If the Problems and Restrictions surrounding serverside Mods are not solved, I do NOT want to host a

SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2013 in Modding
[color=red][size=5]Original Post moved to Page 2, as the new forum destroyed links & formation and left it impossible to fix.[/size][/color]
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Comments

  • TSiOmiCronTSiOmiCron Join Date: 2012-08-05 Member: 154795Members
    Amen brother. I couldn't agree more with what you are saying.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    +1, the yellow colour alone surely is enough to indicate that the server is modded? The filter shouldn't be on by default.
  • MagnetoMagneto Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75856Members
    I've asked them about the filter multiple times so i guess it's deliberate, i don't have a problem with it being on when someone starts the game for the very first time but not every time, settings should be saved but really it shouldn't be on by default now that modded servers are clearly marked, people aren't stupid and really theres no harm even if they did enter one without realising.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    Maybe this should be paired with "Rookie" mode?

    Maybe while you are a rookie there is no option for modded servers (they get filtered out by default), but after you graduate from being a rookie, then maybe you get a notification that there are also modded servers and the option appears (defaulted to allow modded servers).

    That way it wouldn't impact first experiences, but there would be a point where people would discover modded servers without requiring them to do anything special.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I will say (atleast regarding DAK), that I attempted to make a system that would allow people to make their own plugins relatively easily, which could be published to workshop even individually, and added to the server to allow greater customization. Beyond that, there are ways around the current restrictions with consistency checks and modded filters, Where you can run server side mods, pass as a vanilla server and still have the client fully consistency checked. I know that currently UWE wants to keep the game experience somewhat standardized, which is why I dont suggest people work around it. Im hoping that they will improve the server browser and how it handles modded servers, which would resolve any issues officially.
  • SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2006425:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 2 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1, the yellow colour alone surely is enough to indicate that the server is modded?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Indeed.

    <!--quoteo(post=2006652:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:53 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Nov 2 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe this should be paired with "Rookie" mode?

    Maybe while you are a rookie there is no option for modded servers (they get filtered out by default), but after you graduate from being a rookie, then maybe you get a notification that there are also modded servers and the option appears (defaulted to allow modded servers).

    That way it wouldn't impact first experiences, but there would be a point where people would discover modded servers without requiring them to do anything special.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thats a rather nice idea.

    <!--quoteo(post=2006788:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:03 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 2 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will say (atleast regarding DAK), that I attempted to make a system that would allow people to make their own plugins relatively easily, which could be published to workshop even individually, and added to the server to allow greater customization. Beyond that, there are ways around the current restrictions with consistency checks and modded filters, Where you can run server side mods, pass as a vanilla server and still have the client fully consistency checked. I know that currently UWE wants to keep the game experience somewhat standardized, which is why I dont suggest people work around it. Im hoping that they will improve the server browser and how it handles modded servers, which would resolve any issues officially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Very interesting. dePARA just told me that its possible to install your DAK mod without Steamworks and with fully functional consistency checking too.
    That way, the server is not flagged as modded either.
    Awesome work, I will try it asap. You should teach the other modders how to do that. :]

    And I understand that UWE wants to keep the game experience consistent. However, the current way of handling it, is way too agressive, restrictive and discriminating against modded servers.
    Marking modded servers is more than enough. <b>(Note: And only if they actually are running mods that change the gameplay. Servers running DAK, NS2Stats or ANYTHING else that is not certain to change the gameplay, should NOT be flagged as modded.)</b>

    In fact, I think that it should be the Admins responsibility as a setting, to decide wheter or not their server should be flagged.
    Or, if mods are changing the gameplay, they could automaticly set it.
    I honestly doubt that there would be any admins who'd mod the gameplay without informing the players about it.

    If I was running anything that changed the gameplay on my server, I'd even put it in the name.
    UWE needs to put that much trust into us server admins.
  • WalsaWalsa Join Date: 2011-06-28 Member: 106813Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    +1

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very interesting. dePARA just told me that its possible to install your DAK mod without Steamworks and with fully functional consistency checking too.
    That way, the server is not flagged as modded either.
    Awesome work, I will try it asap. You should teach the other modders how to do that. :]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Could someone PM me how to do this?. Thanks
  • Silent262Silent262 Join Date: 2012-09-21 Member: 160267Members
    I really don't think ADMINISTRATIVE mods should count as mods at all. Also, if res slots is a mod, killing my server, and thus killing the need for res slots... think about that. PLEASE.

    +1 just colors for mods, or better yet a tag section. Barring colors for administrative mods.
  • MuzzzyMuzzzy Join Date: 2005-07-20 Member: 56360Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2006372:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:14 AM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ Nov 2 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>[3] Small Private Mods and Branches of bigger Mods</b></u>
    Both Whitelisting and Steam Workshop requirement are making it very hard and impractical for individual server admins to develope their own, customized branches / versions out of "mainstream" mods.
    It also affects the developement of small private mods, as each mod/plugin, no matter how small or minor, has to be uploaded to Steam Workshop <b>and</b> be whitelisted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Check out your %appdata%/roaming/Natural Selection 2/workshop folder. You can make as many tweaks as you like to a mod, probably re-upload it onto the workshop, and voila.
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2006372:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:14 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ Nov 2 2012, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[list]<u><b>[1] Modded Server Browser Filter & Whitelist</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is my biggest issue currently. It's quite unmotivating to develop a mod knowing that almost no one will use it just because it will be filtered from the server list.
  • CodeineCodeine Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75155Members
  • SintSint Join Date: 2007-01-09 Member: 59540Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2012
    +1, if something there should be checkbox for "show only unmodded/vanilla servers" instead of current system. NS1 did not even have colors and at least I did not have any problems with mods there. Also I think that most of the servers had mods in them.

    Well now its possible to see mod names because of workshop, so that should be implemented on server browser. Clicking/mouseovering on server should bring mod names what server is using, and players should be able to filter for serves with specific mods.

    Dunno about coloring modded servers, it could be something else, like a small icons of mods what server is using.

    One problem might be that there are those script errors/or other errors after new builds, so mods should be able to select if they get disabled automatically on next build or not. And then get re-enabled after mod makers makes new version. So server admins do not need to change settings always when there is new build if they are using mods that break after new builds.
  • HuzeHuze Insightful Join Date: 2003-11-12 Member: 22724Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/zvUbO.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    I like the way TF2's server brower does it.
    <ul><li>Show every server by default</li><li>'Game' tab shows custom gametypes (NS2C or combat)</li><li>'Tags' would show every mod running on the server</li><li>Filter to include/exclude certain mods from the viewing list</li></ul>

    Setting the Game mode would be encouraged for mods that massively affect gameplay.
  • SteamyTacoSteamyTaco Join Date: 2012-03-06 Member: 148274Members
    I'm with you. I have loved to have DAK Admin Mod on my servers so AFK people can be kicked and playing players can play (very playing rite there.) instead of our admins having to kick them.

    I also started a while ago to code a global banning system but the idea stopped when they ###### this system up. The way they do this is very annoying, no answers, no public whitelist site and the "most moddable game" is just now a joke for me. If they don't fix this by next month I have to shut the servers down as it isn't fun anymore.

    Please UWE, fix this. An admin mod can't be considered "modded" when only the admin can see it, and the players are allowed to CHOOSE the next map.
  • SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2012
    Thanks for all the support, guys.

    <!--quoteo(post=2007010:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:22 PM:name=Walsa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Walsa @ Nov 2 2012, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1



    Could someone PM me how to do this?. Thanks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It's not a secret, nor should it be. It's <b>not</b> an exploit, bug or hack after all and could be easily disabled, if UWE really wanted to do that.

    There are actually two ways:

    To install a serverside mod without having the server flagged as modded, it's enough to simply use the old way of installing mods, by copying the mods folder to the servers <b>\Natural Selection 2\</b> directory and adding the startup parameter <b>-game <the mods folder name></b>
    Unfortunaly, this way of running the mod still conflicts with Consistency Checking, which would have to be turned off.

    Thankfully, there is an almost equally easy way of installing mods with the exactly same benefits and fully functional, non-conflicting Consistency Checking.
    It consists of simply loading the mod through server.lua.
    In case of the DAK Admin Mod, the mods lua folders contents are copied directly into <b>\Natural Selection 2\ns2\lua</b> and <b>server.lua</b> is then modified, to load DAK Admin Mod.

    There have been a few bugs loading the mod this way, but Dragon was awesome enough to fix them last night & add support for loading DAK over server.lua. :]
    The newest release is always here: <a href="https://github.com/xToken/DAK" target="_blank">https://github.com/xToken/DAK</a>
    It includes a readme with more detailed instructions as well.
  • Silent262Silent262 Join Date: 2012-09-21 Member: 160267Members
    Thank you very much Security! Hopefully we get a more direct route soon!
  • MaxunitMaxunit Join Date: 2005-02-01 Member: 39414Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Thanks a lot Security. I was pretty easy to modify the Server.lua and to integrate DAK. Managed it in a minute :P
  • MikeusMikeus Join Date: 2006-11-10 Member: 58520Members
    I'm getting a "client and server differ" error when trying to join whenever I add in Script.Load("lua/DAKLoader.lua") to line 23 in the shared.lua.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=2011936:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:30 PM:name=Mikeus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mikeus @ Nov 5 2012, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm getting a "client and server differ" error when trying to join whenever I add in Script.Load("lua/DAKLoader.lua") to line 23 in the shared.lua.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    you would need to load it via server.lua. anyway, with next patch the filter modded will be stored in the steamcloud options, like any other filter currently is and modded servers appear in yellow. we will continue making the server browser better, especially at showing mods. i mean, thats one of the core features of the engine, being easily modable and open source game code, so please dont be so pessimistic here :)
  • w0dk4w0dk4 Join Date: 2008-04-22 Member: 64129Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Ya, I gotta say I like the direction this is going. NS2 is by far one of the most easy-to-mod games from both a player and developer point of view. Not many games support downloading and installing a (potentially total conversion) mod on a simple server connect.

    So keep it up and also +1 to original post ;)
    Oh, and we also could use some more verified documentation, would be cool if the devs would actually update a Wiki rather than propagate information in random forum posts ;)
  • SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2012044:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:10 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 6 2012, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you would need to load it via server.lua. anyway, with next patch the filter modded will be stored in the steamcloud options, like any other filter currently is and modded servers appear in yellow. we will continue making the server browser better, especially at showing mods. i mean, thats one of the core features of the engine, being easily modable and open source game code, so please dont be so pessimistic here :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thats a start, but still doesn't answer the majority of questions and concerns of my original post & my thread on the server forum.

    Something like <i>"Don't worry, everything will be fine."</i> is not quite satisfying. ;)


    <!--quoteo(post=2012072:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:33 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (w0dk4 @ Nov 6 2012, 04:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and we also could use some more verified documentation, would be cool if the devs would actually update a Wiki rather than propagate information in random forum posts ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This.

    More communication would solve a lot of problems and possibly unnecessary (probably, I hope..) concerns.
  • MaxunitMaxunit Join Date: 2005-02-01 Member: 39414Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think the small team from UWE is currently way to busy with optimizing the engine, working on the linux binaries for the server software and improving the tools.

    Surely, there would be a good! amount of work for someone, who would go and update the Wiki on UWE's behalf with information coming straight from UWE.
  • LofungLofung Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2008981:date=Nov 4 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ Nov 4 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for all the support, guys.


    It's not a secret, nor should it be. It's <b>not</b> an exploit, bug or hack after all and could be easily disabled, if UWE really wanted to do that.

    There are actually two ways:

    To install a serverside mod without having the server flagged as modded, it's enough to simply use the old way of installing mods, by copying the mods folder to the servers <b>\Natural Selection 2\</b> directory and adding the startup parameter <b>-game <the mods folder name></b>
    Unfortunaly, this way of running the mod still conflicts with Consistency Checking, which would have to be turned off.

    Thankfully, there is an almost equally easy way of installing mods with the exactly same benefits and fully functional, non-conflicting Consistency Checking.
    It consists of simply loading the mod through server.lua.
    In case of the DAK Admin Mod, the mods lua folders contents are copied directly into <b>\Natural Selection 2\ns2\lua</b> and <b>server.lua</b> is then modified, to load DAK Admin Mod.

    There have been a few bugs loading the mod this way, but Dragon was awesome enough to fix them last night & add support for loading DAK over server.lua. :]
    The newest release is always here: <a href="https://github.com/xToken/DAK" target="_blank">https://github.com/xToken/DAK</a>
    It includes a readme with more detailed instructions as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    thank you. i am so excited that i cant wait to install it when i get back to home!
  • kk20kk20 Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164592Members
    So if I am reading this correctly, if you alter the core NS server.lua to launch your mod(s) then it would appear as non-modded (i.e. no need for filtering) *with* consistency?
  • MaxunitMaxunit Join Date: 2005-02-01 Member: 39414Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2016808:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:03 PM:name=kk20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk20 @ Nov 9 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So if I am reading this correctly, if you alter the core NS server.lua to launch your mod(s) then it would appear as non-modded (i.e. no need for filtering) *with* consistency?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ^This, but it won't really work with mods so far, which modify other original files, like NS1 Movement Mod, NS2Stats or NS2C. I tried it, without success.
  • StukaJU87cStukaJU87c Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166988Members
    edited November 2012
    I added the line to server.lua and I am getting the "client and server differ" error...any thoughts? The error seems to be coming from the modified gamesetup.xml.


    Edit: upon removing the modified gamesetup.xml the server loads fine...however the mod does not load. The line is in server.lua, and load from lua is set to true in the config.
  • MaxunitMaxunit Join Date: 2005-02-01 Member: 39414Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    You actually only modify the Server.lua from line 13 to 23. You have to add one line around line 13 and one line around line 23. Re-read the instructions, it might sound a bit confusing at first.
  • TechnIckSTechnIckS Join Date: 2007-01-14 Member: 59616Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2016831:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Maxunit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maxunit @ Nov 9 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^This, but it won't really work with mods so far, which modify other original files, like NS1 Movement Mod, NS2Stats or NS2C. I tried it, without success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    6 hours later and i still can't figure out a way to bypass ns2stats :P
    Looks like the consistency check is based on file differences from server to client - and only client files seem to be checked against the ones on the server - so we can't touch any client files, but can add any server side files we want (and not modify the existing ones i suppose, exception here being server.lua)

    But i am not giving up yet - i'm trying to find what it really does on the client side and see if i can move it server side. I'm sure it's not going to work but hey, i'm bored.
  • fsfodfsfod uk Join Date: 2004-04-09 Member: 27810Members, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    you could just use hooks instead of blanket replacing files that are consistency checked unless you've added extra network messages or code that needs to run on the client
  • InkInk Join Date: 2009-08-15 Member: 68499Members
    Security I have to agree with you 100% on modded servers being filtered, I would have never have found fun things if I had them filtered.

    Custom maps/mods/plugins was a big reason I stuck with NS1, and any game I played, CS/Sven/TFC/Etc.

    Basically what I am trying to say is that we need freefall and gorgezilla and all that stuff.
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