<!--quoteo(post=2019566:date=Nov 11 2012, 03:21 PM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 11 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow. You really are something. You equate "wanting an equal chance against the enemy" with COD mentality? I guess that's why everyone who plays Call of Duty doesn't max out the cheesiest perks and doesn't prone-dive to make themselves less of a target. I guess that's why Call of Duty isn't nothing more than everyone playing Sniper because they can take out Assault classes from across the map with little threat. Oh wait. No. Wait. That's exactly what COD is. The complete opposite of "equal chance" gaming.
There's nothing wrong with "equal chance" gaming. You're confusing it with symmetrical gaming. That is, indeed, stale and boring. That is, indeed, what Call of Duty boils down to. Both sides are exactly the same. Both sides have exactly the same weapons and perks. It's just run and gun. It's just monotonous deathmatch. There's very little "hard strategy" involved. You can have "equal chance gaming" and asymmetry. It's just hard to balance, hence why there's constant issues on the forums.
There's nothing wrong with instant gratification either. That's the entire purpose people play video games. I know you like to think you're some sort of veteran remembering the good ol' days, but as time goes on, the argument against "COD mentality" is becoming more and more toxic than someone hypothetically defending it. It's not cool, especially when Natural Selection 2 is much more casual than the games the actual veteran gamers you're trying to emulate were defending. You know, like Quakeworld?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone has the choice to dolphin dive in COD. Everyone has the choice to max out on lame perks. Everyone has the choice to be a sniper. Equal opportunity, no advantage given to any one player. if you're a marine with 10 pres, and an Onos comes charging towards you, you can't pause the game and choose to be an alien Onos right then and there. If your team is losing horribly, and has one hive and no upgrade chambers, and the marines come in with jetpacks and exos, there is nothing fair about that. Theres nothing you can do to even the odds.
I also never said there was anything wrong with instant gratification. How can there be something wrong with it if so many people prefer it? All I said was that NS is not that kind of game.
<!--quoteo(post=2019586:date=Nov 11 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 11 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The units themselves are controlled by AI. The computer processes movement commands (pathing), attacks (melee checks, aiming), etc. All the player does (mostly) in RTS games is general commands (move over there, fire in this direction, attack over there, etc). There is a huge difference between this and playing an FPS where most of your game revolves around your single unit, which you have complete control over. You process every aspect of movement (you need to manage pathing yourself, movement impairing effects can become very frustrating), you need to aim yourself (vision impairing effects can become very frustrating), etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so 'micro' is a myth?
dude... pro aim/movement gives you an edge in competitive FPS games, but all high tier players have a pretty small skill disparity. exactly the same principle applies to micro in RTS games.
if your aim sucks then you lose a fight you should have won, just the same as if your micro sucks.
sorry, but it to me seems like you're trying to discredit my analogy to shift the focus away from your controversial idea. your 'blasphemous' idea to change the core mechanics of the game, for the sole purpose of enabling you to play an alien in essentially the same mentality and style that we expect to play as a marine.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2019529:date=Nov 11 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 11 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the OP underlines is essentially the COD mentality of gaming.
I want an equal chance against any enemy that I can come up against regardless of what has happened previously in the game, or what will happen in the future. I want instant gratification in every single encounter, because I can't be bothered to think past the here and now, or strategise for the future.
And the OP would be completely correct. The vast majority of players will not and do not like the style of game that NS is. That's why the total sales figure of 144k was far above what UWE had anticipated, and why selling less than a million copies in the first week is a financial catastrophe for Activision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really consider using an understanding of psychology to ensure people enjoy gameplay promoting the COD mentality?
At no point does the issue I outlined effect me personally, however I do care about the growth of the NS2 community. I do not want to see NS2 banished to a tiny niche and/or a return to the 300 player max we saw during the beta.
There is much more asymmetry in NS2, it will never be like Battlefield and Call of Duty.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
I've seen a lot of "this should change, because of X"
What I would like to know is, what kind of playstyle are you lot using. Because wallwalking/strafing/walljumping and of course ambushing are all very potent and effective. A skulk is about choosing your fights, not just blindly going in (in straight lines) and hope for the best.
There is also a thing about timed biting versus holding the attack button that I see a lot of new player do. My answer is DON'T :P
It's not at all that hard to learn these basic rules of engagements or movement. It's just that players need to think completely different when playing a Skulk compared to other games, because it is simply a completely different character from what they're used to.
The only issue I currently see with the Skulk is not early gameplay, it is the fact that it simply doesn't scale with A3-W3 marines end game. Which in turn makes the Skulk increasingly hard to play and frustrating, because players are playing Skulk most of the time. This is also a side affect of trying to balance a game for both competitive gameplay and public gameplay, the things that make it easier will in turn make skilled players extremely good.
That and some of the upgrades are weird in NS2, Celerity out of combat, Adrenaline is just a bigger pool, focus is not there, alien spawn waves that do not scale with team size. However those were implemented as such to make it easier for marines. So boosting those will in turn make it harder for marines once more. It is a delicate balance we're talking about (public play vs competitive play once more), Also the Skulk is free, samegoes for a freshly spawned marine of course, but there is team res spend on his end game capabilities. Free Skulks will remain free throughout the match, this is part of the no scaling bit I guess...
I also see a lot of "equal skill vs equal skill -> 1v1". I mean this game is about teamplay, where a group of Skulk that do a good ambush will have the advantage. This is is a group vs group game and if you're skilled enough you can try and take on multiple enemies...
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2019597:date=Nov 11 2012, 01:39 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 11 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so 'micro' is a myth?
dude... pro aim/movement gives you an edge in competitive FPS games, but all high tier players have a pretty small skill disparity. exactly the same principle applies to micro in RTS games.
if your aim sucks then you lose a fight you should have won, just the same as if your micro sucks.
sorry, but it seems like you're trying to discredit my analogy to shift the focus away from your controversial idea to change the core mechanics of the game so that you can play an alien in essentially the same mentality and style that we expect to play as a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The entire point is that players in an RTS and FPS experience the game entirely differently, due to the fact they play from completely different perspectives.
In an RTS if a few units out of 20+ get a bit stuck going up a ramp, or pathing funny, it will barely register (and infact they get in each others way all the time). In an FPS small issues that effect movement, like map bugs, player collisions, etc, can be intensely frustrating. If you cannot understand the vast differences in how gameplay impacts players psychologically between these two completely different genres then I am really at a loss.
<!--quoteo(post=2019596:date=Nov 11 2012, 05:39 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 11 2012, 05:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone has the choice to dolphin dive in COD. Everyone has the choice to max out on lame perks. Everyone has the choice to be a sniper. Equal opportunity, no advantage given to any one player. if you're a marine with 10 pres, and an Onos comes charging towards you, you can't pause the game and choose to be an alien Onos right then and there. If your team is losing horribly, and has one hive and no upgrade chambers, and the marines come in with jetpacks and exos, there is nothing fair about that. Theres nothing you can do to even the odds.
I also never said there was anything wrong with instant gratification. How can there be something wrong with it if so many people prefer it? All I said was that NS is not that kind of game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A marine has advantages over a skulk. A skulk has advantages over a marine. No one is arguing that shouldn't be. But, there should be balance between the advantages. Let's imagine you have a unit that moves 100 units per second but deals 50 damage. His advantage is movement. Now let's imagine you have another unit that moves at 50 units per second but deals 100 damage. His advantage is raw damage. Both have their upsides and downsides, but both are overall balanced to one another. Wanting <b>OVERALL BALANCE</b> is not "COD MENTALITY". You're just trying way too hard to sound like some sort-of video game hipster.
i think the problem is more that losing a player to becoming alien khamm means you have less players in the field, no forward healing from your gorge, etc.
There is another underlying problem, Aliens (mainly skulks in general) have a long respawn time to be considered expendable, and if you are low on eggs this respawning time could take anywhere from 10 seconds to over a minute.
During this time of not being able to spawn, you are not gaining resources, and since the skulk is so useless you need those resources to evolve to something else.
This can cause some people (including myself) to just enter a match, not feel like wasting time and resources trying to kill marines that can 1 shot you, and just wait at the hive till you have enough resources to evolve to a class that you don't feel like you're wasted on.
And since the fade is useless, the only classes are lerk and onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2019603:date=Nov 11 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 11 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The entire point is that players in an RTS and FPS experience the game entirely differently, due to the fact they play from completely different perspectives.
In an RTS if a few units out of 20+ get a bit stuck going up a ramp, or pathing funny, it will barely register (and infact they get in each others way all the time). In an FPS small issues that effect movement, like map bugs, player collisions, etc, can be intensely frustrating. If you cannot understand the vast differences in how gameplay impacts players psychologically between these two completely different genres then I am really at a loss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what in the.....
i take it then that you're basically admitting that you're a quick-tempered rager who can't contain his emotions after getting killed by a marine who in all likelihood either outplayed or outgeared you.
sorry, working as intended.
edit: starcraft 2 and dayz are some of the most mentally draining games around, they are extremely unforgiving and require high levels sustained focus to play effectively. maybe that's why noone likes them and they're total failures, right? make them easy, that will work!!!!!11 (/sarcasm)
I wish some of the newer players would understand, that much of NS2 is based on NS1; and combined have been tested for 'balance' for more than 10 years already.
Skulks play differently than almost any other game. If you don't play it properly, you will not stand a chance ever. It takes time and patience, which is new for most newer gamers, but the reward is what makes it so worth it. Playing skulk is one of my favorite things in NS2, right under lerking which is absolutely the greatest thing ever.
But I see lerks play terribly, and when they die, they always complain after dieing, even though they were standing on the floor in the open, not moving, just spiking a marine in the distance.
<!--quoteo(post=2019612:date=Nov 11 2012, 07:52 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 11 2012, 07:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what in the.....
i take it then that you're basically admitting that you're a quick-tempered rager who can't contain his emotions after getting killed by a marine who in all likelihood either outplayed or outgeared you.
sorry, working as intended.
edit: starcraft 2 and dayz are some of the most mentally draining games around, they are extremely unforgiving and require high levels sustained focus to play effectively. maybe that's why noone likes them and they're total failures, right? make them easy, that will work!!!!!11 (/sarcasm)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either you're trolling or...
What the guy is saying is that being taken completely out of play (stunned for many seconds, killed, or in the past, Onos devoured) is a lot different than losing a single unit in an RTS game. And if you want to retain/appease your casual playerbase (the majority), they need to be experiencing something called fun, not something called immense frustration.
I personally think you'd be surprised about SC2 concurrent player numbers if you think that it is actually successful at retaining casual/average players.
I agree with the op. Skulks are slightly underpowered. I don't think they need more health. But instead they need to be smaller. So it takes a little bit more skill from marines to actually hit them. Maybe this could even be an upgrade that reduces the size of the skulks in 3 steps to scale with the marine weapon upgrades.
Yes. Skulks are suicide units. And yes, they can get a lot of kills if you have skill. But even if the teams are balanced right now, the alien side feels like losing until the mid- or late game. It is just less fun. It isn't fun dieing. Creating a unit that is intentionally fast dieing is not good as a game mechanic.
If alien respawn times were as low as marines, I'd have nothing against skulks dying withins seconds if spotted. But that's just ridiculous, when it takes five successful bites to kill upgraded marine, which is not easy at all with that marine jumping around like mad, and it takes only a few bullets to kill you. Then you wait a ton of time. And then you have to take your time again and evolve. And run to the other side of the map, because you have no other way to travel faster.
What the guy is saying is that being taken completely out of play (stunned for many seconds, killed, or in the past, Onos devoured) is a lot different than losing a single unit in an RTS game. And if you want to retain/appease your casual playerbase (the majority), they need to be experiencing something called fun, not something called immense frustration.
I personally think you'd be surprised about SC2 concurrent player numbers if you think that it is actually successful at retaining casual/average players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
being completely taken out of play and stating 'killed' as an example? totally irrelevant point but i found it pretty amusing, so thanks for that.
rhetorical question: why is that not applicable to RTS where you could freely scale the 1:1 up to a 100:100? in which case it would seem like a significant loss, unless you'd actually played the game and realised there are many other factors to consider - for example map control, map mobility, resource gathering speed (or suitability to safely gather resources), spawn time etc.
as zerg, you're okay for terran marines to ###### on your zerglings because as long as you whittle down his marine ball then you can comfortably play a greedy economy style knowing that you don't have to worry about a giant deathball. i.e. you're okay losing units 1:1 because it's all part of your grand plan.
it's a perfectly viable analogy if you think about it instead of shrugging it off saying "losing a zergling is not a big deal because you can make another one" or "an RTS is totally different because the aim is controlled by AI instead of a person!".
anyway i'm not going to delver any further into this mess until you're able to demonstrate an understanding of anything deeper than one-dimensional game modes like deathmatch.
My feeling is that skulks are very reliant on positioning. Sure, if you're running down a hall at a marine you will die. You can probably have 3 or four skulks running down a hall at a marine and if he's good he'll kill all of them.
On the other side, if you have three skulks sneak into an area from different directions and attack at the same time, they can easily take down a large group of marines, even if they are outnumbered.
Try playing more carefully when using Skulk. Get parasites, keep tabs on the other team, scout their buildings, and fight when in good position. I personally find it a very fun lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=2019664:date=Nov 11 2012, 10:51 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 11 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->being completely taken out of play and stating 'killed' as an example? totally irrelevant point but i found it pretty amusing, so thanks for that.
rhetorical question: why is that not applicable to RTS where you could freely scale the 1:1 up to a 100:100? in which case it would seem like a significant loss, unless you'd actually played the game and realised there are many other factors to consider - for example map control, map mobility, resource gathering speed (or suitability to safely gather resources), spawn time etc.
as zerg, you're okay for terran marines to ###### on your zerglings because as long as you whittle down his marine ball then you can comfortably play a greedy economy style knowing that you don't have to worry about a giant deathball. i.e. you're okay losing units 1:1 because it's all part of your grand plan.
it's a perfectly viable analogy if you think about it instead of shrugging it off saying "losing a zergling is not a big deal because you can make another one" or "an RTS is totally different because the aim is controlled by AI instead of a person!".
anyway i'm not going to delver any further into this mess until you're able to demonstrate an understanding of anything deeper than one-dimensional game modes like deathmatch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're implying that whittling down marine forces is a viable strategy in ns2, or that it has some sort of effect on the end game. It doesn't. Past the three to four minute mark against a decent marine commander every push will be backed by a armory and a phasegate. If you don't successfully kill the marine, they are back to full health in 3 seconds. If you kill a marine, they are back at the front line in less then 10. I would say that marines are far more disposable then a skulk at every stage of a game while scaling far better and in many ways simply being more powerful at pretty much all times. For a ambush/sneaky unit skulks are pretty inept that the job, and as a front line/defense unit they are even worse.
I would have to agree that the design of the Skulk is hurting gameplay in general due to a couple of factors. The main gripe I have with the skulk is that it doesn't scale well at all throughout the game. Oh whoopee you have carapace now! That's like what...40 extra hp against the AR? Great! You live 0.4s longer against a W0 Marine! Let's not forget that the Shotgun dominates you at your effective range (melee). Doesn't really matter how good you strafe/dodge/etc if all it takes is 1-hit from the shotty to ruin your day. It's pretty bizarre how marines dominate aliens at all ranges even though aliens have the burden of having to enter melee range...
It also doesn't help that current gameplay mechanics pretty much discourages you from evolving to any other lifeform except Onos unless your team already has a huge advantage over the marines. I can count the number of times I played Lerk in one hand and my average life expectancy in two. Why? I never get the chance to practice with the class on an actual game since I can't afford the 30 res sink nor do I want to spend 30 res on a rather flimsy lifeform. Fade? Oh yeah let me get the lifeform that dies to two shotgun blasts and a gentle breeze at its effective range. While good for making my K/D look better, I may as well save up for Onos...
Best fun I've had with aliens is using Gorge and only because of the random things you can do with it. Clog staircase to vents ftw!
ARGATHOR. How dare you, how VERY DARE YOU. FPS is <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->exactly<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> like rts, you utter plebian turd! Haven't you heard of a thing called... <!--fonto:Century Gothic--><span style="font-family:Century Gothic"><!--/fonto-->M.I.C.R.O<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->? Get back to the books argathor and learn to play the skulk <b>effectively</b>. Skulks rely on <u>positioning</u> and need to <u>parasite</u>. Perhaps you need to go back to using <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->rookie green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> because I'm sure your clan is just sick and tireeed of your antics. Lose your <i>COD MENTALITY</i> and stop thinking things should be equal - it's really holding you back. Fun is not important, gawd. Stop being such a trollish <b>TROLL</b>.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2019599:date=Nov 11 2012, 01:40 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 11 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen a lot of "this should change, because of X"
What I would like to know is, what kind of playstyle are you lot using. Because wallwalking/strafing/walljumping and of course ambushing are all very potent and effective. A skulk is about choosing your fights, not just blindly going in (in straight lines) and hope for the best.
There is also a thing about timed biting versus holding the attack button that I see a lot of new player do. My answer is DON'T :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This dissapoints me. It is clearly not an issue of play style or ability. The problem was clearly visible during this weekends ESL final (aliens had much worse KDRs than marines) and is an intended asymmetrical part of the game. Players like myself and you are not effected, we will play NS2 anyway. The aim here to increase the size of NS2's niche by making it more accessible. Most people will simply avoid NS2 if they have to die constantly when Alien, even if they are winning.
<!--quoteo(post=2019790:date=Nov 11 2012, 08:48 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Nov 11 2012, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ARGATHOR. How dare you, how VERY DARE YOU. FPS is <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->exactly<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> like rts, you utter plebian turd! Haven't you heard of a thing called... <!--fonto:Century Gothic--><span style="font-family:Century Gothic"><!--/fonto-->M.I.C.R.O<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->? Get back to the books argathor and learn to play the skulk <b>effectively</b>. Skulks rely on <u>positioning</u> and need to <u>parasite</u>. Perhaps you need to go back to using <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->rookie green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> because I'm sure your clan is just sick and tireeed of your antics. Lose your <i>COD MENTALITY</i> and stop thinking things should be equal - it's really holding you back. Fun is not important, gawd. Stop being such a trollish <b>TROLL</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2019794:date=Nov 11 2012, 04:52 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 11 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This dissapoints me. It is clearly not an issue of play style or ability. The problem was clearly visible during this weekends ESL final (aliens had much worse KDRs than marines) and is an intended asymmetrical part of the game. Players like myself and you are not effected, we will play NS2 anyway. The aim here to increase the size of NS2's niche by making it more accessible. Most people will simply avoid NS2 if they have to die constantly when Alien, even if they are winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Selective quoting are we? I've explained why it is hard to change in the rest of that post... Like I said, something has to be done but it is hard (imho impossible) to balance for both pub and clan/competitive games.
And last I checked K:D ratio is an extremely small part of balance, Skulks are simply more of a cannon fodder type of class (why I am not a fan of the slow spawn waves and it not scaling with team size). Add to this that aliens are very hard to adapt to in terms of game and play style when coming from a pure FPS background. So you can be disappointed all you want. The fact remains that it is a delicate balance we are talking about, that can't be addressed by simply adding random hidden modifiers...
<!--quoteo(post=2019805:date=Nov 11 2012, 12:58 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 11 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Selective quoting are we? I've explained why it is hard to change in the rest of that post... Like I said, something has to be done but it is hard (imho impossible) to balance for both pub and clan/competitive games.
And last I checked K:D ratio is an extremely small part of balance, Skulks are simply more of a cannon fodder type of class (why I am not a fan of the slow spawn waves and it not scaling with team size). Add to this that aliens are very hard to adapt to in terms of game and play style when coming from a pure FPS background. So you can be disappointed all you want. The fact remains that it is a delicate balance we are talking about, that can't be addressed by simply adding random hidden modifiers...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens are not hard to adapt to, I would even say their style of play isn't difficult. It's obviously harder then marines, but the real problem is that marines have a direct counter to everything aliens can do. Though, after playing a few more games today, I have realized one thing that has too happen. They need to turn on friendly fire.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And last I checked K:D ratio is an extremely small part of balance<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might not have a massive effect on balance (though it most certainly does to an extent) but I think the K:D ratio has a big psychological impact, especially for new players. When you're on alien and theres 2 or 3 good marines mopping up skulks like theres no tomorrow, it can already feel like game over just a few minutes in.
I'd be interested to see what the skulk size and speed of NS1 introduced to NS2 would look like. Also, I agree that the implementation of speed gain for skulks is lacking at the moment.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2019805:date=Nov 11 2012, 04:58 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 11 2012, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Selective quoting are we? I've explained why it is hard to change in the rest of that post... Like I said, something has to be done but it is hard (imho impossible) to balance for both pub and clan/competitive games.
And last I checked K:D ratio is an extremely small part of balance, Skulks are simply more of a cannon fodder type of class (why I am not a fan of the slow spawn waves and it not scaling with team size). Add to this that aliens are very hard to adapt to in terms of game and play style when coming from a pure FPS background. So you can be disappointed all you want. The fact remains that it is a delicate balance we are talking about, that can't be addressed by simply adding random hidden modifiers...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't an attempt at selective quoting. The rest just was not relevant to the discussion.
No-one is discussing balance. The KDR is relevant because it is a symptom of the problem. We already know Skulks are designed and purposefully cannon fodder, thats what the thread is about and it is also part of the problem.
This particular asymmetrical aspect of NS2 is a bad thing for the game and will prevent large scale adoption. It adds too much frustration to Alien gameplay for the majority of people, leaving only the hardcore left. Psychologically people will always do more to avoid frustration than gain fun. Even if NS2 is the most fun game out there sometimes (and I believe it is), it also ranks quite high on the frustration scale too. This is what will make NS2 a niche game.
<!--quoteo(post=2019816:date=Nov 11 2012, 01:09 PM:name=Hessian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hessian @ Nov 11 2012, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens are not hard to adapt to, I would even say their style of play isn't difficult. It's obviously harder then marines, but the real problem is that marines have a direct counter to everything aliens can do. Though, after playing a few more games today, I have realized one thing that has too happen. They need to turn on friendly fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens would take non-glancing friendly fire bites. Marines would get cauterizing bullets.
Sorry, that's not helping.
I'm going to echo my sentiments from other threads: Aliens don't deal enough damage to justify their "hit and run/ambush" design. You can sneak up on a Marine but once it takes 4-5 non-glancing (which is a stupid system but obviously we need to have hidden modifiers so that we don't have hidden modifiers modifying things in a hidden manner) hits, you can't get a sneak kill. Any Marine that isn't asleep instantly reacts to the first bite and they're either gunning you down or jetpacking to an Armory to get their armor repair instantly.
Marines are the ultimate in spammable units: you can set their spawn rate by building IPs, you can get them wherever you want by building phase gates, they can be upgraded to A3/W3 completely independent of that marine's pres stash, and any weapons they lose are picked up either by their friends or themselves, after respawning and heading back through the phase gate. Stomping a hive is most easily done by swarming it. Get a phase gate nearby or a bunch of jetpack/shotgunners, and head in there shooting. The opportunity cost AS A TEAM for a JP/shotgun rush is also really low, because you can beacon your team immediately after the hive goes down, preventing the alien counterattack from being a problem. Aliens built up too heavily for you to swarm? Get a couple of GLs or ARCs, dig in and start pounding.
Skulks intentionally do not scale beyond cara/cele/leap/silence/xeno, and I think that's an unfortunate choice. They spend more time dead than marines, partially due to wave spawns, and so have less pres overall. The closest the Kharaa have to phase gates is forward shifts controlling spawns, and spawning at those locations is unreliable due to the current egg selection method being essentially nonfunctional, and priority not seeming to be given to newly spawned Shift eggs reliably. Walljumping is supposed to give an advantage to skulks, but there's no real instruction for new players on how to do it and it's not exactly what I'd call intuitive, meaning that balancing the game for competitive play leaves your average new pub player way behind the skulk handling curve.
And while we're at it... Xenocide? Really? If it worked at all reliably, I would have less issue with it, but what it primarily accomplishes is moving a skulk from the frontline back to wherever the game decides he's going to spawn this time. I don't ever research it unless someone asks me to.
I love being a skulk, because the tactical options you've got for movement and ambushing make the early game fun and I'm good enough at Lerk to not spend much of the A3/W3 midgame as a skulk. Being a brand-new marine, straight from the IP with no pres spent, is a decent thing to be at any point in the game if your arms lab is still online, and upgrading yourself to a shotgun, GL, or flamethrower is as easy as playing backup for a guy who's carrying one. Being a skulk in the mid and late game is definitely an uphill battle, because the only upgrades you're likely to have are leap, cele, and cara, which don't really cut it against jetpackers and A3/W3 marines who can actually shoot.
This is part of why marine stalemates last so long, and are ended by a giant wave of onii, btw. Kharaa have one real option for breaking sieges, and he costs 75 pres/tres. Anything lighter than that is usually just trying to survive grenade spam and the spawning machine that is a turtled marine base.
Hit and run ambusher, if you discount that marines have all the time in the world to just turn around and shoot you while you are getting bite 4 or 5 on them
Cannon fodder, if we forget they spawn like 3000 times slower than marines
Comments
There's nothing wrong with "equal chance" gaming. You're confusing it with symmetrical gaming. That is, indeed, stale and boring. That is, indeed, what Call of Duty boils down to. Both sides are exactly the same. Both sides have exactly the same weapons and perks. It's just run and gun. It's just monotonous deathmatch. There's very little "hard strategy" involved. You can have "equal chance gaming" and asymmetry. It's just hard to balance, hence why there's constant issues on the forums.
There's nothing wrong with instant gratification either. That's the entire purpose people play video games. I know you like to think you're some sort of veteran remembering the good ol' days, but as time goes on, the argument against "COD mentality" is becoming more and more toxic than someone hypothetically defending it. It's not cool, especially when Natural Selection 2 is much more casual than the games the actual veteran gamers you're trying to emulate were defending. You know, like Quakeworld?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone has the choice to dolphin dive in COD. Everyone has the choice to max out on lame perks. Everyone has the choice to be a sniper. Equal opportunity, no advantage given to any one player. if you're a marine with 10 pres, and an Onos comes charging towards you, you can't pause the game and choose to be an alien Onos right then and there. If your team is losing horribly, and has one hive and no upgrade chambers, and the marines come in with jetpacks and exos, there is nothing fair about that. Theres nothing you can do to even the odds.
I also never said there was anything wrong with instant gratification. How can there be something wrong with it if so many people prefer it? All I said was that NS is not that kind of game.
so 'micro' is a myth?
dude... pro aim/movement gives you an edge in competitive FPS games, but all high tier players have a pretty small skill disparity. exactly the same principle applies to micro in RTS games.
if your aim sucks then you lose a fight you should have won, just the same as if your micro sucks.
sorry, but it to me seems like you're trying to discredit my analogy to shift the focus away from your controversial idea. your 'blasphemous' idea to change the core mechanics of the game, for the sole purpose of enabling you to play an alien in essentially the same mentality and style that we expect to play as a marine.
I want an equal chance against any enemy that I can come up against regardless of what has happened previously in the game, or what will happen in the future. I want instant gratification in every single encounter, because I can't be bothered to think past the here and now, or strategise for the future.
And the OP would be completely correct. The vast majority of players will not and do not like the style of game that NS is. That's why the total sales figure of 144k was far above what UWE had anticipated, and why selling less than a million copies in the first week is a financial catastrophe for Activision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really consider using an understanding of psychology to ensure people enjoy gameplay promoting the COD mentality?
At no point does the issue I outlined effect me personally, however I do care about the growth of the NS2 community. I do not want to see NS2 banished to a tiny niche and/or a return to the 300 player max we saw during the beta.
There is much more asymmetry in NS2, it will never be like Battlefield and Call of Duty.
What I would like to know is, what kind of playstyle are you lot using. Because wallwalking/strafing/walljumping and of course ambushing are all very potent and effective. A skulk is about choosing your fights, not just blindly going in (in straight lines) and hope for the best.
There is also a thing about timed biting versus holding the attack button that I see a lot of new player do. My answer is DON'T :P
It's not at all that hard to learn these basic rules of engagements or movement. It's just that players need to think completely different when playing a Skulk compared to other games, because it is simply a completely different character from what they're used to.
The only issue I currently see with the Skulk is not early gameplay, it is the fact that it simply doesn't scale with A3-W3 marines end game. Which in turn makes the Skulk increasingly hard to play and frustrating, because players are playing Skulk most of the time. This is also a side affect of trying to balance a game for both competitive gameplay and public gameplay, the things that make it easier will in turn make skilled players extremely good.
That and some of the upgrades are weird in NS2, Celerity out of combat, Adrenaline is just a bigger pool, focus is not there, alien spawn waves that do not scale with team size. However those were implemented as such to make it easier for marines. So boosting those will in turn make it harder for marines once more. It is a delicate balance we're talking about (public play vs competitive play once more), Also the Skulk is free, samegoes for a freshly spawned marine of course, but there is team res spend on his end game capabilities. Free Skulks will remain free throughout the match, this is part of the no scaling bit I guess...
I also see a lot of "equal skill vs equal skill -> 1v1". I mean this game is about teamplay, where a group of Skulk that do a good ambush will have the advantage. This is is a group vs group game and if you're skilled enough you can try and take on multiple enemies...
dude... pro aim/movement gives you an edge in competitive FPS games, but all high tier players have a pretty small skill disparity. exactly the same principle applies to micro in RTS games.
if your aim sucks then you lose a fight you should have won, just the same as if your micro sucks.
sorry, but it seems like you're trying to discredit my analogy to shift the focus away from your controversial idea to change the core mechanics of the game so that you can play an alien in essentially the same mentality and style that we expect to play as a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The entire point is that players in an RTS and FPS experience the game entirely differently, due to the fact they play from completely different perspectives.
In an RTS if a few units out of 20+ get a bit stuck going up a ramp, or pathing funny, it will barely register (and infact they get in each others way all the time). In an FPS small issues that effect movement, like map bugs, player collisions, etc, can be intensely frustrating. If you cannot understand the vast differences in how gameplay impacts players psychologically between these two completely different genres then I am really at a loss.
I also never said there was anything wrong with instant gratification. How can there be something wrong with it if so many people prefer it? All I said was that NS is not that kind of game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A marine has advantages over a skulk. A skulk has advantages over a marine. No one is arguing that shouldn't be. But, there should be balance between the advantages. Let's imagine you have a unit that moves 100 units per second but deals 50 damage. His advantage is movement. Now let's imagine you have another unit that moves at 50 units per second but deals 100 damage. His advantage is raw damage. Both have their upsides and downsides, but both are overall balanced to one another. Wanting <b>OVERALL BALANCE</b> is not "COD MENTALITY". You're just trying way too hard to sound like some sort-of video game hipster.
During this time of not being able to spawn, you are not gaining resources, and since the skulk is so useless you need those resources to evolve to something else.
This can cause some people (including myself) to just enter a match, not feel like wasting time and resources trying to kill marines that can 1 shot you, and just wait at the hive till you have enough resources to evolve to a class that you don't feel like you're wasted on.
And since the fade is useless, the only classes are lerk and onos.
It is very stressful.
In an RTS if a few units out of 20+ get a bit stuck going up a ramp, or pathing funny, it will barely register (and infact they get in each others way all the time). In an FPS small issues that effect movement, like map bugs, player collisions, etc, can be intensely frustrating. If you cannot understand the vast differences in how gameplay impacts players psychologically between these two completely different genres then I am really at a loss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what in the.....
i take it then that you're basically admitting that you're a quick-tempered rager who can't contain his emotions after getting killed by a marine who in all likelihood either outplayed or outgeared you.
sorry, working as intended.
edit: starcraft 2 and dayz are some of the most mentally draining games around, they are extremely unforgiving and require high levels sustained focus to play effectively. maybe that's why noone likes them and they're total failures, right? make them easy, that will work!!!!!11 (/sarcasm)
Skulks play differently than almost any other game. If you don't play it properly, you will not stand a chance ever. It takes time and patience, which is new for most newer gamers, but the reward is what makes it so worth it. Playing skulk is one of my favorite things in NS2, right under lerking which is absolutely the greatest thing ever.
But I see lerks play terribly, and when they die, they always complain after dieing, even though they were standing on the floor in the open, not moving, just spiking a marine in the distance.
i take it then that you're basically admitting that you're a quick-tempered rager who can't contain his emotions after getting killed by a marine who in all likelihood either outplayed or outgeared you.
sorry, working as intended.
edit: starcraft 2 and dayz are some of the most mentally draining games around, they are extremely unforgiving and require high levels sustained focus to play effectively. maybe that's why noone likes them and they're total failures, right? make them easy, that will work!!!!!11 (/sarcasm)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either you're trolling or...
What the guy is saying is that being taken completely out of play (stunned for many seconds, killed, or in the past, Onos devoured) is a lot different than losing a single unit in an RTS game. And if you want to retain/appease your casual playerbase (the majority), they need to be experiencing something called fun, not something called immense frustration.
I personally think you'd be surprised about SC2 concurrent player numbers if you think that it is actually successful at retaining casual/average players.
Yes. Skulks are suicide units. And yes, they can get a lot of kills if you have skill. But even if the teams are balanced right now, the alien side feels like losing until the mid- or late game. It is just less fun. It isn't fun dieing. Creating a unit that is intentionally fast dieing is not good as a game mechanic.
What the guy is saying is that being taken completely out of play (stunned for many seconds, killed, or in the past, Onos devoured) is a lot different than losing a single unit in an RTS game. And if you want to retain/appease your casual playerbase (the majority), they need to be experiencing something called fun, not something called immense frustration.
I personally think you'd be surprised about SC2 concurrent player numbers if you think that it is actually successful at retaining casual/average players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
being completely taken out of play and stating 'killed' as an example? totally irrelevant point but i found it pretty amusing, so thanks for that.
rhetorical question: why is that not applicable to RTS where you could freely scale the 1:1 up to a 100:100? in which case it would seem like a significant loss, unless you'd actually played the game and realised there are many other factors to consider - for example map control, map mobility, resource gathering speed (or suitability to safely gather resources), spawn time etc.
as zerg, you're okay for terran marines to ###### on your zerglings because as long as you whittle down his marine ball then you can comfortably play a greedy economy style knowing that you don't have to worry about a giant deathball. i.e. you're okay losing units 1:1 because it's all part of your grand plan.
it's a perfectly viable analogy if you think about it instead of shrugging it off saying "losing a zergling is not a big deal because you can make another one" or "an RTS is totally different because the aim is controlled by AI instead of a person!".
anyway i'm not going to delver any further into this mess until you're able to demonstrate an understanding of anything deeper than one-dimensional game modes like deathmatch.
On the other side, if you have three skulks sneak into an area from different directions and attack at the same time, they can easily take down a large group of marines, even if they are outnumbered.
Try playing more carefully when using Skulk. Get parasites, keep tabs on the other team, scout their buildings, and fight when in good position. I personally find it a very fun lifeform.
rhetorical question: why is that not applicable to RTS where you could freely scale the 1:1 up to a 100:100? in which case it would seem like a significant loss, unless you'd actually played the game and realised there are many other factors to consider - for example map control, map mobility, resource gathering speed (or suitability to safely gather resources), spawn time etc.
as zerg, you're okay for terran marines to ###### on your zerglings because as long as you whittle down his marine ball then you can comfortably play a greedy economy style knowing that you don't have to worry about a giant deathball. i.e. you're okay losing units 1:1 because it's all part of your grand plan.
it's a perfectly viable analogy if you think about it instead of shrugging it off saying "losing a zergling is not a big deal because you can make another one" or "an RTS is totally different because the aim is controlled by AI instead of a person!".
anyway i'm not going to delver any further into this mess until you're able to demonstrate an understanding of anything deeper than one-dimensional game modes like deathmatch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're implying that whittling down marine forces is a viable strategy in ns2, or that it has some sort of effect on the end game. It doesn't. Past the three to four minute mark against a decent marine commander every push will be backed by a armory and a phasegate. If you don't successfully kill the marine, they are back to full health in 3 seconds. If you kill a marine, they are back at the front line in less then 10. I would say that marines are far more disposable then a skulk at every stage of a game while scaling far better and in many ways simply being more powerful at pretty much all times. For a ambush/sneaky unit skulks are pretty inept that the job, and as a front line/defense unit they are even worse.
It also doesn't help that current gameplay mechanics pretty much discourages you from evolving to any other lifeform except Onos unless your team already has a huge advantage over the marines. I can count the number of times I played Lerk in one hand and my average life expectancy in two. Why? I never get the chance to practice with the class on an actual game since I can't afford the 30 res sink nor do I want to spend 30 res on a rather flimsy lifeform. Fade? Oh yeah let me get the lifeform that dies to two shotgun blasts and a gentle breeze at its effective range. While good for making my K/D look better, I may as well save up for Onos...
Best fun I've had with aliens is using Gorge and only because of the random things you can do with it. Clog staircase to vents ftw!
What I would like to know is, what kind of playstyle are you lot using. Because wallwalking/strafing/walljumping and of course ambushing are all very potent and effective. A skulk is about choosing your fights, not just blindly going in (in straight lines) and hope for the best.
There is also a thing about timed biting versus holding the attack button that I see a lot of new player do. My answer is DON'T :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This dissapoints me. It is clearly not an issue of play style or ability. The problem was clearly visible during this weekends ESL final (aliens had much worse KDRs than marines) and is an intended asymmetrical part of the game. Players like myself and you are not effected, we will play NS2 anyway. The aim here to increase the size of NS2's niche by making it more accessible. Most people will simply avoid NS2 if they have to die constantly when Alien, even if they are winning.
Im very sorry... :-(
I lol'd.
Selective quoting are we? I've explained why it is hard to change in the rest of that post... Like I said, something has to be done but it is hard (imho impossible) to balance for both pub and clan/competitive games.
And last I checked K:D ratio is an extremely small part of balance, Skulks are simply more of a cannon fodder type of class (why I am not a fan of the slow spawn waves and it not scaling with team size). Add to this that aliens are very hard to adapt to in terms of game and play style when coming from a pure FPS background. So you can be disappointed all you want. The fact remains that it is a delicate balance we are talking about, that can't be addressed by simply adding random hidden modifiers...
And last I checked K:D ratio is an extremely small part of balance, Skulks are simply more of a cannon fodder type of class (why I am not a fan of the slow spawn waves and it not scaling with team size). Add to this that aliens are very hard to adapt to in terms of game and play style when coming from a pure FPS background. So you can be disappointed all you want. The fact remains that it is a delicate balance we are talking about, that can't be addressed by simply adding random hidden modifiers...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens are not hard to adapt to, I would even say their style of play isn't difficult. It's obviously harder then marines, but the real problem is that marines have a direct counter to everything aliens can do. Though, after playing a few more games today, I have realized one thing that has too happen. They need to turn on friendly fire.
It might not have a massive effect on balance (though it most certainly does to an extent) but I think the K:D ratio has a big psychological impact, especially for new players. When you're on alien and theres 2 or 3 good marines mopping up skulks like theres no tomorrow, it can already feel like game over just a few minutes in.
And last I checked K:D ratio is an extremely small part of balance, Skulks are simply more of a cannon fodder type of class (why I am not a fan of the slow spawn waves and it not scaling with team size). Add to this that aliens are very hard to adapt to in terms of game and play style when coming from a pure FPS background. So you can be disappointed all you want. The fact remains that it is a delicate balance we are talking about, that can't be addressed by simply adding random hidden modifiers...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't an attempt at selective quoting. The rest just was not relevant to the discussion.
No-one is discussing balance. The KDR is relevant because it is a symptom of the problem. We already know Skulks are designed and purposefully cannon fodder, thats what the thread is about and it is also part of the problem.
This particular asymmetrical aspect of NS2 is a bad thing for the game and will prevent large scale adoption. It adds too much frustration to Alien gameplay for the majority of people, leaving only the hardcore left. Psychologically people will always do more to avoid frustration than gain fun. Even if NS2 is the most fun game out there sometimes (and I believe it is), it also ranks quite high on the frustration scale too. This is what will make NS2 a niche game.
Aliens would take non-glancing friendly fire bites. Marines would get cauterizing bullets.
Sorry, that's not helping.
I'm going to echo my sentiments from other threads: Aliens don't deal enough damage to justify their "hit and run/ambush" design. You can sneak up on a Marine but once it takes 4-5 non-glancing (which is a stupid system but obviously we need to have hidden modifiers so that we don't have hidden modifiers modifying things in a hidden manner) hits, you can't get a sneak kill. Any Marine that isn't asleep instantly reacts to the first bite and they're either gunning you down or jetpacking to an Armory to get their armor repair instantly.
Skulks intentionally do not scale beyond cara/cele/leap/silence/xeno, and I think that's an unfortunate choice. They spend more time dead than marines, partially due to wave spawns, and so have less pres overall. The closest the Kharaa have to phase gates is forward shifts controlling spawns, and spawning at those locations is unreliable due to the current egg selection method being essentially nonfunctional, and priority not seeming to be given to newly spawned Shift eggs reliably. Walljumping is supposed to give an advantage to skulks, but there's no real instruction for new players on how to do it and it's not exactly what I'd call intuitive, meaning that balancing the game for competitive play leaves your average new pub player way behind the skulk handling curve.
And while we're at it... Xenocide? Really? If it worked at all reliably, I would have less issue with it, but what it primarily accomplishes is moving a skulk from the frontline back to wherever the game decides he's going to spawn this time. I don't ever research it unless someone asks me to.
I love being a skulk, because the tactical options you've got for movement and ambushing make the early game fun and I'm good enough at Lerk to not spend much of the A3/W3 midgame as a skulk. Being a brand-new marine, straight from the IP with no pres spent, is a decent thing to be at any point in the game if your arms lab is still online, and upgrading yourself to a shotgun, GL, or flamethrower is as easy as playing backup for a guy who's carrying one. Being a skulk in the mid and late game is definitely an uphill battle, because the only upgrades you're likely to have are leap, cele, and cara, which don't really cut it against jetpackers and A3/W3 marines who can actually shoot.
This is part of why marine stalemates last so long, and are ended by a giant wave of onii, btw. Kharaa have one real option for breaking sieges, and he costs 75 pres/tres. Anything lighter than that is usually just trying to survive grenade spam and the spawning machine that is a turtled marine base.
Hit and run ambusher, if you discount that marines have all the time in the world to just turn around and shoot you while you are getting bite 4 or 5 on them
Cannon fodder, if we forget they spawn like 3000 times slower than marines