<!--quoteo(post=1995006:date=Oct 23 2012, 05:16 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Oct 23 2012, 05:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good analysis, and i would agree.
Lerk spore damage is a further discussion step, but i honestly wouldn't mind lerk spore vision blocking so much if it didn't do such insane dps at the same time.
One of the problems I have with vision obscuring stuff is this:
When I am trying to shoot a gassing lerk I cannot see them and struggle due to the gas. When I fly a lerk and gas people shoot me quite easily...
I am assuming (might be wrong) that this might be due to people lowering their graphics settings and thus poison gas being less of a visual impedance...
My point being that <b>if</b> this is true I am being punished for playing on high graphics (same issue I have with atmospherics) and thus either the graphics settings should NOT effect visual effects (yeah that makes loads of sense) or they should be removed/toned down to the level of low graphics settings.
I am going to lower my graphics and test my theory now! :)
<!--quoteo(post=1995797:date=Oct 24 2012, 09:03 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Oct 24 2012, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the problems I have with vision obscuring stuff is this:
When I am trying to shoot a gassing lerk I cannot see them and struggle due to the gas. When I fly a lerk and gas people shoot me quite easily...
I am assuming (might be wrong) that this might be due to people lowering their graphics settings and thus poison gas being less of a visual impedance...
My point being that <b>if</b> this is true I am being punished for playing on high graphics (same issue I have with atmospherics) and thus either the graphics settings should NOT effect visual effects (yeah that makes loads of sense) or they should be removed/toned down to the level of low graphics settings.
I am going to lower my graphics and test my theory now! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can assure you lerk spore is just as obstructing on low as it is on high settings. The three major options that improve visibility when turned off are atmospherics, fog, and bloom.
Some people just have good aim and are able to snipe you down if you come in at a bad angle or happen to pass over their face/clip into their head where the bullets come out from.
<!--quoteo(post=1995817:date=Oct 23 2012, 03:46 PM:name=kast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kast @ Oct 23 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why can you see the hand and the gun? is the hand and gun in the cockpit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol
<!--quoteo(post=1995817:date=Oct 23 2012, 04:46 PM:name=kast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kast @ Oct 23 2012, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why can you see the hand and the gun? is the hand and gun in the cockpit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Close your eyes and try to eat a bowel of cereal. I know where my hands are when my eyes are closed. I just pretend is some neural sensor. They have those in the nanite variety right?
<!--quoteo(post=1995842:date=Oct 24 2012, 09:55 AM:name=SatanLovesYOu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SatanLovesYOu @ Oct 24 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Close your eyes and try to eat a <b>bowel</b> of cereal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Eww, gross.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I know like many, my opinion will be automatically ignored and thrown aside, even if it makes sense but I'll post it anyways.
This game is a RTS/FPS Hybrid.
Now in an RTS if you had a semi-stealth based race and it say, threw up the ink blot. You would, say to reduce damage, simply give the marines a accuracy debuff. Now as someone who enjoys playing both sides... I much prefer having my vision obcured slightly, to the alternative of them artifically decreasing my accuracy. Now the counter argument is to say they don't need either.
But we are not talking about Marines vs Marines here. Stealth and underhanded tactics are their thing. Pre-emptive counter, this is not NS1, the devs have decided that They are taking more of a guerrilla tactic approach in this one, and it makes sense,
So, based on their design in NS2 they *should* have a means of reducing chance to hit. Since it is more of a FPS then a RTS they thankfully didn't just slap a *evasion 10%* marker on skulks, instead they gave them leaping and wall running.
Same thing with spores, they are *designed* to be an accuracy reducer and DoT, It is designed only to kill the weak and those not willing to move out of its range. I think the current implementation fulfills that and it clearly isn't that powerfulll as even competitive teams pretty much ignore lerk. And this one is one of the worst arguments because Spore even has a hard counter in game (something the devs tried to avoid via the design doc) with flamethrower.
Bile Bombs effect is fairly small and doesn't last that long except in an Exo it is more obvious... Granted Bile is not really designed to be a major screen filler, but really assuming you don't overreact to it and let it distract you you still can see well enough to continue tracking enemies. As for spit... I believe it is designed as a last stance situation for gorge; doesn't do much damage, but obscures vision a bit to try to give the gorge just a little more time to survive.
Shade ink... come on... it is the *entire* point of the structure. Obfuscation is what it does... its a strategic move, one that can be countered with simply retreating and regrouping.
As per Flamethrower, I will agree it can be a bit of a visual issue, but to be fair, it is a balancing point to the weapon. fire is bright, and flamethrowers expel fire. Unless you want it to be super special future fire...
Jetpacks ... I really dont see the issue, it is fairly small effect and honestly, the side benefit is its a freaking jetpack... Heres a strategic idea.... don't shove your face up your teammates jetpack...
And for the record, I played NS1 for a long, long time. I loved it, it is why I decided to pre-order NS2... but the difference? I have Accepted that this game will be different... and on top of that, I prefer NS2 with the exception that Aliens in build 223 suck a bit. Not as much as everyone seems to be freaking out about, but enough so that marines have just a bit too much of an edge.
So, I love NS1, I actually *dont like strategy games*, I love NS2 (with exception of Skulks being a tad weak right now) , and I fully and wholeheartedly believe that to achieve their desire of RTS/FPS hybrid that the implementation of visually obfuscating elements was an intelligent, well though out maneuver to help add to the depth, strategy, and skill of the game.
And before someone jumps on me "But is it fun?" As a gameplay element... YES. As the alien. Just like as a marine it is thrilling to blow stuff up with the GL... it is silly and takes very little skill, but it is fun. Is that fun as an alien? @#$% no it isn't. But it makes sense in this style of game, and it is part of what separates aliens and marines further. Long range destruction vs Melee Guerrilla Warfare.
TL;DR, I disagree with the opinion that there are too many visually obfuscating effects.
<!--quoteo(post=1995098:date=Oct 23 2012, 06:03 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 23 2012, 06:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1995006:date=Oct 23 2012, 05:16 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Oct 23 2012, 05:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good analysis, and i would agree.
Lerk spore damage is a further discussion step, but i honestly wouldn't mind lerk spore vision blocking so much if it didn't do such insane dps at the same time. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. I can live with high damage or smokescreen, but not both.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1995893:date=Oct 24 2012, 03:22 AM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Oct 24 2012, 03:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good analysis, and i would agree.
Lerk spore damage is a further discussion step, but i honestly wouldn't mind lerk spore vision blocking so much if it didn't do such insane dps at the same time.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. I can live with high damage or smokescreen, but not both.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this.
I actually think the idea of Lerk spores being quite thick when he flies in is appropriate, as it obscures vision when trying to shoot the Lerk. But why not have it so that the initial drop is quite thick, but then loses opacity very quickly and hangs around in a very transparent state.
That sounds like a good proposition. Still makes cover for the Lerk and his buds, but still retains its gtfo qualities and so serves as area denial/Exo-welder killin' duty.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I just think the effects are overdone, and should be toned down a bit. I don't think they should be removed, I can see their benefit, but the current levels are crazy over the top.
Tone it down, all the effects in a good base/hive fight are too much and slow my pc to a crawl. Don't remove, tone down. It will make everyone happier :D
Pretty much my thoughts. And honestly, this thread is way overblowing this issue. The ONLY issues I have ever had where something had obscured my vision enough to be detrimental to my performance as a player is the ink cloud, which is what it's meant to do.
Sometimes I think some people would be happy if they replaced all the alien models with giant red targets that said SHOOT ME and glow in the dark.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>*NUKED*.</b> Please do not blindly re-quote massive picture sets; especially not without adding any commentary which would require the image to provide an example. -Talesin<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Umbra should be just visible enough that you know it's there, but it shouldn't obscure vision IMO. That's what spores do, there's no need for the overlap.
<!--quoteo(post=1995006:date=Oct 23 2012, 05:16 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Oct 23 2012, 05:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good analysis, and i would agree.
Lerk spore damage is a further discussion step, but i honestly wouldn't mind lerk spore vision blocking so much if it didn't do such insane dps at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Vision obscuring elements can be useful elements in FPS gameplay, but I think they really need to specifically and clearly defined as the primary role of that ability. In NS2, vision obscurring seems to have just been added as secondary features to a number of abilities and attacks. In particular, I'd only keep the vision obscurring of the ink cloud, spores (remove the damage), and cyst rupture, since restricting vision is the primary (or most useful) purpose of those abilities.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/91Nzo.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/nnkYS.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Not being able to see your health or energy as an onos is just a death sentence. Found it interesting that the goo effect doesn't cover the tres counter.
Vision obscuring is here to stay. It doesnt happen that often. And it doesnt take away from the skill.
If your a skilled player you know where the enemy is, and once you see just a glimpse of em you point and shoot.
Ever seen quake rail gun shots? 1 pixel of enemy and BOOM. thats skill.
The whole tactic of aliens is to bring chaos to the marines. Cut the lights, Blur their vision, Jump all over the place. If you position yourself well as marines you can counter this pretty well.
So instead of vision obscuring taking away skill. It requires a lot of skill to pull off & To counter.
<!--quoteo(post=1995873:date=Oct 24 2012, 02:21 AM:name=Ilseroth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ilseroth @ Oct 24 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TL;DR, I disagree with the opinion that there are too many visually obfuscating effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What this guy said.
I want smoke grenade and flashbang removed from Counter-Strike because it's obscuring my screen. Like, seriously, any, like, real competitive player agrees with me. Seriously.
Comments
Good analysis, and i would agree.
Lerk spore damage is a further discussion step, but i honestly wouldn't mind lerk spore vision blocking so much if it didn't do such insane dps at the same time.
When I am trying to shoot a gassing lerk I cannot see them and struggle due to the gas.
When I fly a lerk and gas people shoot me quite easily...
I am assuming (might be wrong) that this might be due to people lowering their
graphics settings and thus poison gas being less of a visual impedance...
My point being that <b>if</b> this is true I am being punished for playing on high
graphics (same issue I have with atmospherics) and thus either the graphics settings
should NOT effect visual effects (yeah that makes loads of sense) or they should be
removed/toned down to the level of low graphics settings.
I am going to lower my graphics and test my theory now! :)
When I am trying to shoot a gassing lerk I cannot see them and struggle due to the gas.
When I fly a lerk and gas people shoot me quite easily...
I am assuming (might be wrong) that this might be due to people lowering their
graphics settings and thus poison gas being less of a visual impedance...
My point being that <b>if</b> this is true I am being punished for playing on high
graphics (same issue I have with atmospherics) and thus either the graphics settings
should NOT effect visual effects (yeah that makes loads of sense) or they should be
removed/toned down to the level of low graphics settings.
I am going to lower my graphics and test my theory now! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can assure you lerk spore is just as obstructing on low as it is on high settings. The three major options that improve visibility when turned off are atmospherics, fog, and bloom.
Some people just have good aim and are able to snipe you down if you come in at a bad angle or happen to pass over their face/clip into their head where the bullets come out from.
why can you see the hand and the gun? is the hand and gun in the cockpit?
lol
Close your eyes and try to eat a bowel of cereal. I know where my hands are when my eyes are closed. I just pretend is some neural sensor. They have those in the nanite variety right?
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Eww, gross.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This game is a RTS/FPS Hybrid.
Now in an RTS if you had a semi-stealth based race and it say, threw up the ink blot. You would, say to reduce damage, simply give the marines a accuracy debuff. Now as someone who enjoys playing both sides... I much prefer having my vision obcured slightly, to the alternative of them artifically decreasing my accuracy. Now the counter argument is to say they don't need either.
But we are not talking about Marines vs Marines here. Stealth and underhanded tactics are their thing. Pre-emptive counter, this is not NS1, the devs have decided that They are taking more of a guerrilla tactic approach in this one, and it makes sense,
So, based on their design in NS2 they *should* have a means of reducing chance to hit. Since it is more of a FPS then a RTS they thankfully didn't just slap a *evasion 10%* marker on skulks, instead they gave them leaping and wall running.
Same thing with spores, they are *designed* to be an accuracy reducer and DoT, It is designed only to kill the weak and those not willing to move out of its range. I think the current implementation fulfills that and it clearly isn't that powerfulll as even competitive teams pretty much ignore lerk. And this one is one of the worst arguments because Spore even has a hard counter in game (something the devs tried to avoid via the design doc) with flamethrower.
Bile Bombs effect is fairly small and doesn't last that long except in an Exo it is more obvious... Granted Bile is not really designed to be a major screen filler, but really assuming you don't overreact to it and let it distract you you still can see well enough to continue tracking enemies. As for spit... I believe it is designed as a last stance situation for gorge; doesn't do much damage, but obscures vision a bit to try to give the gorge just a little more time to survive.
Shade ink... come on... it is the *entire* point of the structure. Obfuscation is what it does... its a strategic move, one that can be countered with simply retreating and regrouping.
As per Flamethrower, I will agree it can be a bit of a visual issue, but to be fair, it is a balancing point to the weapon. fire is bright, and flamethrowers expel fire. Unless you want it to be super special future fire...
Jetpacks ... I really dont see the issue, it is fairly small effect and honestly, the side benefit is its a freaking jetpack... Heres a strategic idea.... don't shove your face up your teammates jetpack...
And for the record, I played NS1 for a long, long time. I loved it, it is why I decided to pre-order NS2... but the difference? I have Accepted that this game will be different... and on top of that, I prefer NS2 with the exception that Aliens in build 223 suck a bit. Not as much as everyone seems to be freaking out about, but enough so that marines have just a bit too much of an edge.
So, I love NS1, I actually *dont like strategy games*, I love NS2 (with exception of Skulks being a tad weak right now) , and I fully and wholeheartedly believe that to achieve their desire of RTS/FPS hybrid that the implementation of visually obfuscating elements was an intelligent, well though out maneuver to help add to the depth, strategy, and skill of the game.
And before someone jumps on me "But is it fun?" As a gameplay element... YES. As the alien. Just like as a marine it is thrilling to blow stuff up with the GL... it is silly and takes very little skill, but it is fun. Is that fun as an alien? @#$% no it isn't. But it makes sense in this style of game, and it is part of what separates aliens and marines further. Long range destruction vs Melee Guerrilla Warfare.
TL;DR, I disagree with the opinion that there are too many visually obfuscating effects.
Good analysis, and i would agree.
Lerk spore damage is a further discussion step, but i honestly wouldn't mind lerk spore vision blocking so much if it didn't do such insane dps at the same time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. I can live with high damage or smokescreen, but not both.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
trying to explain what is happening when all vision is totally blocked is awkward.
e.g., exo in battle => you can't see anything, but awesome stuff is happening here
if effects are going to stack - be nice if they were prioritized so secondary effects had more transparency.
Lerk spore damage is a further discussion step, but i honestly wouldn't mind lerk spore vision blocking so much if it didn't do such insane dps at the same time.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Agreed. I can live with high damage or smokescreen, but not both.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this.
I actually think the idea of Lerk spores being quite thick when he flies in is appropriate, as it obscures vision when trying to shoot the Lerk. But why not have it so that the initial drop is quite thick, but then loses opacity very quickly and hangs around in a very transparent state.
Would solve the whole issue imo.
Tone it down, all the effects in a good base/hive fight are too much and slow my pc to a crawl. Don't remove, tone down. It will make everyone happier :D
Unsure why this was locked; keep it cordial and polite though, or it may end up back in the same boat.
Pretty much my thoughts. And honestly, this thread is way overblowing this issue. The ONLY issues I have ever had where something had obscured my vision enough to be detrimental to my performance as a player is the ink cloud, which is what it's meant to do.
Sometimes I think some people would be happy if they replaced all the alien models with giant red targets that said SHOOT ME and glow in the dark.
Lerk spore damage is a further discussion step, but i honestly wouldn't mind lerk spore vision blocking so much if it didn't do such insane dps at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Know what else does insane dps? Shotguns.
wut. shotguns don't vision block lol. I dont even..
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/nnkYS.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Not being able to see your health or energy as an onos is just a death sentence. Found it interesting that the goo effect doesn't cover the tres counter.
It doesnt happen that often. And it doesnt take away from the skill.
If your a skilled player you know where the enemy is, and once you see just a glimpse of em you point and shoot.
Ever seen quake rail gun shots? 1 pixel of enemy and BOOM. thats skill.
The whole tactic of aliens is to bring chaos to the marines. Cut the lights, Blur their vision, Jump all over the place. If you position yourself well as marines you can counter this pretty well.
So instead of vision obscuring taking away skill. It requires a lot of skill to pull off & To counter.
See above.
What this guy said.
I want smoke grenade and flashbang removed from Counter-Strike because it's obscuring my screen. Like, seriously, any, like, real competitive player agrees with me. Seriously.