Cant undestand where all the complaints are coming from?
neilm86
Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67198Members
Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67198Members
I played about 15 games today and i can safely say each one was an epic struggle that went back and forward so many times. I won games as alien and as rine, i lose games as alien and as marines. I think there might be very slight imbalances but as long as your team can COMMUNICATE and co-ordinate attacks you have a good chance of winning.
Totally loving the game and don't want to see too many drastic changes in the future i think its pretty good the way it is atm.
Totally loving the game and don't want to see too many drastic changes in the future i think its pretty good the way it is atm.
Comments
You may not agree with them still, but you'll understand them.
Rather, the common gripe is that Aliens are less fun in NS2 because of limited strategic options.
Totally loving the game and don't want to see too many drastic changes in the future i think its pretty good the way it is atm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I envy you. I played 10 matches today. 6 were stomps 4 were close. I don't think the stomps were anyones fault to be honest. One team just got the early map control took around 6 rts while the other team held around 3 and that was basically it. It was independent of the team aliens or marines. Its just how the snowballing nature of the game works and the pacing. I was on the losing side of 2 of those stomps and it felt like we were behind the whole time. We had mics for the most part, we communicated but we just couldn't get map control. We did deserve to lose and I'm not arguing that but it came down to the first 5 minutes that determined the game. Uneven trades, poor spawn positions and an inability to set up a forward stronghold really can just be GG. Yes there are comebacks from that but if a team plays well with that 6-7 rez node to 3 rez node you will lose.
This, the game isn't necessarily bad.
But the aliens could certainly use a little more flexibility strategically.
i've seen a commented game last 50min with aliens holding only 3 res the whole game and they even managed to win, skulks are good at destroying RTs
I guess one of the 'problems' is that the game is designed to give the losing team a chance to come back, and win against all odds. This also happens!! But in order for this to be possible, it also means that games where such a comeback doesn't happen can seem to go on for 5-10 minutes after it's lost. So I don't think this is anything that should be fixed or changed.
FTFY
Seriously. You need a pair of 20/20 nostalgia glasses to be a whiny NS1 vet who thinks that all the other old players are sharing his delusion.
Seriously. You need a pair of 20/20 nostalgia glasses to be a whiny NS1 vet who thinks that all the other old players are sharing his delusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's a reason NS1 lasted for 10 years
Nostalgia over the golden age of NS1... golden ages are never as golden as we remember them.
New players having not played the game enough matches to truly appreciate the balance.
New commanders learning the role and their ability to influence the gameplay.
There are some definate map imbalances, such as Veil and Refinery.
There's a bit of WWI mentality in the player base as well, with many people concentrating on the "front lines". The game is all about momentum in my opinion... when the other team has the momentum the commonest strategy seems to be to try and slow down the opposing teams momentum, and then slowly reverse it. Really though some brazen attacks behind the enemy "front lines" are much more effectively strategically. This will eventually go away though, leaders(both commanders and players) will step up and start leading groups into those brazen momentum shifting attacks.
You may not agree with them still, but you'll understand them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand that <i>some</i> NS1 players feel that they wanted a game they could jump into and have zero difference from a ten year old HL1 mod, yes. I also understand that some NS1 players think that NS2 is a far superior game. Myself included. Whoops! Looks like not everyone that played NS1 agrees with you. I think it's the rose-colored classes of hind sight and ten years time, but I remember plenty of matches where no one went Gorge until it was too late or someone trolled your team and dropped sensory first even though no one wanted it. I also remember gorges clogging up the insides of vents with OC's and DC's that were completely useless and limited the defense you could put somewhere useful nearby. I'm sure after ten years most of the noob got filtered out, but there is no denying it was a problem for NS1. That, and nobody wants to spend their P.Res on structures when the marines spend P.Res for shotguns. Some people might want to do that, but they are in a very tiny minority.
<!--quoteo(post=2021080:date=Nov 12 2012, 01:16 PM:name=Pueidist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pueidist @ Nov 12 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there's a reason NS1 lasted for 10 years<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it was an entirely free mod to a game that literally everyone owned at the time? Or maybe because the HL1 engine was easy for an entire generation of mod-lovers to play with? Not to mention all the inherent flaws in the HL1 engine that manifested themselves so painfully in NS1 such as bunnyhopping marines that moved faster than upgraded skulks. I'm not saying NS1 wasn't great, it was. There were other reasons at play other than simply the greatness of the mod. But doing a carbon copy with updated graphics has proven to be a failure every time a game company tries it, unless the name of the game just so happens to be Halo. (HINT: Even Halo is being updated.)
NS1 offers 10 years of evidence of what makes good, solid and fun gameplay in this kind of game, and this specific IP. To ignore lessons learned and how things worked there is ignorant. That said, NS1 was not perfect and had many flaws, so there is no reason to no attempt to improve upon them, but to do so in the way the UWE has with NS2 does not make sense to me. They have shown great interest and passion in improving the game, much like NS1. In that sense i do hope that NS2 will continue to improve, my biggest fear being that once the game does get extremely enjoyable and competitive, that it will have already outlived its time in the spotlight and it will suffer a similar fate as NS1 did.
PS an alien commander can go drop 5 instant whips in the main hive or do other completely trollish things, using that as a supporting reason for the alien commander is incorrect and untrue. There are other reasons why the AC is an improvement (well, why it COULD be an improvement), but griefing prevention is not one of them.
<!--quoteo(post=2020315:date=Nov 11 2012, 07:05 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 11 2012, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2020315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>You may not agree with them still</b>, but you'll understand them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2021134:date=Nov 12 2012, 01:16 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 12 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's the rose-colored classes of hind sight and ten years time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would apply if I were going solely based on memory, but I've played Natural Selection 2 vanilla for a long while, and I've played Natural Selection Classic for not-quite-as-long. I no longer play 2 if I can help it, just Classic. So there are no rose-colored glasses, because this is something that is currently happening in the present.
Please, tell me more about how a ten year old HL1 Mod that used an entirely different engine and went through tons of revisions is the most perfect vision of NS2's future.
Know why it stopped changing? It wasn't because they perfected balance, it's because they started developing a new game instead. If NS1 was still supported, you would continue to see changing game balance to this day. I think the modders that took to NS1 with a vengeance is proof of that. Playing a 'stock' game of NS1 was a lot different than playing on an actual server, which often times were <i>heavily modded</i> to the tastes of the server admin and to a select group of players. It's happening in NS2 as well, it will just take time to catch to up ten years worth of modded content. Oh, and what was the first thing the modder community did? They took a giant step backwards and redid NS1. Hell of a tribute to the developers, for sure, but it add's <i>none</i> of the heavily implemented mods that became the actual 'norm' of NS1 such as LerkLift. I argue that there <i>is</i> no actual vanilla NS1 to be nostalgic about. Only a modded server that you liked.
Hell, now that I think about it there wasn't a single 'stock' NS1 server last time I checked. (Admittedly that was like six years ago.) Maybe for 'competitive' players, but lets be honest for a second. 'Competitive' is hard to take serious when there were such massive issues in the engine that it broke game balance. Again, I quote you bunny hopping marines. This was a physics engine <i>exploit</i> in the HL1 engine. It was not a feature, it was an unfixable bug in the system itself. This is why I laugh at those who beg for it's return.
<!--quoteo(post=2021147:date=Nov 12 2012, 02:25 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 12 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2021147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would apply if I were going solely based on memory, but I've played Natural Selection 2 vanilla for a long while, and I've played Natural Selection Classic for not-quite-as-long. I no longer play 2 if I can help it, just Classic. So there are no rose-colored glasses, because this is something that is currently happening in the present.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm confused, are you saying that NS2 needs to be NS1 because you liked it better, or are you happy that you're still given the opportunity to play the very game that you wanted from the get-go? I mean, I don't have <i>any</i> issue with people playing NS2C, I'm actually kind of glad it's there even though I never intend on playing it. But suggesting that NS2 needs to be a mirror image of NS1 is ludicrous. To your credit, I don't think I've actually read anything from you saying that it must change, merely that you think it was better. I respectfully disagree, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter what either of us think I suppose.
And the fact that NS2C is vastly more similar to NS1 than NS2 is has nothing to do with it I bet? I think those rose-colored glasses are starting to cloud your logic.
As far as modded servers in NS1, i cannot think of any servers that ran mods that signficantly changed the classic game balance/experience. For combat, thats completely different and not what this discussion is about.
And in terms of balance, NS1 was extremely balanced in 6v6 play. On a 12v12 public server however the game balance did slip towards marines, however it was still 100x more balanced than NS2 currently.
As far as modded servers in NS1, i cannot think of any servers that ran mods that signficantly changed the classic game balance/experience. For combat, thats completely different and not what this discussion is about.
And in terms of balance, NS1 was extremely balanced in 6v6 play. On a 12v12 public server however the game balance did slip towards marines, however it was still 100x more balanced than NS2 currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, so bunny hopping was an exploit since it was unintended then it was relabeled a feature. Gotcha. And yes, it was an exploit because it was eventually <i>taken out of the game entirely</i> when Valve released the orange box version, at least it was for CS, which as you'll recall was also a HL1 engine mod. Same bug, different mod? Say it ain't so! The command you're probably thinking of was sv_airaccelerate, and is a server-client command. Even if the NS crew <i>could</i> have disabled it completely, the server could leave it in. (I will admit I'm no expert on console commands or bunny hopping, but if they ever disabled Marine bunny hopping it was long, long after I quit playing NS. And I played for about two years.)
Really, no mods that changed the game play? Yeah, I guess LerkLift didn't change anything at all...<i>oh wait yes it did.</i> I'm not really trying to attack your opinion here, you're more than welcome to it, but saying that NS1 was far more balanced is something we can't even know yet given that the majority of the player base is still brand spanking new. You can talk about competitive play, but the two are only remotely related at this point. With 16 or 24 person servers being the norm, the dynamics of two will never be the same. Ever.
NS1 removed marine bunnyhop when they released v2.0, less than a year after release of 1.0 IIRC. All that remained for marines was a slow on land unless you were jumping uphill.
In terms of game balance lerk lift really didnt change all that much, maybe on some of the crazier custom maps where you could get into all kinds of wierd places, but on vanilla maps I would say it was mostly a novelty.
I remember quite a few servers with stuff like "giveres", "Armory Heal", "First chamber vote" and "Lerklift" as mentioned.
Some of those got a bit crazy at times, especially on bigger servers.
NS1 removed marine bunnyhop when they released v2.0, less than a year after release of 1.0 IIRC. All that remained for marines was a slow on land unless you were jumping uphill.
In terms of game balance lerk lift really didnt change all that much, maybe on some of the crazier custom maps where you could get into all kinds of wierd places, but on vanilla maps I would say it was mostly a novelty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right on the Orange Box wow that was stupid of me. Those years fly by! Excuse my ignorance of it's eventual removal, I'm sure that was a great fix. I quit because of Marine Bunny Hopping, and I distinctly recall the developers saying it was either impossible or overly difficult to fix. I do know, for a fact, that this exploit was eventually patched out of existence by Valve itself in more 'official' mods/games. It was left in as a server variable if I recall, but was set to off by default. I merely assumed it was fixed by Valve first, and not UWE. It's quite possible UWE could have fixed it, but the fact of the matter is that it was always an unintended side effect of using the HL1 engine. It's an exploit because it was eventually fixed by the company that made the engine, regardless of if UWE fixed it themselves first.
Saying that LerkLift didn't change anything just proves that your rose colored glasses are glued to your face though. Gorges were not allowed to climb walls for a reason.
Given enough time, all of UWE's balance tweaking will mean nothing to your average player. Personal servers will eventually become modded to the point where game balance will be a choice of which server you want to play on, hopefully with 'Official' servers being the last bastion of those who are sick of downloading mod files.
xDragon, what do you think NS2 is other than the culmination of lessons learned through developing NS1? Do you assume the developers took a massive blow to the head and forgot a mod that they worked on for the better part of a decade? Or do you simply not agree with the lessons they learned as game developers?
Isn't that basically Valve's approach to making games? More drastic in some than others.
But yeah, you are right for the most part. And god it has to be boring to remake the same game over and over.
In terms of modding and the future of NS2 gameplay and balance, its really too early to say where that will go, but that is a potential land mine for the game should every server start running their own massive changes.
Totally loving the game and don't want to see too many drastic changes in the future i think its pretty good the way it is atm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would bet money that if you're playing even games, one or both commanders aren't performing as well as they could be. Attack coordination is huge, but when you can do things like get rush with a 5 minute onos, it's clear there are <u>some</u> issues.
In terms of modding and the future of NS2 gameplay and balance, its really too early to say where that will go, but that is a potential land mine for the game should every server start running their own massive changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly think the answer to why it changes game balance should be blatantly obvious, but I'll clue you in. It allowed Gorges to build stuff where no stuff should have ever been built. This helped to render Jetpacks useless, and put chambers beyond the reach of siege cannon. It also allowed Gorges to get into heavily defended area's and vents that were obviously designed to be inaccessible as a bile bomb gorge. I'm not getting drawn down this rabbit hole any further though, there are too many examples and possibilities that prove you wrong and it's not my mission to do so. The game that exists in your head is a far different game than I remember, and apparently NS1 was the perfect shining gem of game balance that is impossible to realize without a direct copy of that very game. Even a graphics change could, somehow, unbalance things in favor of one or the other. Nostalgia is one thing, but blind adherence to some mythical better balance is foolhardy.
One last thing, NS2 will quite definitely sink into the realm of personal servers being heavily modded to their core. It's the death of every game that's open to Mod's, and always will be. It's pointless to worry about the inevitable my friend, it will happen...in time. It's fun now, so enjoy the present and stop living in the past.