<!--quoteo(post=1997981:date=Oct 26 2012, 12:08 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 26 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing that is potentially wrong here is someone using a script to exploit a 'bug'. While it may be possible or even likely that it was done via a script, you really can't prove that a script was being used - some people are just able to click very fast.
Gorgeous is right - there is no real discernable benefit to this supposed pistol scripting than using an lmg. I clicked the video expecting very very fast pistol scripting, but didn't see what such a big fuss was about.
Nevertheless, posting videos showing 'exploits', and publicizing their existence only help to make things worse. Next time OP, you should really email the devs about any supposed exploit...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seemed underwhelming I know because I didn't put much into making it that fast and my fps was locked to 30 by fraps in that video which makes a huge difference. Wait til the next video and you'll see what I mean. But no showing the exploit and publicizing it IS important, that's what the BETA is for. I'm not going to email the devs, that's what the forum is for.
<!--quoteo(post=1997991:date=Oct 26 2012, 12:23 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Oct 26 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to the "killing us before we heard anything", I believe that's because aliens can't hear pistol shots at all, but that's a separate bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually died several times and then heard the pistol crack like thunder as it went black.
The benefit of pistol scripting is not just being able to fire super fast, it's being able to do it by holding down a button. It's much more difficulty to aim precisely while spamming the mouse button as fast as you can. Scripting it is definitely abusive, and if it becomes commonplace I'd rather see the pistol support autofiring at full speed.
Ok here is another video and since there will be more doubts I'm sure I'm going to do one last by recording it with my phone since that won't have fraps slowing things down <a href="http://youtu.be/5JMRmuerjEI" target="_blank">video</a>
And here is the final video with my phone, much better example. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLDuUXj8ww" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLDuUXj8ww</a>
Davil I think you're wasting your time trying to convince ordinary members here, they can't do anything. It's one of these topics that goes on and on until a dev replies.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->I tried testing the bug I mentioned but saw no difference. As far as I can tell it was indeed fixed.
As for the videos you made, that does seem a bit fast but it's hard to say for sure. The intended refire rate on the pistol is minimal, as "pistol whipping" an alien before they notice they were getting shot is a classic feature of NS1. While it is kind of cheap, the pistol is capable of killing 2 skulks with one clip, and firing everything at once is a waste really.
In future you should, as Elodea pointed out, email the devs or one of the playtesters about possible exploits rather than discuss them publicly.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Have you seen the 3rd video? It's actually a lot more obvious, and it can actually be done where only half the magazine is used at a time. It fires extremely fast in the 3rd video.
<!--quoteo(post=1998017:date=Oct 26 2012, 10:21 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Oct 26 2012, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And here is the final video with my phone, much better example. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLDuUXj8ww" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLDuUXj8ww</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1998056:date=Oct 26 2012, 02:52 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 26 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now thats a tenth of a second. Would probably help the devs if you highlighted what you changed in the script from the first video to the second.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't change anything really, it's just a difference in frame rate. Their pistol shooting timer seems to be based upon framerate vice actual time. Which is a pretty common way of doing things, you check the time from rendering frame x to frame y. Basically for this exploit to work it requires a decent frame rate which up until recently very few people had. So that's why this hasn't really been a problem until now. I just macroed a button to press my fire button 10 times in a row with a .02 millisecond delay in between. From there it's just dependent on the frame rate on how fast it will fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1998029:date=Oct 26 2012, 09:50 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 26 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That definitely looks faster than a second, but is that on a public server or explore mode/lan? Servers have consistency checks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, not sure if you said you did this on a pub server or not. Was this the case?
That third video is obviously an exploit. Thank you for taking the time to do this Davil.
As for posting this in a public forum, instead of emailing the devs... I was playing a fighting game at an arcade once, and the arcade stick was not functioning in the game we were trying to play. My friend calmly stood up, checked to see if nobody was looking, picked up the chair he was sitting on, and proceeded to bash the stick in until it broke. It broke... and shortly enough, it was fixed.
Now, Davil feels strongly that this is a problem. But not everyone is on board with him. I know _I_ can't kill two skulks with one pistol clip, but one skulk in one click? That's like a shotgun. Perhaps if we started using the exploit, the arcade owner would realize that it is broken, and it needs to be fixed. Thanks for alerting us to this Davil. A few players I was playing with also found another player to be guilty of this. Perhaps he was the same player.
<!--quoteo(post=1998060:date=Oct 26 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 26 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, not sure if you said you did this on a pub server or not. Was this the case?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually did it on a lan server and then went on a public server and did it. I felt bad for the couple skulks I killed that way, and a few fades I turned around.
Hmm, I'm looking at the LUA code for the pistol. I can see a variable 'timelastshot', which I would assume would be used to limit the refire rate (IE don't actually fire if now < timelastshot + .1). But timelastshot is never set or used anywhere in the code. Its declared, and that's it. So, as far as I can tell there is no refire rate limit on the pistol. <u><b> Ok, here's how it works:</b></u>
local attackAllowed = (not self:GetPrimaryAttackRequiresPress() or not player:GetPrimaryAttackLastFrame())
attackAllowed is whether or not the player's desire to attack (from his key press) will actually result in an attack. GetPrimaryAttackRequiresPress is true if you need one press per shot or false if you can just hold down the fire button. Pistol, of course, is True here. GetPrimaryAttackLastFrame is just whether or not you had the attack button pressed last frame.
<b>So, the pistol simply checks to see if you had the attack button pressed last frame. If you did, it won't let you fire this frame. If you didn't, fire away. So, the pistol refire rate is strictly a function of FPS, not the rumored .1 sec limit.</b>
Davil, you can easily demonstrate this by using the 'maxfps' console command to limit your FPS. You will notice that as you bring your FPS down, you will have to increase the delay in your macro to avoid misfires.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
Don't need a script for this though, I can get very close to that fire rate without scripts as you can see from my pistol shots on video. The thing is though I tend to miss more with the pistol vs other weapons when doing that, unless aliens move in straight lines from me :P
<!--quoteo(post=1998067:date=Oct 26 2012, 03:08 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Oct 26 2012, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't need a script for this though, I can get very close to that fire rate without scripts as you can see from my pistol shots on video. The thing is though I tend to miss more with the pistol vs other weapons when doing that, unless aliens move in straight lines from me :P
Might be a bit too fast mayhaps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really doubt it's physically possible for you to shoot that fast without using two fingers. Are you referring to the last video I posted or one of the first 2?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1998071:date=Oct 26 2012, 10:12 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Oct 26 2012, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really doubt it's physically possible for you to shoot that fast without using two fingers. Are you referring to the last video I posted or one of the first 2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> First two vids, last on is sick :P
Seriously guys? who cares if he posted the problem on a public forum, this issue has been around since NS1 lol its not a "new" idea nor is it a "new" exploit. It's just the newest rendition of an oldie, that will probably never die. I would honestly say shame on the people trying to make him feel bad for posting a bug on the public forums. I think players being aware of a common exploit is worth a few extra people using it. As the G.I. Joes say, Knowing is half the battle. Because if your unaware there is a problem you just have frustrating game play that makes you log off.
Scripting causes these problems by creating inhuman reaction speeds/replication of perfect movement that people can't realistically achieve. Even if they can achieve it, they wouldn't be able to reproduce it perfectly on command with 100% accuracy. I have to laugh every time someone calls scripting legit, or says it doesn't matter cause there's not much you can do with it. The truth is there is a ton you can do with scripting. The ones who say it does not matter probably haven't tested it out with good ideas, and the ones who defend it against being called cheating are usually the ones who use it the most.
Right now things are getting changed constantly which also cause scripts to become broken with each patch. For now the only place you really see them is in competitive play/competitive players on pub servers. I know because I used to use them lol, the number of unrealistic and exploitative things you can setup are just silly.
Comments
Gorgeous is right - there is no real discernable benefit to this supposed pistol scripting than using an lmg. I clicked the video expecting very very fast pistol scripting, but didn't see what such a big fuss was about.
Nevertheless, posting videos showing 'exploits', and publicizing their existence only help to make things worse. Next time OP, you should really email the devs about any supposed exploit...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seemed underwhelming I know because I didn't put much into making it that fast and my fps was locked to 30 by fraps in that video which makes a huge difference. Wait til the next video and you'll see what I mean. But no showing the exploit and publicizing it IS important, that's what the BETA is for. I'm not going to email the devs, that's what the forum is for.
<!--quoteo(post=1997991:date=Oct 26 2012, 12:23 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Oct 26 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to the "killing us before we heard anything", I believe that's because aliens can't hear pistol shots at all, but that's a separate bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually died several times and then heard the pistol crack like thunder as it went black.
Ridiculous.
As for the videos you made, that does seem a bit fast but it's hard to say for sure. The intended refire rate on the pistol is minimal, as "pistol whipping" an alien before they notice they were getting shot is a classic feature of NS1. While it is kind of cheap, the pistol is capable of killing 2 skulks with one clip, and firing everything at once is a waste really.
In future you should, as Elodea pointed out, email the devs or one of the playtesters about possible exploits rather than discuss them publicly.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This is obvious. Please fix
Didn't change anything really, it's just a difference in frame rate. Their pistol shooting timer seems to be based upon framerate vice actual time. Which is a pretty common way of doing things, you check the time from rendering frame x to frame y. Basically for this exploit to work it requires a decent frame rate which up until recently very few people had. So that's why this hasn't really been a problem until now. I just macroed a button to press my fire button 10 times in a row with a .02 millisecond delay in between. From there it's just dependent on the frame rate on how fast it will fire.
Hey, not sure if you said you did this on a pub server or not. Was this the case?
As for posting this in a public forum, instead of emailing the devs...
I was playing a fighting game at an arcade once, and the arcade stick was not functioning in the game we were trying to play. My friend calmly stood up, checked to see if nobody was looking, picked up the chair he was sitting on, and proceeded to bash the stick in until it broke. It broke... and shortly enough, it was fixed.
Now, Davil feels strongly that this is a problem. But not everyone is on board with him. I know _I_ can't kill two skulks with one pistol clip, but one skulk in one click? That's like a shotgun. Perhaps if we started using the exploit, the arcade owner would realize that it is broken, and it needs to be fixed. Thanks for alerting us to this Davil. A few players I was playing with also found another player to be guilty of this. Perhaps he was the same player.
I actually did it on a lan server and then went on a public server and did it. I felt bad for the couple skulks I killed that way, and a few fades I turned around.
<u><b>
Ok, here's how it works:</b></u>
local attackAllowed = (not self:GetPrimaryAttackRequiresPress() or not player:GetPrimaryAttackLastFrame())
attackAllowed is whether or not the player's desire to attack (from his key press) will actually result in an attack. GetPrimaryAttackRequiresPress is true if you need one press per shot or false if you can just hold down the fire button. Pistol, of course, is True here. GetPrimaryAttackLastFrame is just whether or not you had the attack button pressed last frame.
<b>So, the pistol simply checks to see if you had the attack button pressed last frame. If you did, it won't let you fire this frame. If you didn't, fire away. So, the pistol refire rate is strictly a function of FPS, not the rumored .1 sec limit.</b>
Davil, you can easily demonstrate this by using the 'maxfps' console command to limit your FPS. You will notice that as you bring your FPS down, you will have to increase the delay in your macro to avoid misfires.
Might be a bit too fast mayhaps
Might be a bit too fast mayhaps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really doubt it's physically possible for you to shoot that fast without using two fingers. Are you referring to the last video I posted or one of the first 2?
First two vids, last on is sick :P
Scripting causes these problems by creating inhuman reaction speeds/replication of perfect movement that people can't realistically achieve. Even if they can achieve it, they wouldn't be able to reproduce it perfectly on command with 100% accuracy. I have to laugh every time someone calls scripting legit, or says it doesn't matter cause there's not much you can do with it. The truth is there is a ton you can do with scripting. The ones who say it does not matter probably haven't tested it out with good ideas, and the ones who defend it against being called cheating are usually the ones who use it the most.
Right now things are getting changed constantly which also cause scripts to become broken with each patch. For now the only place you really see them is in competitive play/competitive players on pub servers. I know because I used to use them lol, the number of unrealistic and exploitative things you can setup are just silly.