Exo Vs Onos
Bullet_Force
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165952Members
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165952Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Balancing</div>Although both these units cost the same amount 75 each the Onos in a 1v1 situation will nearly always win. It's base stats are far superior 1300hp 600 armor(1000 with carapace) vs around 400 for a non upgraded Exo. As well as this the maps in general are very close quarters with limited long range firing opportunities negating the only advantage the Exo really has.
The Exo also costs much more to research: Armoury (10), Advanced Armory (20 res), Prototype lab (40 res), Exo research (40? res) then Dual minigun research (30 res). To fully upgrade the armor requires a further 75 resources (15 + 25 +35).
To get the Onos Aliens need to spend 40 res for a 2nd hive and 75 res for the egg. Carapace is a further 30 (Shell + research).
That amounts to 140 Marine res vs 115 Alien res.
Further are the multiple weaknesses of the Exo. It cannot use phase gates, is mega slow, without level 3 armor its very weak, one skunk at close range can make life hard and wherever it goes it needs a minimum of 1 welder but realistically at least 2. The Onos on the other hand can handle Marines without a problem even without a Gorge and unlike the Exo can easily outpace the Marines and sprint to the nearest Hive for a speed heal which the Exo also cannot do.
The last point is the timing at present it is definetely possible to create an Onos egg around the 5-6th minute mark if you are a good Alien commander. The first Exo will come well after the 10 minute mark at the earliest.
The Exo also costs much more to research: Armoury (10), Advanced Armory (20 res), Prototype lab (40 res), Exo research (40? res) then Dual minigun research (30 res). To fully upgrade the armor requires a further 75 resources (15 + 25 +35).
To get the Onos Aliens need to spend 40 res for a 2nd hive and 75 res for the egg. Carapace is a further 30 (Shell + research).
That amounts to 140 Marine res vs 115 Alien res.
Further are the multiple weaknesses of the Exo. It cannot use phase gates, is mega slow, without level 3 armor its very weak, one skunk at close range can make life hard and wherever it goes it needs a minimum of 1 welder but realistically at least 2. The Onos on the other hand can handle Marines without a problem even without a Gorge and unlike the Exo can easily outpace the Marines and sprint to the nearest Hive for a speed heal which the Exo also cannot do.
The last point is the timing at present it is definetely possible to create an Onos egg around the 5-6th minute mark if you are a good Alien commander. The first Exo will come well after the 10 minute mark at the earliest.
Comments
The Exo also costs much more to research: Armoury (10), Advanced Armory (20 res), Prototype lab (40 res), Exo research (40? res) then Dual minigun research (30 res). To fully upgrade the armor requires a further 75 resources (15 + 25 +35).
To get the Onos Aliens need to spend 40 res for a 2nd hive and 75 res for the egg. Carapace is a further 30 (Shell + research).
That amounts to 140 Marine res vs 115 Alien res.
Further are the multiple weaknesses of the Exo. It cannot use phase gates, is mega slow, without level 3 armor its very weak, one skunk at close range can make life hard and wherever it goes it needs a minimum of 1 welder but realistically at least 2. The Onos on the other hand can handle Marines without a problem even without a Gorge and unlike the Exo can easily outpace the Marines and sprint to the nearest Hive for a speed heal which the Exo also cannot do.
The last point is the timing at present it is definetely possible to create an Onos egg around the 5-6th minute mark if you are a good Alien commander. The first Exo will come well after the 10 minute mark at the earliest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oooooook so I'll start from the top. The onos with carapace has a total of 2300 hit points, the miniguns do 25 damage per bullet un-upgraded and treat armor as 1 point instead of 2 like an lmg does. Also there is no need to reload or stop firing a minigun if you are pacing well and if you have a dual there is no stopping at all if you alternate your guns properly. The minigun rate of fire is something like 10 bullets per second, so roughly 250 per second 500 with duals. An onos does 100 per hit with 1.9 seconds in between. So that's actually less than 50 per second. Going by that math we can say it takes a dual exo roughly 5 seconds to kill an onos, and a single about 10 seconds. The onos to kill the exo is about 8 seconds for the un-upgraded exo. So in conclusion, no an exo should win everytime if you're actually shooting properly and not just overheating your gun and starting right next to him.
The research cost for base exo is actually 30 and 20 for dual. So now it actually costs less than to get an onos. Not sure if you're aware, but a skilled exo can easily kill every skulk running down a hallway, but yea if you park yourself on a corner things will get in close and make things slightly less easy to shoot. But an onos unsupported against 3 or 4 marines is usually pretty well screwed as well. It only takes about 5 or 6 lmg mags to put one down.
It's actually possible to get an exo on the field within the first 3 to 4 minutes.
Exo's aren't built to 1v1 anything
However, hardly anybody does it because exos are usually fail, even late game. It's too easy to counter them with bile bomb, and they're not very mobile overall.
You'll see them in pubs a lot though. They absolutely destroy teams who don't have good gorges :-) .
Also, a dual a3 exo is a pretty good match for a carapace/celery® onos 1v1. Depending on the length of the shot the exo gets off before the onos starts hitting it, the battle could go either way.
Exos are balanced. They just require smart play.
About as quickly as a few W3 LMGs will, assuming the Exo can't just shoot the Lerks and thus that the Onos can't just gore the Marines.
This. Marines in late game shouldn't go out alone anyway.
As far as Onos go, it's an even match. Didn't you watch the NS2 trailer? Dual Minigun Exos can easily 1v1 an Onos, especially if the Exo gets in damage as the Onos is approaching or retreating. A lot of it comes down to how much time and heat the Exo wastes with missed shots.
The research cost for base exo is actually 30 and 20 for dual. So now it actually costs less than to get an onos. Not sure if you're aware, but a skilled exo can easily kill every skulk running down a hallway, but yea if you park yourself on a corner things will get in close and make things slightly less easy to shoot. But an onos unsupported against 3 or 4 marines is usually pretty well screwed as well. It only takes about 5 or 6 lmg mags to put one down.
It's actually possible to get an exo on the field within the first 3 to 4 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A few things. This assumes that minigun is accurate at range, which I don't think it is that accurate at long range. So while a players accuracy is important, it is still ameliorated by the bullet spread. This means it will only do full damage once the Onos enters a certain range. Assuming that the Exo is trying not to overheat his miniguns, he will not be getting the maximum dps possible. Otherwise if he wants maximum dps, the Exo will lose if he does not kill the Onos before overheating. This means there is a sensitivity for how the Exo must fire in order to maximize dps. Start firing to early, lose damage and potentially overheat. Too late and the Onos gores you to death. Secondly, it doesn't take into account time for the Onos to reach the Exo (which is probably the deciding factor of the engagement) and no one can deny the Onos has the advantage at gap closing vs. kiting here. Most people would agree that most situations involve an Onos clearing the distance in ~1 second. This translates into only a small ranged advantaged. Thirdly, the first Gore after Charge deals double damage. Meaning that the Onos quickly evens out any extra damage the Exo dealt during the Charge. According to the wiki, Gore is a special damage type that deals an addition 25% damage to players meaning it deals closer to 115 damage. This means it will take 4-5 hits depending on Armor level to kill an Exo normally. Although if we take the Charge into account, it's more like 3-4 hits. I can't find an actual attack fire delay quote for the Gore attack. The wiki only states that the Smash, used for buildings, has a 1.9 delay. I'm pretty sure Gore is faster than 1.9 though, although this could be wrong.
This situation is far more nuanced than strictly X unit does Y damage over Z seconds. However, most people would agree the Onos win these exchanges many, many times. I've been on both sides and the Exosuit is definitely the underdog in this exchange. Even an Onos with support performs more effectively than the Exo with support.
As for getting an Exo early? Why would anyone do that? You need to babysit the Exo and you need welders. Not too mention, you need a considerable investment to get there and it will take longer than getting an Onos. This means you'll have considerably weaker map presence and the Exo is not going to be able to push or hold in the way an Onos can. Plus, you can only drop normal Exos and we all know they're a weak joke at the moment. A perfect example of this is the competitive games, they're pretty much the same strategy every time. Onos for the aliens, push for jetpacks for the marines. If a skilled Exo could kill an Onos every time as well as clearing hallways of skulks all without being overrun, you'd be seeing them every game.
This situation is far more nuanced than strictly X unit does Y damage over Z seconds. However, most people would agree the Onos win these exchanges many, many times. I've been on both sides and the Exosuit is definitely the underdog in this exchange. Even an Onos with support performs more effectively than the Exo with support.
As for getting an Exo early? Why would anyone do that? You need to babysit the Exo and you need welders. Not too mention, you need a considerable investment to get there and it will take longer than getting an Onos. This means you'll have considerably weaker map presence and the Exo is not going to be able to push or hold in the way an Onos can. Plus, you can only drop normal Exos and we all know they're a weak joke at the moment. A perfect example of this is the competitive games, they're pretty much the same strategy every time. Onos for the aliens, push for jetpacks for the marines. If a skilled Exo could kill an Onos every time as well as clearing hallways of skulks all without being overrun, you'd be seeing them every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok first off onos doesn't use gore on exo, you'll notice if you attack an exo as an onos you do the structure attack. Please actually know what you're talking about before you correct me.
Secondly, no the spread is really negligible for the minigun when shooting at an onos. This is another one of those, if you played it you'd know type of things. Do yourself a favor jump into explore mode and just test some stuff out. You aren't going to miss an onos in a hallway with the minigun.
Thirdly from experience, most exos try to run when an onos is attacking them, which involves turning around and not shooting or just completely overheating their gun and then standing there. This is why it seems like exos die to oni a lot, it's from inexperience and panic. I also didn't take into account the punch you have as a single exo so I left that 50 damage per hit out of the equation.
Finally, your theory that you don't see exos every game is just plain wrong. I've seen them in a lot of comp matches I've watched. They make excellent siege weapons because they don't run out of ammo, and can just be repaired while they mow down the whole alien team. The down side is they are slow and when unsupported they will probably die cause they can't get medpack spam. As far as single exos being a weak joke, yea sort of, the punch does do 100% extra damage to buildings and doesn't require you to stop attacking ever. Also it won't melt a hive like dual miniguns. But even so, exos do great being able to just walk in and step on the eggs while shooting the hive. You won't see an early drop because people want to have upgrades before they get an exo.
For the similarly retarded Exo handler I'm still undecided. SolExo? Han Exo? Exolo? Ex-d'oh?
<img src="http://www.itusozluk.com/image/pull-a-homer_14846.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
One good gorge can keep an exo away from a hive pretty efficiently, especially with a shift by jumping/bile-bombing around corners, healing itself, jumping and bile-bombing some more, kiting back and forth just outside of LOS, sliding, jumping, etc.. However, what usually gets the gorges is not the exo itself, but the marine(s) next to the exo. If there are marines around the exo, you need teamwork :-) . Otherwise they chase the gorge down and kill it, or out-weld the bile-bomb damage. The gorge also makes MACs essentially useless. They go down to 4-5 BB hits I think, and their AI makes them cluster together, or cluster together around the exo in an attempt to heal it/heal each other, which makes them even more perfect of a target for a BB.
Situationally (e.g. sorting in mineshaft), there's no clear LOS between the gorge and the exo, but the gorge can still fire over obstacles or out of direct LOS on the exo, which makes those locations near-impossible to take with exos :-) (or at least both the gorge and the exo die in the end, if he decides to really rush hard).
And yes, unfortunately I have hardly seen anyone in pub games that I've played in the last few days using a gorge effectively. A gorge can absolutely DEMOLISH the sentry spam which occurs, as well as certain marine positions, but if someone is a gorge (and there aren't many to begin with) I usually see them sitting back and healing their hydras and making clogs in corridors.
Bile-bomb + carapace + adrenaline transforms gorges into ridiculous structure-melting, power-node-hosing monsters which are way underused in the current pub games. That's why the noobs usually make the robo factory first for the sentries on marine side (which they make in every room thereafter).
People will learn eventually though...
P.S. The bile-bomb damage over time DOES stack. That's what makes it incredibly powerful. If it didn't stack, it'd be completely useless. If there's no one in the marine base next game, try to bile-bomb the power node with 2 or 3 people. Go carapace/adrenaline and ignore everything else. Even if there's 2-3 marines shooting at 2-3 of you, you're likely to get the power node down (with some jumping and strafing around to try to avoid shots) even though you might die. You'll lose the 10 p.res, but the node will probably go down. If there are a couple skulks to then take out the marines with the surviving gorge(s) if any, you might just win the game.
Also... check out this LOLgame: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122331" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=122331</a>
Onos are obviously superior
I've seen tons of 1on1s and Onos completely stomps an Exo
It's not unbalanced to the point where 1 Onos can take on 2 Exos, but the slow speed makes it so Exos never have the upper hand
Dual-Mini Exo vs Onos is a toss-up, depending on how much range is involved. Also, a smart onos that circle strafes the exo, or waits till it's already fired off a long burst before engaging, will have a higher chance of success.
Single mini-gun exo vs onos mostly always loses due to lack of DPS. Understandable, since it's 50 res vs 75 res. Though there needs to be a role for the single mini-gun exo somewhere.
Exo's aren't built to 1v1 anything<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. They are built to 1v1 EVERYTHING. If you don't run into multiple onos you should find yourself slaughtering groups of "skulks/lerks/fades/ silly gorges that think that their bile bomb hurts you more than minigun bullets hurt them/combination of everything" endlessly to have an insane kdr. If you don't, you're doing something wrong. Or you're playing against an organized team of good players somehow. However, there is no way a single onos is scary for a dual minigun exosuit unless you derped pretty hard.
This.
Carapace-onos will die vs dualexo in most situations. Onos need to spot AND atack the exo first to have a good chance.
There is no threat for a singel dualexo vs any singel lifeform.
The more exos you have the stronger they get. because they are ranged. you have have 4-5 exo in a big clump and they own everything. They have range and can thus attack from anywhere.
The more onos you have the weaker they get, because they are bigger, they only have melee. Onos needs to get up close to attack.
You cannot balance on cost alone. If you let Onos get into melee it should do tons and tons of dmg. because it has to get into melee.
Exo can shoot as soon as they see something.
Onos is supposed to be a power tank on its own, because thats what aliens need.
Exo is a support unit, yet everygame i play all marines just save up to 5-6 exo's and own everything. Even with onos you cannot get into a group of that many exos, they instant kill everything.
Exo's aren't built to 1v1 anything<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another quote from this one.
The Exo also costs much more to research: Armoury (10), Advanced Armory (20 res), Prototype lab (40 res), Exo research (40? res) then Dual minigun research (30 res). To fully upgrade the armor requires a further 75 resources (15 + 25 +35).
To get the Onos Aliens need to spend 40 res for a 2nd hive and 75 res for the egg. Carapace is a further 30 (Shell + research).
That amounts to 140 Marine res vs 115 Alien res.
Further are the multiple weaknesses of the Exo. It cannot use phase gates, is mega slow, without level 3 armor its very weak, one skunk at close range can make life hard and wherever it goes it needs a minimum of 1 welder but realistically at least 2. The Onos on the other hand can handle Marines without a problem even without a Gorge and unlike the Exo can easily outpace the Marines and sprint to the nearest Hive for a speed heal which the Exo also cannot do.
The last point is the timing at present it is definetely possible to create an Onos egg around the 5-6th minute mark if you are a good Alien commander. The first Exo will come well after the 10 minute mark at the earliest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are wrong.
Onos have more health and armor, but is MELEE ONLY.
While Exo have less armor but is RANGED and have 2x more dps.
You need to play both class differently.
As onos you need to avoid long hallway and ambush people offguard around corner to close distance without being shot.
While as an Exo you need to avoid tight places and maximise your time spent in hallway where closing distance to you without being seen is impossible.
Onos:
+Health and Armor
+Mobility
-Damage
-Only Melee range
Exos:
+Far superior Damage (if you can aim)
+Unlimited range, very destructive at long/medium/close range
+Can be healed easier (doesnt need to be 1 class to heal, can be healed by all the marines if they cary welders)
-Mobility
-Health
If a onos rush headfirst on a Dual mini gun exo(even the single mini gun exo + punch)
The onos will be killed in a matter of seconds.
Onos also have to go inside the ennemy base to do damage,which is way more risky,
Exos can stay on the outskirt of the ennemy base putting huge ammount of pressure on the hive while being supported by a crew of welder/jetpack/gl
This is also why marines turtle and aliens basically cant,because exos dont need to enter a room and put themselves as much as risk as aliens and onos to kill the hive.
2 very different class.
must play them differently.
the end.
Just lol.... I'd love to see a marine look at 4-5 onos and say "sweet stupid onos are in a pack". 1 onos has like 2000 effective hp... That means 5 onos have 10,000 effective hp.... Good luck doing enough DPS.
Secondly, no the spread is really negligible for the minigun when shooting at an onos. This is another one of those, if you played it you'd know type of things. Do yourself a favor jump into explore mode and just test some stuff out. You aren't going to miss an onos in a hallway with the minigun.
Thirdly from experience, most exos try to run when an onos is attacking them, which involves turning around and not shooting or just completely overheating their gun and then standing there. This is why it seems like exos die to oni a lot, it's from inexperience and panic. I also didn't take into account the punch you have as a single exo so I left that 50 damage per hit out of the equation.
Finally, your theory that you don't see exos every game is just plain wrong. I've seen them in a lot of comp matches I've watched. They make excellent siege weapons because they don't run out of ammo, and can just be repaired while they mow down the whole alien team. The down side is they are slow and when unsupported they will probably die cause they can't get medpack spam. As far as single exos being a weak joke, yea sort of, the punch does do 100% extra damage to buildings and doesn't require you to stop attacking ever. Also it won't melt a hive like dual miniguns. But even so, exos do great being able to just walk in and step on the eggs while shooting the hive. You won't see an early drop because people want to have upgrades before they get an exo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are correct, sir. I could've sworn it was the Gore attack they used, but after looking up a few videos I see that it was Smash.
I know the spread is negligible for hitting an Onos. I was implying that there is a point at long range you won't hit with every round. I was trying to point to a window of opportunity where the Exo must begin firing to maximize dps without overheating and thus more likely to prevail against the Onos.
Although, with some testing it appears that you can fire the minigun for ~7 seconds before it overheats. If we infer from your math and this, then anyone should easily be able to down an Onos with a DualExo. And yet we don't see Onos dying in droves against even the most mediocre players. It wouldn't even take a skilled Exo to push his minigun to the limit and down an Onos. I feel like some piece of the equation is missing. Are we sure the minigun has the same fire delay as the assault rifle (i.e. 0.1)? Is fire delay measured in seconds or in some unit made up by UWE? It still takes between 2 and 6 hits to kill an Exo, depending on Armor level and whether the Onos was able to Charge. Perhaps the difference in views here comes from different levels of Armor research every game? Out of curiousity, does an Exo take damage like a structure, that is to say are structural/corrode attacks more effective against them?
Are you sure Exos mostly try to run? I'm pretty sure every marine quickly learns its futile to run from the Onos unless you can fly and it's even worse in an Exo.
I've never run in an Exo due to the futility of trying to outpace anything as an Exo lol.
And actually my 'theory' isn't wrong, it doesn't preclude seeing them in games. Just that comp players tend to use whatever is the most effective strategy and that if Dual Exos were as effective as they are being made out to be we'd see them every game. Instead, we usually see a push for jetpacks to outmaneuver the Xenos and their early Onos.
Honestly, the Onos needs to be nerfed so that the UWE can see where the chips fall and give the other Xenos forms the love they deserve.
Side-note: I was not disagreeing with you just trying to show the fight was more nuanced than just DualExos beat Onos if played right (even if I failed to imply that lol).
Exos can hit the Gen hive from the bottom floor. If they're fighting at close range (against fade and onos), that's not good. An onos has to work to close the distance, just like any other alien except lerk.
The more exos you have the stronger they get. because they are ranged. you have have 4-5 exo in a big clump and they own everything. They have range and can thus attack from anywhere.
The more onos you have the weaker they get, because they are bigger, they only have melee. Onos needs to get up close to attack.
You cannot balance on cost alone. If you let Onos get into melee it should do tons and tons of dmg. because it has to get into melee.
Exo can shoot as soon as they see something.
Onos is supposed to be a power tank on its own, because thats what aliens need.
Exo is a support unit, yet everygame i play all marines just save up to 5-6 exo's and own everything. Even with onos you cannot get into a group of that many exos, they instant kill everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true to a point, but if the Marines went with 6 Exo's to push out of a double-CC turtle while the Aliens hold the rest of the map it will fail versus any reasonably skilled Aliens. This is because the Exo's are so slow that the aliens can pull back all their Onos and rush into the area where the Exo's are not and destroy everything. The mobility of Aliens win's the game vs. a newbish team that all go Exo. Also, when this happens there's a tendency for everyone to forget that they need welder troops to actually succeed. This results in paper Exo's that die to simple skulk/bile bomb attrition.
Exo's played well are just fine and do wonderfully. Exo's played poorly, which is far more often, is fail waiting to happen on many different levels. On a team of 7 Marines, no more than two players should be an Exo. The rest should have jetpacks, welders, and flamethrowers/GL and practice their 'hit-and-run tactics' by jumping forward of the Exo's clearing structures while the Exo's cover them. They are not front-line troops. They are actually heavy weapons <i>support</i>, meaning they cover the light infantry and put constant firepower on large structures (I.E. Hives).
Also, I have a slightly related question: does the gorge heal spray have diminishing returns? (Healspray = 8 HP + 3% of target's total HP according to the wiki) Because if not, that's kind of ridiculous. Or not, I have no idea about the number crunching, but regardless, I feel like the one thing that Frontiersmen have the biggest difficulty stopping is Oni. This may be just a lack of strategy, but I wholeheartedly believe that it's because they simply have no answer to an Onos other than super-expensive tech that's, frankly, rather fragile.
The more exos you have the stronger they get. because they are ranged. you have have 4-5 exo in a big clump and they own everything. They have range and can thus attack from anywhere.
The more onos you have the weaker they get, because they are bigger, they only have melee. Onos needs to get up close to attack.
You cannot balance on cost alone. If you let Onos get into melee it should do tons and tons of dmg. because it has to get into melee.
Exo can shoot as soon as they see something.
Onos is supposed to be a power tank on its own, because thats what aliens need.
Exo is a support unit, yet everygame i play all marines just save up to 5-6 exo's and own everything. Even with onos you cannot get into a group of that many exos, they instant kill everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experience, 6 exos going for hives almost always results in a base rush race, which the exos will typically lose (depending on the distance between hives, and the obstacles in the way). Suffice to say, a group of skulks and 1 or 2 Onos, running from comm chair to comm chair, will ordinarily beat a train of exos going between two hives. If the aliens only have one hive, then they deserve to lose. Its like 6 Onos rushing marine's only base.