<!--quoteo(post=1994769:date=Oct 22 2012, 08:02 PM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Oct 22 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems like there is a deep impasse of perspective here (I was never talking about 'twitch' skill nor 'competitive 6 v 6', but tracking/prediction akak pattern recognition when talking about an absence of information) - we could argue back and forth about this additional skill issue and neither of us would come to a mutual conclusion. And so i don't think reasonable discussion is going to be of any more use.
However, I want to clarify the contention that you seem to have wholly misunderstood. It was never about <b>balance</b> or <b>competitive play</b> in its formal sense, it was about overall <b>playability</b> in the puristic design sense. I have a friend who i've introduced to NS2 and quite quickly as a new player got frustrated with the ammount of vision blocking - needless to say i felt like i'd wasted the free gift (this is to show that it's not about having bad or good aim, but simply <b>trying</b> to aim). Whether or not something measures up to a certain non-vision blocking marine ability, or whether or not some friendly applied effect is balanced by some other arguable advantage was never the issue - it was always the lower level fundamentals which quickly can be outlined as such in decreasing importance.
1) Vision blocking as implemented in NS2 is a bad balancing mechanism, there are other more interesting and meaningful ways of solving balance problems. The sheer number of them shows either an addiction to 'fixing' perceived problems with quick and easy bandaids, or just uncreative mechanic design. 2) AOE Vision blocking as implemented in NS2 is always one-sided (an effect will always effect one side and not the other vice versa) and abusable to the detriment of pub play. A sizable ammount of players find it a hindrance and entirely unenjoyable, as much as a sizable ammount of players do find it enjoyable. Almost all vision blocking effects are AOE. 3) At the very least, an ability should either vision block <b>or</b> do damage, never both.
Is it a balancing mechanism? To me it seems more like a feature.
If they remove the vision/audio impairment effects they might as well remove shade hive altogether. Not really a loss in the comp. scene because this "balancing mechanism" isn't balancing anything since it's never actually being used.
Not really much of a loss in pub play either, because 90% of the alien coms I've played under in the last month have either delayed shade until tech point 3 when the game's already won anyway, or not used any of the cyst rupture, ink, etc. abilities properly or at all - and spores are still frowned upon in favor of blink.
As far as it not being creative, at least artistically the ink shader for example is the most amazing and unique thing I've seen in an online game in the last 5 years at least. Sure, almost every "war" FPS has done flashbangs, smoke, atmo smoke and fog, post-processing filters with bloom etc., but NS2 really has something unique with these abilities.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited October 2012
Unfortunately that does seem to be the case.
The fundamental decision to use vision occlusion as a balancing measure is a design decision by the devs. Some of the listed effects are more of simple visual additions (jetpack smoke), while others have a marked tactical benefit intended and implied by use of the ability/weapon. Very little of the vision-alteration is present on the Frontiersman side, with visual 'neat factor' being the primary impetus, whereas Kharaa roll the reduced vision in as a distinct, intended (and frankly needed) tactical advantage. If the Frontiersman players' prediction accuracy is high, it is less effective. The very essence of 'skill'. In my opinion, it just adds to the disparity between the teams' playstyles, and is definitely a good thing, as well as raising the skill cap (rather than the reliance on mindless twitch-shooting).
Some new players will join and immediately leave. That is going to happen. Others will join, learn to adapt to those design decisions and enjoy the game as it was made. I'm certain that 'competitive' server-mods will become available with the extreme moddability of Spark, and may indeed eventually eclipse the official game due to the social stigma of how 'competitive' players simply play, with the frankly repugnant 'that's just how it's <i>done</i>' argument. This makes me a bit sad, and frankly still strikes me as cheating to remove an intended portion of the game to grant an advantage rather than learning to work within the intended constraints of the game.
1) Vision blocking was decided upon as a method of giving one team an advantage to counter the other team without relying on the same kind of balancing mechanics present in symmetrical games. NS(2) is intentionally asymmetrical. More flavor and unique ways to provide that balance is not a bad thing, despite 'competitive' complaints about a given method.
2) Jetpack smoke and flamethrower effects are visible to both sides, as far as I'm aware, and are primarily atmospheric. The majority of the vision-obscuring effects are relegated to the Kharaa as an advantage to playing on that team, for certain abilities and skills.
3) I would disagree here. There's no reason to segregate the two. It adds another aspect to a given skill/ability to allow for finer-tuned balancing if nothing else. If you want a 'real life' example, look at mustard gas. Just because other games separate occlusion and damage-dealing abilities does NOT mean that NS(2) needs to do so as well.
How did your friend activate the free copy prior to the launch ?
I dont play much NS 2 these days due to having overplayed the game near the 156 build mark, only popped on for a quick look and see new builds but the last few builds I got a few more matches in than usual and I can tell you from my experience the visual impairment was at best minimal, the effects were logical and so were not considered cheap tactics. The issue with effects is when cause and effect dont match properly... like the flashlight / laser aiming aid in BF 3, you literally couldnt see anything but it made no sense... these are not intended to be a visual impairment tool so it felt cheap. Alien goo flung / popping / dripping / sporing all over your character and obscuring vision makes sense, its part of your enemies arsenal of weapons.... as for JP's and the smoke ? To be honest I feel the audio cue is more a problem (sounds too much like a skulk chomp) than the smoke, additionally it makes a great side effect for such a powerfull tool.
UWE tried other means before, like Gorge spit used to slow marines down... remember the whine about that ? If the spore was less vision impairing , its damage would have to be increased dramatically for anyone to use it as its just a bit more of an nusiance than dangerous to the marines but a big risk to the lerk using it... the other means to impair vision are even more risky (Gorge spit , less accurate range weapon that cannot compete against Marine weapons... BB ? Less range , doesnt hurt the Marine it just removes armor and also exposes the Gorge to Marine ranged firepower).
Finally, other games have even more annoying visual impairment abilities ... like flashbangs and smokes in CS , laser sights and flshlights in BF 3 which are much more frustating than the effects in NS 2.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, other games have even more annoying visual impairment abilities ... like flashbangs and smokes in CS , laser sights and flshlights in BF 3 which are much more frustating than the effects in NS 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even more? You listed two. This comparison has already been addressed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=122043&view=findpost&p=1994131" target="_blank">here.</a>
Everyone I've introduced to the game have been annoyed and confused by the intrusive effects also. And certainly don't appreciate immersion in a competitive team based shooter.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE tried other means before, like Gorge spit used to slow marines down... remember the whine about that ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it was another unnecessary frustrating impairment for the marines.
The feedback I've gotten off of this thread has been nearly completely supportive, the people that enjoy negative abilities to balance abilities are potentially the minority. Great, because some of the replies here have been pretty depressing. If UWE intends to support this game for years, indicating a loyal base of returning players. How far do immersion effects and cheap balance mechanisms aid in this goal?
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited October 2012
Just to point out; just because they did not choose the same balancing mechanics as other games does not necessarily make them 'cheap'. Insisting that the game should adapt to suit your desired playstyle, because other games do it that way is just a <i>bit</i> ridiculous. NS2 is not those other games. It is not yet another Dutyfield Brown Army Shootan Mans 17 Black Reachstrike.
Deal with the frustration. Learn to adapt. Expand your own skillset.
<!--quoteo(post=1994822:date=Oct 22 2012, 06:39 AM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Oct 22 2012, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to point out; just because they did not choose the same balancing mechanics as other games does not necessarily make them 'cheap'. Insisting that the game should adapt to suit your desired playstyle, because other games do it that way is just a <i>bit</i> ridiculous. NS2 is not those other games. It is not yet another Dutyfield Brown Army Shootan Mans 17 Black Reachstrike.
Deal with the frustration. Learn to adapt. Expand your own skillset.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am in love with this post. Speaks my opinion vicariously
You go on and on about 'skill' and 'competitive', but that is missing the point. Don't make this a pro vs noob argument, because it is not.
The questions to ask are a) Is it fun, to be affected by vision impairing abilities. b) Is obscuring vision a good balancing mechanic. c) Is it necessary to use obstructing abilities or are there better alternatives.
My personal answers would be No, No and No it's not/Yes, there are (see NS1 for alternatives).
<!--quoteo(post=1994847:date=Oct 22 2012, 03:39 PM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Oct 22 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure how to adapt to that. But I'll take your advice under consideration Talesin. Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You shoot the gun randomly and hope the muzzleflashes and smoke and dust and tracers and the infestation getting teared to shreds and the alien blood and sparks because you shot the wall and the jet smoke because you pressed the jump key and the dust from landing and the shells flying allover and 100 other particle effects somehow cancel the other ones so you can see what youre trying to shoot!
<!--quoteo(post=1994297:date=Oct 21 2012, 02:34 AM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Oct 21 2012, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think it takes a lot more skill to make shots with obscured vision than with a clear-view-fullbright that tends to be favored by 'competitive' players. As in, it relies on skills beyond the basic mechanical twitch reflex to anticipate and predict movement. It also places a higher priority on squad tactics (in the case of spit and BB) and positioning rather than running around like a retarded Rambo and expecting 'skill' to keep you alive; with 'skill' defined purely as the ability to keep the crosshairs on a moving target and hold down the fire button.
In the latter case, there already is a game available for that 'gamer' segment. It's called Shootmania. It's stripped down to little more than a reaction game with super-fast running and weapons roughly based off of the Q3A railgun arena mode. I don't play it because it's FILLED with that kind of 'competitive' player. They're welcome to it, and to STAY there.
Personally, I <i>like</i> having the immersion even if it means the screen gets somewhat blocked. Kharaa frankly can't go toe-to-toe at this point, as they could in NS1. The moronic crack-bouncing has been carried across. High power and accuracy weapons with range are the Marines' strong point. The visual effects mitigate that somewhat, in the few cases when they are actually used.
Short version, people attributing visual impairment to being 'low skill' or 'not competitive' appear to rely purely on twitch ability to succeed, and none of the OTHER factors that should combine in an actual competitive arena. And in the process paint themselves very poorly when their one crutch can't serve them in a given game, deriding it as 'not competitive', when it is their own inability to adapt that puts them at the real disadvantage.
Shorter version? Sounds like a whole lot of sore-loser syndrome, to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^THIS!
Very sad that this legit discussion is destroyed by this people. Maybe the spore transparency could be increased indeed? Or the explosion / jet-pack particles could be reduced. But nobody mentions this anymore. It has just degenerated into a "We want white walls and pink aliens!" vs "No! Leave it as it is!"
Not sure how to adapt to that. But I'll take your advice under consideration Talesin. Thanks.
Thanks for boiling it down again Raza, those are the right questions to ask. Paired with the number of abilities that do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> THe duration for this event is quite small. You also have a huge minigun with big AOE like damage. And motion tracking on your hud
That screenshot above isn't bile bomb btw. Not sure what it is (cyst rupture??), because spit doesn't do anything to exos except tickle them a little - the visual effect from spit is completely absent in the current build, at least on my computer - but this is what bile bomb actually does:
You can see the bile bomb effect at 4:04 and at 4:34 when he's about to die. Little specs over the screen which don't obscure anything as much as giving you valuable feedback that "you are biled, and that's a bad thing."
Also, those screenshots like already mentioned in the thread are timed perfectly, and those visual effects disappear very quickly.
And the way to adapt to it is, either don't let it happen to begin with, shoot randomly or stop shooting and move to a better position :-) . I prefer the first.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012
Several seconds isn't a small amount of time, and it's extrapolated considering a gorge can continue the effect with a very low amount of required precision by just bile bombing some more. Admittedly I use a mod to disable the motion tracking. Would circles all over the screen actually help in the situation?
edit: I've never even seen that effect before HeatSurge, heh. I can ensure you that the screenshot was taken with a gorge bile bombing though.
Now that's weird. The youtube video above is what happens to me as an exo too. And as a marine, getting bile-bombed only shows an effect on my gun or it's really subtle similar to the exo one, can't even remember - but it definitely leaves the area around the crosshair clear as marine.
Are those effects different for different settings? Were the OP screenshots taken at max settings (Edit: shows 221 build) o_0 ?
Very sad that this legit discussion is destroyed by this people. Maybe the spore transparency could be increased indeed? Or the explosion / jet-pack particles could be reduced. But nobody mentions this anymore. It has just degenerated into a "We want white walls and pink aliens!" vs "No! Leave it as it is!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please provide quotes to evidence this!! Otherwise all you're doing is throwing mud in the faces of people who actually do want to have a legit discussion. Nowhere in this post have i seen anything even close to what you (and many others) seem to think we are saying.
<!--QuoteBegin-Asnogard+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asnogard)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How did your friend activate the free copy prior to the launch ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I should have been clearer. I let him play on my account but he already has the gift bound to his.
*<!--QuoteBegin-Dictator93+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dictator93)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->THe duration for this event is quite small. You also have a huge minigun with big AOE like damage. And motion tracking on your hud<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <u><b>Duration</b></u> Two parts. The duration is not small in the context of ns2 considering the speed in which combat occurs - see strobe effects and how the human brain inherently finds it very hard to figure out exact differences between two images if they are separated by black or absence of information. Instead of goo on your screen, you could simply compare it to fighting a player that is lagging around. Why is the former acceptable but not the latter?
Also, the gorge can simply keep reapplying the effect so duration is irrelevant.
<u><b>Minigun aoe</b></u> What are you talking about? The spread is quite accurate, especially in close quarters, and there is no aoe damage.
<u><b>HUD Motion tracking</b></u> This by itself is a visual impairment. Just like obs and scan circle reveals lag around in 'snapshots'. Notice how UWE has specifically designed the exo around not having a crosshair? What does that say about the level of visual feedback blocking going on?
<!--quoteo(post=1994871:date=Oct 22 2012, 03:36 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 22 2012, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please provide quotes to evidence this!! Otherwise all you're doing is throwing mud in the faces of people who actually do want to have a legit discussion. Nowhere in this post have i seen anything even close to what you (and many others) seem to think we are saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, I quote the whole thread. Excluding (maybe) 3 posts. I can't find any discussion about how this system could be tweaked to work as balancer for the melee / range asymmetry without obstructing the view this much. Nor can I find a discussion about a replacement for vision obstruction as balancing for asymmetric games.
All that is talked about is getting simply rid of it or letting it in. But Talesin has written this better than me.
<!--quoteo(post=1994857:date=Oct 23 2012, 12:01 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 23 2012, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That screenshot above isn't bile bomb btw. Not sure what it is (cyst rupture??), because spit doesn't do anything to exos except tickle them a little - the visual effect from spit is completely absent in the current build, at least on my computer - but this is what bile bomb actually does:
You can see the bile bomb effect at 4:04 and at 4:34 when he's about to die. Little specs over the screen which don't obscure anything as much as giving you valuable feedback that "you are biled, and that's a bad thing."
Also, those screenshots like already mentioned in the thread are timed perfectly, and those visual effects disappear very quickly.
And the way to adapt to it is, either don't let it happen to begin with, shoot randomly or stop shooting and move to a better position :-) . I prefer the first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That footage is from several builds back. Whether or not the bile effect has changed since then i don't know, but that would explain the discrepancy here.
Again, its not about 'timing'. Imagine if you were walking along and every so often you see a flash of white light and nothing else for a small fraction of a second. Is that not disorientating in and of itself?
* <!--QuoteBegin-_Necro_+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I quote the whole thread. Excluding (maybe) 3 posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, i think the only explanation then is that you are being overly defensive about people being a 'threat' to what you seem to enjoy and colouring your interpretation as such.
<!--QuoteBegin-Male_Fatalities+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Male_Fatalities)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wayyyyyyyyy to much vision obscuring. I wouldn't care if there was an option to turn it off but there isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Elodea+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Elodea)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's fine that people enjoy the immersion. I don't think anyone here on the anti vision blocking side is arguing simply to take away your enjoyment. While you all demand that your immersive experience be recognised, also recognise that others don't enjoy such (or rather enjoy the player vs player aspect more than immersion).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*More edit <!--QuoteBegin-_Necro_+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't find any discussion about how this system could be tweaked to work as balancer for the melee / range asymmetry without obstructing the view this much. Nor can I find a discussion about a replacement for vision obstruction as balancing for asymmetric games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're not being entirely honest to yourself here. The obvious tweak that doesn't need stating is simple - <b>tone down the vision obstruction effects/particles</b>. Is this not satisfactory?
You know what i find paradoxically strange? One one hand people will argue that vision obstruction is ok becuase it happens so rarely as to be inconsequential. Then on the other hand they argue that vision obstruction is absolutely necessary as a balance mechanism, otherwise the hordes of marines will come down off the steppes and sweep away the alien nations. Which is it?
Whatever the case, suggestions about replacements for vision obstruction have been clearly raised. However, discussion about a solution first requires mutual acceptance of the problem, which obviously hasn't occured yet. A bit ironic for someone who won't accept the problem to then attack the other side for not having discussed the solution.
I think each impairment should be discussed separately as they are quite different, for example:
<b>Low health visual/sound.</b> The function of low health feedback is to inform the player that he's vulnerable and to force him to get healed.
1. Players shouldn't be forced to get healed, rather they should be able to decide depending on the situation. 2. Low health notification shouldn't impair the player effectiveness as having low health makes him very vulnerable already. 3. Information can be conveyed without being annoying.
<b>Umbra</b> The function of umbra is to suck some bullets to protect aliens.
1. Visual impairment is redundant with the basic function of umbra. Umbra should be made a transparent as possible (players can still identify clearly umbra clouds).
<b>Jetpack dust</b>
Jetpack dust has no gameplay function, it's there only to give life to the game.
1. Jetpack dust should be made as discrete as possible (visually and fps-wise) while still giving some life to the world.
<!--quoteo(post=1994878:date=Oct 22 2012, 03:55 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 22 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whatever the case, suggestions about replacements for vision obstruction have been clearly raised. However, discussion about a solution first requires mutual acceptance of the problem, which obviously hasn't occured yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this exactly is the problem. The radical positions have taken over the thread from the beginning. No chance that anybody from the other side will agree with your version of "how much is wrong". Thats why everybody gets defensive and demand that nothing is been changed.
People who want a mediocre change, have no chance. Maybe some effects should be really toned down a bit. But this can't even be discussed.
€dit: Or at least it couldn't. Yuuki proofed otherwise.
@Yuuki: I agree with your JetPack and Umbra statements. But I think the low-health-obstruction isn't to force the player to get healed. But to make a wounded player a little less of a threat. In game play this allows consecutive attacks from aliens to be more effective. Because a wounded marine is a little bit easier to ambush / kill (on top of his low health). Plus, a noob gets this satisfying pro-kill because his opponent can't aim / hear this good when he is injured. Even lore-wise it makes sence, that a injured marine isn't this combat aware as a healthy one.
One can argue if this is necessary or not. But I think it adds some variety and immersion to the game that I don't want to miss. And beside this, it has a balance effect.
Would you rather they change visual impairment to movement impairment, there is a need for some other aspect then pure damage to health and if your against visual impairment the only option I see left is movement.... Thus you are left with a 10hp rine limping back to get healed, and a sluggish exo covered in bile bomb. Personally I think people would be far more upset with being limited in movement then visually, so unless you can thing of an alternative to imparing vision or movement I see no point to this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1994932:date=Oct 22 2012, 06:06 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 22 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with your JetPack and Umbra statements. But I think the low-health-obstruction isn't to force the player to get healed. But to make a wounded player a little less of a threat. In game play this allows consecutive attacks from aliens to be more effective. Because a wounded marine is a little bit easier to ambush / kill (on top of his low health). Plus, a noob gets this satisfying pro-kill because his opponent can't aim / hear this good when he is injured. Even lore-wise it makes sence, that a injured marine isn't this combat aware as a healthy one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, UWE has stated before that the low-health thing is meant to be a warning. For the rest of that paragraph: A wounded player already is less of a threat, because he can be killed faster.
We need VERY HOT Blow Dryers and Electric Jet Packs.
So we don't have the flame thrower and smoke problems.
Also I think the aliens shouldn't have saliva, blood, or liquid of any type. Lets change them to robots. But electric robots! If they run off of steam or gas the smoke/steam would obscure vision.
/End of overly exaggerated arguments about vision impairments.
There are solutions to every problem. In true high level of play in ANY game, people will constantly adapt to be the best. Someone will find a solution to a problem and it will become a counter, then the opposing side will counter that counter, and there will be a new counter for that. ~~ All games that are highly strategic and skill based are like this when you get to the High-End Competitive play.
The only time this doesn't apply is if it is a GAME-BREAKING exploit. (Not a normal exploit, because all exploits are also used by High-End Competitive players as well) You are basically the people that complained on Street Fighter when someone on Ryu spammed projectiles. It isn't cheating or unfair, it is a game mechanic, learn to play the game.
this is really funny - lots of people are saying that "it's only half a second, it's not a big deal at all."
O.K. then, so if it's only for a split second, and none of the forum-pros are having any battles decided by it, then what is it? is it a balancing factor, or an annoyance? elodea made a great point - disregard whether or not it <i>works</i> (it clearly doesn't, but some people are having trouble getting past that), and focus on whether or not it's <i>fun</i> to try to play games with mess all over your screen.
Oh and by the way, Only 2 of the pictures on the first post even makes it any harder to aim or target an enemy. The rest basically tint the screen a certain color, woop de do.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1994838:date=Oct 22 2012, 05:29 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Oct 22 2012, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The questions to ask are a) Is it fun, to be affected by vision impairing abilities. b) Is obscuring vision a good balancing mechanic. c) Is it necessary to use obstructing abilities or are there better alternatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) Thats like asking if its fun to be on the victim end of a boomer, tank, spitter, flashbang, smoke grenade etc... Its not supposed to be fun, you're on the receiving end of an attack/tactic. Its never "fun" to lose either, but that mechanic remains. ;) A better question would be "Is it avoidable?" because a boomer, flashbang, and at some lengths a tank and smoke grenade are too. (see below for expansion on this)
b) As long as its not heavily relied on or too frequent and is avoidable/counterable to some extent (you cant counter smoke grenades but you can avoid them and they can still be amazing tactics for distracting and obscuration for an assault etc)
c) See b. But if there is an alternatives i dont think they are off the table.
IMO, you can remove every one of those effects because they don't serve a strong function.. save for two :
1) <b>Hurt visual notification</b> (tho it could be toned down..) to communicate low health for the newer players who may not be accustomed or adequate at looking at the lower left of their screen in hectic battles.
2) <b>Lerk spores.</b> As long as they are crop dusting - and i hope they always will be to some extent - Obscuration is far more important to it's survival/role than damage ever would be. Obscuration allows the lerk and his team to engage with their weapons, and allows the weak lifeform to escape more effectively, and the spores are easy to avoid, both utilizing movement (sidestep like 2 steps?) and with aim (look up and shoot the highly weak, slow lerk before its overhead?) not to mention that they are rarely researched or used in the first place due to the high risk of using them and being tier 2 / contending with leap, blink, bile.
Comments
It seems like there is a deep impasse of perspective here (I was never talking about 'twitch' skill nor 'competitive 6 v 6', but tracking/prediction akak pattern recognition when talking about an absence of information) - we could argue back and forth about this additional skill issue and neither of us would come to a mutual conclusion. And so i don't think reasonable discussion is going to be of any more use.
However, I want to clarify the contention that you seem to have wholly misunderstood. It was never about <b>balance</b> or <b>competitive play</b> in its formal sense, it was about overall <b>playability</b> in the puristic design sense. I have a friend who i've introduced to NS2 and quite quickly as a new player got frustrated with the ammount of vision blocking - needless to say i felt like i'd wasted the free gift (this is to show that it's not about having bad or good aim, but simply <b>trying</b> to aim). Whether or not something measures up to a certain non-vision blocking marine ability, or whether or not some friendly applied effect is balanced by some other arguable advantage was never the issue - it was always the lower level fundamentals which quickly can be outlined as such in decreasing importance.
1) Vision blocking as implemented in NS2 is a bad balancing mechanism, there are other more interesting and meaningful ways of solving balance problems. The sheer number of them shows either an addiction to 'fixing' perceived problems with quick and easy bandaids, or just uncreative mechanic design.
2) AOE Vision blocking as implemented in NS2 is always one-sided (an effect will always effect one side and not the other vice versa) and abusable to the detriment of pub play. A sizable ammount of players find it a hindrance and entirely unenjoyable, as much as a sizable ammount of players do find it enjoyable. Almost all vision blocking effects are AOE.
3) At the very least, an ability should either vision block <b>or</b> do damage, never both.
If they remove the vision/audio impairment effects they might as well remove shade hive altogether. Not really a loss in the comp. scene because this "balancing mechanism" isn't balancing anything since it's never actually being used.
Not really much of a loss in pub play either, because 90% of the alien coms I've played under in the last month have either delayed shade until tech point 3 when the game's already won anyway, or not used any of the cyst rupture, ink, etc. abilities properly or at all - and spores are still frowned upon in favor of blink.
As far as it not being creative, at least artistically the ink shader for example is the most amazing and unique thing I've seen in an online game in the last 5 years at least. Sure, almost every "war" FPS has done flashbangs, smoke, atmo smoke and fog, post-processing filters with bloom etc., but NS2 really has something unique with these abilities.
The fundamental decision to use vision occlusion as a balancing measure is a design decision by the devs. Some of the listed effects are more of simple visual additions (jetpack smoke), while others have a marked tactical benefit intended and implied by use of the ability/weapon. Very little of the vision-alteration is present on the Frontiersman side, with visual 'neat factor' being the primary impetus, whereas Kharaa roll the reduced vision in as a distinct, intended (and frankly needed) tactical advantage. If the Frontiersman players' prediction accuracy is high, it is less effective. The very essence of 'skill'. In my opinion, it just adds to the disparity between the teams' playstyles, and is definitely a good thing, as well as raising the skill cap (rather than the reliance on mindless twitch-shooting).
Some new players will join and immediately leave. That is going to happen. Others will join, learn to adapt to those design decisions and enjoy the game as it was made.
I'm certain that 'competitive' server-mods will become available with the extreme moddability of Spark, and may indeed eventually eclipse the official game due to the social stigma of how 'competitive' players simply play, with the frankly repugnant 'that's just how it's <i>done</i>' argument. This makes me a bit sad, and frankly still strikes me as cheating to remove an intended portion of the game to grant an advantage rather than learning to work within the intended constraints of the game.
1) Vision blocking was decided upon as a method of giving one team an advantage to counter the other team without relying on the same kind of balancing mechanics present in symmetrical games. NS(2) is intentionally asymmetrical. More flavor and unique ways to provide that balance is not a bad thing, despite 'competitive' complaints about a given method.
2) Jetpack smoke and flamethrower effects are visible to both sides, as far as I'm aware, and are primarily atmospheric. The majority of the vision-obscuring effects are relegated to the Kharaa as an advantage to playing on that team, for certain abilities and skills.
3) I would disagree here. There's no reason to segregate the two. It adds another aspect to a given skill/ability to allow for finer-tuned balancing if nothing else. If you want a 'real life' example, look at mustard gas. Just because other games separate occlusion and damage-dealing abilities does NOT mean that NS(2) needs to do so as well.
I dont play much NS 2 these days due to having overplayed the game near the 156 build mark, only popped on for a quick look and see new builds but the last few builds I got a few more matches in than usual and I can tell you from my experience the visual impairment was at best minimal, the effects were logical and so were not considered cheap tactics.
The issue with effects is when cause and effect dont match properly... like the flashlight / laser aiming aid in BF 3, you literally couldnt see anything but it made no sense... these are not intended to be a visual impairment tool so it felt cheap.
Alien goo flung / popping / dripping / sporing all over your character and obscuring vision makes sense, its part of your enemies arsenal of weapons.... as for JP's and the smoke ? To be honest I feel the audio cue is more a problem (sounds too much like a skulk chomp) than the smoke, additionally it makes a great side effect for such a powerfull tool.
UWE tried other means before, like Gorge spit used to slow marines down... remember the whine about that ?
If the spore was less vision impairing , its damage would have to be increased dramatically for anyone to use it as its just a bit more of an nusiance than dangerous to the marines but a big risk to the lerk using it... the other means to impair vision are even more risky (Gorge spit , less accurate range weapon that cannot compete against Marine weapons... BB ? Less range , doesnt hurt the Marine it just removes armor and also exposes the Gorge to Marine ranged firepower).
Finally, other games have even more annoying visual impairment abilities ... like flashbangs and smokes in CS , laser sights and flshlights in BF 3 which are much more frustating than the effects in NS 2.
Even more? You listed two. This comparison has already been addressed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=122043&view=findpost&p=1994131" target="_blank">here.</a>
Everyone I've introduced to the game have been annoyed and confused by the intrusive effects also. And certainly don't appreciate immersion in a competitive team based shooter.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE tried other means before, like Gorge spit used to slow marines down... remember the whine about that ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it was another unnecessary frustrating impairment for the marines.
The feedback I've gotten off of this thread has been nearly completely supportive, the people that enjoy negative abilities to balance abilities are potentially the minority. Great, because some of the replies here have been pretty depressing. If UWE intends to support this game for years, indicating a loyal base of returning players. How far do immersion effects and cheap balance mechanisms aid in this goal?
Deal with the frustration. Learn to adapt. Expand your own skillset.
Deal with the frustration. Learn to adapt. Expand your own skillset.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am in love with this post. Speaks my opinion vicariously
You go on and on about 'skill' and 'competitive', but that is missing the point.
Don't make this a pro vs noob argument, because it is not.
The questions to ask are
a) Is it fun, to be affected by vision impairing abilities.
b) Is obscuring vision a good balancing mechanic.
c) Is it necessary to use obstructing abilities or are there better alternatives.
My personal answers would be No, No and No it's not/Yes, there are (see NS1 for alternatives).
Otherwise I enjoy the atmospheric effects and have no problem with something effecting vision if it's reasonable and avoidable.
Someone gave a good example of flashbangs in Counter Strike. You could turn away or hide to minimise blinding.
Not sure how to adapt to that. But I'll take your advice under consideration Talesin. Thanks.
Thanks for boiling it down again Raza, those are the right questions to ask. Paired with the number of abilities that do it.
You shoot the gun randomly and hope the muzzleflashes and smoke and dust and tracers and the infestation getting teared to shreds and the alien blood and sparks because you shot the wall and the jet smoke because you pressed the jump key and the dust from landing and the shells flying allover and 100 other particle effects somehow cancel the other ones so you can see what youre trying to shoot!
Its pretty obvious really!
As in, it relies on skills beyond the basic mechanical twitch reflex to anticipate and predict movement. It also places a higher priority on squad tactics (in the case of spit and BB) and positioning rather than running around like a retarded Rambo and expecting 'skill' to keep you alive; with 'skill' defined purely as the ability to keep the crosshairs on a moving target and hold down the fire button.
In the latter case, there already is a game available for that 'gamer' segment. It's called Shootmania. It's stripped down to little more than a reaction game with super-fast running and weapons roughly based off of the Q3A railgun arena mode. I don't play it because it's FILLED with that kind of 'competitive' player. They're welcome to it, and to STAY there.
Personally, I <i>like</i> having the immersion even if it means the screen gets somewhat blocked. Kharaa frankly can't go toe-to-toe at this point, as they could in NS1. The moronic crack-bouncing has been carried across. High power and accuracy weapons with range are the Marines' strong point. The visual effects mitigate that somewhat, in the few cases when they are actually used.
Short version, people attributing visual impairment to being 'low skill' or 'not competitive' appear to rely purely on twitch ability to succeed, and none of the OTHER factors that should combine in an actual competitive arena. And in the process paint themselves very poorly when their one crutch can't serve them in a given game, deriding it as 'not competitive', when it is their own inability to adapt that puts them at the real disadvantage.
Shorter version? Sounds like a whole lot of sore-loser syndrome, to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^THIS!
Very sad that this legit discussion is destroyed by this people. Maybe the spore transparency could be increased indeed? Or the explosion / jet-pack particles could be reduced. But nobody mentions this anymore. It has just degenerated into a "We want white walls and pink aliens!" vs "No! Leave it as it is!"
Not sure how to adapt to that. But I'll take your advice under consideration Talesin. Thanks.
Thanks for boiling it down again Raza, those are the right questions to ask. Paired with the number of abilities that do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THe duration for this event is quite small. You also have a huge minigun with big AOE like damage. And motion tracking on your hud
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiS7Jb1pdKg" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiS7Jb1pdKg</a>
You can see the bile bomb effect at 4:04 and at 4:34 when he's about to die. Little specs over the screen which don't obscure anything as much as giving you valuable feedback that "you are biled, and that's a bad thing."
Also, those screenshots like already mentioned in the thread are timed perfectly, and those visual effects disappear very quickly.
And the way to adapt to it is, either don't let it happen to begin with, shoot randomly or stop shooting and move to a better position :-) . I prefer the first.
edit: I've never even seen that effect before HeatSurge, heh. I can ensure you that the screenshot was taken with a gorge bile bombing though.
Are those effects different for different settings? Were the OP screenshots taken at max settings (Edit: shows 221 build) o_0 ?
Very sad that this legit discussion is destroyed by this people. Maybe the spore transparency could be increased indeed? Or the explosion / jet-pack particles could be reduced. But nobody mentions this anymore. It has just degenerated into a "We want white walls and pink aliens!" vs "No! Leave it as it is!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please provide quotes to evidence this!! Otherwise all you're doing is throwing mud in the faces of people who actually do want to have a legit discussion. Nowhere in this post have i seen anything even close to what you (and many others) seem to think we are saying.
<!--QuoteBegin-Asnogard+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asnogard)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How did your friend activate the free copy prior to the launch ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have been clearer. I let him play on my account but he already has the gift bound to his.
*<!--QuoteBegin-Dictator93+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dictator93)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->THe duration for this event is quite small. You also have a huge minigun with big AOE like damage. And motion tracking on your hud<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<u><b>Duration</b></u>
Two parts. The duration is not small in the context of ns2 considering the speed in which combat occurs - see strobe effects and how the human brain inherently finds it very hard to figure out exact differences between two images if they are separated by black or absence of information. Instead of goo on your screen, you could simply compare it to fighting a player that is lagging around. Why is the former acceptable but not the latter?
Also, the gorge can simply keep reapplying the effect so duration is irrelevant.
<u><b>Minigun aoe</b></u>
What are you talking about? The spread is quite accurate, especially in close quarters, and there is no aoe damage.
<u><b>HUD Motion tracking</b></u>
This by itself is a visual impairment. Just like obs and scan circle reveals lag around in 'snapshots'.
Notice how UWE has specifically designed the exo around not having a crosshair? What does that say about the level of visual feedback blocking going on?
The only time vision becomes an issue is when you have 4+ people fighting each other at the same time in a small space.
Ok, I quote the whole thread. Excluding (maybe) 3 posts. I can't find any discussion about how this system could be tweaked to work as balancer for the melee / range asymmetry without obstructing the view this much. Nor can I find a discussion about a replacement for vision obstruction as balancing for asymmetric games.
All that is talked about is getting simply rid of it or letting it in. But Talesin has written this better than me.
It is only logical.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiS7Jb1pdKg" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiS7Jb1pdKg</a>
You can see the bile bomb effect at 4:04 and at 4:34 when he's about to die. Little specs over the screen which don't obscure anything as much as giving you valuable feedback that "you are biled, and that's a bad thing."
Also, those screenshots like already mentioned in the thread are timed perfectly, and those visual effects disappear very quickly.
And the way to adapt to it is, either don't let it happen to begin with, shoot randomly or stop shooting and move to a better position :-) . I prefer the first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That footage is from several builds back. Whether or not the bile effect has changed since then i don't know, but that would explain the discrepancy here.
Again, its not about 'timing'. Imagine if you were walking along and every so often you see a flash of white light and nothing else for a small fraction of a second. Is that not disorientating in and of itself?
*
<!--QuoteBegin-_Necro_+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I quote the whole thread. Excluding (maybe) 3 posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, i think the only explanation then is that you are being overly defensive about people being a 'threat' to what you seem to enjoy and colouring your interpretation as such.
<!--QuoteBegin-Male_Fatalities+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Male_Fatalities)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wayyyyyyyyy to much vision obscuring. I wouldn't care if there was an option to turn it off but there isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Elodea+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Elodea)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's fine that people enjoy the immersion. I don't think anyone here on the anti vision blocking side is arguing simply to take away your enjoyment. While you all demand that your immersive experience be recognised, also recognise that others don't enjoy such (or rather enjoy the player vs player aspect more than immersion).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*More edit
<!--QuoteBegin-_Necro_+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't find any discussion about how this system could be tweaked to work as balancer for the melee / range asymmetry without obstructing the view this much. Nor can I find a discussion about a replacement for vision obstruction as balancing for asymmetric games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not being entirely honest to yourself here. The obvious tweak that doesn't need stating is simple - <b>tone down the vision obstruction effects/particles</b>. Is this not satisfactory?
You know what i find paradoxically strange? One one hand people will argue that vision obstruction is ok becuase it happens so rarely as to be inconsequential. Then on the other hand they argue that vision obstruction is absolutely necessary as a balance mechanism, otherwise the hordes of marines will come down off the steppes and sweep away the alien nations. Which is it?
Whatever the case, suggestions about replacements for vision obstruction have been clearly raised. However, discussion about a solution first requires mutual acceptance of the problem, which obviously hasn't occured yet. A bit ironic for someone who won't accept the problem to then attack the other side for not having discussed the solution.
<b>Low health visual/sound.</b>
The function of low health feedback is to inform the player that he's vulnerable and to force him to get healed.
1. Players shouldn't be forced to get healed, rather they should be able to decide depending on the situation.
2. Low health notification shouldn't impair the player effectiveness as having low health makes him very vulnerable already.
3. Information can be conveyed without being annoying.
<b>Umbra</b>
The function of umbra is to suck some bullets to protect aliens.
1. Visual impairment is redundant with the basic function of umbra. Umbra should be made a transparent as possible (players can still identify clearly umbra clouds).
<b>Jetpack dust</b>
Jetpack dust has no gameplay function, it's there only to give life to the game.
1. Jetpack dust should be made as discrete as possible (visually and fps-wise) while still giving some life to the world.
etc.
And this exactly is the problem. The radical positions have taken over the thread from the beginning. No chance that anybody from the other side will agree with your version of "how much is wrong". Thats why everybody gets defensive and demand that nothing is been changed.
People who want a mediocre change, have no chance. Maybe some effects should be really toned down a bit. But this can't even be discussed.
€dit: Or at least it couldn't. Yuuki proofed otherwise.
@Yuuki:
I agree with your JetPack and Umbra statements. But I think the low-health-obstruction isn't to force the player to get healed. But to make a wounded player a little less of a threat. In game play this allows consecutive attacks from aliens to be more effective. Because a wounded marine is a little bit easier to ambush / kill (on top of his low health). Plus, a noob gets this satisfying pro-kill because his opponent can't aim / hear this good when he is injured. Even lore-wise it makes sence, that a injured marine isn't this combat aware as a healthy one.
One can argue if this is necessary or not. But I think it adds some variety and immersion to the game that I don't want to miss. And beside this, it has a balance effect.
No, UWE has stated before that the low-health thing is meant to be a warning.
For the rest of that paragraph: A wounded player already is less of a threat, because he can be killed faster.
So we don't have the flame thrower and smoke problems.
Also I think the aliens shouldn't have saliva, blood, or liquid of any type. Lets change them to robots.
But electric robots! If they run off of steam or gas the smoke/steam would obscure vision.
/End of overly exaggerated arguments about vision impairments.
There are solutions to every problem. In true high level of play in ANY game, people will constantly adapt to be the best.
Someone will find a solution to a problem and it will become a counter, then the opposing side will counter that counter, and there will be a new counter for that.
~~ All games that are highly strategic and skill based are like this when you get to the High-End Competitive play.
The only time this doesn't apply is if it is a GAME-BREAKING exploit.
(Not a normal exploit, because all exploits are also used by High-End Competitive players as well)
You are basically the people that complained on Street Fighter when someone on Ryu spammed projectiles. It isn't cheating or unfair, it is a game mechanic, learn to play the game.
O.K. then, so if it's only for a split second, and none of the forum-pros are having any battles decided by it, then what is it? is it a balancing factor, or an annoyance? elodea made a great point - disregard whether or not it <i>works</i> (it clearly doesn't, but some people are having trouble getting past that), and focus on whether or not it's <i>fun</i> to try to play games with mess all over your screen.
a) Is it fun, to be affected by vision impairing abilities.
b) Is obscuring vision a good balancing mechanic.
c) Is it necessary to use obstructing abilities or are there better alternatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) Thats like asking if its fun to be on the victim end of a boomer, tank, spitter, flashbang, smoke grenade etc... Its not supposed to be fun, you're on the receiving end of an attack/tactic. Its never "fun" to lose either, but that mechanic remains. ;) A better question would be "Is it avoidable?" because a boomer, flashbang, and at some lengths a tank and smoke grenade are too. (see below for expansion on this)
b) As long as its not heavily relied on or too frequent and is avoidable/counterable to some extent (you cant counter smoke grenades but you can avoid them and they can still be amazing tactics for distracting and obscuration for an assault etc)
c) See b. But if there is an alternatives i dont think they are off the table.
IMO, you can remove every one of those effects because they don't serve a strong function.. save for two :
1) <b>Hurt visual notification</b> (tho it could be toned down..) to communicate low health for the newer players who may not be accustomed or adequate at looking at the lower left of their screen in hectic battles.
2) <b>Lerk spores.</b> As long as they are crop dusting - and i hope they always will be to some extent - Obscuration is far more important to it's survival/role than damage ever would be. Obscuration allows the lerk and his team to engage with their weapons, and allows the weak lifeform to escape more effectively, and the spores are easy to avoid, both utilizing movement (sidestep like 2 steps?) and with aim (look up and shoot the highly weak, slow lerk before its overhead?) not to mention that they are rarely researched or used in the first place due to the high risk of using them and being tier 2 / contending with leap, blink, bile.