<!--quoteo(post=1998329:date=Oct 27 2012, 02:06 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 27 2012, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerks can't die from one shot. Ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks can die from 1 shot gun. Has happen to me many times so far during this patch. The last time was this morning I was barely peaking in vent and boom 1 shot shotgun killed me instant.
<!--quoteo(post=1998336:date=Oct 27 2012, 07:10 PM:name=Mango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mango @ Oct 27 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerks can die from 1 shot gun. Has happen to me many times so far during this patch. The last time was this morning I was barely peaking in vent and boom 1 shot shotgun killed me instant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Lerk has 125 health and 50 armour (75 with carapace). Of course, 1 armour = 2 health, so a base lerk has 225 effective hit points. With <b>level 3</b> weapon upgrades, a point-blank shotgun blast does 221 damage.
If you are at full health/armour, a single shotgun shell <b>cannot</b> kill your lerk. Damn close to it, though.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1998339:date=Oct 27 2012, 02:27 AM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Oct 27 2012, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Lerk has 125 health and 50 armour (75 with carapace). Of course, 1 armour = 2 health, so a base lerk has 225 effective hit points. With <b>level 3</b> weapon upgrades, a point-blank shotgun blast does 221 damage.
If you are at full health/armour, a single shotgun shell <b>cannot</b> kill your lerk. Damn close to it, though.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said I had carapace upgrade. Just normal Lerk form with no buffs at all. So, yes it is possible to get 1 shooted by 1 shotgun. The reason I didn't have carapace is because Comm's didn't have it yet, not my fault on my own. But, yes with all upgrades you can't 1 shot a lerk, but with no carapace it is a free for all right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1998340:date=Oct 27 2012, 07:30 PM:name=Mango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mango @ Oct 27 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said I had carapace upgrade. Just normal Lerk form with no buffs at all. So, yes it is possible to get 1 shooted by 1 shotgun. The reason I didn't have carapace is because Comm's didn't have it yet, not my fault on my own. But, yes with all upgrades you can't 1 shot a lerk, but with no carapace it is a free for all right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->You misunderstand. The example I mentioned is <b>without</b> carapace. If you do have carapace, it becomes 275 effective hit points. But yeah, if you take a shotgun to the face and have 4hp left, you're as good as dead anyway thanks to the ridiculous interp in this game. lol<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1998341:date=Oct 27 2012, 02:34 AM:name=Kallistrate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kallistrate @ Oct 27 2012, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->You misunderstand. The example I mentioned is <b>without</b> carapace. If you do have carapace, it becomes 275 effective hit points. But yeah, if you take a shotgun to the face and have 4hp left, you're as good as dead anyway thanks to the ridiculous interp in this game. lol<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well I did get 1 shooted by 1 shot gun kill. I don't know where you get 4hp left? I had full hp with no carapace and still died from 1 shot gun, I don't know why you don't believe me. It could be a bug but it does happen to Lerks.
<!--quoteo(post=1998343:date=Oct 27 2012, 07:37 PM:name=Mango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mango @ Oct 27 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well I did get 1 shooted by 1 shot gun kill. I don't know where you get 4hp left? I had full hp with no carapace and still died from 1 shot gun, I don't know why you don't believe me. It could be a bug but it does happen to Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->225 - 221 = 4
It's easy for new players to assume they got one-shotted, especially given the dire lack of audio feedback when you take a hit. In reality though, you were either missing 2 measly armour or got hit by something else right before the shotgun.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1998343:date=Oct 27 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Mango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mango @ Oct 27 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well I did get 1 shooted by 1 shot gun kill. I don't know where you get 4hp left? I had full hp with no carapace and still died from 1 shot gun, I don't know why you don't believe me. It could be a bug but it does happen to Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is clear why he doesn't believe you. The calculations show that you are missing a piece of your story (like not full hp or additional marine shooting at you) unless one of the following is true:
A) Lerk health has been unbeknownst to all nerfed. B) Shotgun damage has been buffed without anyone noticing. C) There is a bug that makes lerks die more easily.
Now, I for one do consider the most likely explanation here that your story is inaccurate, but I am open to evidence of any of the options A-C.
Please don't nerf shogun ! it's the only viable weapon late game agaisnt lifeforms. Maybe think about create a upgrade for lmg (with p.res) like fews more bullets for 10 p.res.
If HMG isnt added Shogun can't be nerfed... The problem being that due to GL and Flamethrower being "specific role" weapons the best weapon a marine has at the end of the game is the shotgun... However the shotgun is also available at 1:30 into the game...
Meaning the options I would suggest are make Shotgun late game tech or nerf it slightly and add HMG back...
<!--quoteo(post=1998343:date=Oct 27 2012, 11:37 AM:name=Mango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mango @ Oct 27 2012, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well I did get 1 shooted by 1 shot gun kill. I don't know where you get 4hp left? I had full hp with no carapace and still died from 1 shot gun, I don't know why you don't believe me. It could be a bug but it does happen to Lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even when confronted with undeniable proof, you are still in denial.
<!--quoteo(post=1998360:date=Oct 27 2012, 03:37 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Oct 27 2012, 03:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If HMG isnt added Shogun can't be nerfed... The problem being that due to GL and Flamethrower being "specific role" weapons the best weapon a marine has at the end of the game is the shotgun... However the shotgun is also available at 1:30 into the game...
Meaning the options I would suggest are make Shotgun late game tech or nerf it slightly and add HMG back...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And shotguns don't belong at an AA.
I've always voted on adding a Uranium Ammunition upgrade that can bought at the AA for LMGs at a per-life Pres cost, then the shotgun can be moved back to reasonable levels.
Marines DO need a good "killer" weapon for late game lifeforms, but a gun that can 2 shot a fade (and leave a lerk with < 1 bullet of hp left) is not the answer, especially given it takes 4 swipes to kill an A3 marine as fade, and they can dodge around and get those 2 shots easily with the effective range on that gun. This is a big reason i feel weak as fade.
PS. you can say they only doge because im bad, but it doesnt change the fact that if the marine dodges 1 of 4 hits he has time to get 2 shots off
<!--quoteo(post=1998482:date=Oct 27 2012, 06:29 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Oct 27 2012, 06:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And shotguns don't belong at an AA.
I've always voted on adding a Uranium Ammunition upgrade that can bought at the AA for LMGs at a per-life Pres cost, then the shotgun can be moved back to reasonable levels.
Marines DO need a good "killer" weapon for late game lifeforms, but a gun that can 2 shot a fade (and leave a lerk with < 1 bullet of hp left) is not the answer, especially given it takes 4 swipes to kill an A3 marine as fade, and they can dodge around and get those 2 shots easily with the effective range on that gun. This is a big reason i feel weak as fade.
PS. you can say they only doge because im bad, but it doesnt change the fact that if the marine dodges 1 of 4 hits he has time to get 2 shots off<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I find most unfair about shotguns, the same thing applies to skulks and lerks. You maybe are playing great and get off 2 perfect bites and he totally misses you (hits you tiny bit for lerk), then bam he gets one nice shot on you and your dead. Doesn't seem right at least for lerk and fade that you need to get off so many hits AFTER you close the range.
I would suggest that this is yet ANOTHER problem that could be partially addressed with the addition of focus.
The problem is that the shotgun is good vs all lifeforms, actually damages buildings quite heavily and is very cheap (20 pres). I feel like the problem is really one of range, its range is just too good
I'm pretty good with the 20 res shotgun as-is, were it not for the fact that his buddy is going to pick that thing up immediately after you kill him, making it a significantly less than 20 res shotgun once you average it out over a few users.
I feel like the problem is how insanely clumped the shotgun's damage is. Against LMG marines you can make intelligent decisions about when to disengage as the combat develops, but if you take one hit from a single SG marine as you close or skirmish, you have to choose between just turning the hell around or instantly dying with no chance to react. Skulks and Lerks who have been sneezed on don't even have the luxury of that choice; they just instantly die with no warning or decision available. Whether they live or die is entirely up to the Marine. Fighting against more than one Marine as Fade has a similar lack of option; you'll either be instantly two-shotted to death or you won't.
Marines can jump, dodge, fire, and run around their teammates against everything from Skulks to Oni, but the Kharaa have only one life form that can actually function in a shotgun environment without risking instant death. I agree that Shotguns need to be balanced with respect to LMGs, but maybe the idea of a shotgun just wasn't a great one in general. Making a weapon that excels at close range, against a team that (almost) exclusively needs close range to fight, is asking for balance issues.
I get that the teams are supposed to be asymmetrical, but the way it's falling is limiting options for lifeforms. Kharaa are the ones who are forced to suicide into armies of instant-death shotguns, but Marines are the ones who can recover their resources after death. The obvious answer to this is to just not fight Shotguns, to use the natural Kharaa mobility to hit extractors or their base whenever they push to foil them without risking the confrontation. Unfortunately, with the combination of Beacon and PGs that the Marines have available, their team is actually much more mobile; even if they aren't all yanked back to the Observatory, they can just phase to their base to fight off the attacking aliens, then phase back to continue the push.
As for solutions: in light of these issues, we can still find a niche for the Shotgun as a tradeoff in range for aim forgiveness. If you triple the firing rate and cut the damage in thirds, you get to keep your DPS, increase aim forgiveness, and give lifeforms the chance to juke or turn tail in the middle of a fight. Plus, the extreme magazine and ammo pool size makes more sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1998260:date=Oct 27 2012, 12:44 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Oct 27 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes let us nerf all the weapons so you can spend your pres on suckage, the answer is buffs not nerfs. No one likes being weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The answer is not always buffs.
Problem is not so much with the shotguns as it is with the ability to recycle dropped weapons perpetually. Get rid of this somehow, or give aliens the ability to destroy weapons on the ground. (People suggested gorge spit or for example infestation clearing them) Additionally, have all upgrades like for example carapace scale with number of hives.
<!--quoteo(post=1998535:date=Oct 27 2012, 12:31 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 27 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for solutions: in light of these issues, we can still find a niche for the Shotgun as a tradeoff in range for aim forgiveness. If you triple the firing rate and cut the damage in thirds, you get to keep your DPS, increase aim forgiveness, and give lifeforms the chance to juke or turn tail in the middle of a fight. Plus, the extreme magazine and ammo pool size makes more sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like it would have the potential to work better than the current implementation, at least in terms of giving the recipient of the shots a chance to react. I personally think of the shotgun as a weapon that provides an alternative playstyle in comparison to a rifle, rather than it being a huge improvement over the rifle. Of course since it costs res it has to offer some benefit, and also if it were the same or only slightly better in effectiveness, that would leave a gap in non-exo marines late game arsenal vs lifeforms, as Benson and Psymple alluded to. There would have to be another weapon added to fill that role, or the scaling of weapon upgrades would need to be reworked.
Side note to that: I hope that we will eventually see an alternative to the pistol. I imagine that we will at some point down the road. Woul dbe nice to be able to swap it for some sort of utility item or self buff type item. That's a discussion for another time though
Finally, one of the resonating themes in the marine>alien discussion is the imbalance in pres spending. The fact that the purchased marine weapons can all be reused multiple times and lifeforms are lost for good - I find it especially troublesome playing as a lerk because I have to fear getting one shotted by a SG marine, osing my 30 res and being forced to play skulk for the next 5+ minutes. But if I kill him, he drops the gun and the next guy in line picks it up, so I got a kill but the SG is still being used against my team, and that didn't really affect the game much in favor of aliens. <b>My solution would be to implement a reward system for evolving to different lifeforms; whether based on kills or time spent as that lifeform, if you die, evolving back to that same lifeform will be cheaper the next time.</b>
First off, the shotgun is not 'OP'. We only have 2 choices for offensive weapons, LMG and Shotty. Flamethower and GLs are support weapons mostly.
The real problem is that shotty is the ONLY viable thing, LMG used to be ok few builds ago, but now it's just crap, as Fade and ONOS hp/armor was considerably increased, but LMG dmg wasn't. So the only choice against the better lifeforms is shotty, which MUST be better then LMG in order to give marines a chance.
Solution would be (re-)introduction of HMG, which is a straight upgrade to LMG for some pres, and adjusting the shotty to do well at close range, not by using spread, but by using falloff (and reducing the spread). Reliable weapons are always better then random weapons.
Also somehing else that needs addressing ASAP is the super-crappy hitregistrtion and very bad lagcompensation that resulted from the networking/performance changes. It hurts marine gameplay A LOT. It's like playing source in a 200ms server, except that you get this problem on 50-60ms servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1998204:date=Oct 27 2012, 05:50 AM:name=Bad Mojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad Mojo @ Oct 27 2012, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Damage drop off at a distance - Widen the spread - Slightly reduce the number of pellets - Reduce rate of fire - Reduce the number of shots per clip to 4 or 5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I've been suggesting that for builds now, but along with much<i> tighter </i>spread. 2. Spread is already retarded as it is. Combined with terrible hitreg in this build it becomes even worse. Spread is pretty much the opposite of skillful play, as it rewards luck and not aim (even though we have a increased amount of pellets in the center, it's still annoying). 3. Nerf the damage (i.e pellets)? Then you also have to nerf all alien lifeforms shotgun is the only counter against. (lerk, fade, onos) 4. It's already very slow to fire and puts you at an disadvantage if you miss 5. With the current hitreg, that's even worse :P
Haha I never spend p.res on shotguns yet I usually get em. If I see someone grab a shottie I just follow him around till he dies then I grab it. Yeah I'm that guy.
Thing is however people are underestimating the dps machine that is the LMG. Haven't you ever noticed how a skulk basically insta-dies if a marine catches him and shoots at him if he's standing still chewing an RT? I NEVER stand still while biting a structure. LMG does the damage I want but hey if someone drops a shotgun good for me!
Honestly marine weapons should only be able to be recycled once. That way you can actually work out their net cost and value. Right now that net value could be 'infinite'. Or it could be 20 p.res. This would also add an element of strategy for the aliens where they can actually work on sniping the user of certain weapons to get the weapons off the field eventually. It would also force teamwork upon the marines to make absolute sure in comp matches that that weapon is recycled that one time. That extra use on that weapon could make or break a competitive game IF it were actually balanced around that.
Right now it's not really balanced around anything at all. o.O
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012
yehawmcgraw came up with <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121222" target="_blank">Gorge Weapon Devour</a> a pretty awesome idea to alleviate marine weapon inflation.
Check it out.
But personally, I think dropped weapons should be picked up with an empty clip and ammo pool, forcing marines to find ammo then reload, making it so killing a marine with a weapon, then another picking it up straight afterwards isn't as effective.
If not nerfing marines weapon drop somehow, then aliens should be able to have a resource inflation buff themselves to alleviate... Problem is you can't exactly pick up a life form again, there has to be something aliens could do. <b> Maybe aliens could cannibalize the previous corpse for half the resources back?</b> I was thinking more of some sort of generic<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> (not gory)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> shiny body parts / giblets that you could eat again to regain some res, first come first serve sort of deal?
Kinda like weapon drops; but it would give purely player resources back instead of the lifeform, and not the whole deal. This might give a better incentive for aliens to group and fight together, more chance of recycling resources, similar to marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But personally, I think dropped weapons should be picked up with an empty clip and ammo pool, forcing marines to find ammo then reload, making it so killing a marine with a weapon, then another picking it up straight afterwards isn't as effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1998637:date=Oct 27 2012, 03:47 PM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 27 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kinda like weapon drops; but it would give purely player resources back instead of the lifeform, and not the whole deal. This might give a better incentive for aliens to group and fight together, more chance of recycling resources, similar to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More likely would give more incentive for aliens to bait teammates for res. Or even intentional res feeding to one player for quick higher lifeforms.
I don't think UWE will ever implement anything into the game that awards players pure resources, period.
But what you were suggesting in general was the exact same thing I said at the end of my last post, and I think a form of partial recycling for lifeforms is a possibility. It would NOT be something that could be shared among teammates. When you go Fade, if you die, Fade and only Fade will be cheaper for YOU when you respawn. This allows for a partial "recycle" effect on lifeforms without having to give the player res that could be exploited by using it for other purposes.
<!--quoteo(post=1998637:date=Oct 27 2012, 02:47 PM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 27 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But personally, I think dropped weapons should be picked up with an empty clip and ammo pool, forcing marines to find ammo then reload, making it so killing a marine with a weapon, then another picking it up straight afterwards isn't as effective.
If not nerfing marines weapon drop somehow, then aliens should be able to have a resource inflation buff themselves to alleviate... Problem is you can't exactly pick up a life form again, there has to be something aliens could do. <b> Maybe aliens could cannibalize the previous corpse for half the resources back?</b> I was thinking more of some sort of generic<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> (not gory)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> shiny body parts / giblets that you could eat again to regain some res, first come first serve sort of deal?
Kinda like weapon drops; but it would give purely player resources back instead of the lifeform, and not the whole deal. This might give a better incentive for aliens to group and fight together, more chance of recycling resources, similar to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This actually sounds good to me, fits thematically and would definitely enhance the desire to actually travel as a pack. There is no denying that the ability to pick up dropped weapons cheapens the cost of the weapon each time it's picked up. A scenario I would point out is a marine who buys a grenade launcher for 25 p.res and phases to a forward base. He fires off a few rounds, and is killed. He respawns and decides he wants to live a bit longer, purchases a jetpack for 10 res, then phases back through and picks up his grenade launcher. This enables a marine to fully retain the cost of that 25 p.res weapon, which is the most expensive portion of his new 'lifeform', while also upgrading his mobility and survival with a cheaper add on. (Note he still gains the default bonus of weapons and armor 1-3) It allows you to spend your p.res better and smarter than an alien in a resource-centric game. Hmm.
When I play marines, I use this strategy pretty often. I mean, what's 25 p.res over the course of two or three lives with a grenade launcher? This is also the primary reason why I hardly ever spend p.res as an alien but always do as a marine. I save for Onos most of the time, and might spawn as a lerk or gorge for base defense if the situation calls for it. However, if your hive is under assault by even two marines with grenade launchers it's game over unless you have a higher lifeform somewhere else on the map who can reach the hive in time. (This assumes your grenade folks are alternating their fire, and not complete retards of course.)
There is always the chance for an excellent, or lucky, alien to catch them unawares and kill one or both of them. But without the ability to gestate into a higher lifeform in a timely manner the marines will always spawn camp the hell out of your hive. (It's also bad to rely on one elite or lucky player to make that big of a difference in a public game mind you.) If you have two hives, the first one is dead before you can reach it and you probably just lost all your higher lifeforms during the first assault. (Surprise, the marines will be in your second hive before you're done gestating, even if you have the res to change forms again. Even then, you'll probably be limited to a lerk. Good luck against those GL's little flyboy!)
Weapon dropping should stay as is. Possibly the duration could be tinkered with but not much. This adds several dynamics to the game. If balance changes need to be made, there are plenty of other options to consider.
<!--quoteo(post=1998695:date=Oct 27 2012, 02:55 PM:name=Scubbo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scubbo @ Oct 27 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->all thats needed to fix the OP'ness is allow the gun to be melted...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rines get to one shot skulks, so aliens should have a life form that can one shot rines..... Bring back onos devour!! I want to eat that shotgun rine and remind him that the food chain isn't what he learned in elementary school.
<!--quoteo(post=1998230:date=Oct 27 2012, 05:32 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 27 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a common complaint among new players. Most of them don't truly understand the value of 20 pres in a close game because they've only played pubs. They also haven't rigorously compared the two weapons
Mathematically speaking, an LMG fires ~18 bullets per second for ~180 dps Where as a shotgun fires ~1 shot per second for ~170 dps at w0.
DPS from firing without reloading: LMG - 500 damage over 2.8s for ~179 dps Shotgun - 1360 damage over ~7s for ~194 dps
To unload a full clip and reload it: LMG - ~5s for 500 damage or ~100 dps Shotgun - ~15s for 1360 damage or ~91dps
Using these metrics, the shotgun is very similar in damage output. Now let's look at why the shotgun costs 20 pres.
Mechanics advantage for shotgun: -reload mechanic ---interruptable, partial reloading is possible -larger magazine means more damage output before down time (1360 damage vs 500 damage) -easier to aim 1 shot every second instead of tracking constantly -more upfront damage (ie possibility of 1 shot skulk kills)
The shotgun's pres cost and strength is justified. You're effectively paying pres for the mechanical advantages which are dominated by a) ease of use and b) upfront damage but you're sacrificing c) range and d) consistency (somewhat-random spread vs low spread).
And as a parting thought, let's consider how long it takes to kill a skulk in the likely scenario that you don't score a 1-hit kill despite scoring a close range shot on a skulk due to spread and orientation of skulk. Shotgun - 2 shots ~1 second LMG - 9 shots ~0.5s
Mathematically, LMGs kill skulks at least as fast as shotguns when presented with likely in game scenarios. The benefit of shotguns is not in their damage, but the mechanics in which they can apply their damage. And, in fact, if shotguns could not 1 shot skulks in the way they currently do then they would be subpar compared to LMGs for every situation in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty comprehensive. I would add that the dps for a SG is effectively always a second ahead though because it starts at 0secs whereas the lmg takes 1sec to hit 180damage (whereupon the sg leaps ahead again).
More generally, I still think it's going to be ridiculous when a good team of shotgunners emerges with solid performance. The fact that you're going to have a team of capable marines one-shotting everything with zero effect on the macro-economy is going to be insane.
Comments
Lerks can die from 1 shot gun. Has happen to me many times so far during this patch. The last time was this morning I was barely peaking in vent and boom 1 shot shotgun killed me instant.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Lerk has 125 health and 50 armour (75 with carapace). Of course, 1 armour = 2 health, so a base lerk has 225 effective hit points. With <b>level 3</b> weapon upgrades, a point-blank shotgun blast does 221 damage.
If you are at full health/armour, a single shotgun shell <b>cannot</b> kill your lerk. Damn close to it, though.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If you are at full health/armour, a single shotgun shell <b>cannot</b> kill your lerk. Damn close to it, though.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said I had carapace upgrade. Just normal Lerk form with no buffs at all. So, yes it is possible to get 1 shooted by 1 shotgun. The reason I didn't have carapace is because Comm's didn't have it yet, not my fault on my own. But, yes with all upgrades you can't 1 shot a lerk, but with no carapace it is a free for all right now.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->You misunderstand. The example I mentioned is <b>without</b> carapace. If you do have carapace, it becomes 275 effective hit points. But yeah, if you take a shotgun to the face and have 4hp left, you're as good as dead anyway thanks to the ridiculous interp in this game. lol<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
well I did get 1 shooted by 1 shot gun kill. I don't know where you get 4hp left? I had full hp with no carapace and still died from 1 shot gun, I don't know why you don't believe me. It could be a bug but it does happen to Lerks.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->225 - 221 = 4
It's easy for new players to assume they got one-shotted, especially given the dire lack of audio feedback when you take a hit. In reality though, you were either missing 2 measly armour or got hit by something else right before the shotgun.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It is clear why he doesn't believe you. The calculations show that you are missing a piece of your story (like not full hp or additional marine shooting at you) unless one of the following is true:
A) Lerk health has been unbeknownst to all nerfed.
B) Shotgun damage has been buffed without anyone noticing.
C) There is a bug that makes lerks die more easily.
Now, I for one do consider the most likely explanation here that your story is inaccurate, but I am open to evidence of any of the options A-C.
The problem being that due to GL and Flamethrower being "specific role" weapons
the best weapon a marine has at the end of the game is the shotgun... However the
shotgun is also available at 1:30 into the game...
Meaning the options I would suggest are make Shotgun late game tech or nerf it slightly
and add HMG back...
Even when confronted with undeniable proof, you are still in denial.
Astounding.
The problem being that due to GL and Flamethrower being "specific role" weapons
the best weapon a marine has at the end of the game is the shotgun... However the
shotgun is also available at 1:30 into the game...
Meaning the options I would suggest are make Shotgun late game tech or nerf it slightly
and add HMG back...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And shotguns don't belong at an AA.
I've always voted on adding a Uranium Ammunition upgrade that can bought at the AA for LMGs at a per-life Pres cost, then the shotgun can be moved back to reasonable levels.
Marines DO need a good "killer" weapon for late game lifeforms, but a gun that can 2 shot a fade (and leave a lerk with < 1 bullet of hp left) is not the answer, especially given it takes 4 swipes to kill an A3 marine as fade, and they can dodge around and get those 2 shots easily with the effective range on that gun. This is a big reason i feel weak as fade.
PS. you can say they only doge because im bad, but it doesnt change the fact that if the marine dodges 1 of 4 hits he has time to get 2 shots off
I've always voted on adding a Uranium Ammunition upgrade that can bought at the AA for LMGs at a per-life Pres cost, then the shotgun can be moved back to reasonable levels.
Marines DO need a good "killer" weapon for late game lifeforms, but a gun that can 2 shot a fade (and leave a lerk with < 1 bullet of hp left) is not the answer, especially given it takes 4 swipes to kill an A3 marine as fade, and they can dodge around and get those 2 shots easily with the effective range on that gun. This is a big reason i feel weak as fade.
PS. you can say they only doge because im bad, but it doesnt change the fact that if the marine dodges 1 of 4 hits he has time to get 2 shots off<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I find most unfair about shotguns, the same thing applies to skulks and lerks. You maybe are playing great and get off 2 perfect bites and he totally misses you (hits you tiny bit for lerk), then bam he gets one nice shot on you and your dead. Doesn't seem right at least for lerk and fade that you need to get off so many hits AFTER you close the range.
I would suggest that this is yet ANOTHER problem that could be partially addressed with the addition of focus.
Marines can jump, dodge, fire, and run around their teammates against everything from Skulks to Oni, but the Kharaa have only one life form that can actually function in a shotgun environment without risking instant death. I agree that Shotguns need to be balanced with respect to LMGs, but maybe the idea of a shotgun just wasn't a great one in general. Making a weapon that excels at close range, against a team that (almost) exclusively needs close range to fight, is asking for balance issues.
I get that the teams are supposed to be asymmetrical, but the way it's falling is limiting options for lifeforms. Kharaa are the ones who are forced to suicide into armies of instant-death shotguns, but Marines are the ones who can recover their resources after death. The obvious answer to this is to just not fight Shotguns, to use the natural Kharaa mobility to hit extractors or their base whenever they push to foil them without risking the confrontation. Unfortunately, with the combination of Beacon and PGs that the Marines have available, their team is actually much more mobile; even if they aren't all yanked back to the Observatory, they can just phase to their base to fight off the attacking aliens, then phase back to continue the push.
As for solutions: in light of these issues, we can still find a niche for the Shotgun as a tradeoff in range for aim forgiveness. If you triple the firing rate and cut the damage in thirds, you get to keep your DPS, increase aim forgiveness, and give lifeforms the chance to juke or turn tail in the middle of a fight. Plus, the extreme magazine and ammo pool size makes more sense.
The answer is not always buffs.
This sounds like it would have the potential to work better than the current implementation, at least in terms of giving the recipient of the shots a chance to react. I personally think of the shotgun as a weapon that provides an alternative playstyle in comparison to a rifle, rather than it being a huge improvement over the rifle. Of course since it costs res it has to offer some benefit, and also if it were the same or only slightly better in effectiveness, that would leave a gap in non-exo marines late game arsenal vs lifeforms, as Benson and Psymple alluded to. There would have to be another weapon added to fill that role, or the scaling of weapon upgrades would need to be reworked.
Side note to that: I hope that we will eventually see an alternative to the pistol. I imagine that we will at some point down the road. Woul dbe nice to be able to swap it for some sort of utility item or self buff type item. That's a discussion for another time though
Finally, one of the resonating themes in the marine>alien discussion is the imbalance in pres spending. The fact that the purchased marine weapons can all be reused multiple times and lifeforms are lost for good - I find it especially troublesome playing as a lerk because I have to fear getting one shotted by a SG marine, osing my 30 res and being forced to play skulk for the next 5+ minutes. But if I kill him, he drops the gun and the next guy in line picks it up, so I got a kill but the SG is still being used against my team, and that didn't really affect the game much in favor of aliens. <b>My solution would be to implement a reward system for evolving to different lifeforms; whether based on kills or time spent as that lifeform, if you die, evolving back to that same lifeform will be cheaper the next time.</b>
The real problem is that shotty is the ONLY viable thing, LMG used to be ok few builds ago, but now it's just crap, as Fade and ONOS hp/armor was considerably increased, but LMG dmg wasn't. So the only choice against the better lifeforms is shotty, which MUST be better then LMG in order to give marines a chance.
Solution would be (re-)introduction of HMG, which is a straight upgrade to LMG for some pres, and adjusting the shotty to do well at close range, not by using spread, but by using falloff (and reducing the spread). Reliable weapons are always better then random weapons.
Also somehing else that needs addressing ASAP is the super-crappy hitregistrtion and very bad lagcompensation that resulted from the networking/performance changes. It hurts marine gameplay A LOT. It's like playing source in a 200ms server, except that you get this problem on 50-60ms servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1998204:date=Oct 27 2012, 05:50 AM:name=Bad Mojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad Mojo @ Oct 27 2012, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Damage drop off at a distance
- Widen the spread
- Slightly reduce the number of pellets
- Reduce rate of fire
- Reduce the number of shots per clip to 4 or 5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I've been suggesting that for builds now, but along with much<i> tighter </i>spread.
2. Spread is already retarded as it is. Combined with terrible hitreg in this build it becomes even worse. Spread is pretty much the opposite of skillful play, as it rewards luck and not aim (even though we have a increased amount of pellets in the center, it's still annoying).
3. Nerf the damage (i.e pellets)? Then you also have to nerf all alien lifeforms shotgun is the only counter against. (lerk, fade, onos)
4. It's already very slow to fire and puts you at an disadvantage if you miss
5. With the current hitreg, that's even worse :P
Thing is however people are underestimating the dps machine that is the LMG. Haven't you ever noticed how a skulk basically insta-dies if a marine catches him and shoots at him if he's standing still chewing an RT? I NEVER stand still while biting a structure. LMG does the damage I want but hey if someone drops a shotgun good for me!
Honestly marine weapons should only be able to be recycled once. That way you can actually work out their net cost and value. Right now that net value could be 'infinite'. Or it could be 20 p.res. This would also add an element of strategy for the aliens where they can actually work on sniping the user of certain weapons to get the weapons off the field eventually. It would also force teamwork upon the marines to make absolute sure in comp matches that that weapon is recycled that one time. That extra use on that weapon could make or break a competitive game IF it were actually balanced around that.
Right now it's not really balanced around anything at all. o.O
Check it out.
But personally, I think dropped weapons should be picked up with an empty clip and ammo pool, forcing marines to find ammo then reload, making it so killing a marine with a weapon, then another picking it up straight afterwards isn't as effective.
If not nerfing marines weapon drop somehow, then aliens should be able to have a resource inflation buff themselves to alleviate...
Problem is you can't exactly pick up a life form again, there has to be something aliens could do.
<b>
Maybe aliens could cannibalize the previous corpse for half the resources back?</b>
I was thinking more of some sort of generic<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> (not gory)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> shiny body parts / giblets that you could eat again to regain some res, first come first serve sort of deal?
Kinda like weapon drops; but it would give purely player resources back instead of the lifeform, and not the whole deal.
This might give a better incentive for aliens to group and fight together, more chance of recycling resources, similar to marines.
Love this idea
This might give a better incentive for aliens to group and fight together, more chance of recycling resources, similar to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More likely would give more incentive for aliens to bait teammates for res. Or even intentional res feeding to one player for quick higher lifeforms.
I don't think UWE will ever implement anything into the game that awards players pure resources, period.
But what you were suggesting in general was the exact same thing I said at the end of my last post, and I think a form of partial recycling for lifeforms is a possibility. It would NOT be something that could be shared among teammates. When you go Fade, if you die, Fade and only Fade will be cheaper for YOU when you respawn. This allows for a partial "recycle" effect on lifeforms without having to give the player res that could be exploited by using it for other purposes.
If not nerfing marines weapon drop somehow, then aliens should be able to have a resource inflation buff themselves to alleviate...
Problem is you can't exactly pick up a life form again, there has to be something aliens could do.
<b>
Maybe aliens could cannibalize the previous corpse for half the resources back?</b>
I was thinking more of some sort of generic<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> (not gory)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> shiny body parts / giblets that you could eat again to regain some res, first come first serve sort of deal?
Kinda like weapon drops; but it would give purely player resources back instead of the lifeform, and not the whole deal.
This might give a better incentive for aliens to group and fight together, more chance of recycling resources, similar to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This actually sounds good to me, fits thematically and would definitely enhance the desire to actually travel as a pack. There is no denying that the ability to pick up dropped weapons cheapens the cost of the weapon each time it's picked up. A scenario I would point out is a marine who buys a grenade launcher for 25 p.res and phases to a forward base. He fires off a few rounds, and is killed. He respawns and decides he wants to live a bit longer, purchases a jetpack for 10 res, then phases back through and picks up his grenade launcher. This enables a marine to fully retain the cost of that 25 p.res weapon, which is the most expensive portion of his new 'lifeform', while also upgrading his mobility and survival with a cheaper add on. (Note he still gains the default bonus of weapons and armor 1-3) It allows you to spend your p.res better and smarter than an alien in a resource-centric game. Hmm.
When I play marines, I use this strategy pretty often. I mean, what's 25 p.res over the course of two or three lives with a grenade launcher? This is also the primary reason why I hardly ever spend p.res as an alien but always do as a marine. I save for Onos most of the time, and might spawn as a lerk or gorge for base defense if the situation calls for it. However, if your hive is under assault by even two marines with grenade launchers it's game over unless you have a higher lifeform somewhere else on the map who can reach the hive in time. (This assumes your grenade folks are alternating their fire, and not complete retards of course.)
There is always the chance for an excellent, or lucky, alien to catch them unawares and kill one or both of them. But without the ability to gestate into a higher lifeform in a timely manner the marines will always spawn camp the hell out of your hive. (It's also bad to rely on one elite or lucky player to make that big of a difference in a public game mind you.) If you have two hives, the first one is dead before you can reach it and you probably just lost all your higher lifeforms during the first assault. (Surprise, the marines will be in your second hive before you're done gestating, even if you have the res to change forms again. Even then, you'll probably be limited to a lerk. Good luck against those GL's little flyboy!)
+1
Mathematically speaking, an LMG fires ~18 bullets per second for ~180 dps Where as a shotgun fires ~1 shot per second for ~170 dps at w0.
DPS from firing without reloading:
LMG - 500 damage over 2.8s for ~179 dps
Shotgun - 1360 damage over ~7s for ~194 dps
To unload a full clip and reload it:
LMG - ~5s for 500 damage or ~100 dps
Shotgun - ~15s for 1360 damage or ~91dps
Using these metrics, the shotgun is very similar in damage output. Now let's look at why the shotgun costs 20 pres.
Mechanics advantage for shotgun:
-reload mechanic
---interruptable, partial reloading is possible
-larger magazine means more damage output before down time (1360 damage vs 500 damage)
-easier to aim 1 shot every second instead of tracking constantly
-more upfront damage (ie possibility of 1 shot skulk kills)
Mechanics advantage for LMG:
-low spread
-range
-much faster reload speed
The shotgun's pres cost and strength is justified. You're effectively paying pres for the mechanical advantages which are dominated by a) ease of use and b) upfront damage but you're sacrificing c) range and d) consistency (somewhat-random spread vs low spread).
And as a parting thought, let's consider how long it takes to kill a skulk in the likely scenario that you don't score a 1-hit kill despite scoring a close range shot on a skulk due to spread and orientation of skulk.
Shotgun - 2 shots ~1 second
LMG - 9 shots ~0.5s
Mathematically, LMGs kill skulks at least as fast as shotguns when presented with likely in game scenarios. The benefit of shotguns is not in their damage, but the mechanics in which they can apply their damage. And, in fact, if shotguns could not 1 shot skulks in the way they currently do then they would be subpar compared to LMGs for every situation in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty comprehensive. I would add that the dps for a SG is effectively always a second ahead though because it starts at 0secs whereas the lmg takes 1sec to hit 180damage (whereupon the sg leaps ahead again).
More generally, I still think it's going to be ridiculous when a good team of shotgunners emerges with solid performance. The fact that you're going to have a team of capable marines one-shotting everything with zero effect on the macro-economy is going to be insane.