Armor Three Marines- Thoughts?
Chalarie
Join Date: 2012-05-03 Member: 151459Members
Join Date: 2012-05-03 Member: 151459Members
I just got out of a game as Aliens where the marine team rushed armor 3 before most other tech. The game quickly became very frustrating. 5-6 bites to take out a single marine, and when you give a player that much time to kill you, it doesn't exactly take a good shot to take you out. I found myself dying 1v1 against marines after sneaking up behind them and getting bites in before they even see me. This isn't really a problem with the armor level itself, as it is quite necessary against higher lifeforms, but seeing it early game just sucked.
Anyways, I wanted to hear your guys' opinions. Do you think we need to tie upgrades to CC's? Does it just need a lower armor level? I don't really know what to think myself, so that's why I'm asking you!
Thanks! :)
Anyways, I wanted to hear your guys' opinions. Do you think we need to tie upgrades to CC's? Does it just need a lower armor level? I don't really know what to think myself, so that's why I'm asking you!
Thanks! :)
Comments
What i though would be to get rid of the third tier and just make lv 1 and 2, making that 1 grants 15 % and second is 30% (now they are 10/20/30 % for both weapons and armor at every upgrade). Ofc the Tres costs for the upgrade should be adjusted but that what came into my mind trying to balance that.
But I'm about as new as this game's release, so far my experience has been that when we lose its because the other team out-strategized(not a word) ours or was just better at fighting, or both. Not a whole lot of things I could attribute as unfair since I've been in overwhelmingly losing or winning situations with both teams, generally due to our better start/endgame play.
What i though would be to get rid of the third tier and just make lv 1 and 2, making that 1 grants 15 % and second is 30% (now they are 10/20/30 % for both weapons and armor at every upgrade). Ofc the Tres costs for the upgrade should be adjusted but that what came into my mind trying to balance that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if they went armor3, and had the res to do it, it's because the alien commander (and team) didnt harass them, didn't destroy their rt, didnt expand. The were winning not the "armor" race, but the resource race. And even if it was locked to 2 cc, they would have res to place a second cc.
In beta, however, you needed 2cc to have armor and weapon 2 and 3.
It was not a problem, anyway. 2cc is mandatory as 2hives.
what alien players don't understand is that skulks are cannon-fodder, expendable units.
Especially early game they should move as a team and attack continuously.
The one who dies, go the other side to destroy RT, and each one that dies follows the first.
Alien have to get control on territory, and negate res to marines.
In beta, however, you needed 2cc to have armor and weapon 2 and 3.
It was not a problem, anyway. 2cc is mandatory as 2hives.
what alien players don't understand is that skulks are cannon-fodder, expendable units.
Especially early game they should move as a team and attack continuously.
The one who dies, go the other side to destroy RT, and each one that dies follows the first.
Alien have to get control on territory, and negate res to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't be too hard on him, its a well know and acknowledged fact that aliens don't scale well against marines. Endgame marines > endgame aliens. You argument is correct, that the marines should never be allowed to reach endgame, but it doesn't seem fair that marines aren't being heavily discouraged from allowing aliens to reach endgame. Marines only goal is to stop aliens reaching second hive.
And I don't see why skulks are cannon-fodder while LMG marines are not. They are both just as mobile, free and controlled by a player who will be expecting a bit of fun.
Personally I would like to see a build where only W1/A1 was available, and alien higher lifeform armour/damage was scaled back to compensate. Hopefully would scale better against eachother, as what your weapon or lifeform was is what would be important.
And I don't see why skulks are cannon-fodder while LMG marines are not. They are both just as mobile, free and controlled by a player who will be expecting a bit of fun.
Personally I would like to see a build where only W1/A1 was available, and alien higher lifeform armour/damage was scaled back to compensate. Hopefully would scale better against eachother, as what your weapon or lifeform was is what would be important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it was not agaist him, sorry if I was intended that way.
marines are cannon-fodder too, but less than alien for me. what i mean is that for example if you manage to damage a marine, he has to come back to armory or be killed in next wave of attack.
As skulk should ambush, using ceilings, vents etc, a marine damaged has three option, when expanding:
1) fly back to armory
2) ask commander for health (tres losing)
3) slow your movements
so also the "slowing" effect is a good thing, that helps your team to reach 2nd hive, resources etc.
Also, if you die, there is less delay from wave spawning of aliens against marines. I mean: at start, if three marines are killed, the last one waits 21 seconds, and have to travel alone to reach the team.
if three aliens die, they spawn in 12 (or 14?) seconds together (given enough eggs, obviously).
So, at least in pub, being agressive as alien is preferred for me, and also better as attacking togheter helps other mates to close the gap.
So, if i'm ambushing and I see a skulk coming past my location, I go with him.
In beta, however, you needed 2cc to have armor and weapon 2 and 3.
It was not a problem, anyway. <u><b>2cc is mandatory as 2hives.</b></u>
what alien players don't understand is that skulks are cannon-fodder, expendable units.
Especially early game they should move as a team and attack continuously.
The one who dies, go the other side to destroy RT, and each one that dies follows the first.
Alien have to get control on territory, and negate res to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree with everything else you said, also in the successive posts, There is really nobody that could say something like that thinking it seriously.
Let's just take 1 alien hive vs 1 marine CC and just give them even less than 10 minutes to upgrade. What do we get at the tick of that 10 minutes?
Marines have shotguns (deadliest weapon in the game atm), at least a2 and w2, maybe also GLs and why not, a mini army of ARCs and MACs to support them.
What do the aliens have? Carapace or Celerity. Wow. That's really going to win you the game isn't it?
I don't want to sound offensive or immature, but these are the facts at their most nude state, the second hive is SO fundamental for the aliens to just even think of victory that it's really not fun in searching alternative and dynamic ways of playing the game.
Tweak the numbers, buff them, nerf them, do what is needed but I really hope the aliens will become more enjoyable to play because they are the only reason I bought this game
at that stage in the game if you want to do more than harrass bases or cause distraction for your teammates, you should have a better lifeform like lerk, onos or fade.
the other thing is to NOT to dumb stuff with your valuable resources... i.e. when you're a fade, don't stick around when they have exo's and shotgun marines around - just get 1-2 hits then GTFO and don't go back in unless you have full hp etc. DO NOT OVEREXTEND.
marines can afford to die, but they're slow as hell and can't retreat from anything.
aliens cannot afford to die, but they're super mobile and are able to retreat from anything. you're also able to use the mobility to pick your battles, if you're doing it right then dying is a calculated risk and not a "LOLZ MARIEN KEEEEL KEEL!" without even thinking first.
even dying as a skulk is costly, you don't gain pres while waiting to spawn. i think the respawn is usually 7-14 seconds, if you have 3-5 extractors, then you effectively lose 3 pres in a best case situation and 9 pres worst case - for a SINGLE DEATH. (that's not even counting your evolution cost if you died as a higher lifeform).
this is the game mechanics, if you're a newbie who just charges directly at the first marine he see's then you probably won't have any pres to spend for a loooooooooooooooooong time. i facepalm when i see my alien teammates do that... hive is under attack by 4-5 marines and they just charge in there as a lone skulk - that's totally braindead.
Let's just take 1 alien hive vs 1 marine CC and just give them even less than 10 minutes to upgrade. What do we get at the tick of that 10 minutes?
Marines have shotguns (deadliest weapon in the game atm), at least a2 and w2, maybe also GLs and why not, a mini army of ARCs and MACs to support them.
What do the aliens have? Carapace or Celerity. Wow. That's really going to win you the game isn't it?
I don't want to sound offensive or immature, but these are the facts at their most nude state, the second hive is SO fundamental for the aliens to just even think of victory that it's really not fun in searching alternative and dynamic ways of playing the game.
Tweak the numbers, buff them, nerf them, do what is needed but I really hope the aliens will become more enjoyable to play because they are the only reason I bought this game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can explain further why I say that 2cc is mandatory.
you have many reasons:
1) you will be near another tech point and probably to another hive
2) aliens can expand only on another tech point (thus if you kill an hive, they have to drop second and you know where, as in much of the maps there are 5 in total)
3) you will need earlier or later the jp and the exo.
4) you need a backup if one base fails
if you stick to 1 cc, aliens will go for onos and game is over as soon as you rush the power node with an onos and a gorge. if i'm alien commander and the other team don't go for 2nd cc, i go for third hive, and probably also for 4th so they can't get jp and exo.
game is not "1 hive vs 1 cc", game is "how much territory you can secure?" more the territory, more the probability to win.
However, when biting a marine becomes more a case of survival rather than biting enough times to get lucky, you don't mind as much. In the case you outlined above, it wouldn't matter if they had Armor 3, because with weapons 0 you have easily enough time to land those bites.
I facepalm when I see tard aliens watching marines take down a hive without doing something about it.
But hey, thats just me. I was taught that in order to find out if you can or cannot do something you have to try. If you dont try you dont know.
Those skulks went into survival mode and tried tos ave the hive, while others were cowardly shaking perched on the roof. Pretty clear to me who was more useful.
That isn't what Yoda said.
There's also bile bomb, spores, and other buddies that can help weaken them for you.
There's also bile bomb, spores, and other buddies that can help weaken them for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with trying weaken the marines is that their commander probably build a armory around the next corner.
So it'll be:
* skulk runs in lands 2-3 bites
* skulk retreats back to hive to heal up
* marine retreats back to armory to heal up
* repeat
I don't see the point in doing hit and run if I know they have some sorts of supply nearby. Hit and run only really works if your team manages to hit them again before they manage to reach a armory (for example lone marines/exos strolling around), or if they're just to stupid to retreat 50m backwards. Aliens, especially late-game, have to break the frontlines in a coordinated attack and rush through to win. There is no wearing down with welders, macs, armorys and healthdrops.
This gets the most annoying if the game is basically won for the aliens at minute 30 but the all-upgrades-marines manage to turtle for 20 extra minutes in their last base.
The issue I have with bog-standard skulk vs. bog-standard marine is that the marine gets A3 / W3 for free. The skulk gets a few upgrades for free as well, but carapace is basically canceled out by W3, whereas the skulk has nothing to cancel out A3. The whole reason I'm working on this line of thought is because much as a skulk would have to invest pres into a higher lifeform to remain competitive, so too would the marines. Suddenly, your freshly-spawned grunt who wasted his pres doesn't have enough to grab an HMG and heavy armor (W3 / A3). He still has his LMG and basic armor, but now he's not going to be totally capable of fragging the skulks who are also freshly spawning, and therefore just have their basic, crappy bite attack.
If marine pres rates had to be adjusted to give them more, so they can afford stuff slightly more often, that's cool, and is expected, but really, hidden bonuses like +x% damage are kind of lame, especially since the aliens can't really tell what upgrades they have anyway. With extra guns and armor, the aliens can tell, marines are punished for squandering pres, so it seems alright to me.
Spoken like someone who's never played a skulk against vanilla mid / endgame marines.
The only direct combat upgrade Skulks can get costs 50 res and it's called the Fade. Jetpack + shotgun costs only 30 res, the shotguns can be recovered infinitely dropping the cost to 10 res, and anyone willing to be honest will admit that the shotgun + jetpack is basically the most cost-effective unit in the game. Shotguns absolutely tear everything apart including structures, and the jetpack mobility affords marines a huge amount of survivability.
A skulk gets absolutely no firepower upgrade, which means the stock marine with A3 will survive considerably longer. The flipside is that the skulk can get carapace for free, <b>but carapace is highly negated in effectiveness by W3 LMGs</b>.
Someone did the math on here. Carapace vs. W3 LMGs = 1 more bullet to kill, than no carapace with W0 LMGs. Yes, the skulk didn't have to invest any pres - but neither did the marine, did he.
A skulk still takes several more bites than that, representing a much higher TTK. In skulk vs. marine, the W3 / A3 marine has a considerable advantage no matter what upgrades the skulk is using, and he didn't invest a single dime of pres for it, and there's no risk of losing anything except five seconds to spawn in.
Let me also point out that because W3 affects every marine, this means that carapace becomes a 'must have' on every lifeform. If the marine firepower / armor upgrades were spread out and aliens could identify and knew which marines had which, they could theoretically go without using carapace, because they know that their survivability vs. a totally vanilla LMG marine is basically unchanged from when before they had carapace.
My last point is going to be that attacking the marine base is way more work than it should be and that's mostly down to the fact that the endless stream of marines flooding in are capable of surviving several good hits and dishing out pretty decent damage before being killed. Removing this would considerably cut down on the stalemate that occurs in most games as the aliens struggle to break the marine base wide open - at least without doing it with 4 or more Onii at once.
You can't quantify any of that, and it's all irrelevant to the discussion at hand. A silenced skulk still takes x bullets to die and y bites to kill. Marines can also jump around like morons and they have ranged weapons, would you care to quantify those?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And this is comming from someone who regularly played against the top teams competitively in beta, so don't bother saying I don't know what I'm talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I'm actually Felix Baumgartner and I jumped from the edge of space. No really, I don't care, it's irrelevant to the discussion, and competition is as far as I'm concerned the least important aspect of the game. The reason I said that anyway was because you were so concerned that the poor marines wouldn't be able to use their vanilla weapons against higher lifeforms, without even pretending for a second that that exact aspect isn't one of the most frustrating aspects of playing late-game aliens. Either you don't have experience, or you're simply more interested in making sure the marine side is more capable and more fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Overall it's balanced<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But "balanced" does not equate to "fun", which is a point of frustration for many. As an example, Xenocide does more to punish the player using it than it does to reward him. The overused 50/50 win rate stat doesn't take into account that nobody wants to use Xenocide because it's weaker than in NS1 and earns less kills, it forces you to sit in the spawn queue, usually for longer than you spent NOT in the spawn queue, it eats up eggs, and the entire time you spend dead you aren't earning pres, which means you're doomed to be trapped as a skulk for just that much longer.
Balanced? Probably. Fun? God no.
Everyone here acknowledges that. However even indirectly attacking an A3 marine will usually result in death for players of similar skill level.
W0/A0 - Skulk can ambush and drop the marine, probably before he manages to fight back.
W1-2/A1-2 - Skulk can ambush the marine, but will have a brief struggle/fight. Carapace helps alot here to even out.
W3/A3 - Skulk can ambush, but not enough hits will land before marine reacts and fights back, melting the skulk. Dead skulk even though he approached correctly while the marine was an unobservant idiot.
Sorry but killing is often completely necessary to control areas and win games. Chomping power nodes and res towers is one thing, but a skulk needs to be able to ambush and fight marines. Its not like LMG marines lose the ability to damage structures late game, or some other bizarre twist in gameplay.
You freshly spawn as a marine, what do you do? You can go join the fight and kill ######. You can grab a gun from the ground and now you're just as well off as most the rest of your team. You immediately become a force multiplier by your simple presence.
You spawn as a skulk, what do you do. Parasite marines? That isn't a force multiplier, and given how many limitations parasite has earned, it's not even really worthwhile. It's easy to say "hit undefended targets", but that's a pretty generous handwave you're giving out there.
A single skulk takes an eternity to chew through an RT and a power node, a single marine can chop through anything short of a hive in just a few seconds.
Swarm in with higher lifeforms? Maybe, but that's just conveniently dismissing the issue, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Let's say a big bomb explodes and kills all the marines and all the skulks, and wipes out all their pres and tres. They all respawn. What now? It's skulks vs. marines again, just like the beginning of the game, except they have all their free upgrades. Which side is in a better, more powerful position?
Celerity, Silence, Camo all help in attacking, but that means A3 automatically soft-counters these by allowing marines to survive the initial attack which would otherwise be fairly fatal. Carapace and W3 cancel each other out, but no Carapace and W3 gives Marines a large advantage. Regeneration does nothing in combat (and really, neither does Celerity), and adrenaline doesn't help them do more damage or soak more hits.
W0/A0 - Skulk can ambush and drop the marine, probably before he manages to fight back.
W1-2/A1-2 - Skulk can ambush the marine, but will have a brief struggle/fight. Carapace helps alot here to even out.
W3/A3 - Skulk can ambush, but not enough hits will land before marine reacts and fights back, melting the skulk. Dead skulk even though he approached correctly while the marine was an unobservant idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on this, also dont forget that marines spawn faster than u and u have to spend time evolving ur upgrades and leap does funny amounts of damage 25 ish wile bite does 50-75 i use it rather to escape then fight(but it does not help much).
It would be great to scale aliens so heres an idea>
expl
skulk
if u have more then one hive u gain +10hp so up to 3 hives u gain+20hp thats it so u have 3 hives and a skulk with 120hp!
Also if u have 3+hives u could have carapace lvl2+ i would pay 10 resouce for this, so u would have 60 armour!
Would u win against a marine now?, maybe not but u could survive a lot more punishment and it would be more fun for all the people who spend a lot of time playing this unit!@