OP Shotguns
Bad Mojo
Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67317Members
Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67317Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Are they really not going to be addressed?</div>I'm surprised at how few complaints there have been about shotguns in the past few weeks. They are mentioned frequently, always referring to how they one shot skulks/lerks etc. But when they are mentioned, it's always something else that is the focus of that conversation (usually probably in an "aliens suck" thread).
But we can't honestly be sitting here thinking that shotguns are fine the way they are. Some aspect of them needs to be nerfed. Obviously it's hard to imagine nailing a skulk at point blank and it surviving...if it was nerfed that much then it would become pretty much useless overall on the damage scale. But something needs to be done, seriously, to tone down their absurd effectiveness.
- Damage drop off at a distance
- Widen the spread
- Slightly reduce the number of pellets
- Reduce rate of fire
- Reduce the number of shots per clip to 4 or 5. It's bad enough that you can one shot a skulk with a weapon that is most effective at close range when the skulk has to get in close, but when you have 8 chances to hit (an amount of shots that will outlast any encounter with anything but an Onos of a Hive), you have a huge chance of landing that shot, whether it be luck or skill, before the skulk can land 3+ bites.
<b>Of course I'm not suggesting that all of these be applied. It's just a list of ways to nerf shotguns.</b>
But we can't honestly be sitting here thinking that shotguns are fine the way they are. Some aspect of them needs to be nerfed. Obviously it's hard to imagine nailing a skulk at point blank and it surviving...if it was nerfed that much then it would become pretty much useless overall on the damage scale. But something needs to be done, seriously, to tone down their absurd effectiveness.
- Damage drop off at a distance
- Widen the spread
- Slightly reduce the number of pellets
- Reduce rate of fire
- Reduce the number of shots per clip to 4 or 5. It's bad enough that you can one shot a skulk with a weapon that is most effective at close range when the skulk has to get in close, but when you have 8 chances to hit (an amount of shots that will outlast any encounter with anything but an Onos of a Hive), you have a huge chance of landing that shot, whether it be luck or skill, before the skulk can land 3+ bites.
<b>Of course I'm not suggesting that all of these be applied. It's just a list of ways to nerf shotguns.</b>
Comments
More news at 11.
The recycleability of shotguns just compounds their strength. I have been a lerk and killed a shotgunner at crevice, he respawns, runs back and gets there before its gone, complete bull######.
This defies logic in all forms of it's existence.
I personally feel that shotguns detract from the fun of the game, as an alien skulk, if a group working together can get nailed in one hit by another player, without an alien equivalent. The closest I can think of is a Fade, which is marginally tougher, but much harder to hit (but costs 50 res). A Fade doesn't have the benefit of leaving a corpse that another player can 'pick up', as well.
I would suggest decreasing weapons costs, but also making them unrecoverable if dropped via death, only. A system like this is already in place for jetpacks, and if it is applied to a marine killed in battle, it would 'even' the actual loss of death. Currently, marines just have a buddy 'cycle' the weapon for them, to ensure it does not disappear, whereas aliens do not have this advantage.
This can also lead to turtling situations where grenade launchers are endlessly recycled in a last-stand situation, whereas aliens huddling around a sieged hive will lose everything upon death.
Skulks are extremely maneuverable, you can keep a marine on his toes while getting bites in, and you are a small target, so using your speed and jumping to your advantage is very important.
Fighting multiple marines with shotguns is a different story, but you also shouldn't be bumrushing a group of marines as a lone skulk.
Btw shotguns used to do less damage to armored (or whatever) and weren't nearly as effective against Onoses. Felt like a sensible tradeoff, buuuuut I dunno.
Mathematically speaking, an LMG fires ~18 bullets per second for ~180 dps Where as a shotgun fires ~1 shot per second for ~170 dps at w0.
DPS from firing without reloading:
LMG - 500 damage over 2.8s for ~179 dps
Shotgun - 1360 damage over ~7s for ~194 dps
To unload a full clip and reload it:
LMG - ~5s for 500 damage or ~100 dps
Shotgun - ~15s for 1360 damage or ~91dps
Using these metrics, the shotgun is very similar in damage output. Now let's look at why the shotgun costs 20 pres.
Mechanics advantage for shotgun:
-reload mechanic
---interruptable, partial reloading is possible
-larger magazine means more damage output before down time (1360 damage vs 500 damage)
-easier to aim 1 shot every second instead of tracking constantly
-more upfront damage (ie possibility of 1 shot skulk kills)
Mechanics advantage for LMG:
-low spread
-range
-much faster reload speed
The shotgun's pres cost and strength is justified. You're effectively paying pres for the mechanical advantages which are dominated by a) ease of use and b) upfront damage but you're sacrificing c) range and d) consistency (somewhat-random spread vs low spread).
And as a parting thought, let's consider how long it takes to kill a skulk in the likely scenario that you don't score a 1-hit kill despite scoring a close range shot on a skulk due to spread and orientation of skulk.
Shotgun - 2 shots ~1 second
LMG - 9 shots ~0.5s
Mathematically, LMGs kill skulks at least as fast as shotguns when presented with likely in game scenarios. The benefit of shotguns is not in their damage, but the mechanics in which they can apply their damage. And, in fact, if shotguns could not 1 shot skulks in the way they currently do then they would be subpar compared to LMGs for every situation in the game.
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I believe you are drawing the conclusion here that because and LMG does equal damage, if you have really good aim then the shotguns not that much better then it but I don't think thats the case.
I am commenting from a pub perspective but how about the idea that when a skulk is at very close range it becomes proportionately harder to track constantly, thus the less tracking required aspect increases in value. As well, if your using it in a defensive role you can just phase around and hold all the spots, removing your disadvantage of lack of effectiveness at range. This has the added benefit that you stay close to armories so endlessly at full health, and even if you do die, somebody else can get your weapon. This is extremely easy to do even if your a mediocre shotgunner because a marine with a shotgun at full health only has to hit you ONCE. You have to hit them minimum 2 usually 3+ good times assuming theres no medpack spam.
The spread at close range is low enough to be nearly negligible. If you hit them full on, they die. The other disadvantage you mention is slower reload time, but really I think that at least breaks even due to large clip size and the partial reload option.
95%+ of the people playing this game aren't going to play anything but pubs there boss. If it's a common complaint then it's probably a pretty huge issue.
TBH I think it's fine other than the retarded range it has
I think they should be less effective against more armoured lifeforms in exchange for being able to one-shot skulks. I'm still not certain if a perfect shotgun shot at level zero weapons tech should be able to one-shot a carapace skulk. I'm leaning towards requiring weapons 1 there.
In particular, the Onos deserves to be less vulnerable to shotguns. Buying a shotgun should make you be less effective against <i>something</i>, and intuitively the Onos makes sense as a heavily armoured creature. The wide damage cone from a shotgun isn't really a drawback when you're trying to hit a barn-sized Onos.
@Bad Mojo
I'm not really in favour of any of the changes you've suggested because the shotgun is a very quantum weapon and gradual/minor changes can cause huge effects (like suddenly it doesn't do enough damage to one-shot a skulk). For your own sanity, first define the role of the shotgun. How should a shotgun vs x lifeform scenario play out in a one-on-one. That's a good starting point to consider what changes should be made, if any.
I am commenting from a pub perspective but how about the idea that when a skulk is at very close range it becomes proportionately harder to track constantly, thus the less tracking required aspect increases in value. As well, if your using it in a defensive role you can just phase around and hold all the spots, removing your disadvantage of lack of effectiveness at range. This has the added benefit that you stay close to armories so endlessly at full health, and even if you do die, somebody else can get your weapon. This is extremely easy to do even if your a mediocre shotgunner because a marine with a shotgun at full health only has to hit you ONCE. You have to hit them minimum 2 usually 3+ good times assuming theres no medpack spam.
The spread at close range is low enough to be nearly negligible. If you hit them full on, they die. The other disadvantage you mention is slower reload time, but really I think that at least breaks even due to large clip size and the partial reload option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1998241:date=Oct 27 2012, 01:07 AM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Oct 27 2012, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->95%+ of the people playing this game aren't going to play anything but pubs there boss. If it's a common complaint then it's probably a pretty huge issue.
TBH I think it's fine other than the retarded range it has<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't disagree with these posts. The problem is people see "OMG 1 SHOT" and don't actually consider the cost of a shotgun (20 pres should convery a huge advantage over the 0 pres an lmg costs) and don't seem to even understand why a shotgun is powerful. Most of the time people don't understand how big of an issue spread is and how bad it is due to the random nature it introduces. Increasing randomness in a skill-oriented shooter is never good for gameplay. Many of these complaints also completely fail to consider how powerful the LMG is. That was the point of my post. To give some more nuanced perspective and to try and demonstrate what that 20 pres is buying -- its not damage, it's mechanics. And anything to reduce the damage of the shotgun is going to nullify it entirely because it is already very similar in its damage output when compared to the free LMG.
I think they should be less effective against more armoured lifeforms in exchange for being able to one-shot skulks. I'm still not certain if a perfect shotgun shot at level zero weapons tech should be able to one-shot a carapace skulk. I'm leaning towards requiring weapons 1 there.
In particular, the Onos deserves to be less vulnerable to shotguns. Buying a shotgun should make you be less effective against <i>something</i>, and intuitively the Onos makes sense as a heavily armoured creature. The wide damage cone from a shotgun isn't really a drawback when you're trying to hit a barn-sized Onos.
@Bad Mojo
I'm not really in favour of any of the changes you've suggested because the shotgun is a very quantum weapon and gradual/minor changes can cause huge effects (like suddenly it doesn't do enough damage to one-shot a skulk). For your own sanity, first define the role of the shotgun. How should a shotgun vs x lifeform scenario play out in a one-on-one. That's a good starting point to consider what changes should be made, if any.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A return to light damage could be acceptable but it would require a complete rework and rebalance of the gun. You couldn't simply convert it from normal to light and call it a day. It would be terrible.
Probably not as terrible as some of the balance changes we've seen since b200 hehe. In fairness, sometimes raw and unchecked balance changes have been made to see just how much effect it has on other parts of the game. So make a change, test it for a week and use those results to inform what else needs to change because of that initial change. Kinda thing. I'd be fine with that approach if the game wasn't being released in 5 days.
I think your approach is entirely sensible given the release situation. There are a few basic things to check, like how many shots at 100% accuracy to take down each lifeform from full health, with and without cara. Model that against a medium damage and light damage shotgun, look at the extent of the changes and take it from there.
There needs to be a way for aliens to destroy dropped weapons, thats the only valid solution I see without making it unusuable or overshadowed by the lmg. Either that or reduce the time that it stays on the field so that at least the owner probably won't get back in time, unless its in the marine base.
Or you could try to balance it by buffing aliens by allowing the same thing as marines. As in, allow aliens to recuperate some of their lost pres when they die. That way dying as a higher lifeform isn't so binary anymore, it would be more forgiving and less frustrating.
MYTH BUSTED
There needs to be a way for aliens to destroy dropped weapons, thats the only valid solution I see without making it unusuable or overshadowed by the lmg. Either that or reduce the time that it stays on the field so that at least the owner probably won't get back in time, unless its in the marine base.
Or you could try to balance it by buffing aliens by allowing the same thing as marines. As in, allow aliens to recuperate some of their lost pres when they die. That way dying as a higher lifeform isn't so binary anymore, it would be more forgiving and less frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also think it is a problem with how long weapons can be recycled. I frequently run back to my own weapon which I don't think should be possible. It could also be that marines move too fast, though. ;)
Ideally you should have only one chance to one-shot a skulk, and if you miss it should be bad for you.
The one-shot range could be decreased a bit, but it's not really enough because most of the time you can hurt a skulk with a fist shot from far away, effectively increasing a lot the one-shot range.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, when defending a base there's no hesitation to spend pres on weapons. And sprint remains completely unnecessary given the marines' other mobility advantages over aliens. It should be the melee team that has this advantage, not the other way around.
Shotguns are mostly fine, but the damage they can deal at range is a bit much. I think pumping up the damage falloff at range is the best solution.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Ideally you should have only one chance to one-shot a skulk, and if you miss it should be bad for you.
The one-shot range could be decreased a bit, but it's not really enough because most of the time you can hurt a skulk with a fist shot from far away, effectively increasing a lot the one-shot range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the "ease" of one shotting skulks may potentially be a problem with players. Whether or not it is a reasonable problem, I don't know.
The problem is that players rarely differentiate between different weapons on marines. It happens most noticeably to me when I play Lerk. I'll be chomping and spiking normal marines, and then a shotgun marine will come in. I will spike him for a bit, and he will run away and I will think, I'll just go bite him once or twice. WHAT'S THE HARM? And then I die.
You don't send siege tanks against banelings, and you don't attack a shotgun marine from the front with anything lower than a fade. That's the way it is. You accept it or you die.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Disclaimer: I know nothing about starcraft 2 but assume that analogy to be accurate. Please send any complaints to someone who can do something about it.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Lerks can't die from one shot. Ever.