NS2 is obsessed with obscuring vision

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Comments

  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1994384:date=Oct 21 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 21 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its silly to expect your team-mates to be able to see through spores, cyst ruptures, jetpack smoke, flamethrower smoke, explosions, biles, vortexes etc. (notice how many there are besides spit) any better than you can. These are AOE effects. What additional "skill" counters this? When you have an absence of information, can you really say that it takes more <b>skill</b> to take a frag, or is it actually more <b>luck</b>? Do you think its good design to require so called <b>"additional skill"</b> in order to overcome <b>friendly applied vision blocking</b> such as jetpack/flame smoke? Are these friendly applied effects really balance mechanisms or badly implemented 'immersion' tools?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    very much agreed on the friendlies. if it's supposed to be a gameplay mechanic, then the execution is extremely poor and unreliable and needs to be adjusted.

    another frustrating example is the motion tracking circles that are for some reason still visible, and still update like a slideshow despite the alien being in plain sight. how is that immersion? that's clutter.

    <!--quoteo(post=1994484:date=Oct 21 2012, 7:25 AM:name=lolwow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolwow @ Oct 21 2012, 7:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->.... what would be the point of having them in the game if you could deactivate them? The whole point is obscuring marines' vision because they rely on it to shoot accurately
    think of it as smoke/flash grenades in most FPS or the lights in splinter cell multiplayer, do you cry about them too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    what a silly example. the obvious part is in a multiplayer competitive RTS/FPS, don't balance based around luck-based mechanics? is splinter cell attempting to be a competitive RTS/FPS?
  • ASnogarDASnogarD Join Date: 2003-10-24 Member: 21894Members
    Flayra and co, perhaps you better make a mod for the 'skilled' players, the mod will only consist on neutral coloured walls and floors, no props or decorations and few rooms with passageways but all open doors. The characters should be merely human sized boxes and there must be no HUD , just a precise dot aiming reticle.... remove the various weapons and abilities and subsitute a slow shooting single shot kill hitscan weapon with no muzzle flash.
    Audio must be limited to UT2KI announcer and simple laser sounds and a short Wilheim scream when a player dies... no music.

    The rest of us noobs will play NS2 with goo up to the eyeballs.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    *throws mud in everyone's face*
  • {GGs} Chicken{GGs} Chicken Join Date: 2011-11-22 Member: 134663Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1994513:date=Oct 21 2012, 09:51 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Oct 21 2012, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*throws mud in everyone's face*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Stop playing NS2 on the forums
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1994513:date=Oct 22 2012, 03:51 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Oct 22 2012, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*throws mud in everyone's <b>eyeballs</b>*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Fixed that for you.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1994526:date=Oct 22 2012, 04:19 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 22 2012, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have a problem because I never die. Who's the scrub now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    lol. I guess you didn't get my point. Overly defensive much?

    So many
    <i>I don't experience this, it is very rare,
    Therefore, you are whining.</i>

    Well done, gross inability to think outside your own experience - bravo. Simultaneously admit and deny the existence of vision blocking mechanics - very smooth.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1994537:date=Oct 21 2012, 12:40 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 21 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol. I guess you didn't get my point. Overly defensive much?

    So many
    <i>I don't experience this, it is very rare,
    Therefore, you are whining.</i>

    Well done, gross inability to think outside your own experience - bravo. Simultaneously admit and deny the existence of vision blocking mechanics - very smooth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Probably because, like Vladmir over there, vision obstruction has never caused my death. This thread is on a level of pointless whining that transcends all other whining. A lot of the attacks cited by the OP only block your vision for like .3 seconds. We aren't talking about something serious like BF3 flashlights, we are talking about screenshots that someone had to time perfectly with another player to get.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    The point of the thread was to emphasise the shear amount of abilities that effect marine vision. The whining is in your head.
    Timing perfectly is a good joke though. Hohoho.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1994542:date=Oct 22 2012, 04:56 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 22 2012, 04:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Probably because, like Vladmir over there, vision obstruction has never caused my death. This thread is on a level of pointless whining that transcends all other whining. A lot of the attacks cited by the OP only block your vision for like .3 seconds. We aren't talking about something serious like BF3 flashlights, we are talking about screenshots that someone had to time perfectly with another player to get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    And how do you feel about welders, drifters, and infestation spikes? Oh thats right, you've probably never died as a result of one before. Your experience really is pretty iron solid reference isnt it.

    0.3 seconds? come off it.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1994545:date=Oct 21 2012, 01:17 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 21 2012, 01:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And how do you feel about welders, drifters, and infestation spikes? Oh thats right, you've probably never died as a result of one before. Your experience really is pretty iron solid reference isnt it.

    0.3 seconds? come off it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I had no idea welders, drifers, and infestation spikes obscured vision.
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    edited October 2012
    on one end, you have people who genuinely are upset about something because their skill has reached a point where a certain element is a large factor or deciding element in equally skilled or close battles between players. FPS is probably the best example of this. 40-50 is playable for some people, but if you're trying to land bites on a jetpack shotgun with decent aim, it's <i>extremely</i> frustrating not to play at capped out FPS as you watch jetpacks just warp around.

    on the other hand, you have players whose skill has not reached that point (so affectionately referred to as scrubs), so those issues aren't quite as significant to them. who is concerned about motion tracking circles cluttering your screen when the skulk is warping around, you have 20 FPS, and your aim isn't special to begin with?

    most of the people posting (not just in this thread, but on forums) are in the second group of people

    edit: not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, just saying each party can't speak for each other.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Yup, who cares if you've got mud all over your face if you can't aim in the first place?

    This is a refined qualm for the gentry of natural selection who desire crêpes, not pancakes. Now if you scrubs would kindly vacate the premises and allow the gentlemen to converse properly, thank you.
  • NolSinklerNolSinkler On the Clorf Join Date: 2004-02-15 Member: 26560Members, Constellation
    Why do threads on this forum devolve into people insulting one another and pointing out that the other person surely must be bad at NS2 for having said X?
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    I'm not insulting anyone, just saying it's really difficult for each side to see the other viewpoint
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1994565:date=Oct 21 2012, 08:55 PM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Oct 21 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do threads on this forum devolve into people insulting one another and pointing out that the other person surely must be bad at NS2 for having said X?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->All it takes is one person to cross the line and others will respond in kind (and call it justified, no less).

    <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Behave, people.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
  • Apollonius999Apollonius999 Join Date: 2009-09-09 Member: 68725Members
    With effects like that there might as well be some soft of noise emitter as well. Then you can full on call me Hellen Keller. I'll play like a beast.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Well, you can't mute the deafening music.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1994574:date=Oct 22 2012, 07:30 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Oct 22 2012, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, you can't mute the deafening music.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    yea, the music really breaks the immersion for me. I mean, its so unrealistic for music to play when you are shooting something. I'd rather it spurt blood all over my eyeballs so i'd feel like i was a real soldier.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    Realism in video games. Lol.

    Realism in NS2. Lol more.

    I think some insane gore mod with blood spurting all over the walls and everywhere would be absolutely awesome though... the "this is Spartaaaa" mod?
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1994698:date=Oct 21 2012, 11:23 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 21 2012, 11:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Realism in video games. Lol.

    Realism in NS2. Lol more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Its called immersion, its fun.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    edited October 2012
    <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>*NUKED*</b> Be polite. -Talesin<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    From what I saw in the tournament this weekend, not a single vision-obscuring ability was used. Not once, not even spores which is definitely the worst one of them all - at least in Hugh's cast.

    I think there was gorge spit, but I don't think it actually causes a blinding effect right now (at least it doesn't on my game - is this a bug or has it been removed?).

    So, seeing as these abilities are seemingly considered worthless in comp. games, why should comp players even care?
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1994715:date=Oct 22 2012, 12:00 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 22 2012, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I saw in the tournament this weekend, not a single vision-obscuring ability was used. Not once, not even spores which is definitely the worst one of them all - at least in Hugh's cast.

    I think there was gorge spit, but I don't think it actually causes a blinding effect right now (at least it doesn't on my game - is this a bug or has it been removed?).

    So, seeing as these abilities are seemingly considered worthless in comp. games, why should comp players even care?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Mostly because it's 6v6. In 20-24 player pubs attacks like Spores become extremely important.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1994715:date=Oct 22 2012, 03:00 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 22 2012, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I saw in the tournament this weekend, not a single vision-obscuring ability was used. Not once, not even spores which is definitely the worst one of them all - at least in Hugh's cast.

    I think there was gorge spit, but I don't think it actually causes a blinding effect right now (at least it doesn't on my game - is this a bug or has it been removed?).

    So, seeing as these abilities are seemingly considered worthless in comp. games, why should comp players even care?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Cyst explosion is mind boggling anooying and so strong when paired with strong teamwork + coordination. Just cause you didn't see it, doesn't mean its stupid.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    I don't think I saw any cyst explosions on Hugh's cast. If they're so good, why aren't alien commanders using them in comp. games?

    In fact, why aren't we seeing shade hive hardly ever in comp. games? Even in pub games when I go shade first or second, there's at least one person whining about it. If these abilities are so annoying that they destroy the ability of marines to shoot accurately, and generally make aliens win big time, it's a little weird that they're not extremely popular, don't you think?
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1994720:date=Oct 22 2012, 03:09 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 22 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I saw any cyst explosions on Hugh's cast. If they're so good, why aren't alien commanders using them in comp. games?

    In fact, why aren't we seeing shade hive hardly ever in comp. games? Even in pub games when I go shade first or second, there's at least one person whining about it. If these abilities are so annoying that they destroy the ability of marines to shoot accurately, and generally make aliens win big time, it's a little weird that they're not extremely popular, don't you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Go watch starcraft 2 streams. Alot of things don't get used untill a race is forced to experiment to win / had enough time to evolve (see warp prism for white-ra vs. MC (think it was MC) in the Korea vs. the world showmatch in korea)

    I have an exact idea of how I would use cysts.

    Place 2 cysts around each rt, time it with my skulks oh when they run in.
    1. Blow first cyst up (obscure a large amount of their vision)
    2. Skulks run in
    3. Blow second cyst up if required

    You cannot tell me that does not provide a massive advantage to aliens. Whether its used or not in comp games is irrelevant, its only a matter of time.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    That's interesting... so teams like Nexzil, Inversion, Archaea, Exertus, etc. have just not caught onto the idea that cyst bursting is OP.

    Um, okay. Maybe they'll L2P someday with this uber strat...

    /sarcasm off & somewhat off-topic: I think actually cyst bursting is pretty damn useless. The idea is there, but it doesn't nearly obscure vision for long enough to actually make it useful, and most significantly, it slides down the marine view, which makes the crosshair area (which is the most important) obscured for only a very small fraction of a second. I've mentioned before in other threads that infestation in the game is kind of meaningless as a result of that.

    Nobody right now actually uses infestation itself to "claim" an area of the map, and it's just ignored. I think marines get a speed nerf when on it, but it's not nearly enough to justify cysting somewhere where you don't intend to place structures. That's also what makes flamethrowers kind of not as useful as they could be, as an anti-infestation weapon. They have interesting tactical use sapping energy, but I just had to laugh when someone was actually trying to use one in that 50-minute stalemate between Inversion and Exertus this weekend.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1994708:date=Oct 22 2012, 02:37 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Oct 22 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->May as well make a good written post in the Idea & Suggestion forums or email the dev's directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I should follow my own advice
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
  • TalesinTalesin Our own little well of hate Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1994384:date=Oct 21 2012, 02:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 21 2012, 02:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, a well written post from the pro-visual blocking side - I would agree that the arguement makes sense but only in terms of spit and i don't think this ability is the center of contention here. It is only one in an arsenal of visual, audio, movement blocking abilities aliens have, one of the mildest at that. You're not being very fair by extrapolating solely from spit (the best example, not the median) that anyone who complains is a retarded rambo who only relies on twitch... =/.

    Its silly to expect your team-mates to be able to see through spores, cyst ruptures, jetpack smoke, flamethrower smoke, explosions, biles, vortexes etc. (notice how many there are besides spit) any better than you can. These are AOE effects. What additional "skill" counters this? When you have an absence of information, can you really say that it takes more <b>skill</b> to take a frag, or is it actually more <b>luck</b>? Do you think its good design to require so called <b>"additional skill"</b> in order to overcome <b>friendly applied vision blocking</b> such as jetpack/flame smoke? Are these friendly applied effects really balance mechanisms or badly implemented 'immersion' tools?

    It's fine that people enjoy the immersion. I don't think anyone here on the anti vision blocking side is arguing simply to take away your enjoyment. While you all demand that your immersive experience be recognised, also recognise that others don't enjoy such (or rather enjoy the player vs player aspect more than immersion).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Spit was primarily used as an example. The other abilities can equally be applied as tactical choices (spores for example being a very notable AOE effect with a strategic element of deployment to provide mobile cover as well as damage-dealing).
    Cyst ruptures? Would you rather have cyst ruptures... or the ability to drop medpacks? Just saying, the momentary reduction in vision (and not a very notable one) is a severely less-powerful ability than to spam resources and keep a unit alive against all odds. And that's not factoring in the nano-shield ability which gives a DIRECT damage reduction with NO skill needed.
    Jetpack smoke? Really. Seriously? For one, it's a momentary effect at best, and more of atmospheric. For two, if you are affected by it, you have a teammate enjoying a very distinct advantage at the moment. Some very minor visual interference is not exactly world-ending, and expecting the JPs to work like the old Tribes and UT jetpacks is just a bit maddening. Likewise with flamethrowers. You deal with it as a side-effect of your team's weapon loadout. If you are in a competitive match, the SLIGHT occlusion is a tradeoff for the rather overpowered damage and energy-killing power it presents (after all, we're talking about 'competitive' play here, right?).
    Bile bomb is relatively useless in a combat situation for the most part; turning it into a visual harassment ability adds utility and a support characteristic otherwise lacking. Again, a risky way to provide the Gorge a real combat support role other than healspray spamming.

    I'm saying that if you are skillful, you will still be able to track and predict enemy movements and land a significant number of hits through the goo/smoke. That semi-blind/obscured shots are significantly more skillful than the mindless twitch-shooting that self-proclaimed 'competitive' players hold as the pinnacle of 'skill', to the exclusion of all else.


    <!--quoteo(post=1994510:date=Oct 21 2012, 10:47 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Oct 21 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flayra and co, perhaps you better make a mod for the 'skilled' players, the mod will only consist on neutral coloured walls and floors, no props or decorations and few rooms with passageways but all open doors. The characters should be merely human sized boxes and there must be no HUD , just a precise dot aiming reticle.... remove the various weapons and abilities and subsitute a slow shooting single shot kill hitscan weapon with no muzzle flash.
    Audio must be limited to UT2KI announcer and simple laser sounds and a short Wilheim scream when a player dies... no music.

    The rest of us noobs will play NS2 with goo up to the eyeballs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    As noted, they've already made one. It's called Shootmania. Go look at it or watch a streamed session. It's quite popular with the 'competitive' set because it caters to their limited skillset and does not provide any challenges that said skillset does not cover.

    <!--quoteo(post=1994564:date=Oct 21 2012, 01:53 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Oct 21 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994564"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup, who cares if you've got mud all over your face if you can't aim in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Can you really aim in the first place if a minor obstruction completely derails your 'skill'?



    Really, it's arguments like this thread that are starting to make the word 'competitive' an <i>insult</i>, rather than something to which to aspire.
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