes for Blink, etc... I think it should all be automatic - second hive abilities are available when the second hive goes up, upgrades are available when that hive evolves a specialty. Tweak the build times accordingly and focus the comm more on maintaining structures in the field and triggering active abilities. Asymmetry! As a bonus, you've now got three unused structure models to do cool things with instead of "put these behind your hive and hope the marines don't find them".

    If there really has to be a tech component I would rather see the lifeforms themselves be tech purchases. At least that way it's never a mystery when you'll get your abilities, you know you can't go that lifeform because the comm hasn't researched it.
  • itspreachitspreach Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164638Members
    I like alien commander. I like exploding cysts on marines right as my skulks go in. I like whip traps. I like using drifters to scout. I like building forward offensive bases with shades, crags for my team to assault a marine position. Alien commander has been the majority of my gameplay.

    fwiw: I also played NS1 10 years ago. For about 3-4 years.
  • DaxxDaxx Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 460Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2020790:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:20 AM:name=Tunska)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tunska @ Nov 12 2012, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you tried using drifters to support your team?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Indeed. A lot of alien commanders miss the smaller and synergistic elements. It's a rare game I see a drifter spawned, let alone actually used. A drifter supported push on a base power node is very powerful, and that's 100% the control of the commander.

    Yes Bone Wall is largely defensive, but in that role it is very powerful in not only delaying attackers but splitting them up as well for easier takedown of Exo's or just large assault groups.

    Another aspect of alien commanding I rarely see is upgraded whips that throw big bile bombs. Those things destroy exo's. Sure a gorge with Bilebomb is more potent, but a couple of upgraded whips in a hive is gonna destroy an exo is 3-4 hits. Since they are used so infrequently, I've comm'd a couple of games where marines actually ignore my upgraded whips thinking they are out of range while their armor/exo's get destroyed. Made me laugh :)

    Building on that, whip rushes on a base (particularly upgraded whips) can be devastating. Marines see an Onos and get all tunnelvisioned on it, while your whips root themselves and start obliterating their base. Won several games that way.

    Creating forward healing/energy/stealth points is crucial as well. Getting them up quickly with nutrient cloud helps immensely (rarely see nutrient cloud used)

    Forward egg spawns for faster skulk rushes is another tactic that is comm controlled.

    And above all, constant communication is a game winner. As the commander you know far more then any individual player whats going on. If your team isn't willing to listen to you well you can't fix stupid, but keeping a constant stream of where marines are and where your looking to expand to can help "herd the skulks" so to speak :)
  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
    edited November 2012
    I agree that alien commander needs some more active abilities. There is no justification for asymmetry for asymmetries sake. I would like to see some sort of useful powerup drop able by the commander in any position.

    I actually think bone wall is really cool, but it is VERY limited by the on infestation requirement, and its also damn expensive for close games. Maybe a reduction to 1 or 2 res is in order.

    I admit that the drifter enzyme cloud is pretty much exactly what I am asking for but it is limited it so many ways.

    1) You have to have a drifter at the point of combat and to be honest, its usually pretty hard to predict where combat is going to occur except obviously if your launching an attack.

    2) Drifter + enzyme cloud combines to cost 5 Tres, a HUGE cost for a measley 25% attack speed boost when most people already can't use their full attack speed to accurately attack marines. Even if you assume the drifter lives every time, thats still 2 res for a crappy ability.

    2.1) Attack speed boost kind of sucks as a buff for aliens for the reason above

    I would love to see alien commanders able to drop a temporary movement speed buff (maybe 20%) for 1 res like medpacks. That way alien comms would just have way more stuff to do, and maybe shift hive/leap first would be a little less important as an added bonus.
  • LayLowLayLow Join Date: 2012-02-24 Member: 147323Members
    would be nice if alien commander for a good amount of resources can make the infestation acidic on s small area. It could do small amounts of dmg but starts stripping armor. Exo are immune to this ability

    Or make the infestation start latching on to peoples feet in a small area slowing movement down a ton. Jumppacks and xenos also immune to this.
  • mokkatmokkat Join Date: 2009-08-30 Member: 68652Members
    edited November 2012
    I do enjoy the "gardener" approach of the alien commander, as opposed to the active role of the marine one - what I don't like is the over complicated tech-tree and the fact that aliens are barely holding their own against marines right now if disorganized. Often I see Khamms that have to rely on cumbersome chat/voicechat commanding to keep the riners at bay, because the "threat, expanding, heal" functions are bad compared to all the tools available for the marine commander, and because the amount of events that trigger team-wide alerts and the info provided by them are both inadequate
  • jeffcojeffco Join Date: 2011-02-14 Member: 81785Members
    The ability to drop eggs has to go. Right now, khamm is limited to building harvestors, onos eggs, upgrades, onos eggs, trades, onos eggs and some bone wall and drifter play. Do you remember the ESL finals? Not a single support chamber was build that day!

    Furthermore, I think that cyst placement is boring and flawed. Infestation should grow automatically around structures and structures should not starve when they are disconnected from a hive. (== a lot of structures => a lot of infestation) To clean up infestation you should destroy the structure that grows it. Building structures should require infestation as it does now, but to build anywhere, there should be an ability to deploy infestation anywhere, maybe with some sort of "infestation bomb" drifter or gorge ability. Cysts could stay in the game to fertilize infestation growth in some areas.
  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Members
    I had posted a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124240" target="_blank">suggestion</a> about the alien commander.

    To summarize, gorges would be the backbone of the team again, and emphasis on "temp commanding" to support the rest of the team with legacy commander functions.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2020777:date=Nov 12 2012, 09:10 AM:name=enmoku)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (enmoku @ Nov 12 2012, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->khamm has little to do for helping the offensive except for somehow managing the enzyme, which is not always viable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    wrong, but eh feel free not to look at the menus.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2021039:date=Nov 12 2012, 02:29 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Nov 12 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wrong, but eh feel free not to look at the menus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Did you have anything productive to contribute? If you watch competitive games you'll frequently see the comm leave the hive to go fight for prolonged periods of time.
  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I love the quick "creep progression". I can creep up to a second hive and 3 more extractors in the first minute and take them. It eventually snowballs into a third hive and then support structure gluttony. At any point I feel we can solidly secure, I just crag/shift/shade it up with some whips. Sometimes I mix in Drifters.

    I enjoy khammander but each to their own I guess. I do like the idea of Ink, enzyme and umbra on Drifters. Would promote their use much more than now.
  • BearTornadoBearTornado Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166223Members
    I made a thread last night in Ideas and Suggestions on giving the infestation/bacterium more functionality than just creating build space for structures. You can check it out here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124293" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124293</a>


    That being said, the idea of Gorges being the structure backbone again sounds fun. I never played NS1 but I can definitely see the appeal of having a class that's all about expansion and support from an FPS perspective rather than the (as someone else put it) gardening style of the current Khammander.
  • VitdomVitdom Join Date: 2012-04-30 Member: 151345Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    The alien commander's role is very different from the marine commander's because the communication needs to be more extensive than the marines'. As the marine commander your primary focus as a commander is to direct players and seizing map control + at the same time improving your team's status in any way you can.

    When you're the alien commander your primary focus is somewhat different; you need to put HEAVY emphasis on offensive/defensive coordination, controlling the idle resource flow by including your teammates in the decision process, conception and fast&accurate execution of very creative strategies and instructively directing actions to synchronize and maximize the efficiency of coordinated efforts.
  • SpaceJewSpaceJew Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
    edited November 2012
    Comparing Pub games to competitive play is something you should never do. At the very least because of the difference in team size. Can you honestly tell me that in a server with 12 people per team you have time to get out of the hive for long periods of time and do something else? If you do, GG, because your Cyst chains will be in tatters after a minute. On top of that, why build chambers at forward positions in a competitive game? It's all rushing, rushing, rushing, with no time to stop for two seconds and heal. 'Hit and run' doesn't seem to be the mantra of competitive play, instead it's rush as quickly as you can and kill as many of the other team as you can. At least, that's how it looks to me.

    As far as it being 'fun' or not, well that's highly subjective. There are plenty of people that think being alien commander is the most fun you can have in NS2, myself included. I won't lie and say it's perfect, but it has all the necessary tools to get the job done and be fun while doing it. Anything they add on will be gravy.

    I see a ton of alien commanders that never spawn a single drifter, never build a single whip, and don't build any structures. Can such a commander win? Of course. Are they helping as much as they could? Certainly not. They aren't saving for an early Onos either, they're just suboptimal commanders. In time, more commanders will learn the more advanced options and the complaints will recede.

    As a final point, I see <i>very</i> few players that go gorge, and even fewer gorges that will actually interact with the commander. If you think whips and forward structures are useless, it's because you don't have a competent gorge helping you out. Team work is still rewarded as a gorge, you just gotta work with the hive a little. A gorge healing a few whips while covering them with Hydra's behind a clog can hold off <i>several</i> marines, depending on the situation.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you're the alien commander your primary focus is somewhat different; you need to put HEAVY emphasis on offensive/defensive coordination, controlling the idle resource flow by including your teammates in the decision process, conception of very creative strategies and instructively directing actions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I view alien command as being an enabler. You enable your team to do what they do best, while supporting them with structures and watching the places where they aren't. There are strategies certainly, but if you have a player that is an amazing fade you want to get him blink before leap. Aliens, more than marines, requires your team to be vocal in what they can do. My job as commander is made infinitely easier if one or two team-mate's step up and coordinate the skulks running around with them. It's a 'boots on the ground' leadership dynamic, since it's all about timing your attacks as skulks. I can lead a skulk to marines, but I can't make them slaughter. Good players don't need to be prodded to work together a lot of the time, whereas bad players won't listen no matter what the circumstance.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That being said, the idea of Gorges being the structure backbone again sounds fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Gorge is an area denial / heavy assault specialist right now. Bile bomb is one of the single best abilities in NS2, and yet is one of the most underused life forms in public play. For 10 P.Res, it is quite possibly the best upgrade you can buy if you like stopping the Marines cold. You might not kill them all immediately, but unless they charge en masse you have a very good chance at killing them all eventually. (Did you know heal spray damages marines, and can be fired through your clog walls? Weakens marines for your Hydra's on the other side when they inevitably push through. Spit also does <i>a ton</i> of damage if you can hit someone with it.)
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=2021098:date=Nov 12 2012, 11:43 AM:name=Vitdom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vitdom @ Nov 12 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien commander's role is very different from the marine commander's because the communication needs to be more extensive than the marines'. With the marine commander your primary focus as a commander is to direct players and seizing map control + at the same time improving your team's strategic status in any way you can.

    When you're the alien commander your primary focus is somewhat different; you need to put HEAVY emphasis on offensive/defensive coordination, controlling the idle resource flow by including your teammates in the decision process, conception and fast&accurate execution of very creative strategies and instructively directing actions to synchronize and maximize the efficiency of coordinated efforts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    that was probably the most vague paragraph I've read in my entire life
  • VitdomVitdom Join Date: 2012-04-30 Member: 151345Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2021112:date=Nov 12 2012, 08:54 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 12 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that was probably the most vague paragraph I've read in my entire life<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't put too much effort into making solid explanations, and connections to underlying facts, of what I say. :/
  • cake.cake. Join Date: 2012-01-12 Member: 140165Members
    Fellas, you cray-cray. I like both commander systems.
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