<!--quoteo(post=1997606:date=Oct 26 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Oct 26 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->What Shrike said could also work. And SixtyWattMan, the main reason aliens are dependent on that 2nd hive in the first place is because unlike marines they need it in order to scale upgrades/abilities. Tying more marine tech to CCs could potentially remove the problem altogether.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem with Aliens is that their most useful tech from the start of the game to the end of the game is tied to the second hive and it's a problem. The only thing Aliens can get with 1 hive is Celerity, Silence, or Carapace/Regen. Marines don't need the same problem so much as Aliens need their problem fixed. Marines can win the game with one chair, they don't NEED Exos or JPs.
The problem isn't the Marine tech tree, it's that GLs are too strong. Marines can hold a choke point with nade spam against any lifeform except an Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1997607:date=Oct 26 2012, 12:53 AM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Oct 26 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not? Why do Marines get special non-f4-ragequit treatment?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Neither team should have to F4 rage quit when they lose their second tech point. The only reason people think this should happen to Marines is because it happens to Aliens.
The problem with the GL is, that it is very cheap to spam with it. A solution can not be to decrease its overall damage output, or it will be better to use LMGs instead of GLs for sieging. Even decreasing the damage against player isn't the solution, because this weapon should also be valid against big targets. The problem is not, that a marine can kill an alien with the GL. The problem is, that it needs no skill right now. You just need to spam.
The spamming has to go. Not the damage. If you have enough skill to hit an alien with the GL, you should be rewarded. Also it is intuitive, that a GL makes tons of damage. You would grab it when facing an onos. Decreasing damage against players would be highly unintuitive.
I think the solution to the spamming could be, that grenades fizzle without doing any damage when a marine is in the explosion-radius. This won't fix the spamming into empty hallways, but as soon as the aliens are in the middle of the marines, the GL gets useless and you need to switch to pistol.
What irritates me is that you're rewarded for doing stuff that's typically very bad... For instance, running down a corridor as a Marine, you really want to have your teammates grenades exploding at your feet as much as possible because that protects you from getting killed (by the Aliens). Reasonable? No. It just looks and feels wrong to be running towards and among explosions. Another example: You're defending your base as a GL-wielding marine. Aliens are attacking your structures, so you carpet bomb your own structures with grenades and are awarded for it. Again, it looks and feels wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not? Why do Marines get special non-f4-ragequit treatment?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rather than taking marines to the alien level of falling back to 1 Tech Point = GG, we should bump up aliens to the marine level of still standing a chance (even against 2 CC marines) if they lose the second hive. Right now it's virtually impossible for aliens to come back from a hive loss, unless it can be immediately re-dropped, certainly later on in the game. (And while it SHOULD be hard, it shouldn't be impossible)
I've had a fair share of Marine/Alien wins this Build 224/225 to warrant it stable in comparison to Build 224.
However, this one asshat decided it be funny to block both entrances with armories into Marine Operation Base (on Mineshaft) after losing (and recycling) all territory and turtled up with 3 Exos while everyone recycled their weapons [GL] over and over.
The Kharaa could hardly push through to make a big enough dent, even with Umbra.
Aliens eventually won because someone actually <i>recycled</i> the armories, and the rest of the base because 3/4 of the Marine Team left cuz of boredom.
TL;DR: Exosuits + GL + Turtle = Impossibru push.
<!--quoteo(post=1997724:date=Oct 26 2012, 07:57 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 26 2012, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather than taking marines to the alien level of falling back to 1 Tech Point = GG, we should bump up aliens to the marine level of still standing a chance (even against 2 CC marines) if they lose the second hive. Right now it's virtually impossible for aliens to come back from a hive loss, unless it can be immediately re-dropped, certainly later on in the game. (And while it SHOULD be hard, it shouldn't be impossible)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye. I think the fact Kharaa can sustain 2nd Hive abilities (Leap, Bile Bomb, Blink) if they are still alive after the 2nd Hive is dead is something UWE attempted in hopes of trying to address the Kharaa not being able to make a come-back.
Definitely a ton of pressure on those remaining with 2nd Hive abilities, but pressure can be fun.
However, I still don't believe it's <u>enough</u> though.
Phase gates offer so much maneuverability, so much FLEXIBILITY for the Marines. All you need is one Marine to slip by, and one ninja-phase gate to potentially tip the game if they were on the receiving end of losing a 2nd CC.
<!--quoteo(post=1997693:date=Oct 26 2012, 03:01 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 26 2012, 03:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nerf one weapon. Or Buff 3 lifeforms.
I can see your logic (no I can't).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> mostly because if you had to choose between nerfing and buffing a thing, buffing is generally the better choice just because it increases the amount of viable strategies. the game needs more buffs than nerfs currently, because most alien tech paths / lifeforms are tremendously horrible. nerfing marines down to the level of trash that aliens are would only serve to make gameplay boring and linear.
that's more of a general comment, but I do agree that GLs should almost certainly do less (splash) damage to lifeforms, and that all lifeforms need to be able to handle turtling better.
I'd say the issue is less that GLs are good spam machines (exos are just as effective at locking down a couple of entrances), its more that aliens really <i>really</i> lack effective late game pushing power. An onos is great against small groups, but facing off against an entire team (especially in 8v8 or higher) and he has lost a significant portion of his health before he gets into the fight. Without a end-game pushing ability, any half decent turtle can add >5 minutes to a game that is for all intents and purposes over [aside from some ninja marine 'winning' the game by sneakily taking out all the upgrades]. Waiting for a onos zerg is boring for both sides, as if it fails the marines know that they will just be sat there for another 5 minutes waiting for the res ticks.
I know none of these will be it into 1.0 being a few days away, but what I would like to see:
Gorge Secondary Tier 2 (2 hive) - Web 20 TRes research cost, slows marine movement by 50% and disables sprint while in it [both marine and jp], fired like bile bomb similar energy cost and AoE, lasts 30 seconds, exos can stand on it to destroy it, flamethrowers can destroy it.
Fade either getting acid rocket back, or vortex being changed to range but with significantly higher energy cost.
Umbra - Reducing damage from splash effects (GLs, mines, siege) by an extra 50%.
Xenocide - Add an ability to 'activate' this whenever you want, with the side effect of damage increasing linearly based on how long you have charged it for (up to a max of 5 seconds or whatever), and a 33% increase in its maximum damage. So for example you double tap it to instantly detonate for maybe 25 damage. Or you cast it, then 2 seconds later detonate for 75 damage. Or cast it then after full 5 second duration you detonate for 150 damage. Maybe a frenzy effect while activated too, increasing movement speed by 25%.
If aliens lock down all the tech points besides the Marine start, there should be some sort of mechanism that basically forces a marine push, "or else". For example: with a hive in all points, have creep grow into marine start without requiring cysts, and eventually (after 5 minutes) the creep will cover buildings, damaging them and ending the game.
Having to push into a marine start with turtling exos and massive grenade spam is just silly, and a time waste, as it's going to be over anyway. Give them a bit of time to push back, but if nothing is happening, just have creep naturally overwhelm the marines. That way you're not fiddling with "end game" alien skills that aren't really required.
Link upgrades to the second command chair. Knock it as far back as 1-1. This would create a more balanced need for tech points and reduce the stupid crap we see. Has anyone had a game where the enemey team manages to keep 2+exos alive and makes armory walls and has gls as well. Its just stupid as ######.
Red DestinyJoin Date: 2012-08-11Member: 155428Members
Just a general suggestion similar to the '4-hives creates infestation that eventually wins the game', why not simply make it a second, primary objective?
For aliens: Kill all command chairs, or create 4 hives to force the marine fleet in orbit to nuke the place (5-minute timer).
For marines: Kill all hives, or if you fail to prevent 4 hives from being built, Fleet Command will deem the situation unsalvageable and nuke the area (5-minute timer).
Anecdotal experiences make me agree with the alien players, where GL-spam, with armory walls, and 2+ exos holding off a base rush for 10-extra-mins when the game is already over, with the only counter being mass-Gorges/Onos, is just a no-fun situation.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1998780:date=Oct 28 2012, 11:27 AM:name=Red Destiny)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Red Destiny @ Oct 28 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a general suggestion similar to the '4-hives creates infestation that eventually wins the game', why not simply make it a second, primary objective?
For aliens: Kill all command chairs, or create 4 hives to force the marine fleet in orbit to nuke the place (5-minute timer).
For marines: Kill all hives, or if you fail to prevent 4 hives from being built, Fleet Command will deem the situation unsalvageable and nuke the area (5-minute timer).
Anecdotal experiences make me agree with the alien players, where GL-spam, with armory walls, and 2+ exos holding off a base rush for 10-extra-mins when the game is already over, with the only counter being mass-Gorges/Onos, is just a no-fun situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So if Aliens win, they get nuked anyway? :P
<!--quoteo(post=1998786:date=Oct 28 2012, 10:36 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Oct 28 2012, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So if Aliens win, they get nuked anyway? :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like it will pass muster with the marine fanbois ;)
Link weapon and armour upgrades to Tech points, I have been saying it for a while but w3 a3 marines on 1 tech points silly.
It delays the end game needlessly, good shooting practice for marines is all it offers, oh and more being a fish in a barrel for aliens.
I fear that linking armor and weapon upgrades to CCs would simply take the Alien's problem of not being able to make a comeback after losing the second hive, and dump it on the marines as well. Maybe if you needed a 2nd chair for 3/3, that wouldn't be so bad.
I do like the idea of 4 hives = countdown to marines losing.
impossible, they have no crowed controll like marines - or weapons that shoot through walls so they don't even need to enter hive room to kill it...
lerk's spores/gas was the CC mechanic but its now cropdusting and pretty useless (maybe 30 damage to a marine before they walk to the left 2 meters) nothing like an instant exploding 4x grenade doing 100+ dmg to everything and wasting 30-50 res units in 1 or 2 explosions
I think the AoE on grenades is too large. A direct hit on the side of the Hive in Flight will reach out as far as the end of the railing on the closer set of steps on that circular thing, and a grenade on the ground will reach a skulk on the lower ends of the arch between the circular thing and summit (the skulk is safe - barely - at the peak of the arch). That seems too large to me, even though the damage is fairly small at the edge, given that most ceilings, at least in corridors, are lower than that. I didn't think to test it at the time, but this also means that hitting the upper half of the hive probably results in an explosion that can hit the floor <i>and</i> the ceiling. (That would certainly explain some of my deaths that have baffled me...)
<!--quoteo(post=1998653:date=Oct 28 2012, 09:17 AM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ Oct 28 2012, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If aliens lock down all the tech points besides the Marine start, there should be some sort of mechanism that basically forces a marine push, "or else". For example: with a hive in all points, have creep grow into marine start without requiring cysts, and eventually (after 5 minutes) the creep will cover buildings, damaging them and ending the game.
Having to push into a marine start with turtling exos and massive grenade spam is just silly, and a time waste, as it's going to be over anyway. Give them a bit of time to push back, but if nothing is happening, just have creep naturally overwhelm the marines. That way you're not fiddling with "end game" alien skills that aren't really required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is the damage GLs do to players, not the maximum AoE targets. A max AoE cap would solve nothing.
Fades were at no point a counter to GL, either. Blink was just ridiculously OP and made them the counter to everything when it rendered the player invulnerable.
(I am sorry to disagree with your post blue, but it is what it is)
<!--quoteo(post=1999581:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:01 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 29 2012, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is the damage GLs do to players, not the maximum AoE targets. A max AoE cap would solve nothing.
Fades were at no point a counter to GL, either. Blink was just ridiculously OP and made them the counter to everything when it rendered the player invulnerable.
(I am sorry to disagree with your post blue, but it is what it is)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't feel sorry, he also thought old (no energy cost spammed, huge AoE) Vortex was balanced :D
I think another point to make is how inconsistent the GL physics are sometimes.. the grenades like to do silly things pretty often.
The GL spam issue has become much worse with the release and the influx of new players. I've been in many games on many maps where the marines get pushed back into their spawn, and it takes 10-15+ minutes to dig them out. Onos and possibly fade are the only lifeforms that might survive a ocncentrated barrage, and you've got several marines sitting there with an armory pulling grenade after grenade out of the magic ammo box.
What makes it worse with new players is the difficulty of arranging a serious charge for a power node. Even with 4+ onii from eggs, trying to storm a base is frequently a problem simply because they don't have a good feel for how tough their lifeform is, and they don't know if they'll ever have a chance to play one again.
Staging down the amount of damage done by the GL, or even simply making it a 2CC weapon, will go a long way towards reducing this issue. As it is, I've been Khamming a lot of games in the last 24 hours, and seen a lot of very long end-of-game standoffs held only by grenade launchers.
Comments
The problem with Aliens is that their most useful tech from the start of the game to the end of the game is tied to the second hive and it's a problem. The only thing Aliens can get with 1 hive is Celerity, Silence, or Carapace/Regen. Marines don't need the same problem so much as Aliens need their problem fixed. Marines can win the game with one chair, they don't NEED Exos or JPs.
The problem isn't the Marine tech tree, it's that GLs are too strong. Marines can hold a choke point with nade spam against any lifeform except an Onos.
Neither team should have to F4 rage quit when they lose their second tech point. The only reason people think this should happen to Marines is because it happens to Aliens.
A solution can not be to decrease its overall damage output, or it will be better to use LMGs instead of GLs for sieging.
Even decreasing the damage against player isn't the solution, because this weapon should also be valid against big targets. The problem is not, that a marine can kill an alien with the GL. The problem is, that it needs no skill right now. You just need to spam.
The spamming has to go. Not the damage. If you have enough skill to hit an alien with the GL, you should be rewarded. Also it is intuitive, that a GL makes tons of damage. You would grab it when facing an onos. Decreasing damage against players would be highly unintuitive.
I think the solution to the spamming could be, that grenades fizzle without doing any damage when a marine is in the explosion-radius.
This won't fix the spamming into empty hallways, but as soon as the aliens are in the middle of the marines, the GL gets useless and you need to switch to pistol.
It also fixes the explosion-shield-spam.
<ul><li>Bring back fade acid rocket.</li><li>Bring back NS1 lerk gas.</li><li>Buff Xenocide considerably.</li></ul>
Problem solved. T3 aliens suddenly get more ranged abilities and counters for GL.
<ul><li>Bring back fade acid rocket.</li><li>Bring back NS1 lerk gas.</li><li>Buff Xenocide considerably.</li></ul>
Problem solved. T3 aliens suddenly get more ranged abilities and counters for GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nerf one weapon.
Or
Buff 3 lifeforms.
I can see your logic (no I can't).
Let's get over the 1.0 hurdle first.
Grenades next to friendlies should fizzle out.
Rather than taking marines to the alien level of falling back to 1 Tech Point = GG, we should bump up aliens to the marine level of still standing a chance (even against 2 CC marines) if they lose the second hive. Right now it's virtually impossible for aliens to come back from a hive loss, unless it can be immediately re-dropped, certainly later on in the game. (And while it SHOULD be hard, it shouldn't be impossible)
However, this one asshat decided it be funny to block both entrances with armories into Marine Operation Base (on Mineshaft) after losing (and recycling) all territory and turtled up with 3 Exos while everyone recycled their weapons [GL] over and over.
The Kharaa could hardly push through to make a big enough dent, even with Umbra.
Aliens eventually won because someone actually <i>recycled</i> the armories, and the rest of the base because 3/4 of the Marine Team left cuz of boredom.
TL;DR: Exosuits + GL + Turtle = Impossibru push.
<!--quoteo(post=1997724:date=Oct 26 2012, 07:57 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 26 2012, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather than taking marines to the alien level of falling back to 1 Tech Point = GG, we should bump up aliens to the marine level of still standing a chance (even against 2 CC marines) if they lose the second hive. Right now it's virtually impossible for aliens to come back from a hive loss, unless it can be immediately re-dropped, certainly later on in the game. (And while it SHOULD be hard, it shouldn't be impossible)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye. I think the fact Kharaa can sustain 2nd Hive abilities (Leap, Bile Bomb, Blink) if they are still alive after the 2nd Hive is dead is something UWE attempted in hopes of trying to address the Kharaa not being able to make a come-back.
Definitely a ton of pressure on those remaining with 2nd Hive abilities, but pressure can be fun.
However, I still don't believe it's <u>enough</u> though.
Phase gates offer so much maneuverability, so much FLEXIBILITY for the Marines. All you need is one Marine to slip by, and one ninja-phase gate to potentially tip the game if they were on the receiving end of losing a 2nd CC.
What do Kharaa get?
Or
Buff 3 lifeforms.
I can see your logic (no I can't).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mostly because if you had to choose between nerfing and buffing a thing, buffing is generally the better choice just because it increases the amount of viable strategies. the game needs more buffs than nerfs currently, because most alien tech paths / lifeforms are tremendously horrible. nerfing marines down to the level of trash that aliens are would only serve to make gameplay boring and linear.
that's more of a general comment, but I do agree that GLs should almost certainly do less (splash) damage to lifeforms, and that all lifeforms need to be able to handle turtling better.
I know none of these will be it into 1.0 being a few days away, but what I would like to see:
Gorge Secondary Tier 2 (2 hive) - Web 20 TRes research cost, slows marine movement by 50% and disables sprint while in it [both marine and jp], fired like bile bomb similar energy cost and AoE, lasts 30 seconds, exos can stand on it to destroy it, flamethrowers can destroy it.
Fade either getting acid rocket back, or vortex being changed to range but with significantly higher energy cost.
Umbra - Reducing damage from splash effects (GLs, mines, siege) by an extra 50%.
Xenocide - Add an ability to 'activate' this whenever you want, with the side effect of damage increasing linearly based on how long you have charged it for (up to a max of 5 seconds or whatever), and a 33% increase in its maximum damage. So for example you double tap it to instantly detonate for maybe 25 damage. Or you cast it, then 2 seconds later detonate for 75 damage. Or cast it then after full 5 second duration you detonate for 150 damage. Maybe a frenzy effect while activated too, increasing movement speed by 25%.
Having to push into a marine start with turtling exos and massive grenade spam is just silly, and a time waste, as it's going to be over anyway. Give them a bit of time to push back, but if nothing is happening, just have creep naturally overwhelm the marines. That way you're not fiddling with "end game" alien skills that aren't really required.
For aliens:
Kill all command chairs, or create 4 hives to force the marine fleet in orbit to nuke the place (5-minute timer).
For marines:
Kill all hives, or if you fail to prevent 4 hives from being built, Fleet Command will deem the situation unsalvageable and nuke the area (5-minute timer).
Anecdotal experiences make me agree with the alien players, where GL-spam, with armory walls, and 2+ exos holding off a base rush for 10-extra-mins when the game is already over, with the only counter being mass-Gorges/Onos, is just a no-fun situation.
For aliens:
Kill all command chairs, or create 4 hives to force the marine fleet in orbit to nuke the place (5-minute timer).
For marines:
Kill all hives, or if you fail to prevent 4 hives from being built, Fleet Command will deem the situation unsalvageable and nuke the area (5-minute timer).
Anecdotal experiences make me agree with the alien players, where GL-spam, with armory walls, and 2+ exos holding off a base rush for 10-extra-mins when the game is already over, with the only counter being mass-Gorges/Onos, is just a no-fun situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if Aliens win, they get nuked anyway? :P
Sounds like it will pass muster with the marine fanbois ;)
Link weapon and armour upgrades to Tech points, I have been saying it for a while but w3 a3 marines on 1 tech points silly.
It delays the end game needlessly, good shooting practice for marines is all it offers, oh and more being a fish in a barrel for aliens.
I do like the idea of 4 hives = countdown to marines losing.
lerk's spores/gas was the CC mechanic but its now cropdusting and pretty useless (maybe 30 damage to a marine before they walk to the left 2 meters) nothing like an instant exploding 4x grenade doing 100+ dmg to everything and wasting 30-50 res units in 1 or 2 explosions
Having to push into a marine start with turtling exos and massive grenade spam is just silly, and a time waste, as it's going to be over anyway. Give them a bit of time to push back, but if nothing is happening, just have creep naturally overwhelm the marines. That way you're not fiddling with "end game" alien skills that aren't really required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an awesome idea!!
How it works is: if an AOE ability hit more targets than a maximum number, the maximum (AOE) total damage would be split across all targets hit.
Perhaps NS2 could adopt such an approach, alongside a reduction in greande explosion radius.
Fades used to counter GLs due to their damage invulnerability during Blink. Unfortunately, that bonus was removed.
Genius.
Fades were at no point a counter to GL, either. Blink was just ridiculously OP and made them the counter to everything when it rendered the player invulnerable.
(I am sorry to disagree with your post blue, but it is what it is)
Fades were at no point a counter to GL, either. Blink was just ridiculously OP and made them the counter to everything when it rendered the player invulnerable.
(I am sorry to disagree with your post blue, but it is what it is)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't feel sorry, he also thought old (no energy cost spammed, huge AoE) Vortex was balanced :D
I think another point to make is how inconsistent the GL physics are sometimes.. the grenades like to do silly things pretty often.
What makes it worse with new players is the difficulty of arranging a serious charge for a power node. Even with 4+ onii from eggs, trying to storm a base is frequently a problem simply because they don't have a good feel for how tough their lifeform is, and they don't know if they'll ever have a chance to play one again.
Staging down the amount of damage done by the GL, or even simply making it a 2CC weapon, will go a long way towards reducing this issue. As it is, I've been Khamming a lot of games in the last 24 hours, and seen a lot of very long end-of-game standoffs held only by grenade launchers.
I'm seeing this alone cause huge stalemates in nub vs nub where aliens cannot finish marines with like 5 ip's.